Post by: finnman on December 15, 2008, 03:50:33 PM
The site says it all!
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID20/564.html
Post by: croix on December 15, 2008, 03:58:28 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 15, 2008, 03:59:25 PM
Post by: 270Shooter on December 15, 2008, 04:02:52 PM
Post by: HawkenBob on December 15, 2008, 04:05:03 PM
On a similar note, my bud Rich has a severly souped up RUM. Although I agree more with huntiphool, he took a Anty in MT this year at a ranged 813 yards. 13.5' raise and 2 feet of wind drift. Took 2 shots. First one did not hit the animal. Drift was wrong.
But what do these animals suffer?
Slow death probably...
Its all about the shot to them I guess...
Post by: rasbo on December 15, 2008, 04:12:26 PM
Post by: Lowedog on December 15, 2008, 04:15:33 PM
Extreme ranges to say the least!
-Lowedog
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 15, 2008, 04:45:44 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on December 15, 2008, 06:30:38 PM
sad and thats not even that big of a buck, maybe it looked bigger from 1/2 mile away?
Its a blacktail.... and a monster one.
Michael
Post by: bobcat on December 15, 2008, 08:15:55 PM
Post by: dbllunger on December 15, 2008, 08:19:43 PM
Post by: haugenna on December 15, 2008, 09:28:09 PM
I have spoken to a few long range hunters who take two shots. One at an object close to the animal with a spotter to determine drift. The second one at the animal with a better calculation of drift. The key is having a good or multiple spotter(s)
Right or wrong, a skilled shooter is a remarkable sight to see in action.
Here is the range I shoot at. You can see the white spec in the distance. That is a 4x6 piece of white poster board. Sure is a lot of fun!!!!
Post by: haugenna on December 15, 2008, 09:33:30 PM
I can't beleive someone would post this! :dunno:
The site says it all!
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID20/564.html
The only thing that first picture is missing is Heath Ledger.
Looks a little broke back :ass:
Post by: runniNgunnin on December 15, 2008, 10:06:19 PM
Post by: boneaddict on December 15, 2008, 10:11:01 PM
Post by: G.R.K on December 15, 2008, 10:38:55 PM
Post by: runniNgunnin on December 15, 2008, 11:24:05 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 12:01:22 AM
Post by: TeacherMan on December 16, 2008, 07:05:17 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on December 16, 2008, 07:16:43 AM
Post by: AOD on December 16, 2008, 10:17:55 AM
Post by: PacificNWhunter on December 16, 2008, 10:30:17 AM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 10:42:02 AM
Post by: Colville on December 16, 2008, 11:47:34 AM
If I buy a box of ammo and give it to the 1000+ yard shooter, in the field, with a field rest etc can he put 19 of those 20 in a paper plate?
90-95% likelihood of a hit seems the right success rate for shots on live big game before you pull the trigger. Almost every time I've asked this question of these shooters the answer is... silence. If that guy can do it, well done and good for him.
It's my experience that while these guys can in fact hit that paper plate that they are willing to accept an unacceptable likelihood of missing. They know they can hit it but many will accept 6 or 7 in 10 hits, or less.
The question in the end isn't the yardage. It's how far out can you continually and predictably make vital hit 90+% of the shots not just the one you show up to tell us you made. Someone else here may take issue with 90% but that's where the real debate lies, not in the exact yardage.
I'd love some of these guys to put up some u-tubes of a 20 round set in the field on a paper plate at 1000. I think it'd prove very interesting.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 11:56:35 AM
Post by: NoBark on December 16, 2008, 12:26:40 PM
I've noticed that generally speaking, the young guns 30 and under tend to fall into the first and the older crowd tends toward the latter. It will be interesting to see if they change with age or carry the mentallity with them into older age.
I'm an old fart, I'm not impressed with long range hunting. Save it for the range. Can't figure out what's sporting about shooting an animal from a different mountain.
Post by: haugenna on December 16, 2008, 01:24:01 PM
Here's my question:
If I buy a box of ammo and give it to the 1000+ yard shooter, in the field, with a field rest etc can he put 19 of those 20 in a paper plate?
The very first line is the biggest mistake. Buying a box of ammo.
I am just shooting at paper but to do shoot effectively at 1000 yards, you need to take your whole game to the next level, equipment, practice, preparation, and committment. I reload all my ammo. Fireform the brass to my chamber, trim each case to the same size, weigh the bullets, powder, and brass to make sure each round is almost identical. Measure the runout of the bullet to very tight tolerances, .002 or better. This is all after spending lots of hours at the range and reloading bench to find the right bullet powder combination. We practice at the range on a portable bench and on a bipod to duplicate field conditions.
Most people don't come close to this preparation. That is why their max is 300-350. I have left a lot of things out as well. Too many to remember and list.
This is all for shooting paper though! It is a lot of fun when it all comes together.
Post by: AOD on December 16, 2008, 02:08:23 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 02:16:26 PM
Hoyt, pretty much the same thing in the archery world too wouldn't you say? Some guys think it's all about being as accurate as you can from as far away as you can. While others think it's all about being as being as sneaky as you can and getting as close as you can.
I've noticed that generally speaking, the young guns 30 and under tend to fall into the first and the older crowd tends toward the latter. It will be interesting to see if they change with age or carry the mentallity with them into older age.
I'm an old fart, I'm not impressed with long range hunting. Save it for the range. Can't figure out what's sporting about shooting an animal from a different mountain.
