Elk Hoof Disease Public Meeting - Wed, May 21st 1-4PM - Please Attend!!

[kentrek]

This is all very interesting.  Can anyone shed any light on why herbicides are potentially having a larger impact on elk in Southwest Washington state than on other timberlands up and down the west coast?  Why aren't we seeing these problems in elk where the habitat is the same and timber management practices are the same?

Give it a few more years....but do we wana wait that long before we act ?? Look how far its spread in the last few years....

[pianoman9701]

Actually, there are two distinct areas where the disease is spreading - the St. Helens herd and the Willapa Hills herd. Also, as I understand it, the amount of spraying and the combinations of different chemicals being used have a lot to do with it and are indeed different from other areas in the state. In some cases, twice the amount of spraying is being done than in other areas. In addition, the disease is communicable. So, even if the spraying is similar in other areas doesn't mean that the same diseases will show up and be passed. The results of a diminished immune system could manifest itself in deformed antler growth, lowered birth rates, and many other different ways. AND, this isn't to say the the disease won't pop up elsewhere in the future. The leptospira bacteria lives in wet areas and is all around us here in SW WA. Once it shows up, it spreads.

[whacker1]

tag

[IBspoiled]

Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats.  I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.     

[pianoman9701]

Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats.  I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.   

Your input at these meetings would be extremely valuable. And, I had no idea there was a wild horse herd around Silver Lake. It would be interesting to find out the effect on them. Thanks!

[IBspoiled]

The WDFW seems single minded when it comes to the cause of the hoof issues.  Despite reports in a couple of studies, they still made contrary claims including stating that the elk in the effected areas maintain an average and healthy body mass. 


I'm assuming they are NOT looking at the same elk that we are if they think that elk in these areas are maintaining a healthy body mass.  Somewhere I have a picture from a game camera of one elk that is so skin and bones and having trouble standing that it is sickening.  I will try and find it.  I posted it on the WDFW hoof rot site last year.  Also, I would like to say that when we moved here in 07 we would see large herds move through our property, it was nothing to see 20-25 elk almost daily.  Having to fix fences was almost a daily chore.  Since they implemented all the extra cow seasons around here, we can hardly find an elk.  We hiked during the snow this year and finally found elk tracks on our 3rd day out.  A herd of about 6 and not one of the tracks was without blood in it.  I believe part of the reasoning behind the permits this year to hunt on the St. Helens tree farm is that Weyerhaeser wants to keep hunters out and not have to quit using their herbicides/pesticides because it would severely cut into their profits.  If less people are hunting there are less people that will see the problem of the elk herds and it will just go away. 

[JLS]

Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats.  I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.   

Do your animals suffer from hoof rot or laminitis?  Do you give them selenium injections and/or supplement them with a trace mineral block?

[pianoman9701]

The WDFW seems single minded when it comes to the cause of the hoof issues.  Despite reports in a couple of studies, they still made contrary claims including stating that the elk in the effected areas maintain an average and healthy body mass. 


I'm assuming they are NOT looking at the same elk that we are if they think that elk in these areas are maintaining a healthy body mass.  Somewhere I have a picture from a game camera of one elk that is so skin and bones and having trouble standing that it is sickening.  I will try and find it.  I posted it on the WDFW hoof rot site last year.  Also, I would like to say that when we moved here in 07 we would see large herds move through our property, it was nothing to see 20-25 elk almost daily.  Having to fix fences was almost a daily chore.  Since they implemented all the extra cow seasons around here, we can hardly find an elk.  We hiked during the snow this year and finally found elk tracks on our 3rd day out.  A herd of about 6 and not one of the tracks was without blood in it.  I believe part of the reasoning behind the permits this year to hunt on the St. Helens tree farm is that Weyerhaeser wants to keep hunters out and not have to quit using their herbicides/pesticides because it would severely cut into their profits.  If less people are hunting there are less people that will see the problem of the elk herds and it will just go away.

This WDFW position was actually challenged by one of the working group members yesterday. The biologist did a bit of a song and dance afterwards and tried to explain their position. It's hard to present facts that back up lies. You just end up sounding like a liar.

[JLS]

Single mindedness appears to be running both ways here.  There may be many correlations here with herbicides and hoof disease.  However, that does not mean there is a causative relationship.  All anyone is doing right now is hypothesizing and to insinuate that any hypothesis is correct based on the anecdotal observations is meaningless.

[pianoman9701]

So what do you suggest, JLS? Should we ignore it and the science that points to herbicides as a probable cause? I'd be all for Weyerhauser stepping up and voluntarily fencing off a portion of their land to do a study, but somehow, they haven't showed their concern. There is a great deal of evidence that recognized experts are bringing forward. The largest elk herd in the state is in trouble. I'd like to hear your ideas on what we should do, if anything.

