Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2014, 02:02:32 PM
Thanks WDFW!
Post by: Huntboy on October 10, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
Good luck to you 1000 lucky doe tag holders, this will be a season you will never be able to forget. :twocents:
Thanks WDFW!
:yeah:
Post by: bigmacc on October 10, 2014, 02:36:11 PM
Good luck to you 1000 lucky doe tag holders, this will be a season you will never be able to forget. :twocents:
Thanks WDFW!
I 100 percent get what your saying phool and I 100 percent agree :tup: :(
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2014, 02:40:01 PM
Post by: et1702 on October 10, 2014, 02:56:09 PM
Personally, I don't think as many people are going to use the extra tags. I drew one during the second chance drawing and won't be going out.
ET
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on October 10, 2014, 03:21:37 PM
Post by: Tbar on October 10, 2014, 03:23:36 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2014, 03:31:18 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2014, 03:58:34 PM
We have 3 of the doe tags and are staying on the Westside. My daughter was so looking forward to this hunt prior to the fires and the redraw. It was going to be a chance to harvest some good eating whitetails but now are staying home hunting local.
No issues with targetting whitetails, go get your daughter one, or two or three. :tup:
Post by: buckfvr on October 10, 2014, 04:35:54 PM
Post by: Bigshooter on October 10, 2014, 04:52:52 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2014, 05:00:44 PM
Quote
The guys that are complaining about giving out tags now are the same guys that would be complaining this winter that WDFW should have given out tags if there is a bad winter kill.
Nope
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2014, 05:10:25 PM
QuoteThe guys that are complaining about giving out tags now are the same guys that would be complaining this winter that WDFW should have given out tags if there is a bad winter kill.
Nope
+1
Post by: Badhabit on October 10, 2014, 05:53:30 PM
QuoteThe guys that are complaining about giving out tags now are the same guys that would be complaining this winter that WDFW should have given out tags if there is a bad winter kill.
Nope
+1
+2
Post by: Duckslayer89 on October 10, 2014, 06:50:01 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 10, 2014, 10:29:09 PM
QuoteThe guys that are complaining about giving out tags now are the same guys that would be complaining this winter that WDFW should have given out tags if there is a bad winter kill.
Nope
+1
+100. No reason wdfw couldn't issue tags on a as needed basis if a problem presents itself. Not rocket science or a biology degree needed there.
Post by: nw_bowhunter on October 11, 2014, 06:25:03 AM
Post by: grundy53 on October 11, 2014, 08:23:30 AM
:yeah:Good luck to you 1000 lucky doe tag holders, this will be a season you will never be able to forget. :twocents:
Thanks WDFW!
I 100 percent get what your saying phool and I 100 percent agree :tup: :(
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 11, 2014, 08:24:03 AM
Post by: bradslam on October 11, 2014, 09:35:55 AM
Post by: snowpack on October 11, 2014, 09:41:32 AM
Maybe I don't understand, but I thought they were issuing the tags because the fires burned up the habitat and they're needing to reduce the herd so they don't starve to death. Is that not true?yes, true...but the way I read it the concerns are specific. Mule deer in that area have been declining. Whitetails have been moving in and competing with them. The guys opposed to this are opposed to further decline in muleys. But fine with removing the whitetails. Then the overall herd size might match the food left after the fires and muleys will at least be stable or possibly rebound. Sounds like mules might take a hit in the doe department...where they don't need it (so whether intentional or not--further decline the muleys). Then there is the issue of what people normally look for out there--"the big fat healthy doe" and not the smaller does. The big does might be more likely to survive a hard winter (in whitetail land generally the bigger older deer survive better in the upper Midwest winters). So the does left over might be the smaller ones that killed in the winter anyways. I guess worse case scenario, all the does that get shot are big healthy mule deer that would likely make it through a bad winter; and then a bad winter strikes and kills off the less prepared mule deer does and the following season you have a greater explosion of whiteys and more decline of muleys.
Post by: steen on October 11, 2014, 12:10:54 PM
Post by: kramman on October 11, 2014, 12:35:44 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 11, 2014, 12:50:07 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2014, 06:51:35 PM
Quote
Basic wildlife biology.
Yep, shoot a doe in the head and she wont have any more babies.
There are possibly better options pianoman like feeding. And "why did the chicken cross the road" to get to the other side. The range on the other side has only a tiny portion of it being utilized because of the decreased herd.
Questions about timing of the hunt etc. are also concerning.
Cheapest solution.....kill em all.
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 11, 2014, 07:43:02 PM
I'm thinking there are more whitetail tags than muledeer tags. Maybe the kids have the muledeer tags, mine is a whitetail. I don't have a problem shooting a whitetail doe!
The email I got from wdfw did not specify one specific species of deer as far as the tag. It just says second deer tag to harvest a doe. Where did you find info that says the tags are for whitetail or mule deer specifically? Did you apply for a whitetail only second deer tag on the original special permit application in one of three units this all pertains to? Is there even a whitey only permit in those units?
I'm a disabled hunter and have been offered one of these doe permits after not being selected on my earlier app. I have already harvested a nice whitey doe during regular archery season and there is no better eating deer out there. I plan on using my second tag only to harvest another whitey for the freezer, I will not be taking any mule deer. I spend a lot of time in the methow and have many friends that are long time residents there so getting on the whiteys is not a problem and they are far superior table fair than the muleys :EAT:
Post by: GoldenRing270 on October 11, 2014, 07:45:02 PM
These fires were naturally caused and this valley has burned since before humans arrived and it will do so again after we are gone. The deer in this valley have had to deal with loss of habitat due to wildfires many times. I say let natural selection run its course. If deer starve to death this winter the strong will survive and it will leave behind better genetics for the next big fire in the valley. In reality though I believe that the migrating mule deer #'s in the methow are far below carrying capacity. FS Roads, houses on every hilltop, snowmobiles, cross country skiers, predators (including humans) among many other obstacles have caused the slow decline in deer #s. Hopefully since most of the winter range in the Alta unit and the Gardener unit didn't burn the deer will move to find food wherever it is available. Also who knows what kind of winters we will get in the next couple years. If the deer are starving and causing depredation issues then issue the tags as needed. These actions just seem impulsive and premature.
If you drew this tag PLEASE don't shoot a mule deer doe. Do the herd a great big favor and shoot a whitetail.
Post by: ribka on October 11, 2014, 07:56:16 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2014, 08:19:30 PM
Post by: Team Baze on October 11, 2014, 08:26:57 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2014, 08:30:28 PM
I'm just curious how many of these people that are complaining have applied and have been drawn and filled cow tags? I know I'll be taking my son in November to fill his doe tags.
:chuckle: Apples and oranges Baze........and I've never applied for a cow tag! ;)
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2014, 08:46:08 PM
Quote
I'm just curious how many of these people that are complaining have applied and have been drawn and filled cow tags?
and if you care to know, never, though I am not against antlerless harvest in other situations
Post by: MtnMuley on October 11, 2014, 09:28:47 PM
They really issued 1000 doe tags? Where did you see the exact number? Pretty shameful by wdfg if that's the case and the success rates are high the deer herd will be in major decline for years and doubtful it will ever recover. They might as well just close the areas affected down for no hunting! If they want to reduce some deer should have been done for youths, disabled hunters, and very limited tags. Or just feed the deer this year.
They issued 1200 through out the 3 gmu' s. That was straight out of Fitkin and Monda' s mouths at a recent meeting.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on October 11, 2014, 09:33:59 PM
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 11, 2014, 09:57:11 PM
I'd bet at least 30 per cent of hunters are unable to distinguish a mule doe from a wt doe in the field when a shot opportunity arises
If that be the case said person shouldn't even be in the field calling them self a hunter. There are many distinct very noticeable, unmistakable differences between the two species :twocents:
Post by: Romulus1297 on October 11, 2014, 10:05:56 PM
I'd bet at least 30 per cent of hunters are unable to distinguish a mule doe from a wt doe in the field when a shot opportunity arisesThat whitetail doe I saw in 25 Mile creek this morning was the first deer I saw :yike:
Post by: muleracks on October 11, 2014, 10:12:09 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2014, 09:56:28 AM
What people don't think about is a lot of people in positions to make the rules don't really want us hunters out hunting anyways. Thry just want the woods to be a place for people to visit I guess or leave alone all together. Hence reintroduction of wolves and the over abundance of antlerless tags, also shortened seasons. Make the hunting suck and not so many hunters anymore. Also the price of tags and the new permit program, it says right on the website it was designed to increase profits which they call revenue. They almost treat the environment like a science experiment even though guys who have hunted there for 30 years and notice a giant decline in deer numbers and hunt quality say otherwise. It's like the wolves helping the Beavers and the trout, Ya right....Just my 2cents...
Each Female Killed Represents Tenfold Loss
When Commissioners and sportsmen groups repeat the biologists’ false claim that this group or that group “won’t kill enough female mule deer to impact the population,” they support the ongoing destruction of our mule deer. Every female that is killed now when populations are depleted represents at least a tenfold loss in harvest opportunity during the next decade.
http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2023%20April%202007%20SE%20Idaho%20Mule%20Deer%20MGMT.pdf (http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2023%20April%202007%20SE%20Idaho%20Mule%20Deer%20MGMT.pdf)
Woodworth joined a list of Idaho F&G Directorswho have been forced to resign because they, and/or their employees whose actions they are responsible for, ignored their legal mandate to preserve, protect, perpetuate and manage Idaho wildlife. In every instance, their willingness to kill female breeding stock – rather than feed to help them survive a crisis – was the catalyst that caused outraged citizens to demand they be replaced.
http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2046%20Sept-Dec%202011.pdf (http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2046%20Sept-Dec%202011.pdf)
I applaud those hunters who are refusing to help slaughter what's left of the Methow deer herd, probably the reason for WDFW upping the doe tags from 750 to 1200.
Funny how folks seem to think the whitetails are do well, when the wolves have been hammering them also, I guess the impact isn't as easy to identify as with the mule deer.
Post by: buckfvr on October 12, 2014, 10:21:53 AM
Maybe I don't understand, but I thought they were issuing the tags because the fires burned up the habitat and they're needing to reduce the herd so they don't starve to death. Is that not true?yes, true...but the way I read it the concerns are specific. Mule deer in that area have been declining. Whitetails have been moving in and competing with them. The guys opposed to this are opposed to further decline in muleys. But fine with removing the whitetails. Then the overall herd size might match the food left after the fires and muleys will at least be stable or possibly rebound. Sounds like mules might take a hit in the doe department...where they don't need it (so whether intentional or not--further decline the muleys). Then there is the issue of what people normally look for out there--"the big fat healthy doe" and not the smaller does. The big does might be more likely to survive a hard winter (in whitetail land generally the bigger older deer survive better in the upper Midwest winters). So the does left over might be the smaller ones that killed in the winter anyways. I guess worse case scenario, all the does that get shot are big healthy mule deer that would likely make it through a bad winter; and then a bad winter strikes and kills off the less prepared mule deer does and the following season you have a greater explosion of whiteys and more decline of muleys.
After bad winters in 2007 and 2008, here locally, we are still waiting for the whitetail explosion...........doesnt happen that way. If winter kills mulies, it also kills whitetail.......does and bucks.
The cheap wolf lovin leadership at wdfw needs to do the right thing for once, and feed the dang deer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: X-Force on October 12, 2014, 10:27:21 AM
I'm thinking there are more whitetail tags than muledeer tags. Maybe the kids have the muledeer tags, mine is a whitetail. I don't have a problem shooting a whitetail doe!
The email I got from wdfw did not specify one specific species of deer as far as the tag. It just says second deer tag to harvest a doe.
the original tag; youth antlerless, disabled antlerless, second deer whitetail antlerless specify which tag you drew. the email from WDFW just stated that they are all second deer tags now if the hunter wishes
Post by: Griz231 on October 13, 2014, 07:49:36 AM
Anyone have a couple pesky fat does laying around eating all the feed for those skinny mule deer? :chuckle:
Gonna hit the normal low spots by our place in Methow but I haven't had time to go survey how much burned in the hills so not sure what to expect.
