Let The Methow Herd Destruction Begin

[boneaddict]

I guess the good news is, there are fewer broken headlights and dented fenders as of late along 153

[boneaddict]

It's a management tool Bean, and in this case I'd say it's like using a sledge hammer to tighten the little screw coming lose on your eyeglasses.  Wrong tool at the wrong time.

[bigmacc]

It's a management tool Bean, and in this case I'd say it's like using a sledge hammer to tighten the little screw coming lose on your eyeglasses.  Wrong tool at the wrong time.

There ya go! 

[GameHunter1959]

They keep giving out doe permits because it's free money to them. This state doesn't ever give up revenue streams...

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Boy isn't that the truth..

[300rum]

The Game Department does not believe that predators have any significant influence on wild game populations.  They will also not admit that predator control has any influence on wild game.  That is what they teach and that is how they manage. 

That is what we are living with......

[300rum]

Taken from the text from the Hunters Safety Education workbook.......

"Although they do kill animals (prey), predators don’t affect stable wildlife populations! And when the prey species increases, so do the predators."

"If we try to eliminate predators, more animals will die from other causes, including hunting, disease, and accidents."

"Many years ago, people tried to improve game populations by controlling predators. Every agency that tried killing predators discovered that the best way to manage wildlife was by adding to or improving wildlife habitat. Predator control is simply not effective as a way to increase wildlife numbers permanently."

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.

IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year ), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head  decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us...

Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable.  Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc.  Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.

But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters.  If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.

[300rum]

Allow me tell you what the Government doesn't want you to know.  Taken from one of the paragraphs in the Hunter Safety Manual....

"Many years ago, people (your Grandfathers) tried to improve game populations (and their existence) by controlling predators (Killing every Wolf, Coyote and Raptor that was caught around their livestock and chicken coop).  Every agency (infiltrated by 60's Hippies and mother earth types) that tried killing predators discovered (by sucking up the liberal attitude that man=bad) that the best way to manage wildlife (Man) was by adding to (our budget through increased taxes through license's, "special" permits, non-resident license tax increases and in general additional taxes pulled out of the air), or improving wildlife habitat (which we regularly blame the loss of due to man's encroachment into non-urban areas). Predator control is simply (if you believe otherwise, you are simple, like a "special person" simple, you just aren't quite smart enough to get it but just listen to us, we know) not effective as a way to increase wildlife numbers permanently (meaning that in truth, predator control is an ongoing issue, we need to control them now and next year and the year after that.  We really don't believe in our heart of heart's that man killing animals can possibly be any good so we can't endorse man killing anything to begin with.)."

[Jonathan_S]

Allow me tell you what the Government doesn't want you to know.

"Many years ago, people (your Grandfathers) tried to improve game populations (and their existence) by controlling predators (Killing every Wolf, Coyote and Raptor that was caught around their livestock and chicken coop).  Every agency (infiltrated by 60's Hippies and mother earth types) that tried killing predators discovered (by sucking up the liberal attitude that man=bad) that the best way to manage wildlife (Man) was by adding to (our budget through increased taxes through license's, "special" permits, non-resident license tax increases and in general additional taxes pulled out of the air), or improving wildlife habitat (which we regularly blame the loss of due to man's encroachment into non-urban areas). Predator control is simply (if you believe otherwise, you are simple, like a "special person" simple, you just aren't quite smart enough to get it but just listen to us, we know) not effective as a way to increase wildlife numbers permanently (meaning that in truth, predator control is an ongoing issue, we need to control them now and next year and the year after that.  We really don't believe in our heart of heart's that man killing animals can possibly be any good so we can't endorse man killing anything to begin with.)."

That makes my head hurt to read

[JimmyHoffa]

Was that in a newsletter from WDFW?   
Predator management is expensive when taken on by .gov agencies.  So, in times of budget cuts either spend the money culling predators or convince yourself that predators are super awesome and keep that money for other cushy projects.
The animals did fine and with abundance in Hawaii until the rats and then the mongoose showed up.  But guess they were lacking 'balance' all those years.

[grundy53]

I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.

IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year ), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head  decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us...

Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable.  Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc.  Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.

But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters.  If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.

So you're saying we should just lower our expectations so that the game department will look better and seem competent?

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

[huntnphool]

I haven't read all the comments and largely don't know wildlife biology, but I'm wondering if doe permits are always idiotic or just in the case of the Methow herd? My buddy and I just killed half a dozen antlerless animals in addition to our bucks in Wyoming, and I'd hate to think I'm a part of a decline in future opportunity.

IMHO, I don't think they are "idiotic"all together,for instance my daughter and her family live in Kentucky where the population has to be kept in check by doe harvests(I think they get a handful of does and 1 buck every year ), some states have areas with thriving,growing deer populations and can pull the plug on doe harvests if the pops decline for any number of reasons. Whats got a lot of us here scratching our heads about the Methow is numbers are no where near what they were even 10 years ago and seem to continue to get worse,as I said earlier, a 20-30 thousand head  decline since its glory days a few decades ago. The deer numbers there are simply in a tailspin for a whole lot of reasons and doe tags continue to be issued, that's whats frustrating a lot of us...

Maybe, just maybe those glory days weren't sustainable.  Too many hunters have unreal expectations based off of past numbers that can't be sustained. Instead of expecting all seasons to mirror all time highs, maybe we should just be thankful for them when they happen and enjoy it, but have more realistic expectations for the average years. Game populations are never static. Without management, they go from great highs to great lows. All good management does is take out the big swings if done properly. But there are also events that are out of the hands of managers. Extreme winter events, fires, drought, urban creep, etc.  Sometimes hunters expect too much. It's very possible that those glory years you are talking about are responsible for the direction the herd is going now. When habitat is stressed it can even affect the breeding success of the herds. Instead of throwing twins, does will have one or maybe even be barren if they aren't getting the right nutrition.

But my original point on people drawing tags they have no intention of using is that the largest contributing factor of a shrinking hunter base is lack of opportunity and loss of access. It gets to the point where people will just give up. Hunters don't help that by taking away opportunity from other hunters no matter how well intentioned their reasons for doing it. Doe hunts can be fun and encouraging to young and new hunters.  If the managers decide there is a reason to have doe hunts, then I'm all for people getting the opportunity.

So you're saying we should just lower our expectations so that the game department will look better and seem competent?

 Isn't that the liberal motto for everything in Utopia?

[grundy53]

That used to be my dating strategy.... "lower your standards and up your odds!"

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

[wsmnut]

I think Fitkin has lately been using a strategy of "managed results".  He reports success rates relative to the number of hunters.  So it's always good!  That will work for him right down to the last doe.
     I am almost looking forward to the annual BS blast from him contained in the Methow Valley News.  Should be an article quoting him out Thursday.  Or maybe next week reporting on this weekends marvelous success rate.

[huntnphool]

I think Fitkin has lately been using a strategy of "managed results".  He reports success rates relative to the number of hunters.  So it's always good!  That will work for him right down to the last doe.
     I am almost looking forward to the annual BS blast from him contained in the Methow Valley News.  Should be an article quoting him out Thursday.  Or maybe next week reporting on this weekends marvelous success rate.

" The hunters asked for a longer season, we heard their requests and answered. As a result the success rate has been marvelous and the herd looks to have rebounded nicely from last year's fires and emergency management decisions."