I agree with you, Im a little bit of both, I shoot out to what most would call long range 80-100 with my bow all the time and have a 80yrd pin on my hunting bow and would use it in the right situation, however 80yrds being a long long shot for most with a bow is still 80yrds.. not 1000yrds like long range rifle guys clain to be good enough at to kill deer and elk all the time, im over 90% accurate at those ranges year after year and will continue to have a 80yrd pin until im not, i have never used the 80yrd pin yet and hope to not have to but its there.. and there is NOTHING sporting about shooting a animal from the other mountain. I could get into my opinions on that sort of "hunting" but some might take it thw wrong way or get upset at my opinion.. but yes alot of guys these days push the limits with archery equipment... Im all about getting close and really "hunting" the animal but alot of where I hunt is very open and 50-70yrds is close.....
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 02:21:28 PM
ETHICS, ETHICS. STICK THROWERS WEAR SCENT-LOK CLOTHING, USE TREE STANDS AND COVER SCENT, BAIT BLOCKS, ECT. HOW IS THAT MORE FAIR THAN A LONG RANGE SHOT THROUGH A TARGETS VITALS? YOU GUYS CAN DO WHAT GETS YOU OFF AND WE LONG RANGE BOMBERS WILL KEEP KILLING THE STUFF YOU CAN'T GET TO.
Archers wear scent lok clothing because we HAVE TO.. even with the best scent free technology the winds shift and our stand or set up is ruined... soime do use bait, i do at certain times.. how is that more fair then shooting a deer from 1000yrds? thats easy.... at that distance scent concelmeant really is no issue, neither is movement, noise and any other variable that in a "normal" archery distance would end your hunt while you watch the animal trot away... and as far as keep killing stuff we cant get to? obviously you guys cant seem to get any closer either, which at those ranges is laughable to me because what other reason is there for a 1000yrd shot? other then ego of course...
Post by: rougheye on December 16, 2008, 02:22:12 PM
ETHICS, ETHICS. STICK THROWERS WEAR SCENT-LOK CLOTHING, USE TREE STANDS AND COVER SCENT, BAIT BLOCKS, ECT. HOW IS THAT MORE FAIR THAN A LONG RANGE SHOT THROUGH A TARGETS VITALS? YOU GUYS CAN DO WHAT GETS YOU OFF AND WE LONG RANGE BOMBERS WILL KEEP KILLING THE STUFF YOU CAN'T GET TO.WOW , last i checked rifle hunters are aloud to use all that stuff too . But to each his own , if thats huntin to you than all right . To me it is the thrill of the chase and duping a big buck on his own turf . Usually that means getting within 30-40 yards . I know it is hard to put it all together that close but that is what i enjoy about hunting . I dint punch my deer tag this year for the first time in a long time but i sure had fun trying . It was a succesful year of hunting for me . When i do get a deer , i dont marvil at my shot because its the hunt for me . :chuckle:
Post by: AOD on December 16, 2008, 02:32:00 PM
Post by: Intruder on December 16, 2008, 02:38:50 PM
I do think that there are far too many guys shooting beyond their capabilities be it w/ bow or rifle. Yes the super mags unfortunately make many guys feel they are more capable just as the 320 fps bows do too. Under no circumstance is there any substitute for practice and conservative judgement.
Post by: JoshT on December 16, 2008, 02:41:59 PM
Misses happen, I know... I have one! But bad hits are bad hits no matter the weapon or the range. I spend more time shooting my .300 RUM every year than all the hunters I know combined spend at the range. I shoot at long range, out to 1K or so... and I know that anything within about 1/2 a mile is in serious jeopardy of getting clobbered. I also feel that I'm much more in-touch with my limitations than the average guy... I understand the effects of wind, elevation, barometric pressure, humidity, and shot angles. I know how hard my rifle hits stuff at 600, 800, and 1000... does you average hunter have a grasp on any of those things? I think not... yet it's perfectly acceptable for some Wal-Mart warrior to huck rounds at a running deer with a bore-sighted rifle... just because it's inside of some arbitrary distance that someone has deemed acceptable???? In the words of Keshawn Johnson... COME ON MAN!
Having the sand to pass on a shot that's even remotely questionable, no matter the range or weapon, seperates the real hunters from the deuche bags... I think most of us could use a little work in that area... I know I could.
Post by: Ray on December 16, 2008, 02:49:32 PM
... AND SCENT-LOK CLOTHING WASN'T NECESSARY
I didn't know scent-lok was part of the topic. But I think you were the one which alluded to some sort of aggravated comments towards archers. I think that instead of getting your point across you will alienate some people. I don't use special clothings, except to keep me warm and more dry so I suppose I measure up to your "standard" in one regard. Not that it matters to me much though.
It's important to note that many people harvest record animals using a variety of tactics. Still... Is using scent lok really a step backwards from shooting deer at say 1000 meters? I think you will have a hard time finding a large audience when comparing those items.
However I do believe that there is a greater likelihood of injuring an animal the farther the shot becomes. I would also venture to say that at some point it might just be called target shooting as opposed to hunting as well. Whatever it is - I won't shoot a deer beyond 300 yards with my rifle setup. But that doesn't mean I am an undisciplined simpleton incapable of shooting things farther than that.
Cheers
Post by: Intruder on December 16, 2008, 02:52:43 PM
Ehtics = projectile through the lungs... don't matter how it gets there. Long bow at 4 yards or 208 A-Max at 1k... as long as there's a hole through the clockwork... we're good.