Post by: Eagle_view on October 13, 2014, 09:25:10 AM
I lived 11 years in the Methow and have hunted more years than that there. The Mule deer herd has declined because of the development of housing in the winter range. Whitetail have always done better in closer proximity to suburban development than Mule deer.
We went over there and drove part of the burn area looking at what has burned. The valley floor was pretty much intact except for washout that closed the major access roads in places ie. SR20 over the Loop and SR153 between Carlton and Twisp and Benson Creek. The fires cover a majority of the Winter Range between Roger's Lake and Pateros on both sides of SR153 and East of Washington Pass. Rough description. It will take years for this area to recover and it will always be different from what it was. I will predict that even with the additional tags we will have the highest road kill years that has ever been seen up there. We will also issue many more orchard damage control kill permits than they ever has and we will still have a very high winter kill.
To have a healthy Mule Deer Herd you must reduce the population by 40% each year and have a buck to doe ratio of not more than 5 doe per buck. Washington has never done this and our herds have suffered because of it. Fawns are born in almost equal male and female ratios. We focus our hunting pressure on the bucks only and that forces some very wasteful reproduction. A doe will cycle in heat until bred or is too depleted by starvation to reproduce. Buck will try to breed as many as they can but hunting pressure forces the most mature and sought after bucks away from the does during the best breeding rut. This leaves a lot of breeding to be done by immature and unproven bucks. We see the results the following year with spotted fawns showing up late in the summer. Does that do not breed one year, develop fat around the ovaries that make it harder and harder for those does to conceive. The Ovaries are kept warmer than they should be for conception to occur.
During a hard winter the weakest animals die first. That means the vey young fawns are first to go, then the more recent bearing does because they are already depleted, then the very old deer with poor teeth, then the most active breeding bucks because they have stayed in breeding mode longer and have been unable to recover enough body fat to survive. What does survive are the non-reproducing does and middle aged bucks that stayed holed up during the hunting seasons. I have been enough winter kill areas and studied the results for many years here in Washington as well as Montana and Wyoming.
What we lose by hunting the way we do is the best reproductive stock that breeds and bear young at the correct times are able to recoup the stress of raising young and breeding and being able to have to browse needed to be healthy. We end up with putting all the pressure on 20% or less of the herd.
Deer must have brush to browse because they need the tannin in the bark to digest any food. I have seen alfalfa hay yards completely surrounded by winter killed deer because there is not enough tannin in the hay for them to digest it. They die of starvation with a full stomach.
If you want great hunting in this state we would have to re-educate ourselves and about what is really going on and why. Our hunting regs are unfortunately set by science that is controlled by politics.
This is JMHO
Have a great day
Post by: boneaddict on October 13, 2014, 10:19:21 AM
Also agree to the decline in the herd. It certainly isn't "all the houses on studhorse", per say, but I am sure that is contributing to it. Just check out the ranges that haven't been inundated with homes yet (though I agree, that's fewer and fewer acres every year). Unfortunately they are being hammered on so so many fronts. Make sure you include predators in here as well. Wolves and cats and coyotes will eat good this winter. Next year will be interesting. So, with habitat lost, predator management or the lack thereof, management being dictated by politics instead of grass roots biology, we now find ourselves in the mess we are in.
Post by: Eagle_view on October 13, 2014, 12:21:34 PM
I once flew the length of the Methow from Rogers Lake to Pateros right at the end of the fall migration and after we had a god fresh snow fall on the winter feed grounds. It was very interesting to see how much territory was lost at each residence by tracking the deer trails the split around each place. The area was generally larger if the house had what appeared(from trails in the snow) to be dogs that were loose around the area. As the stress for food increases the deer do work closer to every area that they found need to avoid early in the winter. The placement of the houses seems to affect winter forage as well with linking avoidance areas sometimes changing the migration entirely. Wolf Creek was such an area. Unfortunately we will see several years of population adjustment to the new conditions. and will perhaps see some area actually become better wintering grounds but will have to wait for the foliage to mature enough to provide not only food but thermal protection. I would hope that we could turn this disaster into something positive for the Mule Deer Herds and for Washington State.
Post by: boneaddict on October 13, 2014, 12:32:43 PM
Post by: h2ofowlr on October 13, 2014, 03:03:59 PM
Post by: GameHunter1959 on October 13, 2014, 03:41:12 PM
IMO- this is about generating money.
Post by: h2ofowlr on October 13, 2014, 03:50:58 PM
Post by: Little Dave on October 14, 2014, 11:41:42 PM
Post by: Eagle_view on October 15, 2014, 11:18:20 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 15, 2014, 11:49:41 AM
Post by: huntnphool on October 15, 2014, 01:45:05 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 15, 2014, 01:57:14 PM
I wonder how many more years WDFW will be able to claim, "for the amount of hunters that showed up the deer season was a great success".
Post by: boneaddict on October 15, 2014, 02:25:09 PM
Post by: wsmnut on October 15, 2014, 03:46:45 PM
Disgusted.
Wsmnut
Post by: huntnphool on October 15, 2014, 04:28:55 PM
We'll get the latest blast of propaganda courtesy of the Methow Valley News tomorrow. We'll hear how wonderful the opening weekend was and why we need to hurry up and kill the rest of the deer.
Disgusted.
Wsmnut
Well they only report what Fitkin is telling them.
Post by: wsmnut on October 15, 2014, 05:07:44 PM
We'll get the latest blast of propaganda courtesy of the Methow Valley News tomorrow. We'll hear how wonderful the opening weekend was and why we need to hurry up and kill the rest of the deer.
Disgusted.
Wsmnut
Well they only report what Fitkin is telling them.
I shouldn't try to type while my wife is talking! I meant to include Fitkin as the source of the propaganda. Thanks!
Wsmnut
Post by: boneaddict on October 15, 2014, 05:21:16 PM
Post by: mkcj on October 15, 2014, 06:17:53 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 15, 2014, 06:43:20 PM
Our neighbor took a drive over to the 224 Sat. and said cars and trucks were lined up from the gun range all the way up to O ‘Sullivan’s pond, I'm going to say there's not a doe left on that whole mountain now. :bash:Monday we hit the Pearrygin Lake range just to get the oil out, a couple guys asked us if we had doe tags too.
Post by: jason stevens on October 15, 2014, 07:15:39 PM
Post by: wsmnut on October 17, 2014, 06:56:25 PM
Nobody knew quite what to expect when the general modern firearms deer season opened in Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) Game Management Units last Saturday.
On the heels of the state’s worst wildfire – much of it concentrated in the greater Methow Valley – it was anybody’s guess as to how the nine-day season would flesh out, notwithstanding floodwater damage that served as the kicker for the area.
Opening weekend results, however, tell the story of hunters crossing paths with legal, three-point-or-better mule deer bucks in just about every corner of the country hereabouts.
While the WDFW check station located in the parking lot of the Winthrop Barn only documented four bucks as of early last Sunday morning, hunters were obviously finding their targets nonetheless.
By early morning on Tuesday (Oct. 14), Thomson’s Custom Meats in Twisp had taken in over 150 deer carcasses for storage or processing, said Seth Thomson, and the phone call and traffic volume seemed to indicate more were on the way.
Katie Russell and several helpers were up to their elbows in deer hides after opening weekend at Russell’s skinning station just north of the Twisp town limits.
“I took in about 35 hides so far,” Russell said Monday (Oct. 13). “Last year I had 45 by season’s end.”
Some interesting stories came in along with the deer racks. There was Bruce Hall of Anacortes, for instance, who took the time to click off a telephoto snapshot of his 4×5-point muley before trading camera for rifle and dropping the standing buck.
And it all happened quite by accident.
“I had forgotten to put on my hunter orange,” Hall discovered after he had hiked some distance in the Rendezvous area.
As he made his way back to camp to retrieve the mandatory garment, Hall spotted his trophy standing in cover.
“He thought he was hidden,” Hall surmised of the buck’s motionlessness that allowed Hall time to take his photo, grab his .7mm Weatherby rifle, take aim over a nearby stump and fill his tag.
Barb Haight from Concrete was hunting with husband Larry in the Chewuch area when she shot her 3×5-point with a 30.06.
James Alvard began hunting in the Benson Creek area in 1955, and in 1958 shot his biggest Methow buck in his near-81 years on the planet. Last Saturday he bagged his second-largest, a huge 6×4 with a 29-1/2-inch spread with one shot from his .270 Remington while the deer was “full-out running,” said Alvard’s wife, Dee. The nimrod turns 81 on Oct. 16.
Walt Micona of Bellingham has six years on Alvard, but that didn’t stop the 87-year-old from being the first in his four-man party to shoot his buck on the Loup Loup summit.
Micona was hunting with son Walt Jr. and the father-son team of Tim and Dustin Schindler from Arlington when Walt Sr. put one of his 30.06 reloads into his 3×3 at 250 yards.
“We saw four bucks in a bunch and he shot the largest,” Walt Jr. said.
Stories like those mix with comments concerning the heartbreaking vistas left in the wildfire’s wake.
“It was just so sad,” Dee Alvard said of the Benson Creek landscape she and James have frequented for some 34 years. “It’s an important vacation opening for us.”
When he wasn’t on the phone or unloading carcasses, Seth Thomson took a moment to describe the vast acreage he and his dad Sam, drove by back road on French Creek from Pateros to north of Methow before deer season opened.
“There’s a hunting ranch there, 15,000 acres,” Thomson said, “and in years past I would see 300-400 deer a day. We didn’t see one.”
Fire has now denuded much of that land, Thomson added, and left lots of dead deer as testament to its passing.
“That fire was moving at 50 miles an hour,” Thomson said of the inescapable flames.
John Lindsay, assistant manager of the Methow Wildlife Area in Winthrop, spent opening weekend scouting Aeneas Mountain in the Sinlahekin for late-season archery prospects.
“I saw mostly whitetails but lots of sage and ruffed grouse,” Lindsey said.
Alluding to speculation that there may be many cougars about, Lindsay mentioned that one of his hunting companions who joins in the scouting trips has taken three mountain lions in the past six years.
“I’ve only seen one in the wild,” Lindsay marveled, and pointed out that his profession puts him in the outdoors much of the time.
a
Fire area closures
Some fire area closures have been modified or lifted for portions of Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest lands within and adjacent to the Carlton Complex, Chiwaukum Complex, Duncan Fire and Mills Canyon Fire.
The only Carlton Complex closures remaining in place in the Methow Valley Ranger District are on roads No. 300 and 370 in Finley Canyon. The Duncan Fire area closure has been reduced to encompass the Entiat Valley Road north of Tommy Creek and the fire area east and north of the road. The closure still includes Shady Pass Road from the Entiat side to its intersection with Big Hill Road No. 112.
Mills Canyon Road No. 5200 was closed weekdays through Oct. 13 due to Burned Area Emergency Response operations occurring in the Mills Canyon Fire area. Chiwaukum Fire area closure has also been reduced to include Chiwaukum, Thomson, Painter, Battle Canyon, Hatchery, and Fall creeks.
Area closures due to the Hansel Creek and Shoofly fires on the Wenatchee River Ranger District remain unchanged.
Modern firearm general deer season for mule and white-tailed deer in the Game Management Units that comprise the Methow Valley ends Sunday (Oct. 19). Hunters are cautioned to check WDFW’s 2014 Big Game Hunting Seasons & Regulations pamphlet for specific details.
Post by: huntnphool on October 17, 2014, 07:02:22 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 17, 2014, 08:20:39 PM
Post by: Alchase on October 17, 2014, 08:34:32 PM
Opening day I hiked in to Lightning creek from 4320 road. Got to the hill between lightning and Blue Buck looked up and there were two wolves staring at me from about 200 yards. I shifted my rifle to take a picture and they took off over the hill as soon as my rifle moved. Seems they have been schooled.
After Sunday I was the only camper between the creeks and only a few were in Bear creek campground.
No where near the crowds others have been talking about.