[IBspoiled]

Being a family that lives adjacent to Weyerhaeuser and having spent many hours riding our horses on their land, I would like to ad to the fact of Krystal Davies report that since moving here in 07 that we have constantly been in a battle with hoof rot in our horses and goats.  I would also ad that it would be very interesting to do research on the Silver Lake wild horse herd and see if they are showing signs as well, as they live and eat only from the land that Weyerhaeuser sprays heavily.   

Do your animals suffer from hoof rot or laminitis?  Do you give them selenium injections and/or supplement them with a trace mineral block?

Our horses and goats have hoof rot, we treat it with http://www.spurrsbigfix.com/ It seems to keep it manageable.  Yes we do supplement them with selenium trace mineral blocks. 

[Practical Approach]

The WDFW seems single minded when it comes to the cause of the hoof issues.  Despite reports in a couple of studies, they still made contrary claims including stating that the elk in the effected areas maintain an average and healthy body mass. 


I'm assuming they are NOT looking at the same elk that we are if they think that elk in these areas are maintaining a healthy body mass.  Somewhere I have a picture from a game camera of one elk that is so skin and bones and having trouble standing that it is sickening.  I will try and find it.  I posted it on the WDFW hoof rot site last year.  Also, I would like to say that when we moved here in 07 we would see large herds move through our property, it was nothing to see 20-25 elk almost daily.  Having to fix fences was almost a daily chore.  Since they implemented all the extra cow seasons around here, we can hardly find an elk.  We hiked during the snow this year and finally found elk tracks on our 3rd day out.  A herd of about 6 and not one of the tracks was without blood in it.  I believe part of the reasoning behind the permits this year to hunt on the St. Helens tree farm is that Weyerhaeser wants to keep hunters out and not have to quit using their herbicides/pesticides because it would severely cut into their profits.  If less people are hunting there are less people that will see the problem of the elk herds and it will just go away.

This WDFW position was actually challenged by one of the working group members yesterday. The biologist did a bit of a song and dance afterwards and tried to explain their position. It's hard to present facts that back up lies. You just end up sounding like a liar.

Could you elaborate on the lies, the challenged position, etc.

[Tbar]

Single mindedness appears to be running both ways here.  There may be many correlations here with herbicides and hoof disease.  However, that does not mean there is a causative relationship.  All anyone is doing right now is hypothesizing and to insinuate that any hypothesis is correct based on the anecdotal observations is meaningless.

I have yet to see any "scientific" proof from either side of the aisle.  I am not one to drink the Kool-aid from anybody but if forced I'd rather it was served by Jonker and Mansfield than Mora and Gosch.
I know we have a common goal but too many "hot leads" often are a detriment to finding a cause and or solution.   

[JLS]

So what do you suggest, JLS? Should we ignore it and the science that points to herbicides as a probable cause? I'd be all for Weyerhauser stepping up and voluntarily fencing off a portion of their land to do a study, but somehow, they haven't showed their concern. There is a great deal of evidence that recognized experts are bringing forward. The largest elk herd in the state is in trouble. I'd like to hear your ideas on what we should do, if anything.

Where did I say we should ignore it?  Drama much?

My point is that without controlled experiments, all anyone is doing is hypothesizing.  We have a farrier hypothesizing that herbicides are leading to laminitis (which can be distinctly different than hoof rot).  We have Dr. Mora who is hypothesizing that it is leptospirosis (which can be distinctly different than laminitis).  We have an area that has severe trace mineral deficiencies.

Is the laminitis potentially causing the poor body condition because of ambulatory difficulties?

Is the poor body condition causing the laminitis because of nutritional deficiencies?

Is laminitis and poor body condition a result of herbicides?

Is laminitis and poor body condition caused by trace mineral deficiencies?

Is it even true laminitis, or is it an infectious hoof disease that is leading to laminitis because of tissue necrosis?

I could go on with a list of questions here.  As much as anyone likes to jump on the most popular hypothesis and say "ah ha, that's it!", there are a number of questions that can be asked that would refute or dispell that hypothesis.  It's been asked numerous times, if it's herbicides, why doesn't it manifest itself in other geographical areas?

I am not saying any one hypothesis is correct or incorrect.  All I'm saying is that as much as you folks criticize the working group for being single minded in their approach, you're likely doing the same.  There were three WSU veterinarians involved in the most recent hoof disease research.  I think if it was as simple as laminitis associated with herbicides, they would be pretty dialed in on it right now.  That is strictly my opinion.

No one needs Weyerhauser's cooperation.  All of the experimental conditions can be created without them.

[Practical Approach]

 

You really can't find the working group at fault.  The public working group meetings really don't allow for any constructive input.  The agenda is pre determined by WDFW.  If you noticed from yesterdays meeting that the working group sat there right along with the public and watched a slide show that laid out what WDFW was going to do.  Any questions or comments from the work group were almost view as an interruption.  If the work group were a true work group, they would be allowed to participate than give thumbs up or down to what the state is selling.