Misses happen, I know... I have one! But bad hits are bad hits no matter the weapon or the range. I spend more time shooting my .300 RUM every year than all the hunters I know combined spend at the range. I shoot at long range, out to 1K or so... and I know that anything within about 1/2 a mile is in serious jeopardy of getting clobbered. I also feel that I'm much more in-touch with my limitations than the average guy... I understand the effects of wind, elevation, barometric pressure, humidity, and shot angles. I know how hard my rifle hits stuff at 600, 800, and 1000... does you average hunter have a grasp on any of those things? I think not... yet it's perfectly acceptable for some Wal-Mart warrior to huck rounds at a running deer with a bore-sighted rifle... just because it's inside of some arbitrary distance that someone has deemed acceptable???? In the words of Keshawn Johnson... COME ON MAN!
Having the sand to pass on a shot that's even remotely questionable, no matter the range or weapon, seperates the real hunters from the deuche bags... I think most of us could use a little work in that area... I know I could.
well said.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 02:53:34 PM
WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT "RIFLE HUNTERS" HERE. YOU GUYS ARE TRYING TO BAD MOUTH LONG RANGE HUNTING. ITS FUNNY, I HUNT BLACKTAIL DEER. THE ONLY SPECIES OF DEER I HAVE HARVESTED. 90% HAVE BEEN INSIDE OF 75 YARDS AND SCENT-LOK CLOTHING WASN'T NECESSARY OR USED IN ANY OF THE DOZEN + KILLS. YOU GUYS DO WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE YOU HAPPY, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT MAKES ME HAPPY. DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU TRY IT, AND IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT YOU SHOULD'NT.
it wasnt needed? what exactly makes you form that opinion? because it stood there long enough for you to shoot it? how was the wind those days, if your wind is blowing in your face it makes it much easier for all of us, also I have no desire to try it, I like to be able to be close to the game I take, on thier turf.... nothing at all seems fun about glassing and shooting game from that far...
Post by: rougheye on December 16, 2008, 02:57:52 PM
ETHICS, ETHICS. STICK THROWERS WEAR SCENT-LOK CLOTHING, USE TREE STANDS AND COVER SCENT, BAIT BLOCKS, ECT. HOW IS THAT MORE FAIR THAN A LONG RANGE SHOT THROUGH A TARGETS VITALS? YOU GUYS CAN DO WHAT GETS YOU OFF AND WE LONG RANGE BOMBERS WILL KEEP KILLING THE STUFF YOU CAN'T GET TO.
Are you a long range bomber or do you kill 90% at 75 yards ?
Post by: KillBilly on December 16, 2008, 03:03:52 PM
It has been all about everyone being an individual and Hunting as they chose within all legal and safety boundaries. What is there to criticize anyone about?
Absolutely nothing.
It is perfectly allowable and encouraged for all of you to express your opinions and personal ethics.
It goes beyond reason to try and force your methods on anyone else unless they ask you to mentor them.
There have been some uncivil comments made and that is uncalled for. We are all Gentlemen or Ladies and we all have a love for a Grand Sport.
It would virtually impossible to find any sport where all players act identical and are endowed with equal skills.
Hunting is no different let's enjoy it and enjoy each other.
Post by: M_59 on December 16, 2008, 03:05:07 PM
Post by: AOD on December 16, 2008, 03:10:11 PM
I HUNT. I ENJOY ALL METHODS OF HUNTING. I REALLY ENJOY LONG RANGE SHOOTING AND HUNTING. BUT THE BIGGEST PART OF HUNTING TO ME IS THE KILL. AND MY FAVORITE WAY TO KILL IS BEING A LONG WAYS AWAY FROM THE TARGET.
Post by: KillBilly on December 16, 2008, 03:10:44 PM
I know "hunters" that couldn't put 19/20 shots on a paper plate at 100 yds. From a rest no less. So does that make them "better" more "ethical" hunters than the precision shooters that can drop one at a 1000 yds?
Is that a rhetorical question? I hope you know the answer
Post by: rougheye on December 16, 2008, 03:13:55 PM
"YOU GUYS DO WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE YOU HAPPY, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT MAKES ME HAPPY. DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU TRY IT, AND IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT YOU SHOULD'NT."than why hunt blacktails and shoot 90 % at 75 yards or less ? :dunno:
I HUNT. I ENJOY ALL METHODS OF HUNTING. I REALLY ENJOY LONG RANGE SHOOTING AND HUNTING. BUT THE BIGGEST PART OF HUNTING TO ME IS THE KILL. AND MY FAVORITE WAY TO KILL IS BEING A LONG WAYS AWAY FROM THE TARGET.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 03:18:16 PM
"YOU GUYS DO WHAT IT TAKES TO MAKE YOU HAPPY, AND I WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT MAKES ME HAPPY. DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU TRY IT, AND IF YOU DON'T THINK YOU CAN DO IT YOU SHOULD'NT."
I HUNT. I ENJOY ALL METHODS OF HUNTING. I REALLY ENJOY LONG RANGE SHOOTING AND HUNTING. BUT THE BIGGEST PART OF HUNTING TO ME IS THE KILL. AND MY FAVORITE WAY TO KILL IS BEING A LONG WAYS AWAY FROM THE TARGET.
thats a interesting statemnt, to me you sound like its all ego.. if hunting is only about the kill then I think you are in the wrong sport., that mentailty to me could be summed up if you liked to fish, its all about the catch, I could see somone with that mindset fishing at a stocked trout pond and posting the pics, its all about the catch..... hunting is far more the the kill, or at least IMO it should be, its about time in the outdoors, working hard to scout, set up cams, and learn and respect the game we all love... but if its just about killing then I can see why your a "long range bomber" thats the easiest way to "KILL" and requires the least effort.. no need to stalk when its 2 canyons over......just :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on December 16, 2008, 03:30:03 PM
90% HAVE BEEN INSIDE OF 75 YARDS AND SCENT-LOK CLOTHING WASN'T NECESSARY OR USED IN ANY OF THE DOZEN + KILLS.