I saw very few deer in pearygin and very little sign, though I spent more time in Gardner and Chewuch. I still for the life of me can not figure out why they back burned the whole area between Bear and Pearygen creeks?
Saw four legal shooter bucks in town, lol
Post by: Alchase on October 17, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
It was nice to see "some" green coming through the sterilized landscape though.
Still really hard to see so much land, with so many memories.
It hit hard the perspective that I am seeing it as a long time visitorand had strong feelings, I could not imagine what the residents must feel like.
Post by: wsmnut on October 17, 2014, 08:54:41 PM
Well sounds like it's all rainbows and butterflies this season, guess the extra late buck and doe tags are justified then, boy were some of us wrong!
I suspect there will be more rainbows and butterflies when Fitkin gets to give his post season report.
All of us feeling nauseous weren't wrong.
Any bets on how many rainbows will be attached to the 2015 special permits?
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2014, 06:38:33 AM
Post by: Griz231 on October 18, 2014, 06:51:43 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 18, 2014, 08:54:13 AM
Alchase- did you notice if Beaver Creek Campground burned. That has been an established camp/town for decades during hunting season. I wasn't sure where the fire cut through there. I just finally figured out the significance of them calling them the lookout pack. Its not the mountain that they were on, but that you can lookout anywhere in the Methow Valley and see one.
E-mail from a friend October 10-2014:
Wolves hazing flaggers
Dale C. said he saw spot lites all around his place on the loup a couple nights ago. Went out and ask what was going on. It seems a cougar and some wolves have been coming in close to those flaggers late at night scoping them out. They are trying to spook them off.
Must be the lookout pack, Lol
Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Funny how WDFW doesn't mention these sort of incidences on their dangerous animal reports. WDFW must go dark on these issues, except for flashlights of course.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 18, 2014, 09:21:11 AM
Can anyone clarify this? Heard that if you drew second deer permit choice 1330 for whitetail antler less that the Wdfw is allowing you to shoot any doe. True or false?
Post #93 on this thread. http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,161313.25.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,161313.25.html)
I just got off the phone with WDFW (360-902-2515). The "antlerless whitetail only" special permits are actually good for either antlerless whitetail or mule deer. The WDFW said that this is clearly stated in the WAC that authorized the change. This was not communicated in the email sent out to the permit recipients.
Post by: wolfbait on October 18, 2014, 11:08:14 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 18, 2014, 11:29:56 AM
John Lindsay, assistant manager of the Methow Wildlife Area in Winthrop, spent opening weekend scouting Aeneas Mountain in the Sinlahekin for late-season archery prospects.
“I saw mostly whitetails but lots of sage and ruffed grouse,” Lindsey said.
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 18, 2014, 11:37:56 AM
Post by: Alchase on October 18, 2014, 02:43:02 PM
Alchase- did you notice if Beaver Creek Campground burned. That has been an established camp/town for decades during hunting season. I wasn't sure where the fire cut through there. I just finally figured out the significance of them calling them the lookout pack. Its not the mountain that they were on, but that you can lookout anywhere in the Methow Valley and see one.Bone, which Beaver Creek campground are you referring to ?
I have heard the campground where upper beaver creek and the 4235 road meet called Beaver Creek. Those up near Volsted were burnt but looked fine and had about half the normal crowd. I usually camp at Bear creek "east side of road" but I heard it was burned up so I relocated back to the flat between Bear and Pearygin. After setting up my camp I drove by bear creek east, and people were camping there, lol
There were a few up towards Lood Loop that are gone as well. Weird part was a few people were camping in the desolation by cougar flat and Cambel lake. That are looked sterilized by fire. I saw very littl sign in the cougar flats burn at all. Contrast that with the burn that went up Pearygin creek (6 years ago) was loaded with browse and sign.
Cub creek and that side of the valley was loaded with browse. It must have been a good growing year up there.what was the snow depth last year?
Hopefully the west side will help sustain the herd from what was lost on the east side.
Post by: boneaddict on October 18, 2014, 05:01:15 PM
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 19, 2014, 01:52:31 AM
Alchase- did you notice if Beaver Creek Campground burned. That has been an established camp/town for decades during hunting season. I wasn't sure where the fire cut through there. I just finally figured out the significance of them calling them the lookout pack. Its not the mountain that they were on, but that you can lookout anywhere in the Methow Valley and see one.
Beaver creek camp itself did not burn.
I used one of the meat poles at one of the camps there to skin out my whitey I harvested during the general archery season :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 19, 2014, 08:47:14 AM
Post by: rickomatic on October 19, 2014, 09:31:06 AM
Did anybody notice this comment from the methow newspaper article above? Since when has there ever been a sage grouse in those areas?? And this guy is an assistant manager of the Methow Wildlife Area?? Unreal. I suppose we have hyenas and tule elk on the wildlife area as well. :dunno:
John Lindsay, assistant manager of the Methow Wildlife Area in Winthrop, spent opening weekend scouting Aeneas Mountain in the Sinlahekin for late-season archery prospects.
“I saw mostly whitetails but lots of sage and ruffed grouse,” Lindsey said.
Don't know about hyenas, but one of our group of 16 ( camped off 200 rd at Perrygine creek) not only spotted, but took a pretty good picture of a huge bull moose meandering across Sullivan Pond on Thursday 10/9.
Of our entire group, my son was the only one to take a legal buck. And that was a small 3x4 4 miles behind the gate towards Boulder creek. Took him out in the pouring rain on Wednesday. We only saw and or heard of a few bucks taken out the entire week. Judging by the amount of shooting we heard, it was really slow.
We also talked with several of the high horse camps and they too said it was really slow.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 19, 2014, 10:07:20 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2014, 10:13:20 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 19, 2014, 10:19:27 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2014, 10:23:51 AM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 19, 2014, 10:40:25 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 19, 2014, 11:55:26 AM
That bull.moose has been in that area for quite a while now. The moose seem to keep expanding in the Methow.
The moose are getting pushed down into the lower country, just like the elk we usually don't see as many of, you can thank WDFW and their wolves.
Post by: Alchase on October 19, 2014, 04:02:35 PM
I saw moose sign up in the larch blow down by Loop Loop, still have not seen it myself though. I tried to get pics last year but they disappeared when I had my camera.
Post by: huntnphool on October 19, 2014, 04:10:32 PM
Post by: skidynastar33 on October 19, 2014, 08:47:08 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 19, 2014, 08:50:32 PM
We saw drop time bull a couple times. Have some pics of him but Arnt that great. Overall in out party (about 10) we saw 2 cows, 3calves, and 5 bulls. I think a tag should be coming soon!Likely a different bull, :tup: either that or you were trespassing. ;)
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 19, 2014, 08:59:32 PM
We saw drop time bull a couple times. Have some pics of him but Arnt that great. Overall in out party (about 10) we saw 2 cows, 3calves, and 5 bulls. I think a tag should be coming soon!Likely a different bull, :tup: either that or you were trespassing. ;)
Moose move a lot, wh do think he is trespassing? :dunno:
Post by: huntnphool on October 19, 2014, 09:46:58 PM
We saw drop time bull a couple times. Have some pics of him but Arnt that great. Overall in out party (about 10) we saw 2 cows, 3calves, and 5 bulls. I think a tag should be coming soon!Likely a different bull, :tup: either that or you were trespassing. ;)
Moose move a lot, wh do think he is trespassing? :dunno:
I said "likely", since this bull has been on this private ground for a couple years.
More of a joke than anything, hence the wink, don't read anymore into than what's actually there.
Post by: bigmacc on October 20, 2014, 03:28:46 PM
Sounds like a camp at Sullivan Pond is a good starting point. :chuckle:
Oh, good old Sullivan pond....I seen that moose roaming around there last november also.Just think what you might see there if it was still "a pond"! 30-40 years ago we used to pull some nice fish out of there,we would just catch and release(the meat tasted like mud and looked like boot grease) but they were fun to catch,12' to 16' long and husky fish,couldnt keep em off your hook.
Post by: boneaddict on October 20, 2014, 03:41:00 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 20, 2014, 05:44:22 PM
last time I went there to fish I couldn't get to the water. MUD too deep. That was quite some time
I hear ya bone,I think it was around 20-25 years ago? :dunno: that it started shrinking and drying up......I remember that old cowboy that we both know ;) pulled a nice 4 by 5 out of there one november around thanksgiving that had got swallowed up in that mud up to his brisket.He lassoed it and pulled it out with his horse and cut the rope as short as he could and it bounced off.Would have liked to see the look on the face of the guy who found his sheds :chuckle:(if they were ever found).
Post by: Alchase on October 21, 2014, 01:01:56 PM
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 26, 2014, 05:48:33 PM
For those that actually know the area and the routine you will know what I mean by low this time of year. Some serious quality masher bucks out and about now. After the 4th day of assessing the situation and the fact there was and has not been massive pressure or any mass slaughter I filled my second tag and yes with a muley doe. I have no shame for doing so either. I harvested a whitetail doe during my general archery season which is normally a mule deer. So I took one of each this year and don't feel bad for it. Hate me if you want but I don't think it's necessary. This is not a challenge nor am I lashing out at anyone for their opinion. It's just an honest assessment and report of what I saw and what I did.
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2014, 06:40:06 PM
Update, Just spent 5 days in all three units open to the doe tags while visiting my friend and hunting partner that is a longtime resident of the methow valley area. There was literally no one in the woods hunting no traffic whatsoever. There is no mass destruction of the doe population. All the chicken little chatter about "mass destruction" and gloom and doom should be able to take a rest. We did see numerous migratory bucks down low already as well as doe's.
For those that actually know the area and the routine you will know what I mean by low this time of year. Some serious quality masher bucks out and about now. After the 4th day of assessing the situation and the fact there was and has not been massive pressure or any mass slaughter I filled my second tag and yes with a muley doe. I have no shame for doing so either. I harvested a whitetail doe during my general archery season which is normally a mule deer. So I took one of each this year and don't feel bad for it. Hate me if you want but I don't think it's necessary. This is not a challenge nor am I lashing out at anyone for their opinion. It's just an honest assessment and report of what I saw and what I did.
LOL :chuckle: refer to anyone's comments openly opposed to the F&W decision as "chicken little chatter" and then step your comment back at the end with "this is not a challenge nor am I lashing out".....lmao
Did you consider the possibility that a good number of the tag holders are also opposed to that decision, and purchased the extra tag just to make sure one less doe was killed and never intending to hunt, which is why you had the whole place to yourself?
Congrats on your freezer filler. :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on October 26, 2014, 06:47:19 PM
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 26, 2014, 06:50:17 PM
Post by: Tbar on October 26, 2014, 06:57:04 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2014, 07:58:43 PM
Update, Just spent 5 days in all three units open to the doe tags while visiting my friend and hunting partner that is a longtime resident of the methow valley area. There was literally no one in the woods hunting no traffic whatsoever. There is no mass destruction of the doe population. All the chicken little chatter about "mass destruction" and gloom and doom should be able to take a rest. We did see numerous migratory bucks down low already as well as doe's.
For those that actually know the area and the routine you will know what I mean by low this time of year. Some serious quality masher bucks out and about now. After the 4th day of assessing the situation and the fact there was and has not been massive pressure or any mass slaughter I filled my second tag and yes with a muley doe. I have no shame for doing so either. I harvested a whitetail doe during my general archery season which is normally a mule deer. So I took one of each this year and don't feel bad for it. Hate me if you want but I don't think it's necessary. This is not a challenge nor am I lashing out at anyone for their opinion. It's just an honest assessment and report of what I saw and what I did.
LOL :chuckle: refer to anyone's comments openly opposed to the F&W decision as "chicken little chatter" and then step your comment back at the end with "this is not a challenge nor am I lashing out".....lmao
Did you consider the possibility that a good number of the tag holders are also opposed to that decision, and purchased the extra tag just to make sure one less doe was killed and never intending to hunt, which is why you had the whole place to yourself?