Well from someone that has never harvested a blacktail, I would sure like to see the pics of your dozen+ kills.
On a side note, welcome to the site :hello: and just an FYI "All Caps" generally denotes yelling, any chance of getting you to hit your "caps lock" button ;)
Post by: Intruder on December 16, 2008, 03:34:40 PM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 03:36:44 PM
Post by: JoshT on December 16, 2008, 03:47:28 PM
please tell me when 700yrds is the closest you can get to a animal?
Sometimes it is... and I'd rather have a 700 yard shot at a stationary animal, than a 100 yard shot at a moving critter that is aware of me!
Post by: rougheye on December 16, 2008, 03:51:01 PM
There seems to be a sentiment here that long range shooting automatically means the person doing it is whimping out or not working for their animal or not as skilled. While I'm sure that can happen I can tell you from personal experience that's not necessarily the case. The handful of folks I know who are long range hunter(myself included to a degree) work ever bit as hard as folks killing game at more traditional ranges. In the cases where I've witnessed shots out 700+ yards the circumstances dictated the shot. Stalking/getting closer wasn't an option and the work and skill in getting the animal was just as great as if they were taken at 100 yards.Not by me :chuckle: Like i said before " to each his own " Its not my cup of tea but who am i to say . When someone comes on here and throws a state ment about stick throwers , he will get a response from me :)
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 03:55:29 PM
There seems to be a sentiment here that long range shooting automatically means the person doing it is whimping out or not working for their animal or not as skilled. While I'm sure that can happen I can tell you from personal experience that's not necessarily the case. The handful of folks I know who are long range hunter(myself included to a degree) work ever bit as hard as folks killing game at more traditional ranges. In the cases where I've witnessed shots out 700+ yards the circumstances dictated the shot. Stalking/getting closer wasn't an option and the work and skill in getting the animal was just as great as if they were taken at 100 yards.
how is shooting at 700yrds the same as stalking to within 50? I dont see how you can associate the 2? and what situation would not allow anything closer then 700 yrds?
Post by: albinodeerguy on December 16, 2008, 04:18:27 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 16, 2008, 04:31:54 PM
Leave the 1000+ yard shots for military snipers. They've accomplished their mission if they blow an arm or leg of their target. It's too far for the hunter that should be looking for the clean and humane kill.
:yeah: I can only assume thats why it took him 2 shots.
Post by: NoBark on December 16, 2008, 05:03:56 PM
An amazing feat for sure, but I have a hard time knowing we are using living targets to try to out do each other... :bdid:
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 16, 2008, 05:30:49 PM
Post by: oldlogger on December 16, 2008, 06:02:01 PM
Oldlogger
Post by: Moosehunt on December 16, 2008, 06:10:53 PM
Let's not lend judgement to anyone who chooses to take game at any distance. With the right equipment and training, practice will make perfect. Practice will also determine the distance you a capable of shooting.
Post by: JoshT on December 16, 2008, 06:32:57 PM
how is shooting at 700yrds the same as stalking to within 50? I dont see how you can associate the 2? and what situation would not allow anything closer then 700 yrds?
You must not hunt the same areas as me. In my canyon country you may be able to get closer, but you won't be able to see what you're looking for when you get there. Stuff is thick, and steep... you could be within 10 yards of a bear and never be able to see it. I'm looking for a good vantage point where I can see and shoot from, if that means 8 bills... so be it. You can call it "sniping", or "shooting" if you want... but I've never seen a "sniper" hauling a 100 pound pack of bear meat 5 miles off a mountain. Come to think of it... I don't think 99% of hunters out there are willing to haul their own a$$ up a mountain, hunt hard, freeze tail, sweat off 10 pounds,and risk hide/hair to actually earn a critter. Yet... somehow... they're (you're) the ones who get to decide that shooting a deer from the hood of a truck at 100 yards is Ethical... but me hammering a bear across a canyon at 600 isn't?
I think you're kind of being a ? Hoyt... this ain't a 3-D shoot here... this is hunting. This is dead critters in the freezer and bone on the wall. If you want to hunt from a tree stand over a food plot (bait), and limit yourself to whatever range is ethical... TO YOU... then that's up to you... but quit acting like you're immune to the "questionable" shot. I hunt hard man... and I practice hard... and I'll be damned if I'll let some monkey with a sharp stick dictate what's ethical TO ME... or the guys I hunt with. Just because you'd have a better chance falling out of a tree stand and landing on a deer... than shooting one with a rifle at anything greater than sling-shot range... doesn't mean you should impose your inadequacies on others.
Post by: JoshT on December 16, 2008, 06:41:25 PM
Post by: EastWaViking on December 16, 2008, 06:50:16 PM
Just my :twocents:
Post by: NoBark on December 16, 2008, 07:00:20 PM
Like it or not, we are all apart of a fraternity of hunters. What other hunters think does have some Bering on what is expected of you and me. I would dare say, that you get pissed at some things that people with hunting licences do.
Two points...
1. If enough of a group dissaproves of an action, it often becomes a Law. Taken from the realm of 'ethics' and put in the code.
2. I admire a shot like that. Can't do it myself because I don't practice it. I would suggest that when one shoots an animal a extremely long range, he simply show the animal and say he shot it. He then can tell his friends that know him well, what the yardage was. There are a lot of young hunters who read this stuff and will go out and try it themselves no matter how much we tell them they have to practice it.
:twocents:
Post by: MuleySniper on December 16, 2008, 07:09:08 PM
MS
Post by: ICEMAN on December 16, 2008, 07:28:44 PM
I know I am biting my tongue, avoiding saying something I do not want to.
I agree with alot of what Josh T has to say here. Longer shots within your ability may have a higher chance of success than pushing forward. All depends on the terrain and your ability. Not many guys gripe when a hunter tips a coyote at extreme range, why stress the shot on a deer?
Post by: JoshT on December 16, 2008, 07:30:38 PM
1. If enough of a group dissaproves of an action, it often becomes a Law. Taken from the realm of 'ethics' and put in the code.
How about we all try not to shoot schitt in the arse? You think enough of us dissaprove of that? Agreed? Good, make it a law... now go do it however you want. Problem is... we're not talking about breaking any laws here... so lets get real.
Ethics is arbitrary... like fly guys vs. spin guys... bait vs. lures... row vs. wade (funny fishing pun)... drift boaters vs. sleds... 4-wheelers vs. hikers... the list goes on and on. There'll never be enough concensus to decide what's an "ethical legal range" inwhich to havest a particular animal... so again... COME ON MAN!
If you've practiced (and made) the shot ... with a bow, rifle, muzzle loader, blunderbus, boomerang, trained falcon, atlatl, wrist rocket, throwing stick, cannon, shotgun, crossbow, catipult, throwing knife, lance, pike, samurai sword, flying crecent-kick to heel-hook... whatever weapon you chose... you should be able to make that shot on a critter. The only person who really gets to decide if it's "ethical" or not... is you. Where ACTUAL LAWS are concerned... that's where somebody else gets to make the call. BUT..... since no laws (that we know of) were broken... no one's opinon on this guy's trophy or hunting methods should mean squat.
Post by: Antlershed on December 16, 2008, 07:32:18 PM
Josh, ethics is not just what you or I think but rather it also factors in what others think too. Part of 'ethics' comes from the group as well as the individual.I disagree with this. Everyone has their own set of ethics. There is no "universal" ethics unless somebody is forcing their ethics on you.
Quote
If enough of a group dissaproves of an action, it often becomes a Law. Taken from the realm of 'ethics' and put in the code.That is true, but there is no law that says how far you can shoot game from. I fully understand what the long range guys, the ones who actually know what they are doing, have to do in order to make that shot. Can I? Nope, but I can recognize the skill it takes to make that shot.
Post by: logger on December 16, 2008, 07:34:52 PM
Post by: Ryan on December 16, 2008, 07:44:04 PM
Post by: Ghost1941 on December 16, 2008, 07:53:36 PM
As to this...
"Leave the 1000+ yard shots for military snipers. They've accomplished their mission if they blow an arm or leg of their target. It's too far for the hunter that should be looking for the clean and humane kill."
Why take the shot if you're not going to get the red mist. Theres no military objective achieved from crippling an individual. Finish the job, or don't take the shot.
Post by: MichaelJ on December 16, 2008, 08:08:59 PM
Not many guys gripe when a hunter tips a coyote at extreme range, why stress the shot on a deer?
Thats my thought exactly! Personally i'll take a shot at a yote at rediculous ranges... Its fun trying to hit them suckers when they're on the move too! :IBCOOL:
Michael
Post by: Red Dawg on December 16, 2008, 08:31:56 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on December 16, 2008, 08:40:40 PM
Everybody is so wrapped up in the size of deer/Elk. Just enjoy your days in the field.
How many posts are there on this 1 board alone about dissapointing seasons because they didn't fill there tag? It has been a few years since I myself have harvested an animal. I have had my chances, if i decided to take a questionable shot i am sure i might have harvested 1 or 2 of those shots but they were to questionable to me. I had a bull last sat at 10 feet but he was head on looking at me through a tree. I guess i could have tried some James Bond *censored* and shot at the bull while i was in the air, but to questionable to me...
If you want to take 1000 yard shot i guess that it is your deal. But you don't have to sell it to me to make yourself feel good about your shot. I could really care less about your shot, i would rather you tell me that it was a good clean shot and it dropped in its tracks. When you tell me it ws a 1000 yard shot it makes you sound like a braggert that is all about the shot and not the hunt.
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 16, 2008, 10:02:39 PM
ya know, anybody can take and make these shots, its not hard, all ya need is a range finder and bdc. i have a 7mm-08 set up for long shooting. so far shot very accurate out to 836 yards, its really very easy, so easy a cave man can do it, but that doesn't make it right. out of the group of us that took a shot at that target at 836. the two bullseyes, were a 12 year old and a 23 year old, that had never fired a center fire rifle in their life, go figure.
i hate the fact that we have these damn TV shows such as beyond belief and that ass tred barta. what fine examples of sportsmanship. i will give it to tred on one matter, at least he shows all the arrows hes flinging at deer beyond his range and in high winds, such as caribou at 65 yards in 20 plus winds, with a long bow, that he admittedly claims (for him) is good for 25 yards or less., it is amazing however with the thirty or so missed shots with arrows, that i have seen him make, they are always complete misses, wow, an amazing feat, i'm sure he never nicks 'em or worse.
Another pain for me to listen to, and this is actually common. the excuse that my mobility is limited, bad knee, etc etc. i always beg to ask the question, if you are so impaired, just how the fk, did ya plan on retrieving your animal. Sorry for my rant, go ahead, beat me up. i'll still love ya in the morning.