Congrats on your freezer filler. :twocents:
Thanks for the update. I must also say the "chicken little" remark may not have been a good choice of words if you wernt looking for a "challenge",etc,etc. As you said,everyone has there own opinions on this issue. I personally happen to know of 7 doe tags that were NOT used by other hunters and locals I know over there,7 does that are being given the CHANCE to make it through the winter, to breed and hopefully drop fawns in the spring.Not a challenge to those who used the tags,just another way to look at it,and my opinion.... :twocents:
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 26, 2014, 08:03:24 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 26, 2014, 08:24:50 PM
Congrats again,
--Chicken Little--
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on October 26, 2014, 08:45:58 PM
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 26, 2014, 09:20:39 PM
Well I'm proud of you for filling your doe tag within 3 units with nobody in the woods. Must have been a very rewarding feeling on the trip back to Snohomish County knowing that you succeeded. Did you get her right before she starved standing in the burn?
Congrats again,
--Chicken Little--
No I waited until she stepped into lush green grass.......You assume a lot knowing next to nothing :tup: only finger available.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 26, 2014, 09:25:14 PM
Post by: Mtn.Ghost on October 26, 2014, 09:32:01 PM
LMAO. Enlighten me then, SnoCoGenius ;)
NWMT NorthCentralKnotHead :tung:
Post by: actionshooter on October 26, 2014, 09:36:31 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 26, 2014, 09:37:19 PM
So just out of curiosity? Is every person that admits to hunting in the methow over the next X amount of years going to get a ration for doing so?
You clearly have not read the entire thread, or completely misunderstood the opposing comments.
Perhaps you could point out the posts where someone was given "a ration" too, I must have missed those. :dunno:
Post by: MtnMuley on October 26, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Exactly. Not worth mine either. Now be on your way like a ghost :rolleyes:LMAO. Enlighten me then, SnoCoGenius ;)
NWMT NorthCentralKnotHead :tung:
Post by: boneaddict on October 31, 2014, 05:07:28 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 31, 2014, 11:15:02 PM
Post by: boneaddict on November 01, 2014, 06:52:38 AM
Post by: wsmnut on November 01, 2014, 07:51:29 AM
Glad everyone came and left your money...
Healthy buck harvest segues into expanded doe season
by ADMIN on Oct 31, 2014 • 12:48 pm No Comments
Chris Thomson of Thomson’s Custom Meats holds the trophy head of the “biggest buck I’ve seen come out of this valley in the past 25 years.” The monster rack was taken by 74-year-old Mel Souders of Marysville. Photo by Mike Maltais
By Mike Maltais
As harvest figures are analyzed and numbers crunched in the wake of this year’s nine-day modern firearm general deer season from Oct. 11-19, local hunters have shifted their focus toward an abundance of antlerless permits in the three game management units (GMUs) – Pearrygin, Chiliwist and Alta – most affected by this summer’s Carlton Complex Fire.
Hunters have upwards of 1,900 permits to harvest antlerless deer in fire-ravaged GMUs to help mitigate potential winter losses that could occur if the combination of reduced winter range and harsh winter conditions becomes extreme. Permit hunters have through the end of the month to fill their tags, plus an additional 10 days at the end of November if more time is needed.
Every indicator used to evaluate local hunter success in the buck season points to better-than-average numbers of legal bucks taken, in spite of questionable conditions that made reliable predictions in some doubt.
Carcass counts at Thomson’s Custom Meats in Twisp, hides dropped off at Katie Russell’s skinning station on Highway 20, the Washington Department of Fish and Game’s (WDFW) check station at The Barn in Winthrop, and reports from hunters returning from the field all support the consensus that it was a better-than-average season in GMUs that comprise the greater Methow Valley.
Seth Thomson of Thomson’s Meats said carcasses hanging in the company’s cooler were nearly double the number recorded last year. That included one mule deer with a massive rack that Chris Thomson claims was “the biggest buck I’ve seen come out of this area in the past 25 years.”
The trophy buck was shot by 74-year-old Mel Souders of Marysville, who was hunting north of Winthrop in an area where two years ago he shot another big buck wearing a set of antlers only slightly smaller than this year’s prize.
Bent Kios of Seattle has been hunting in the Rendezvous area since 2006. This year he was with his son Leif and a friend when all three got their bucks – father and son a 3×3 and 5×5 pointer respectively, and another 5×5 for their companion.
Deer counts at the WDFW’s Winthrop check station, particularly toward the end of the season, reflected a buck harvest “slightly above the five-year average for the area,” said WDFW biologist Scott Fitkin. The numbers also pointed a level of hunting pressure about identical to 2013, a welcome surprise to game monitors who were concerned that the summer’s natural disasters would warn away a large influx of fall hunters.
Post by: huntnphool on October 09, 2015, 01:14:47 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 09, 2015, 01:26:50 PM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on October 09, 2015, 01:35:22 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 09, 2015, 03:03:35 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 09, 2015, 03:08:14 PM
WDFW cancelled their annual round table meeting with us locals here this year. Reason: Lack of Funding
Well that's not a complete shock, after all, they have the WAG to allocate a significant amount of resources to now. :mor:
Post by: MtnMuley on October 09, 2015, 03:18:01 PM
WDFW cancelled their annual round table meeting with us locals here this year. Reason: Lack of Funding
Well that's not a complete shock, after all, they have the WAG to allocate a significant amount of resources to now. :mor:
Yes, that article made it into the local paper this week and has the whole community talking. With the dept. being at an all time low with it's patrons, I just hope our wildlife doesn't pay the big price for their idiocracy. :stup: :pee:
Post by: JLS on October 09, 2015, 03:18:43 PM
Give them time!! They have to issue the doe tags after the does have been bred and then the hunters can come in and shoot a pregnant doe that still has a yearling hanging off its tit. Then the yearling dies because it hasn't learned to survive a winter. Thus they kill 3 for the price of one.
You might want to study up on your physiology and endocrinology if you think the does are betting bred while they are still lactating. The young are weaned and functional ruminants prior to the breeding season.
Post by: grundy53 on October 09, 2015, 07:35:46 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 09, 2015, 07:51:58 PM
I heard they are already offering tags to anyone who put in for antlerless tags for those units. I'm pretty sure someone on here posted that they received a letter from the game department offering the opportunity.
Can anyone confirm this?
Post by: grundy53 on October 09, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
I heard they are already offering tags to anyone who put in for antlerless tags for those units. I'm pretty sure someone on here posted that they received a letter from the game department offering the opportunity.
Can anyone confirm this?
I tried to find the post but couldn't. I'll keep looking. But it might have been on facebook :dunno:.
Post by: Ddouble on October 09, 2015, 08:02:36 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 09, 2015, 08:06:35 PM
Confirm I had put in for second deer in area 2016 and got notified 100 extra tags available for those who had put in on the draw.
Second deer is different than Methow unit specific doe tags they handed out like crack last year.
Post by: grundy53 on October 09, 2015, 08:07:42 PM
Confirm I had put in for second deer in area 2016 and got notified 100 extra tags available for those who had put in on the draw.
This could have been what I read.
Post by: Romulus1297 on October 09, 2015, 09:44:16 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 09, 2015, 09:46:20 PM
My daughter got their special letter last year and then drew another doe tag this year. 2nd year hunting for her. :dunno: Because she got 1 last year they want her to get 1 this year :dunno:
There are those of us that apply/buy doe tags every year, just to burn them and allow one more doe to make it through. ;)
Post by: Romulus1297 on October 09, 2015, 09:56:57 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 09, 2015, 09:58:55 PM
Whitetail is only deer we are after not a mule deer. We are not saving the whitetails. I'm tired of seeing so many whitetail mixed in with the mule deer. :sry:
:tup:
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 10, 2015, 06:47:41 AM
My daughter got their special letter last year and then drew another doe tag this year. 2nd year hunting for her. :dunno: Because she got 1 last year they want her to get 1 this year :dunno:
There are those of us that apply/buy doe tags every year, just to burn them and allow one more doe to make it through. ;)
:yeah: My wife and I both had them last year and this year. We did not go last year when we found out they were killing off so many deer. Probably wont go this year either?
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2015, 01:17:56 PM
Post by: kirkl on October 10, 2015, 01:51:00 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 10, 2015, 02:23:50 PM
My daughter got their special letter last year and then drew another doe tag this year. 2nd year hunting for her. :dunno: Because she got 1 last year they want her to get 1 this year :dunno:
There are those of us that apply/buy doe tags every year, just to burn them and allow one more doe to make it through. ;)
That's sort of like anti hunters putting in for tags they never intend to use to protect animals from hunters.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 10, 2015, 03:40:21 PM
I'm gonna tear up my peargyn Muley rut tag this year to help the herd...........
You're a good man kirkl :chuckle:
Post by: MtnMuley on October 10, 2015, 03:44:40 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2015, 05:39:45 PM
I'm gonna tear up my peargyn Muley rut tag this year to help the herd........... Ya right :chuckle::chuckle:
Post by: Romulus1297 on October 10, 2015, 06:46:04 PM
My girl killed a whitetail doe last year and this year she drew another doe tag. Not anti hunter here but she does draw more tags then I do.My daughter got their special letter last year and then drew another doe tag this year. 2nd year hunting for her. :dunno: Because she got 1 last year they want her to get 1 this year :dunno:
There are those of us that apply/buy doe tags every year, just to burn them and allow one more doe to make it through. ;)
That's sort of like anti hunters putting in for tags they never intend to use to protect animals from hunters.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 10, 2015, 09:03:22 PM
My girl killed a whitetail doe last year and this year she drew another doe tag. Not anti hunter here but she does draw more tags then I do.My daughter got their special letter last year and then drew another doe tag this year. 2nd year hunting for her. :dunno: Because she got 1 last year they want her to get 1 this year :dunno:
There are those of us that apply/buy doe tags every year, just to burn them and allow one more doe to make it through. ;)
That's sort of like anti hunters putting in for tags they never intend to use to protect animals from hunters.
Wasn't accusing you Romulus. Was just pointing out that the people HuntinPhool was mentioning are using the same tactics that antis use, and for much the same reason and the result is the same.
Basically, they are taking opportunity from people who would appreciate it because of their own personal beliefs. Part of that belief is that game animals aren't being managed properly and the person purposely letting a tag go to waste knows more than the actual people taxed with managing. Their own personal beliefs trump science and sound management.
It's a thin line between love and hate and between antis and some hunters apparently.
Post by: Dan-o on October 10, 2015, 09:14:38 PM
That just seems strange to me. :dunno:
Do you really think taking some does out of the Methow is a bad thing? I'm no expert on the methow, but I see tons of deer there, and it seems that maybe taking some does out would be good for the rest of the herd (leaving more food after the fire). And I do know that herds bounce back amazing fast in areas with revitalized forage after a major fire.
(Not looking for a fight; just trying to understand.)
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2015, 09:21:02 PM
My girl killed a whitetail doe last year and this year she drew another doe tag. Not anti hunter here but she does draw more tags then I do.My daughter got their special letter last year and then drew another doe tag this year. 2nd year hunting for her. :dunno: Because she got 1 last year they want her to get 1 this year :dunno:
There are those of us that apply/buy doe tags every year, just to burn them and allow one more doe to make it through. ;)
That's sort of like anti hunters putting in for tags they never intend to use to protect animals from hunters.
Wasn't accusing you Romulus. Was just pointing out that the people HuntinPhool was mentioning are using the same tactics that antis use, and for much the same reason and the result is the same.
Basically, they are taking opportunity from people who would appreciate it because of their own personal beliefs. Part of that belief is that game animals aren't being managed properly and the person purposely letting a tag go to waste knows more than the actual people taxed with managing. Their own personal beliefs trump science and sound management.
It's a thin line between love and hate and between antis and some hunters apparently.
:chuckle: okay SB, it's obvious you are looking for a argument, so explain to me the "science and sound management" that led to last year's early Oct. announcement of a additional 1000 doe tags for the Methow.
"Science and sound management", man you need to pull your head out of the sand!
Post by: Bob33 on October 10, 2015, 09:22:21 PM
Post by: Dan-o on October 10, 2015, 09:27:55 PM
I wonder if that actually does anything - or if WDFW just gives more the next year?