Post by: boneaddict on December 16, 2008, 10:31:42 PM
I better just keep my mouth shut for once. LOL As for stick slingers verus lead pumpers, it doesn't matter AOD. An unethical shot is an unethical shot. By the way, I don't use scent lock, sit in a tree stand or use bait blocks.
Hey Michael, just remember when you are blasting away at 1000 yards a t a running coyote, its awefully hard to spot the guy or gal in snowcamo out there on the calling stand or photographing in teh heat of the moment. Just a thought.
Another thought for the long range busters. I wonder how many of you have been out hunting stalking an animal and have had some *censored* winging lead from the mountain across the way at you and or your game. I wonder if they arrogantly thought they were skilled to make the shot as well.
Not jusging by the way because I have made some dandy long range shots.
Its the ego and the arrogance that make bad things happen though.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 16, 2008, 11:08:27 PM
how is shooting at 700yrds the same as stalking to within 50? I dont see how you can associate the 2? and what situation would not allow anything closer then 700 yrds?
You must not hunt the same areas as me. In my canyon country you may be able to get closer, but you won't be able to see what you're looking for when you get there. Stuff is thick, and steep... you could be within 10 yards of a bear and never be able to see it. I'm looking for a good vantage point where I can see and shoot from, if that means 8 bills... so be it. You can call it "sniping", or "shooting" if you want... but I've never seen a "sniper" hauling a 100 pound pack of bear meat 5 miles off a mountain. Come to think of it... I don't think 99% of hunters out there are willing to haul their own a$$ up a mountain, hunt hard, freeze tail, sweat off 10 pounds,and risk hide/hair to actually earn a critter. Yet... somehow... they're (you're) the ones who get to decide that shooting a deer from the hood of a truck at 100 yards is Ethical... but me hammering a bear across a canyon at 600 isn't?
I think you're kind of being a ? Hoyt... this ain't a 3-D shoot here... this is hunting. This is dead critters in the freezer and bone on the wall. If you want to hunt from a tree stand over a food plot (bait), and limit yourself to whatever range is ethical... TO YOU... then that's up to you... but quit acting like you're immune to the "questionable" shot. I hunt hard man... and I practice hard... and I'll be damned if I'll let some monkey with a sharp stick dictate what's ethical TO ME... or the guys I hunt with. Just because you'd have a better chance falling out of a tree stand and landing on a deer... than shooting one with a rifle at anything greater than sling-shot range... doesn't mean you should impose your inadequacies on others.
I love your comments here.... I never once said shooting 100yrds over the hood of a truck is ethical, and I also hunt super thick stuff with a bow no less for elk.... My idaho pack in hunt in the wilderness near the montana border was super thick, so thick infact I did not shoot the 2 well over 300+ bulls I had within bow range (40yrds) not 600.. I also rarely ever hunt out of a treestand, I have done it 3 times so far... I prefer to spot/stalk the game..... I also have no issue earning animal.. my first bull was a 9+ mile mountain bike trip with me and a buddy... I shot him in 6 hours, then packed all the meat back to camp, then took the 100+ lb hind quarters 3 miles to the end of a Ip trail and hung them over night.. then the next day on foot I hiked out the back way 6 miles down a river bottom, crossed the rivers 6 diff times with the cape,bow and pack on my back and then went back in for the rest.... that day was over 10hrs straight with over 100lbs on my back.. I weigh 180......... as far as the rifle goes, my father was a marine sniper in the early 70's. held the record at camp pendelton for awhile back in the day, I also enlisted in the marines after hs, and before I was discharged I qualified "expert" on the range.... im not a rifle sniper but I can hold my own just fine with one, I just like to really get close and "earn" my game so I hunt with a bow
Post by: GEARHEAD on December 16, 2008, 11:39:11 PM
i am so thankful of course that he did this, as i was not aware of what i was presenting to him. that could of been very tragic. he was an incredibly responsible hunter and good man. went that extra mile, where i believe most would have not, and if you are on this site, i want to Thank you again.
Post by: boneaddict on December 17, 2008, 02:56:48 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on December 17, 2008, 05:12:55 AM
Scary story gearhead.
Post by: Chimmer10 on December 17, 2008, 06:04:38 AM
Post by: JoshT on December 17, 2008, 06:32:37 AM
Debating ethics is like trying to nail jell-o to a tree... like trying to shoot pool with a rope... like trying to get a Democrat to accept responsibility for pretty much anything.
I know I'm certainly not immune to the temptation of a questionable shot... especially on a coyote... but does that make it ok? There are two lines of thinking that I see all the time... but are never called into the 'ethics' question... those are:
"I'll take a shot at a coyote at any distance"... how is this ok, when it's not ok to do the same thing on a deer? I know... I know... coyotes are dispicable, ner'-do-well vermin... BUT, they're still a critter that deserves a clean dispatch
"I'd use "X" caliber if the conditions were perfect"... ie: .223 on deer or .25-06 on elk/bear. How is this ok? If you're willing to take a shot that's 'perfect' in this situation... doesn't that insinuate that you're willing to take a less than perfect shot with a larger caliber? Isn't that a 'questionable' ("unethical") shot... after all... it's not perfect?
I have a ton of respect for bow hunters... I still own a bow... I've killed both mule deer and elk with a bow... but I just don't enjoy shooting a bow... that's why I don't hunt with one. I took over a dozen guys to the range with me last year... and I know for a fact that I can shoot better at 600 yards... than any of those guys could shoot at 200... seriously. And, I personally know a couple of bow hunters who've lost critters recently who swear their shots where true. So I think it's fair to say that that it's the loose screw behind the trigger... or dull stick behind the sharp one... that ultimately decides where the projectile ends up... and how effective it is when it gets there.
At the end of the day what matters is a clean dispatch of critter... period. Just don't call what I do 'unethical'... you can question it all you want.
Post by: Colville on December 17, 2008, 07:01:39 AM
Can you make that 1000+ shot 18 or 19 times in 20? If not what rate of missing is acceptable on living targets? Noting that Bone has a hell of a point about what you can't see at 1000 yards, we'll leave that one alone for the time being.
This is not a gun/bow question. It's not a 100 yard 1000 yard question. The question of ethics is how much compromise a person accepts for the shot he's willing to take. Everyone get's to draw that line. I draw it at 90%+. No one has suggested that the guy in question at 1073 was or would be able to meet a very high standard for rate of kill zone hits.
The ethics don't lie in the methods. They lie in the willingness to take dice toss shots and make big compromises. If you can make that shot at 90%, you're fine with me. If not, not, whatever the range. Not that it means I have to agree with those shots, I can still think they are asinine, if not the shooter an ass.
Post by: deaddog on December 17, 2008, 08:04:01 AM
I would have to agree with every point you made here josh, well spoken.how is shooting at 700yrds the same as stalking to within 50? I dont see how you can associate the 2? and what situation would not allow anything closer then 700 yrds?
You must not hunt the same areas as me. In my canyon country you may be able to get closer, but you won't be able to see what you're looking for when you get there. Stuff is thick, and steep... you could be within 10 yards of a bear and never be able to see it. I'm looking for a good vantage point where I can see and shoot from, if that means 8 bills... so be it. You can call it "sniping", or "shooting" if you want... but I've never seen a "sniper" hauling a 100 pound pack of bear meat 5 miles off a mountain. Come to think of it... I don't think 99% of hunters out there are willing to haul their own a$$ up a mountain, hunt hard, freeze tail, sweat off 10 pounds,and risk hide/hair to actually earn a critter. Yet... somehow... they're (you're) the ones who get to decide that shooting a deer from the hood of a truck at 100 yards is Ethical... but me hammering a bear across a canyon at 600 isn't?
I think you're kind of being a ? Hoyt... this ain't a 3-D shoot here... this is hunting. This is dead critters in the freezer and bone on the wall. If you want to hunt from a tree stand over a food plot (bait), and limit yourself to whatever range is ethical... TO YOU... then that's up to you... but quit acting like you're immune to the "questionable" shot. I hunt hard man... and I practice hard... and I'll be damned if I'll let some monkey with a sharp stick dictate what's ethical TO ME... or the guys I hunt with. Just because you'd have a better chance falling out of a tree stand and landing on a deer... than shooting one with a rifle at anything greater than sling-shot range... doesn't mean you should impose your inadequacies on others.
Post by: rasbo on December 17, 2008, 08:24:31 AM
Post by: Intruder on December 17, 2008, 08:32:37 AM
I mean no disrespect but there are a lot of people bashing long range shooting that don't know anything about it other than they think it is wrong. I'm not trying to convince anyone to go out and take it up but I think it is pretty closed minded to make your decision about it based on limited info or a couple Youtube vids.
I'm not condoning anyone shooting past their capabilities. There are probably more folks doing that now thinking technology can make up for practice and hard work. I think people's ire should be directed more to those folks than to a general category of hunter. A buddy of mine just relayed a story to me about a guy who over the last 4 years has wounded and lost at least 6 deer with a bow.... 2 this year. That means we should outlaw bows right? Hell no, apart from the guy being a total prick it really doesn't mean anything.
As far as the earlier question regarding getting closer than 700 yards. I've hunted tons of places where in the particular situation it isn't practical based on terrain, time of day, etc to get closer than that.
Post by: cascademountainhunter on December 17, 2008, 08:39:09 AM
Post by: Wenatcheejay on December 17, 2008, 08:49:35 AM
STOP EATING OUR OWN
Post by: runamuk on December 17, 2008, 08:50:58 AM
I once drove 30 miles for a shot,they kept loading the chamber and before I knew I was feeling like a rock star and damn good looking! :dunno: :chuckle: :chuckle:
:chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: GoldTip on December 17, 2008, 09:05:51 AM
Post by: AOD on December 17, 2008, 09:12:42 AM
Post by: Ray on December 17, 2008, 09:18:22 AM
When we give an example of someone taking long shots and having to take multiple shots - there can be two sides to perception. A cynic will say that they needed two shots because bullet penetration was not at it's maximum due to excessive range. Or possibly that the first bullet was not a kill shot but the second one was. Sometimes it takes more than one shot though...
Ayway I don't have a problem with people taking long shots a majority of the time. I can also criticize them how I choose. It doesn't make me a bad person to do that. It just makes it clear where I stand is all.
Post by: Intruder on December 17, 2008, 09:20:46 AM
"Bow Hunters wound and waste to much game," "Rifle Hunters are lazy," "Muzzle Rifle Hunters steal hunting seasons," "Shooting a bow passed 20 yards is unethical," "Shooting a Muzzleloader passed 50 yards is unethical", "Shooting a Modern Rifle passed 100 yards is unethical, "Hunting in the Rut is unfair," "Hunting during the summer is unethical," "Trophy Hunting is unethical it takes out the best breeding animals," "Hunting does or cows is lazy because you can't get a buck or bull," "Hunting during the winter when animals are trying to survive is unethical," "Private Property hunting is unfair," "Using an outfitter is not really hunting, you must DYI to be an ethical hunter," "Special Tags is unsportsman like," Using an ATV is cheating," "Roadhunting is wrong," "Using any modern technology is being lazy, unethical, and not being a sportsman," "Guns must have a sporting purpose," "More than two shells is lazy," "More than one shot is lazy," "If you ever miss a shot, even at the range you should not hunt," "Using leadshot is killing the earth, and poisoning everyone."
STOP EATING OUR OWN
Here here.... there are a lot better things to focus our energy on. Respectful debate is one thing... I luv drinkin a couple beers an discussing the merits of A vs. B. However, we need to be careful when it comes labeling things and dividing us as hunters.
Post by: AOD on December 17, 2008, 09:32:14 AM
from my experience one of the objectives of hunting is recovering your animal. when shooting at extended ranges, most long range shooters would agree that recovering a animal in a known location is easier than blood trailing one to a unknown location. i thin using the words "don't understand" is quite mellow, when you look at the facts. you can guess and try to predict all you want, but in the end we know what this equation adds up to. :P
Post by: Ray on December 17, 2008, 09:35:07 AM
Anyway I don't agree that everyone who doesn't share your opinion is not "getting it" or not "able to understand what it takes to recover their animal". I'll assume you are not very good at explaining your point of view.
Post by: groundhog on December 17, 2008, 09:43:10 AM
Hoyt is bashing long range rifle hunters yet he has an 80 yard pin? That makes no sense what so ever. Maybe I am just old school but 80 yards with a bow seems like an 800 yard shot with Josh's custom rifle. Both shots could be made with the right conditions and the right person behind the right weapon. Personally I would never shoot at 80 yards with my bow or 800 with my rifle at an animal. That is just me. I would never attempt to put my shooting limits on someone else.
Too each his own but my effective hunting range with my bow or rifle is considerably less than my effective target range.
Oh and by the way, as long as I am giving my opinion. Tred Barta is an idiot and a poor representative for bow hunters.
Remember guys we can discuss this stuff but in the end we all need to stick together. The antis love it when we fight amongst ourselves. United we stand divided we fall.
Post by: Antlershed on December 17, 2008, 09:54:45 AM
Post by: EastWaViking on December 17, 2008, 09:58:02 AM
(my farthest pin is a 60 yard pin and I hope to never use it)
I had a 50 yard pin and "hoped to never use it" Taking it off was the best option for me.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 17, 2008, 10:08:24 AM
Post by: JoshT on December 17, 2008, 10:21:09 AM
and no 80yrds with a bow is not the same as 800 or farther with a gun... IMO
Wow... you're amazing... the time-of-flight difference between my 210 Berger at 800 yards... and your arrow at 80 yards... is... wait for it... .2 seconds. The wind drift on both of them is measured in feet, and small errors in range make a huge difference to both. Once again... here it is... COME ON MAN!!!. AND... I have the horsepower to break bones, and compensate for angles... you don't.
You practice at 80 yards... because it makes those 40yard shots slam-dunks. I practice at 800 so that the 400 yard shots become simple. Now... you have the 80 yard pin (I have the 800 yard dope)... under "ideal" circumstances... at a trophy animal... no wind... no cover to get closer... totally relaxed animal... unaware of your presence... do you take that shot? I know I do... but hey... I'm just the unethical ass with a boom stick, I can't possible be on your level.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 17, 2008, 10:25:47 AM
Post by: JoshT on December 17, 2008, 10:33:35 AM
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 17, 2008, 10:35:06 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on December 17, 2008, 10:42:57 AM
Oh and by the way, as long as I am giving my opinion. Tred Barta is an idiot and a poor representative for bow hunters.
:yike:
Damn groundhog, out of all this crap getting thrown, your Barta comment got me laughing the most. :chuckle: I actually like the guy. I like his willingness to fail repetitively in order to finally succeed. Screwball, yes. Funny, yes. But still very dedicated to any of his pursuits.
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 17, 2008, 10:45:18 AM
Post by: groundhog on December 17, 2008, 11:06:38 AM
Post by: Antlershed on December 17, 2008, 11:12:03 AM
I also love the guy, hes a little off but he really hunts hard and misses alot, on all his showsd I have only seen 1 or 2 shots I thought were "questionable" and that could be from camera angle etc....I see 1 or 2 questionable shots every time I watch his show. 40+ yard shots at a running Caribou, etc...
Post by: Hoytstaffshooter83 on December 17, 2008, 11:19:55 AM
Post by: haugenna on December 17, 2008, 11:56:00 AM
I have never said anything about wind drift angle etc....
If we could take wind drift out of the equation then to answer to Colville's question is yes. I could put an ethical kill shot 90% of the time up to 1000 yards. The worse conditions get the closer I need to be to be above a 90% killshot ratio. Just like any weapon, the conditions set the situation for hunters to make a responsible decision.
I like the 90% standard though.
Post by: elkaholic_74 on December 17, 2008, 01:10:06 PM
Post by: JoshT on December 17, 2008, 01:32:59 PM
I speak for most of the members in this thread when I say I'd love to see your pics of the animals you've harvested AOD.
Ohhhhhh buddy... I hope you're not talking trash here, cause if you are... it was a bad hand to call!
I'm a witness to that wall-o-bone... it's the most impressive collection of WA blacktails I've personally ever seen. The dude is 31 years old... and has at least a dozen branch antlered blackies... I've been hunting them 10+ years... I have exactly zero.