Post by: Wacenturion on October 10, 2015, 09:28:01 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 10, 2015, 09:40:40 PM
"science and sound management".........................far from it.
Exactly. If you, SB, are going to come on here and say Scott Fitkin, the local bio, practice sound management, you're absolutely clueless. He's the biggest detriment to the ungulates in this county. Fact
Post by: Romulus1297 on October 10, 2015, 09:41:21 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 10, 2015, 09:49:59 PM
Special permit applications are $7 and yes, some apply to get drawn and not use it.
Myself and my family have put in for doe tags since they have been around, before it was cool to do, politictly correct to do or as some perceive as the right thing to do.....when drawn or purchased everyone of them was burned!..Mr Sitka-I AM NOT AN ANTI. Be careful not to lump everyone into your statements without knowing them or their beliefs.
Post by: Dan-o on October 10, 2015, 10:44:12 PM
Special permit applications are $7 and yes, some apply to get drawn and not use it.
Myself and my family have put in for doe tags since they have been around, before it was cool to do, politictly correct to do or as some perceive as the right thing to do.....when drawn or purchased everyone of them was burned!..Mr Sitka-I AM NOT AN ANTI. Be careful not to lump everyone into your statements without knowing them or their beliefs.
Do you do this as part of your personal effort to help rebuild the Methow deer herd?
Post by: MtnMuley on October 11, 2015, 05:37:42 AM
Post by: grundy53 on October 11, 2015, 06:25:41 AM
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
Post by: wolfbait on October 11, 2015, 07:07:08 AM
"science and sound management".........................far from it.
Exactly. If you, SB, are going to come on here and say Scott Fitkin, the local bio, practice sound management, you're absolutely clueless. He's the biggest detriment to the ungulates in this county. Fact
Not too many years ago at this time of year we would see 50-100 head of deer in the alfalfa field and call it a "bunch"of deer, today we see 5-10 deer and call it a bunch.
We have wolf packs that WDFW refuse to confirm, and over population of cougars that WDFW protect and then add doe tags with extra tags thrown in whenever WDFW think they have a reason to get rid of more deer.
At the end of season Scott Fitkin will make his annual report of: For the amount of hunters that showed up the hunting was a great success, and perhaps better then last years hunt.
The mule deer are being wiped out by WDFW through mismanagement of predation and over hunting, and the whitetail will follow.
I commend those who have tried to prolong WDFW's predetermined outcome by tearing up their doe tags, as they save one to four deer every year. :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2015, 10:03:07 AM
Post by: Stickerbush on October 11, 2015, 10:22:17 AM
Post by: bigmacc on October 11, 2015, 11:33:33 AM
the herd is in the worst condition I have ever seen.
I agree, a mere shadow of what it once was and apparently the way to revive it is keep killing does :bash: :bash:
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2015, 11:35:40 AM
the herd is in the worst condition I have ever seen.apparently the way to revive it is keep killing does :bash: :bash:
"Science and sound management" right there! ;)
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2015, 12:31:11 PM
Post by: xxlx7 on October 11, 2015, 01:28:55 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 11, 2015, 02:28:51 PM
Special permit applications are $7 and yes, some apply to get drawn and not use it.
Myself and my family have put in for doe tags since they have been around, before it was cool to do, politictly correct to do or as some perceive as the right thing to do.....when drawn or purchased everyone of them was burned!..Mr Sitka-I AM NOT AN ANTI. Be careful not to lump everyone into your statements without knowing them or their beliefs.
I'm sure you think your intentions are pure. So do the antis. You obviously think you know more about the herd than the managers. So do the antis. What happens with someone drawing a tag they have no intent to use is that someone who would love to use it loses a chance. Doesn't matter which side of the fence you are on, the result is the same. When hunters use the tactic, they are giving credence to antis using it too.
Post by: Hilltop123 on October 11, 2015, 02:53:53 PM
Special permit applications are $7 and yes, some apply to get drawn and not use it.
Myself and my family have put in for doe tags since they have been around, before it was cool to do, politictly correct to do or as some perceive as the right thing to do.....when drawn or purchased everyone of them was burned!..Mr Sitka-I AM NOT AN ANTI. Be careful not to lump everyone into your statements without knowing them or their beliefs.
I'm sure you think your intentions are pure. So do the antis. You obviously think you know more about the herd than the managers. So do the antis. What happens with someone drawing a tag they have no intent to use is that someone who would love to use it loses a chance. Doesn't matter which side of the fence you are on, the result is the same. When hunters use the tactic, they are giving credence to antis using it too.
Doe tags have been purchased, drawn, what ever term you wish to use, for 40 years, in the Methow. It has always been a local practice to get the doe tag with no intention of ever using it. Locals, I mean old timers, born and raised in the valley, for time and immemorial, have always thought the game dept, has never managed the herd correctly.
This is hardly a recent trend with hunters. So I am not sure we need to be taking swipes at each other. :twocents:
Post by: grundy53 on October 11, 2015, 03:00:33 PM
Give me a break.Special permit applications are $7 and yes, some apply to get drawn and not use it.
Myself and my family have put in for doe tags since they have been around, before it was cool to do, politictly correct to do or as some perceive as the right thing to do.....when drawn or purchased everyone of them was burned!..Mr Sitka-I AM NOT AN ANTI. Be careful not to lump everyone into your statements without knowing them or their beliefs.
I'm sure you think your intentions are pure. So do the antis. You obviously think you know more about the herd than the managers. So do the antis. What happens with someone drawing a tag they have no intent to use is that someone who would love to use it loses a chance. Doesn't matter which side of the fence you are on, the result is the same. When hunters use the tactic, they are giving credence to antis using it too.
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Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 11, 2015, 03:05:47 PM
Issuing an additional 1200 doe tags a couple months after the fire without actually having a problem, definately didn't contribute anything positive to "rebuilding the Methow deer herd".
This wasn't done to "rebuild" the herd. It was done to prevent a massive die off n the event of a bad winter. It's too late to use this tactic after the fact and a bad winter hits. By the time you can respond, most of the animals are in starvation mode and weakened and the resources are stressed also and won't support a recovery as quickly as an area that hasn't been overgrazed.
I saw a perfect example of this my last couple years in Alaska. The local moose herd out of Cordova had been growing to an all time high after a series of mild winters and the number of bull tags allowed for the drawing for the town side of the Copper River was also high. But the local biologists were doing studies on the willows the moose depend on and found that they were stressed. If the winters stayed mild, they may have been able to get a few more years out of the high numbers without a problem, but they decided to be proactive and reduce the herd before something bad happened. So they gave out a massive amount of cow tags which was met with a good amount of negative feelings from some of the local hunters, the same way these doe tags for the Methow were viewed. A few years of large cow harvest successfully knocked the herd back just in time for the winter of 2011-2012, Snopocalypse. It snowed over 30 feet that winter, but the moose herd made it through relatively unscathed and has quickly recovered. Hunting has remained good throughout and this year was exceptional. If the Bio's hadn't taken the action they did, (with the approval of the local advisory council) The herd would have been devastated and recovery would have been slow. We saw that there in the 70s when the same thing happened but without knocking the herd back beforehand.
The deer herd on the other hand suffered greatly from Snowpocalypse with estimates of up to an 80% die off. The herd had grown too large for the limited winter feed to support it with that much snow. The deer herd is also recovering, but at a much slower pace than the moose herd, even with a much more restricted season for shooting does. (One month instead of three months)
http://www.adn.com/article/brutal-winter-puts-hurt-deer-population-prince-william-sound
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2015, 03:13:26 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 11, 2015, 03:16:58 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2015, 03:35:48 PM
Issuing an additional 1200 doe tags a couple months after the fire without actually having a problem, definately didn't contribute anything positive to "rebuilding the Methow deer herd".
This wasn't done to "rebuild" the herd. It was done to prevent a massive die off n the event of a bad winter. It's too late to use this tactic after the fact and a bad winter hits. By the time you can respond, most of the animals are in starvation mode and weakened and the resources are stressed also and won't support a recovery as quickly as an area that hasn't been overgrazed.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you SB, there was absolutely zero science used last year for their decision, it was a knee jerk reaction based solely on A GUESS, nothing more! They guessed, while it was still 70* in September mind you, and tried to predict what even the best scientists in the world can't do, what the weather is going to do 3 and 4 months down the road.
At the time of the announcement, the herd was still healthy and even in their words had plenty of time to make decisions if the weather turned for the worst. Perhaps you should go back and read from the beginning of the thread. ;)
Admittedly by WDFW, the deer would be okay if they could get to December before a bad storm. Had that happened, they could have then issued the emergency tags.........but they jumped to premature conclusions..............again, based on a guess, neither "science or sound management"! :twocents:
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 11, 2015, 03:39:50 PM
But none of that really matters. The results will reveal themselves in due time. And if the Methow takes a disastrous turn, there will be a lot of "I told you sos". If the herd recovers because of the way it's being managed, I doubt I'll be hearing many say, "Well I'll be darned, I was wrong".
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
But none of that really matters. The results will reveal themselves in due time. And if the Methow takes a disastrous turn, there will be a lot of "I told you sos". If the herd recovers
What's done is done SB, future results will have no relevance to last year's fiasco, nice try though.
Bottom line, they could have waited and instead made piss poor decisions based on speculation, even the most fervent WDFW supporter should see that. ;)
Post by: bigmacc on October 11, 2015, 05:20:58 PM
You're right, we could argue all year and we probably wouldn't see eye to eye. I know nothing about the Methow, That may give you reason to write off my opinion. But I know deer and I pay a lot of attention to management schemes and what works in other places including those I've never been. I have friends who are biologists including the head bio during the moose reduction I mentioned above and I ask a lot of questions and I try not to have preconceived ideas I'm not willing to move from. I also know that the states with the best deer management incorporate a lot of doe hunting in their management plans to keep herds balanced. I've spent over 50 years in the woods of Washington and Alaska and have seen numerous rises and falls of different game populations.
But none of that really matters. The results will reveal themselves in due time. And if the Methow takes a disastrous turn, there will be a lot of "I told you sos". If the herd recovers because of the way it's being managed, I doubt I'll be hearing many say, "Well I'll be darned, I was wrong".
Sitka that is what we are saying, the herd in the methow has already taken a "disastrous turn" as you say, in fact many of them over the years. Those of us who have history in this valley see it, whether fire related,weather related or predator related. This herd is nothing like it was and continues to slide and the answer always seems to be "shoot more does" I guess we can add another to the "disastrous turn" list....management related!....as always,my opinion and my :twocents:
Post by: Igor on October 11, 2015, 07:18:15 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 11, 2015, 07:38:47 PM
That and the fire fighters dropping retardant around all the homes creating pockets of feed.
Now, if they'd just control their dogs.
Post by: Ridgeratt on October 11, 2015, 07:45:47 PM
One of the major reasons the Methow herd has taken a "disastrous turn" is that the valley is way more populated by people than it has ever been. I have hunted there annually for thirty years. In that time the winter range for mule deer has shrunk in a major way. Every hilltop and hillside that used to be winter range for mule deer now has a house on it. Thousands of acres which used to be covered with migrating mule deer now have no deer on them at all during the winter months. It is a sad sight to see !!!!!
We have a WINNER!!!!
But it is everywhere. You left out that they all have 3 dog's as well.
Post by: Igor on October 11, 2015, 08:25:19 PM
It is a sad sight to see, but you want to hear something ironic. The private property is like a little game reserve. This will really fire up ole Sitka. Those anti hunters might be what is saving any chance the herd might have. :chuckle:
That and the fire fighters dropping retardant around all the homes creating pockets of feed.
Now, if they'd just control their dogs.
I guess you lost me there. How do "Those anti hunters" save the mule deer herd in the Methow??
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 11, 2015, 08:31:29 PM
All those unhuntable yards to hang out in all winter.It is a sad sight to see, but you want to hear something ironic. The private property is like a little game reserve. This will really fire up ole Sitka. Those anti hunters might be what is saving any chance the herd might have. :chuckle:
That and the fire fighters dropping retardant around all the homes creating pockets of feed.
Now, if they'd just control their dogs.
I guess you lost me there. How do "Those anti hunters" save the mule deer herd in the Methow??
Post by: boneaddict on October 12, 2015, 07:21:06 AM
I'm not arguing with you Igor. I've seen a lot of beautiful range turn into yards filled with dogs.
Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2015, 07:51:25 AM
One of the major reasons the Methow herd has taken a "disastrous turn" is that the valley is way more populated by people than it has ever been. I have hunted there annually for thirty years. In that time the winter range for mule deer has shrunk in a major way. Every hilltop and hillside that used to be winter range for mule deer now has a house on it. Thousands of acres which used to be covered with migrating mule deer now have no deer on them at all during the winter months. It is a sad sight to see !!!!!
During the winter months the deer that are so "impacted" by homes, hang out in the front yard for safety, I might add it use to be just the winter months but now you can see deer bedded down around homes year around, protection from predators.
I remember some bad winters that many of these same people bought hay for the deer when they were starving and pressured WDFW to help, which they finally did putting their pellet stations along the county roads.
It isn't the population of people that has caused the"disastrous turn""
it's WDFW management.
How many livestock producers would be in business very long if they allowed predators to work their herds over day in and day out, and then take the same amount to the butcher shop every year?
Post by: bobcat on October 12, 2015, 08:30:46 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2015, 09:07:16 AM
If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.
If winter range was lacking you would see it in ate down bitter brush etc. I can hike you through the Methow and show you this has not happened. Three years ago we had areas that always had deer in the winter time and it was void of deer, so it is not the lack of winter range it is the depletion of deer.
Post by: huntnphool on October 12, 2015, 09:09:29 AM
If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.
If winter range was lacking you would see it in ate down bitter brush etc. I can hike you through the Methow and show you this has not happened. Three years ago we had areas that always had deer in the winter time and it was void of deer, so it is not the lack of winter range it is the depletion of deer.
+1
Post by: Igor on October 12, 2015, 12:19:50 PM
If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.
The lack of winter range is precisely the problem. The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part. They are resident deer which are used to being around people. You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there. The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins. The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses. This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.
Post by: huntnphool on October 12, 2015, 01:16:28 PM
If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.
The lack of winter range is precisely the problem. The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part. They are resident deer which are used to being around people. You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there. The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins. The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses. This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.
I agree habitat is essential but will respectfully disagree with your Methow assessment. Most, if not all, of the winter range that I have been hunting for the last 40 years in the Methow has no more houses/cabins on it than it had back then. The wintering areas where we used to see 500 head at a time are for the most part empty, yet have very little increase in development.
Post by: UBA on October 12, 2015, 01:22:28 PM
Post by: grundy53 on October 12, 2015, 01:38:08 PM
The encroachment into the winter range by houses has lowered the maximum holding capacity of the herd. However I don't believe the herd is even near large enough to use the winter range it currently has.:yeah:
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Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2015, 03:24:06 PM
If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.
The lack of winter range is precisely the problem. The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part. They are resident deer which are used to being around people. You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there. The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins. The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses. This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.
So you are saying that predation by wolves and an over population of cougars plus WDFW issuing excessive doe tags wouldn't be an issue if there was more habitat?
In 2008 we fed over a hundred head of deer with our horses and mules last year we fed three does and a little buck, talk to ranchers and they will tell you of the same decline in the amount of deer they fed last year verses 2008. Whether you want to call them migration deer or farmland there's plenty of habitat, just not many deer and they continue to drop year after year.
Post by: bigmacc on October 12, 2015, 04:38:08 PM
If winter range is lacking, I'd say that's the primary reason for low deer numbers, not WDFW's management. Or in other words- habitat, the most important factor of all.
The lack of winter range is precisely the problem. The deer that hang out in front yards are not migratory deer, for the most part. They are resident deer which are used to being around people. You can drive around the Methow on Memorial Day or Labor Day, and those deer are right there. The winter range which used to be so prevalent is now filled up with houses and cabins. The parts of the Methow which at one time provided the lowest levels of snow, as well as winter browse, are now filled up with houses. This is one of the major factors in the decline of the mule deer migrations.
I agree habitat is essential but will respectfully disagree with your Methow assessment. Most, if not all, of the winter range that I have been hunting for the last 40 years in the Methow has no more houses/cabins on it than it had back then. The wintering areas where we used to see 500 head at a time are for the most part empty, yet have very little increase in development.
I 100percent agree phool, yes houses have been built and property fenced and I,m sure it has impacted the herd but not to the tune of 20- 30 thousand animals! Other factors have contributed. This herd was once estimated at 30 to 40 thousand animals in the not to distant past, I believe that last year they had it pegged at about 10 thousand(and I believe that number is high). Areas we are in have plenty of food, no fences and no houses and is part of the winter range and like your observations - huge declines in numbers over the last 10 years. Could this herd not be the priority it once was? Could it not be being managed as a priority as it once was? Could preditors be out of control? Has mother nature played a role time to time? I think the answer to these questions are yes to all of them. Roughly 20- 30 thousand animals have (for a lack of better words) disappeared over a not to short amount of time and game management thinks the answer is to shoot more does! Could management be a problem? IMHO,I think the answer to this question could be yes also......my :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on October 12, 2015, 06:41:12 PM
There's a lot of winter range that isn't touched and is near void of critters. That's particularly why I think the doe permits are idiotic.
Post by: Bean Counter on October 12, 2015, 06:49:26 PM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 12, 2015, 07:30:38 PM
I don't get up there much anymore, and haven't seen first hand the effects of the 2014-15 fires. But curious what has changed in the last year since this thread below when people (some on this thread) were convinced that there wasn't enough winter range left to support the herd. Did it grow back? Did we just get lucky with a mild winter that didn't concentrate the deer?
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=162357.0
Post by: grundy53 on October 12, 2015, 07:45:48 PM
Would love to get a bio's perspective on why they think habitat is the limiting factor.Here is one Bio's perspective. :chuckle:
I don't get up there much anymore, and haven't seen first hand the effects of the 2014-15 fires. But curious what has changed in the last year since this thread below when people (some on this thread) were convinced that there wasn't enough winter range left to support the herd. Did it grow back? Did we just get lucky with a mild winter that didn't concentrate the deer?
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=162357.0
"science and sound management".........................far from it.
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Post by: bigmacc on October 13, 2015, 05:15:10 AM
I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.
IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year :dunno:), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us... :twocents:
Post by: grundy53 on October 13, 2015, 05:20:48 AM
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Post by: wsmnut on October 13, 2015, 06:43:13 AM
if Fitkin stops issuing the doe permits it would be admitting that there's a problem.
And he can't have that, can he? He's been telling everyone for years how well this herd is doing.
Post by: grundy53 on October 13, 2015, 06:48:22 AM
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Post by: huntnphool on October 13, 2015, 07:54:42 AM
In addition to keeping the revenue stream alive, ( for both the state and the Valley),
if Fitkin stops issuing the doe permits it would be admitting that there's a problem.
And he can't have that, can he? He's been telling everyone for years how well this herd is doing.
Well there is that little conundrum isn't there! ;)
Post by: boneaddict on October 13, 2015, 07:56:06 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 13, 2015, 07:57:14 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 13, 2015, 07:59:26 AM
Post by: bigmacc on October 13, 2015, 09:48:18 AM
It's a management tool Bean, and in this case I'd say it's like using a sledge hammer to tighten the little screw coming lose on your eyeglasses. Wrong tool at the wrong time.
There ya go! :yeah:
Post by: GameHunter1959 on October 13, 2015, 10:50:02 AM
They keep giving out doe permits because it's free money to them. This state doesn't ever give up revenue streams...
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Boy isn't that the truth..
Post by: 300rum on October 13, 2015, 11:22:21 AM
That is what we are living with......
Post by: 300rum on October 13, 2015, 11:44:18 AM
"Although they do kill animals (prey), predators don’t affect stable wildlife populations! And when the prey species increases, so do the predators."
"If we try to eliminate predators, more animals will die from other causes, including hunting, disease, and accidents."
"Many years ago, people tried to improve game populations by controlling predators. Every agency that tried killing predators discovered that the best way to manage wildlife was by adding to or improving wildlife habitat. Predator control is simply not effective as a way to increase wildlife numbers permanently."
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 13, 2015, 12:01:57 PM
I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.
IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year :dunno:), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us... :twocents:
Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable. Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc. Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.
But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters. If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.
Post by: 300rum on October 13, 2015, 12:06:55 PM
"Many years ago, people (your Grandfathers) tried to improve game populations (and their existence) by controlling predators (Killing every Wolf, Coyote and Raptor that was caught around their livestock and chicken coop). Every agency (infiltrated by 60's Hippies and mother earth types) that tried killing predators discovered (by sucking up the liberal attitude that man=bad) that the best way to manage
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 13, 2015, 12:10:56 PM
Allow me tell you what the Government doesn't want you to know.
"Many years ago, people (your Grandfathers) tried to improve game populations (and their existence) by controlling predators (Killing every Wolf, Coyote and Raptor that was caught around their livestock and chicken coop). Every agency (infiltrated by 60's Hippies and mother earth types) that tried killing predators discovered (by sucking up the liberal attitude that man=bad) that the best way to managewildlife(Man) was by adding to (our budget through increased taxes through license's, "special" permits, non-resident license tax increases and in general additional taxes pulled out of the air), or improving wildlife habitat (which we regularly blame the loss of due to man's encroachment into non-urban areas). Predator control is simply (if you believe otherwise, you are simple, like a "special person" simple, you just aren't quite smart enough to get it but just listen to us, we know) not effective as a way to increase wildlife numbers permanently (meaning that in truth, predator control is an ongoing issue, we need to control them now and next year and the year after that. We really don't believe in our heart of heart's that man killing animals can possibly be any good so we can't endorse man killing anything to begin with.)."
That makes my head hurt to read ???
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 13, 2015, 12:23:39 PM
Predator management is expensive when taken on by .gov agencies. So, in times of budget cuts either spend the money culling predators or convince yourself that predators are super awesome and keep that money for other cushy projects.
The animals did fine and with abundance in Hawaii until the rats and then the mongoose showed up. But guess they were lacking 'balance' all those years.
Post by: grundy53 on October 13, 2015, 01:01:15 PM
So you're saying we should just lower our expectations so that the game department will look better and seem competent?I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.
IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year :dunno:), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us... :twocents:
Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable. Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc. Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.
But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters. If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.
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Post by: huntnphool on October 13, 2015, 01:12:41 PM
So you're saying we should just lower our expectations so that the game department will look better and seem competent?I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.
IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year :dunno:), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us... :twocents:
Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable. Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc. Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.
But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters. If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.
Isn't that the liberal motto for everything in Utopia?
Post by: grundy53 on October 13, 2015, 01:14:30 PM
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Post by: wsmnut on October 13, 2015, 01:29:37 PM
I am almost looking forward to the annual BS blast from him contained in the Methow Valley News. Should be an article quoting him out Thursday. Or maybe next week reporting on this weekends marvelous success rate.
Post by: huntnphool on October 13, 2015, 01:40:03 PM
I think Fitkin has lately been using a strategy of "managed results". He reports success rates relative to the number of hunters. So it's always good! That will work for him right down to the last doe.
I am almost looking forward to the annual BS blast from him contained in the Methow Valley News. Should be an article quoting him out Thursday. Or maybe next week reporting on this weekends marvelous success rate.
" The hunters asked for a longer season, we heard their requests and answered. As a result the success rate has been marvelous and the herd looks to have rebounded nicely from last year's fires and emergency management decisions."
Post by: wsmnut on October 13, 2015, 02:54:51 PM
I think Fitkin has lately been using a strategy of "managed results". He reports success rates relative to the number of hunters. So it's always good! That will work for him right down to the last doe.
I am almost looking forward to the annual BS blast from him contained in the Methow Valley News. Should be an article quoting him out Thursday. Or maybe next week reporting on this weekends marvelous success rate.
" The hunters asked for a longer season, we heard their requests and answered. As a result the success rate has been marvelous and the herd looks to have rebounded nicely from last year's fires and emergency management decisions."
I rest my case!
Post by: huntnphool on October 13, 2015, 03:06:08 PM
I think Fitkin has lately been using a strategy of "managed results". He reports success rates relative to the number of hunters. So it's always good! That will work for him right down to the last doe.
I am almost looking forward to the annual BS blast from him contained in the Methow Valley News. Should be an article quoting him out Thursday. Or maybe next week reporting on this weekends marvelous success rate.
" The hunters asked for a longer season, we heard their requests and answered. As a result the success rate has been marvelous and the herd looks to have rebounded nicely from last year's fires and emergency management decisions."
I rest my case!
It's a hypothetical. ;)
Post by: wsmnut on October 13, 2015, 03:37:13 PM
Too many late nights... :sry:
Post by: Bean Counter on October 13, 2015, 04:29:47 PM
It's a management tool Bean, and in this case I'd say it's like using a sledge hammer to tighten the little screw coming lose on your eyeglasses. Wrong tool at the wrong time.
There ya go! :yeah:
Ok gotcha.
Again, I didn't read this whole discussion and know jack squat about wildlife management, so most of my knowledge is conjecture and such.
I had the understanding that buck deer much like bull elk can only 'service' so many does and if say the ratio is 1:10 or more diluted than that then there's a surplus of does, so to speak. if some wouldn't be bred anyway, my guess is that the herd growth wouldn't be affected to sell a few doe permit here and there. Not sure where that fits into the discussion with the Methow herd if at all.
Post by: bigmacc on October 13, 2015, 06:16:51 PM
I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.
IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year :dunno:), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us... :twocents:
Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable. Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc. Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.
But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters. If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.
Sitka, I don't think anyone expects this herd to get back to its "glory days", that is unrealistic IMO. I used those numbers to show you what this herd was at one time and to show you the extent of the decline. Those numbers were pretty consistant(give or take) for a long time, the range sustained the herd fine. As I said in another post, we all know there are factors contributing to "swings" and decreases from time to time and no one said or expects that herd to hold consistently at 30 to 40 thousand animals(come on!) but a lot of folks who know this valley and have put in a lot of time and put a lot of miles in it (which you said you have not) see the continued tail spin in the herd, along with a population boom in a whole assortment of predators! This just didn't happen yesterday, its not something that was noticed in the last couple years its been ongoing over the last decade or so at least and every year we are seeing less and less deer in prime areas that should hold deer and HAVE held deer for a hundred years. What management,s been doing to stop the decline and help the herd through "swings" and a long term, consistant decrease in numbers, you guessed it- kill more does! As bone said "wrong tool at the wrong time". If this mindset by management continues don't for a second blame the folks who are not using there doe tags for a "lack of opportunity" or a "shrinking hunter base" because there may not be enough deer to hunt for any one, bucks or does....as always, my opinion and my :twocents:
Post by: bigmacc on October 13, 2015, 06:22:21 PM
That used to be my dating strategy.... "lower your standards and up your odds!"
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:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 13, 2015, 09:04:06 PM
Post by: boneaddict on October 14, 2015, 07:16:20 AM
Good one.
Too many late nights... :sry:
Don't feel bad, it was quite believable. :chuckle: In fact, I bet he uses it. Lol
Post by: Chad Osterholtz on October 14, 2015, 03:59:42 PM
That used to be my dating strategy.... "lower your standards and up your odds!"
HA! That's how I met my first wife!
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 14, 2015, 10:15:27 PM
Curious what the harvest rates have done over the last several years. Given the apparent decline in the herd, I assume harvest rates have seen an equal decline? :dunno: I remember it being pretty tough going many moons ago when I hunted out of Twisp and Winthrop as a kid in the mid 80's. I recall harvest rates in the 15-20% range back then, not sure what they are now. I assume less than 10%?
From the Department's District 6 Hunting Prospects. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2015/district06.pdf
In 2014
"General season hunters harvested 2780 deer from the ten game management units comprising District 6. This represents an increase of
35% over the 2013 season despite the disruptive effects of the Carlton Complex Fire. Similarly, general season success rates improved noticeably as well and ended up as follows: Modern – 20%, Muzzleloader – 28%, Archery – 33%, and Mulit – 31%."
Additionally........
"Prospects for mule deer look excellent this year. Better than average recruitment in recent years indicates a growing herd, and
high buck escapement observed during surveys last winter means hunters should have good opportunities to harvest older age class bucks. The end date for the general modern firearm season is the latest it’s been in years, so mule deer may begin migrating toward winter range
(southerly facing slopes at lower elevations) during the later portion of that season. If so, this will start to concentrate deer in more accessible areas and improve hunters chances of locating legal bucks."
Post by: grundy53 on October 14, 2015, 10:23:27 PM
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Post by: Bob33 on October 14, 2015, 10:32:29 PM
From the Department's District 6 Hunting Prospects. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2015/district06.pdfDamn. Guess I need to grow one.
In 2014
Mulit – 31%."
Post by: huntnphool on October 14, 2015, 10:44:03 PM
From the Department's District 6 Hunting Prospects. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2015/district06.pdfDamn. Guess I need to grow one.
In 2014
Mulit – 31%."
:chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on October 15, 2015, 02:55:07 PM
From the Department's District 6 Hunting Prospects. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2015/district06.pdfDamn. Guess I need to grow one.
>:(
In 2014
Mulit – 31%."
:chuckle:
Must of been the Joe Dirt crew, heard they had a heck of a year... ;)
Post by: bigmacc on October 15, 2015, 03:19:12 PM
Curious what the harvest rates have done over the last several years. Given the apparent decline in the herd, I assume harvest rates have seen an equal decline? :dunno: I remember it being pretty tough going many moons ago when I hunted out of Twisp and Winthrop as a kid in the mid 80's. I recall harvest rates in the 15-20% range back then, not sure what they are now. I assume less than 10%?
From the Department's District 6 Hunting Prospects. http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/prospects/2015/district06.pdf
In 2014
"General season hunters harvested 2780 deer from the ten game management units comprising District 6. This represents an increase of
35% over the 2013 season despite the disruptive effects of the Carlton Complex Fire. Similarly, general season success rates improved noticeably as well and ended up as follows: Modern – 20%, Muzzleloader – 28%, Archery – 33%, and Mulit – 31%."
Additionally........
"Prospects for mule deer look excellent this year. Better than average recruitment in recent years indicates a growing herd, and
high buck escapement observed during surveys last winter means hunters should have good opportunities to harvest older age class bucks. The end date for the general modern firearm season is the latest it’s been in years, so mule deer may begin migrating toward winter range
(southerly facing slopes at lower elevations) during the later portion of that season. If so, this will start to concentrate deer in more accessible areas and improve hunters chances of locating legal bucks."
Sitka, "I got some,ocean front property in Arizona....and if you,ll buy that I,ll throw the Golden gate in free"....love George Straight....so does the dept. I,m guessing!...at least as far as the Methow is concerned :'(...And hey, We got some tags for sale too! Hurry they wont last long! Get em while their hot! Set it and forget it!......Are they possibly selling us an old fashioned "bill of goods"?.. :dunno:
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 15, 2015, 10:17:09 PM
Was there a drop in hunter numbers?
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9863 hunters in 2013 with a 14.2% success rate for general modern (buck) season.
9309 hunters in 2014 with a 19.5% success rate for general modern (buck) season. [doe tags are permit hunts and not included in totals.]
For comparison, I just eyeballed the numbers for 2003. Looks like about 10K hunters with a blended percentage rate among the units of 17-18%.
Post by: wolfbait on October 16, 2015, 07:08:03 PM
Was there a drop in hunter numbers?
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9863 hunters in 2013 with a 14.2% success rate for general modern (buck) season.
9309 hunters in 2014 with a 19.5% success rate for general modern (buck) season. [doe tags are permit hunts and not included in totals.]
For comparison, I just eyeballed the numbers for 2003. Looks like about 10K hunters with a blended percentage rate among the units of 17-18%.
Every season will be a better season then the last, right up to the point where there is nothing left to hunt, look at the Lolo elk herd as an example, but worse.
It's a numbers and BS game.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 16, 2015, 07:25:27 PM
Was there a drop in hunter numbers?
Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk
9863 hunters in 2013 with a 14.2% success rate for general modern (buck) season.
9309 hunters in 2014 with a 19.5% success rate for general modern (buck) season. [doe tags are permit hunts and not included in totals.]
For comparison, I just eyeballed the numbers for 2003. Looks like about 10K hunters with a blended percentage rate among the units of 17-18%.
Every season will be a better season then the last, right up to the point where there is nothing left to hunt, look at the Lolo elk herd as an example, but worse.
It's a numbers and BS game.
The Lolo herd would benefit from a big fire.
Post by: grundy53 on October 16, 2015, 07:26:30 PM
And less wolves...Was there a drop in hunter numbers?
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9863 hunters in 2013 with a 14.2% success rate for general modern (buck) season.
9309 hunters in 2014 with a 19.5% success rate for general modern (buck) season. [doe tags are permit hunts and not included in totals.]
For comparison, I just eyeballed the numbers for 2003. Looks like about 10K hunters with a blended percentage rate among the units of 17-18%.
Every season will be a better season then the last, right up to the point where there is nothing left to hunt, look at the Lolo elk herd as an example, but worse.
It's a numbers and BS game.
The Lolo herd would benefit from a big fire.
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Post by: mkcj on October 16, 2015, 07:45:01 PM
Post by: steen on October 16, 2015, 09:15:06 PM
We have 3 of the doe tags and are staying on the Westside. My daughter was so looking forward to this hunt prior to the fires and the redraw. It was going to be a chance to harvest some good eating whitetails but now are staying home hunting local.
Bummer. I'd take her if I had all the time in the world. Nothing better than taking a kid hunting on a high percentage hunt and give them the best chance they can have. Took 4 of my daughters on hunting like this and it was so rewarding to see which enjoyed the hunt for what it was and which decided then would not take a doe this year!
Post by: Tbar on October 16, 2015, 09:21:53 PM
:tup:We have 3 of the doe tags and are staying on the Westside. My daughter was so looking forward to this hunt prior to the fires and the redraw. It was going to be a chance to harvest some good eating whitetails but now are staying home hunting local.
Bummer. I'd take her if I had all the time in the world. Nothing better than taking a kid hunting on a high percentage hunt and give them the best chance they can have. Took 4 of my daughters on hunting like this and it was so rewarding to see which enjoyed the hunt for what it was and which decided then would not take a doe this year!
She did well last year. I guess you could call or blacktail hunts high percentage hunts. Our time in the Methow is as much to see family as it is a hunt.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 24, 2015, 06:10:59 PM
Boy they are nailing some big bucks this year and still 3 more days to go. Gonna be a little tougher for my late hunt in 8 days.
How can that be with all the mismanagement I keep reading about on the internet? Somebody must be yanking your chain.
Post by: wsmnut on October 27, 2015, 08:05:58 PM
because Elk is about to open.
Thomsen's Meats in Twisp has triple the amount of deer. Fitkin is going to be gloating all over the newspapers about the marvelous success rates. It just took several hundred square miles of fire to concentrate the deer for him.
I guess I should be happy that the sage and bitter brush will grow uneaten next year.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 27, 2015, 09:10:12 PM
Just tried to take my wife's Methow 3 pt to Lind's Meats in Kent. Mike Lind refused it. They are full. No room for another deer. He said it had never happened like this before. He's been turning deer away for three days. He's hoping to get caught up
because Elk is about to open.
Thomsen's Meats in Twisp has triple the amount of deer. Fitkin is going to be gloating all over the newspapers about the marvelous success rates. It just took several hundred square miles of fire to concentrate the deer for him.
I guess I should be happy that the sage and bitter brush will grow uneaten next year.
Haha Complain when you don't get anything and complain when the hunting is great. No wonder managers can't please anyone. Might as well shoot them all to starve the wolves that are suppressing the deer herd too.
When are you guys gonna admit that maybe the managers know more about what they are doing than you do?
Post by: mountainman on October 27, 2015, 09:21:01 PM
sitka, as the comment states, it has nothing to do with managment, or mis-management, but everything to do with burnt ground. Stir elsewhere..Just tried to take my wife's Methow 3 pt to Lind's Meats in Kent. Mike Lind refused it. They are full. No room for another deer. He said it had never happened like this before. He's been turning deer away for three days. He's hoping to get caught up
because Elk is about to open.
Thomsen's Meats in Twisp has triple the amount of deer. Fitkin is going to be gloating all over the newspapers about the marvelous success rates. It just took several hundred square miles of fire to concentrate the deer for him.
I guess I should be happy that the sage and bitter brush will grow uneaten next year.
Haha Complain when you don't get anything and complain when the hunting is great. No wonder managers can't please anyone. Might as well shoot them all to starve the wolves that are suppressing the deer herd too.
When are you guys gonna admit that maybe the managers know more about what they are doing than you do?
Post by: 2labs on October 27, 2015, 09:24:05 PM
Post by: Cascade on October 27, 2015, 09:42:14 PM
Fishing at banks got really good when they drained it :dunno:
Duck hunting on Royal creek is amazing when the reserve freezes and the creek is the only open water!
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Post by: idahohuntr on October 27, 2015, 10:42:47 PM
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Post by: MtnMuley on October 27, 2015, 10:45:10 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 27, 2015, 10:59:29 PM
How about season dates plus 2 extra days. :dunno: Is this really rocket science? They DEFINATELY have a "better buck to doe ratio" now. Congrats to those sussessful. You'll never see another like this ever. Destroys the 93 season. :twocents:
Maybe a once in a lifetime season, but maybe not. The sad thing is, there will be people who will demand that every year should be like this year, and when it's not, they will say management isn't doing their job or will have some other complaint. Their expectations exceed reality. Reality is, you can't have all time highs every year. Part of it is the stupid TV hunting shows where unrealistic herds are created in a very controlled environment and monster bucks are created through artificial breeding and feeding programs that you will never find in the wild. It's an illusion that some believe should be the norm. Real wildlife management has it's ups and downs. Sounds like this year is up. Hopefully it will last a few years. Enjoy it while you can.
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 28, 2015, 10:26:56 AM
Post by: grundy53 on October 28, 2015, 10:32:56 AM
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Post by: boneaddict on October 28, 2015, 10:35:46 AM
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 28, 2015, 10:43:30 AM
Lack of feed and water are my guesses, and I wonder if lack of doe up high brought the rutting migrators in early as well. This was a crazy year for sure. I've never seen so many big bucks killed. Wrong year to stay home I guess. I'm afraid of future years. firkin should be thrilled spitless
I wasn't in the Methow so don't want to hijack...but, I saw an unbelievable number of small bucks - spikes, forks, small threes - in a unit not too far south. Buck to doe ratio I observed was about 1:5. I think the easy winters the last few years have really helped. On the downside, I also observed several does with visible ribs. That's not good for late October. One almost attacked me last night looking for a handout...behavior you would expect in a campground, but I was at 6,000'.
Post by: grundy53 on October 28, 2015, 10:47:29 AM
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Post by: wsmnut on October 28, 2015, 11:12:42 AM
We'll know in a few years how big of a hit this turns out to be.
Post by: skeeter 20i on October 28, 2015, 11:48:58 AM
Fishing at banks got really good when they drained it :dunno:
man "really good" doesn't quite cover it. :tup:
Post by: bigmacc on October 28, 2015, 01:38:03 PM
Lack of feed and water are my guesses, and I wonder if lack of doe up high brought the rutting migrators in early as well. This was a crazy year for sure. I've never seen so many big bucks killed. Wrong year to stay home I guess. I'm afraid of future years. firkin should be thrilled spitless
Here of a "hundred year flood", this could be a season that only comes around that often. Someone said a perfect storm for mule deer, that's on the money also. I think your hunches are right bone, I talked with a guy who said a bio told him not enough feed down low and not enough water up high, the migration was triggered early and the deer were then concentrated once they were down. this year could make a heck of a dent in the herd, a lot, and I mean a lot of great genetics were taken out of the breeding pool this season.... :twocents:
Post by: Griz231 on October 28, 2015, 01:45:33 PM
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on October 28, 2015, 01:48:02 PM
Lack of feed and water are my guesses, and I wonder if lack of doe up high brought the rutting migrators in early as well. This was a crazy year for sure. I've never seen so many big bucks killed. Wrong year to stay home I guess. I'm afraid of future years. firkin should be thrilled spitless
Here of a "hundred year flood", this could be a season that only comes around that often. Someone said a perfect storm for mule deer, that's on the money also. I think your hunches are right bone, I talked with a guy who said a bio told him not enough feed down low and not enough water up high, the migration was triggered early and the deer were then concentrated once they were down. this year could make a heck of a dent in the herd, a lot, and I mean a lot of great genetics were taken out of the breeding pool this season.... :twocents:
I hear the genetics taken out of the heard a lot. I would think that the huge bucks killed have spread there genes around for along time? Or is this the first year that they breed a doe because they got shot? Do the sperm of a buck get better with age ? Just some thoughts that make me go hum??????
Post by: Chesapeake on October 28, 2015, 01:54:54 PM
The concentrated deer and high success rates may have been aided by Methow fires, but that's certainly not the primary factor. I hunted a non-fire migration transition area, and a buddy hunted another one further south, and they both were full of deer. Early migration for some reason - dry year and lack of water and food up high maybe. Rut was going strong when I got there on 10/24. Season dates definitely helped, but again, there was something else in play here.
Yep, not just the Methow. The "Last Resort KOA" in the blues has a cooler full. They reported 35 whitetail and 33 mule deer on Oct. 20 on their Facebook page.
It was reported that the dry year pushed the bears down out of the high country early. I'm thinking the deer reacted similarly. Also they seem to be rutting a touch early. I'm guessing the fires, dry weather, last few mild winters, later than normal season dates, and touch early rut have all combined to make for a great hunting year. And now we have blue tongue in NE Washington an Northern Idaho.
Guessing we'll pay for it over the next few years.
Post by: JLS on October 28, 2015, 02:01:36 PM
this year could make a heck of a dent in the herd, a lot, and I mean a lot of great genetics were taken out of the breeding pool this season.... :twocents:
Well, the genetics also come from the does. And, unless those big bucks have never bred a doe before, the genetics certainly weren't "removed" from the breeding pool. That big buck posted was probably a 7 1/2 year old deer or older, I would guess. Odds are pretty good he's bred an average of 20 does a year, minimum, over his lifespan. By my estimation that's over 100 offspring he's put on the ground, so his genetics certainly aren't "gone".
Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2015, 02:10:40 PM
this year could make a heck of a dent in the herd, a lot, and I mean a lot of great genetics were taken out of the breeding pool this season.... :twocents:
Well, the genetics also come from the does. And, unless those big bucks have never bred a doe before, the genetics certainly weren't "removed" from the breeding pool. That big buck posted was probably a 7 1/2 year old deer or older, I would guess. Odds are pretty good he's bred an average of 20 does a year, minimum, over his lifespan. By my estimation that's over 100 offspring he's put on the ground, so his genetics certainly aren't "gone".
+1 :tup:
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on October 28, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
this year could make a heck of a dent in the herd, a lot, and I mean a lot of great genetics were taken out of the breeding pool this season.... :twocents:
Well, the genetics also come from the does. And, unless those big bucks have never bred a doe before, the genetics certainly weren't "removed" from the breeding pool. That big buck posted was probably a 7 1/2 year old deer or older, I would guess. Odds are pretty good he's bred an average of 20 does a year, minimum, over his lifespan. By my estimation that's over 100 offspring he's put on the ground, so his genetics certainly aren't "gone".
That makes sence. Common sence!!!! :tup:
Post by: MtnMuley on October 28, 2015, 02:45:45 PM
Post by: Bob33 on October 28, 2015, 02:48:25 PM
Odds are pretty good he's bred an average of 20 does a year, minimum, over his lifespan. By my estimation that's over 100 offspring he's put on the ground, so his genetics certainly aren't "gone".Looks like he needs to be named "Wilt".
Post by: boneaddict on October 28, 2015, 05:13:08 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on October 28, 2015, 06:42:25 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2015, 09:00:49 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on October 28, 2015, 09:24:33 PM
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Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2015, 09:29:25 PM
If I killed some of the nice bucks taken this year those antlers would be buckled into the front seat too!!!
:chuckle:
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 28, 2015, 09:31:11 PM
What a genius
31 inch girth? or width? Or were they measuring his chest like a fish.
Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2015, 09:36:15 PM
What a genius
31 inch girth? or width? Or were they measuring his chest like a fish.
Or mass? :chuckle:
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 28, 2015, 09:40:33 PM
What a genius
31 inch girth? or width? Or were they measuring his chest like a fish.
Or mass? :chuckle:
I'd like to see THAT buck!
Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2015, 09:43:39 PM
What a genius
31 inch girth? or width? Or were they measuring his chest like a fish.
Or mass? :chuckle:
I'd like to see THAT buck!
The rack riding shotgun looks to have about 36"
Post by: no.cen.wa on October 28, 2015, 09:51:37 PM
Post by: steen on October 28, 2015, 11:17:07 PM
I will never believe anything else other than season dates being the main factor. At least those that say we need snow to move the migrators down can back off, since snow definitely wasn't a factor..
I heard lack of water up there. Which is possible. We were in the Pasayten the end of July for a week and every day the little stream got smaller and that was only in July. There was very little snow patches left already to melt into the streams. We filled all six general tags in camp the second weekend this year and all the muzzle loader tags.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 30, 2015, 09:07:32 AM
I will never believe anything else other than season dates being the main factor. At least those that say we need snow to move the migrators down can back off, since snow definitely wasn't a factor..
I heard lack of water up there. Which is possible. We were in the Pasayten the end of July for a week and every day the little stream got smaller and that was only in July. There was very little snow patches left already to melt into the streams. We filled all six general tags in camp the second weekend this year and all the muzzle loader tags.
I don't want to start a pissing match, but no way would I believe a lack of water up high is a factor. There's water all over the place up high through out the entire valley. I've personally set foot in many of those areas to prove that.
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 30, 2015, 09:28:17 AM
I will never believe anything else other than season dates being the main factor. At least those that say we need snow to move the migrators down can back off, since snow definitely wasn't a factor..
I heard lack of water up there. Which is possible. We were in the Pasayten the end of July for a week and every day the little stream got smaller and that was only in July. There was very little snow patches left already to melt into the streams. We filled all six general tags in camp the second weekend this year and all the muzzle loader tags.
I don't want to start a pissing match, but no way would I believe a lack of water up high is a factor. There's water all over the place up high through out the entire valley. I've personally set foot in many of those areas to prove that.
This year? That is what Steen is getting at I think
Post by: MtnMuley on October 30, 2015, 09:44:47 AM
I will never believe anything else other than season dates being the main factor. At least those that say we need snow to move the migrators down can back off, since snow definitely wasn't a factor..
I heard lack of water up there. Which is possible. We were in the Pasayten the end of July for a week and every day the little stream got smaller and that was only in July. There was very little snow patches left already to melt into the streams. We filled all six general tags in camp the second weekend this year and all the muzzle loader tags.
I don't want to start a pissing match, but no way would I believe a lack of water up high is a factor. There's water all over the place up high through out the entire valley. I've personally set foot in many of those areas to prove that.
This year? That is what Steen is getting at I think
Yes, this year. Many times.
Post by: Jonathan_S on October 30, 2015, 10:11:12 AM
Post by: Alchase on October 30, 2015, 10:13:00 AM
Up on top of Sweetgrass there is a spring.
Post by: MtnMuley on October 30, 2015, 10:23:29 AM
Up on top of Sweetgrass there is a spring.
I was there a week ago. :tup: