Post by: LOVEMYLABXS on August 03, 2015, 08:37:13 AM
Is this working? I see a lot of nice 2x2 bucks??
Post by: LOVEMYLABXS on August 03, 2015, 08:39:03 AM
Post by: deerhuntr4885 on August 03, 2015, 09:48:23 AM
You will here guys saying that we are allowing giant two points to breed the does because of this. That is somewhat true but this has always happened. Even back before the three point restriction I saw big two's rutting some times. Guys fear that they are passing that genetic gene down. But just being a two does not mean they always were. It is not as much about genetics as it is about age and summer forage. Most times giant two' are just regressed, older bucks and still carry great genetics (but not always).
Post by: vandeman17 on August 03, 2015, 09:55:19 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on August 03, 2015, 09:57:57 AM
Post by: GameHunter1959 on August 03, 2015, 02:34:29 PM
Last year I switched to private land and started archery hunting. I won't shoot anything smaller than a large 4 point, because I now am in a advantageous position.
Post by: James on August 03, 2015, 02:58:18 PM
I do worry sometimes that we are selectively breeding animals based on these restrictions. Deer that take more years (or never do) develop 3 points have lower hunter exposure. Elk that stay spikes longer in spike areas have a higher exposure to human hunting.
I have wondered if we should cycle between 3 point min deer areas go to 2 point only, then back again.
Post by: bobdog86 on August 03, 2015, 04:46:24 PM
Post by: coachcw on August 03, 2015, 04:54:03 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 03, 2015, 04:55:59 PM
Having said that, I really don't care for the 3 pt minimum rule, because I'd prefer an "any buck" season, but by draw only, so that the number of hunters can be regulated by GMU.
Post by: Bullkllr on August 03, 2015, 04:57:42 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 03, 2015, 04:59:20 PM
Post by: Bullkllr on August 03, 2015, 05:14:15 PM
The WDFW actually wanted to do away with the 3 point minimum, but they went with popular opinion and kept it.
What I probably should have said was that the 3x restriction lowers harvest, probably resulting in better buck numbers.
Was the other side of the coin permit only? I know there is support for the 3x rule, but a lot of mixed feelings if permits are the other option for controlling harvest. Doing away with the rule while maintaining OTC tags I would not support; permit only is probably the best idea.
Post by: swashington2128 on August 04, 2015, 01:23:24 PM
So the question is would you like to harvest more deer or better deer? Some of the comments about mature 2x2s being more common is most likely true (Whitetail hunter here). Unfortunately WDFW cannot manage the states different deer populations like a ranch in Texas growing monster whitetails. Yes, some deer with inferior antler genetics will survive and reproduce, but they are survivors and that in and of itself is good for the herd.
I also like the antler restriction because it keeps most of the hunters in other areas. I hunted over in Huckleberry the last few years and saw very few hunters because of the 4x4 restriction for whitetails. This year the restriction is gone and the area will most likely be a warzone again.
Post by: Bean Counter on August 04, 2015, 01:43:00 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 01:45:54 PM
The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?
I am ok with the restriction for the general hunt but I also think that some of the two point muleys need to be taken out. If they continue to be passed up and breed some does then those genes will continue to get passed along. I like the idea of a special permit for them, allow them to be hunted by youth or seniors etc.
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 02:09:46 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 02:24:00 PM
Those bucks are babies. Not even close to maturity.
Those in the pictures are but I have had trips in the hills around here and up north where I have seen half dozen or more heavy horned mature clean two points per day.
Post by: coachcw on August 04, 2015, 02:33:29 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 02:35:19 PM
Those bucks are babies. Not even close to maturity.
Those in the pictures are but I have had trips in the hills around here and up north where I have seen half dozen or more heavy horned mature clean two points per day.
I just meant the pictured ones.
I see a few in the hills too (not as many where I go) Do you think it is enough to bring that gene to the forefront?
Post by: grundy53 on August 04, 2015, 02:42:35 PM
The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies. The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.
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Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 02:51:22 PM
Those bucks are babies. Not even close to maturity.
Those in the pictures are but I have had trips in the hills around here and up north where I have seen half dozen or more heavy horned mature clean two points per day.
I just meant the pictured ones.
I see a few in the hills too (not as many where I go) Do you think it is enough to bring that gene to the forefront?
In some areas yes because right now the only way these big twos are dying is by old age or people mistaking them for 3 points and ditching them. I don't know if they would be a significant detriment to the herd but they for sure aren't helping. Each time they breed a doe that is one more potential for a 2 point and one less potential for a 3 point or better buck to breed that doe.
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 02:54:23 PM
The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies. The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.
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One significant difference is I don't think there are any whitetails that top out below 4 pts
Post by: carlyoungs on August 04, 2015, 02:55:16 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 04, 2015, 02:58:17 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I thought it didn't matter if the buck was a 2 point. Doesn't a percentage come from the does genetics. Like the dad of the doe was a 4 point so those genetics would be a part of the outcome?
Yes the doe genetics are just as much of a factor but they aren't visible and they aren't as fun to talk about :chuckle:
Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 03:05:11 PM
Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 03:06:32 PM
Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" :dunno:
Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 03:08:09 PM
Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" :dunno:
I wouldn't go to any buck if it were me, but I would go with at least a limited harvest of some of the two points. The big issue I see is that it opens up the possibility that most of the hunters would instead shoot immature two points that aren't the issue instead of the mature two's as intended. :dunno:
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 03:12:36 PM
I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %
Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw
Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 03:15:16 PM
Tough call :twocents:
I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %
Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw
I see a lot of big 2x2's actually but I agree with you. Maybe it would be a master hunter type hunt with the instructions of holding out for age class... heck I don't know. All I know is that I think something needs to be done to keep from a 2x2 becoming a dominant gene in some areas. :twocents:
Post by: grundy53 on August 04, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
While I agree with you there are mature whitetails that have less than 4 points.The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies. The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.
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One significant difference is I don't think there are any whitetails that top out below 4 pts
:chuckle:
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Post by: grundy53 on August 04, 2015, 03:16:27 PM
I agree.Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" :dunno:
I wouldn't go to any buck if it were me, but I would go with at least a limited harvest of some of the two points. The big issue I see is that it opens up the possibility that most of the hunters would instead shoot immature two points that aren't the issue instead of the mature two's as intended. :dunno:
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Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 03:21:23 PM
While I agree with you there are mature whitetails that have less than 4 points.The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies. The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.
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One significant difference is I don't think there are any whitetails that top out below 4 pts
:chuckle:
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F04%2Ff449a321e0f5365538467aa19e40c23c.jpg&hash=0a880e4e97ab2d4516483e3d4fe2d3fe63dc7556)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F04%2F7e60cc31250c3bdca4cb55f72c4556ec.jpg&hash=cc1a4307dfc491dc470a0544f9a9875e7b835843)
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Can't see the picture...is it that big spike?
Post by: grundy53 on August 04, 2015, 03:22:13 PM
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Post by: Jonathan_S on August 04, 2015, 03:24:52 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 04, 2015, 03:34:59 PM
Tough call :twocents:
I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %
Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw
I see a lot of big 2x2's actually but I agree with you. Maybe it would be a master hunter type hunt with the instructions of holding out for age class... heck I don't know. All I know is that I think something needs to be done to keep from a 2x2 becoming a dominant gene in some areas. :twocents:
First, is there any proof that this actually is happening? And second, as I said before, why does it matter? Is it only because it's frustrating as a hunter to see a big mature buck that can't be shot because it doesn't have the required number of points? Or is there a biological reason why mature two points are bad?
Post by: vandeman17 on August 04, 2015, 03:47:23 PM
Tough call :twocents:
I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %
Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw
I see a lot of big 2x2's actually but I agree with you. Maybe it would be a master hunter type hunt with the instructions of holding out for age class... heck I don't know. All I know is that I think something needs to be done to keep from a 2x2 becoming a dominant gene in some areas. :twocents:
First, is there any proof that this actually is happening? And second, as I said before, why does it matter? Is it only because it's frustrating as a hunter to see a big mature buck that can't be shot because it doesn't have the required number of points? Or is there a biological reason why mature two points are bad?
I can't find the article but its not so much of them being two points, its just that we are cultivating and almost growing a certain gene. It makes no difference what size it is, but more so that only one sector of the population is being passed up. Short term, not a big issue but if you do it for too long, then it becomes more of a problem because then you have effected the entire genetic pool.
Post by: gallion_t on August 04, 2015, 03:52:12 PM
As far as the 3pt restriction go I dont think you can go to any buck at all, but I am not sure a permanent 3pt rule is the best solution. Maybe switch it up 3 years when they redo the regs. 3pt restriction for 3 years, then spike and 2pt restriction 3 years. I am not a biologist by any means, but that seems it would help balance out the population a little bit.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 04, 2015, 04:04:48 PM
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on August 04, 2015, 04:06:33 PM
Post by: bobdog86 on August 04, 2015, 04:21:51 PM
Post by: bobcat on August 04, 2015, 04:26:32 PM
Post by: bobdog86 on August 04, 2015, 06:56:38 PM
There actually are permits for 2x2 only mule deer in units 133, 136, 139, and 142.Great, then the precedence is set, maybe they'll expand the permits to a couple other gmu's.
Post by: Buck Rub Jr on August 04, 2015, 09:19:06 PM
Post by: crabcreekhunter on August 04, 2015, 09:29:03 PM
Post by: Buck Rub Jr on August 04, 2015, 09:52:33 PM
Mature two points, usually once they get this mature they aren't so slick horned and usually have a third somewhere both these guys did..Those are some sweet bucks!!! I love big 2's. I've never ran across anything like those two personally. Most of the bigger ones I've seen are probably younger bucks with some good genetics. Are both those bucks from the hunt last year? I was always checking that thread to see what you guys had came up with.
Post by: GameHunter1959 on August 05, 2015, 12:14:00 AM
All my childhood hunting memories are in that GMU. I hoped to someday recreate those memories with my own kids. Probably won't happen unless the department makes some changes.
Post by: crabcreekhunter on August 05, 2015, 10:24:06 AM
Post by: kball4 on August 05, 2015, 11:57:58 AM
Post by: boneaddict on August 05, 2015, 12:07:07 PM
I often disagree with bobcat but this is a great quote.
Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
Post by: boneaddict on August 05, 2015, 12:11:07 PM
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,108832.0.html (http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,108832.0.html)
Post by: lamrith on August 05, 2015, 12:30:38 PM
Our mule deer numbers are historically low, killing off all the spikes and two points along with all the 3pt or better bucks would not help our deer one bit. Aggressive predator control however would. Kill a coyote, save a fawn!Maybe a bounty system Kill 5 predators, get another deer tag, or option to buy one?
Post by: nwwanderer on August 05, 2015, 05:48:19 PM
I have seen major changes in our local whitetail since the rule started. Many years ago I rarely saw a spike whitetail, I wondered what they were talking about in those southeast whitetail stories about spikes. We have them now, lots of them. The fawning interval continues to increase, a new born was on my driveway last week. The bucks that are breeding are not settling as many does the first cycle. That is a survival problem for the fawn and a cycle on time problem for the doe. The buck to doe ratio has improved. More inferior genetic bucks does not equal more bred does. That is not all bad, decreasing the population locally is a good thing.
Post by: huntnnw on August 05, 2015, 09:58:01 PM
Post by: csaaphill on August 05, 2015, 11:03:17 PM
why would it be it wasn't when it was that way back in the 70's and 80's so why would it be now?Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" :dunno:
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 06, 2015, 07:05:07 AM
why would it be it wasn't when it was that way back in the 70's and 80's so why would it be now?Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" :dunno:
Well I would like to point out a few theories but I was not hunting then so I will leave it to those who you might believe. Anyone? What differences exist from E Washington mule deer herds now and the 1970s...what impact would implementing an any buck rule have then vs. now?
Thanks :hello:
Post by: bobcat on August 06, 2015, 07:41:31 AM
Post by: boneaddict on August 06, 2015, 07:43:08 AM
Apples versus oranges. (70s versus now)
A lot more branched antler deer make it with the restriction. you have a lot more potential for seeing a buck now.
I've seen a lot of different versions, or studies of different models. It just depends which side you vote for. I choose deer. Believe it or not, I like them. Lol
Habitat, wolves, people, equipment, disease, you can't compare now with then. You have to manage for the future, not the past.
Post by: Jonathan_S on August 06, 2015, 07:48:24 AM
Post by: boneaddict on August 06, 2015, 07:53:36 AM
Post by: bobcat on August 06, 2015, 08:13:24 AM
Not to mention almost zero predator control now compared to in the 70's when trapping and hound hunting was legal.
Post by: JLS on August 06, 2015, 08:24:35 AM
why would it be it wasn't when it was that way back in the 70's and 80's so why would it be now?Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?
I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.
Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" :dunno:
It would be. Anyone that hunted the Palouse back in the 80s knows exactly what I'm talking about. You were lucky to see an antlered buck. A 3 point was huge.
The 3 point minimum is merely an restricting factor to allow SOME escapement of juvenile (nearly all yearling) bucks. Without it there would be units that would have almost no escapement of bucks. I'm not saying it's good or that it's bad. The only viable alternative would be to use limited permits to provide the same amount of escapement.
Post by: boneaddict on August 06, 2015, 09:30:17 AM
Post by: grundy53 on August 06, 2015, 09:34:00 PM
Post by: csaaphill on August 08, 2015, 02:04:41 AM
Lol!being agianst a restriction doen's mean your agianst deer. and no it's not apples and oranges. The question was would it be a slaughter, and no it wouldn't be since it wasnt then either.
Apples versus oranges. (70s versus now)
A lot more branched antler deer make it with the restriction. you have a lot more potential for seeing a buck now.
I've seen a lot of different versions, or studies of different models. It just depends which side you vote for. I choose deer. Believe it or not, I like them. Lol
Habitat, wolves, people, equipment, disease, you can't compare now with then. You have to manage for the future, not the past.
While you might see more buck deer doesn't mean you see more 3pt's I've been seeing the last two or more years several two pts but not very many 3pts. actually none in he mule deer family more whitetail family though.
I defence of it though at first it seemed good, but thinking they need to change it now. they said it was temporariy when they first did it not it's been almost, or over 20 years, and time for a change.
Same with the spike only restriction time to change that too.
Post by: BGLEMIN on August 08, 2015, 07:44:19 AM
Roughly 20 yrs back the state changed tactics and went draw only, limited quota, and no antler point restrictions. Herd health has increased dramatically. The biggest constraint limiting herd numbers now is the carrying capacity of suitable habitat, especially on the winter range.
Bucks from all age classes and antler configurations need to be culled. In reality having more hunters punching tags on spikes and forkies has decreased the pressure on mature buck harvest, allowing a greater number of maturing bucks to become fully matured. This also pushes the herd into having a greater genetic diversity.
From a resource competition perspective, having a plethora of little bucks does not always create a surplus of bigger bucks. Truly mature muleys are very solitary, these bucks will move away from large bachelor groups of younger bucks. So the more youngsters in an area the greater the conflict and competition for forage and cover.
These are all bucks taken by friends in the last 3 years, either harvested or shot on camera in units where any buck is legal...(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F69f3d96c53bf7806374f139eab12406f.jpg&hash=93596f4c82da3c5fd459e5f8bd09e9ccd7c05769)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F2dbf26d3744db07c4be1ff1531c1e367.jpg&hash=42c068366d7cf76026322aaf7b600a9dacadab80)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Feb3b7a1c86c16d93096f91b60375403b.jpg&hash=084e5c84e053f4b321225114f0e637248737855e)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F386c1c2f0bd8f734294969ea49d100a5.jpg&hash=9d84e838362c95cffccd8aae44f722ebf9ff8530)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F6a175fbefd0f2dce8cf383d134f44c2e.jpg&hash=17418dd6c6112f36f9284eca1be6452bf0cbe9de)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Fcf0c22f66c84d26d32f47318536122af.jpg&hash=79a9a9fd2aaca0df95e97fa5c54b7725f706db8e)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Fdef8b3aa0e3870f6b0c64c213cd7723d.jpg&hash=df17b2091f120f1546491f5858f3a85dd1698efe)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F34c6a3c6d89c593d0682dec542c959f9.jpg&hash=dd0cac2537bb3586ee88a56586a971d7418c131a)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Ffdd41e59c53f8504c317a9b4c760cd67.jpg&hash=7d3ee021b4b3539fb7d48bfa98e6215aacff662a)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F145b59d9318e477bcdf9fdc718380951.jpg&hash=99286eef2c96b3ed3f64107ab370010d4c512f61)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F744c4db717f4952897c0f8ce269da844.jpg&hash=bc965a8e6ca6f153913c06403e4a14a3bfbe36b6)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F5e8efa55ded0bcf9dd64d05fd7c0e6c9.jpg&hash=11c081d188471da20941807efe81785c1a1da6fe)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F93133943544f74941d10a4507e1db016.jpg&hash=54d63a914db6fd4250a580cd6ca2a6cdb5493f68)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F61a456ade7f0e498c83b4e6ba4f881a4.jpg&hash=0819630f34bc3c02628856f29e157859ebc6d7fe)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F0629f8ab816e2ef49783462839678805.jpg&hash=6cb86cfb03a5fa3bc515d0129fbaf5e3c0d2f5be)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F024211293d67b9ebb4ae2dc62659809c.jpg&hash=90a063ffad3186145c8bb72f54a64329b435d15a)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Fa92cd09a55d6e67b120882e87f2a570c.jpg&hash=e9a6e568fe91a8f9916d530577a377719f6f82e2)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Fc11585673ac23fd1bd1f668e313f1524.jpg&hash=2ab24d7356d3daa5a85888ce85e5f04f76318992)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F1f7655ae04c57e3b6e3c5d48090e65ed.jpg&hash=38e2d738a1231c43ede98394882437b0ea8509e5)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F6169f3f0ec2b6ccae34418c66abc4533.jpg&hash=1ad348db532d8156d8af1d23a00dc112d5b0641f)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F20f853fbe055f45630db3ec6ae2f0e2c.jpg&hash=f22c0135b676552462409a95330213779314a536)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Fe127552f76a947e9309a429fb737b729.jpg&hash=88c135b63e64134c334cec9390d64d52fa47c468)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F80473eadedd6d8efc4264af8769d611c.jpg&hash=c8f32f8b24453c3e360c0877c2f54ed46d2efa4d)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2Fbaf07d22edab92b028d9bdf988954814.jpg&hash=222e47cbac8f00f1346ff4cff2a091e7b260be3f)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F95ed66592609295a7466913852829327.jpg&hash=8750813a3b8dca9fa7d71209e9757e3dcac61ee1)(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F08%2F7a1d9d24bcf0694ae21e67aa5627a37b.jpg&hash=32175f1d25439772d152d76072ff0ef4c8cb2f10)(https://hunting-washingto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Post by: nwwanderer on August 08, 2015, 07:57:42 AM
Post by: SkookumHntr on August 08, 2015, 08:10:36 AM
Post by: 270Shooter on August 08, 2015, 09:43:14 AM
Post by: Landowner on August 08, 2015, 10:01:02 AM
Having said that, the choice of open country habitat by many mule deer seriously impacts the survival rate of mule bucks, amongst other apparent issues facing mule deer, and there just isn't many good mulie bucks here for the most part.
Post by: GameHunter1959 on August 08, 2015, 10:47:53 PM
The 3-pt restriction saved deer hunting in SE WA. Forks and spikes were the common harvest before the restriction, and there weren't many of them. The vast number of nice bucks now compared to the old days is night and day.
Having said that, the choice of open country habitat by many mule deer seriously impacts the survival rate of mule bucks, amongst other apparent issues facing mule deer, and there just isn't many good mulie bucks here for the most part.
I have hunted your area (Dayton/Marengo) for 32 straight seasons. My father 53 straight seasons. I think too many people get overly focused on the 3 point restriction being the primary factor off a positive or negative affect on the area. The only benefit I see is an extra year or two for them to live. That is; IF they don't get killed by a careless hunter who thinks they saw a third point and makes a mistake. I agree with you that years ago most the deer killed were fork horns and spike. I definitely think the 3 point restriction created bigger bucks. I don't think there are more bucks in the area. In fact; less in the public hunting areas. I think they are just bigger because the restriction helps them live a little longer. I would like to see Dayton/Marengo become draw only for all weapon types and OTC for archery with a 4 point or better restriction. Cut the doe permits down.
Post by: erk444 on August 09, 2015, 08:21:30 AM
Post by: BGLEMIN on August 09, 2015, 09:50:32 AM
Is that deer on the right in the first pic a giant spike!?
It is a huge spike...here's another shot.(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F15%2F08%2F09%2Fefb2959949bbe09551425489c088206b.jpg&hash=3775b4bef917c5db8f23d8f59f9842dac533449b)
Post by: erk444 on August 09, 2015, 12:01:31 PM
Post by: csaaphill on August 09, 2015, 02:48:39 PM
I like how Oregon does it, draw only for modern firearm and otc fir archery.Ya was going to say that too. Oregon limits the amount of hunters per unit then lets it be anybuck.
Post by: jdb on August 09, 2015, 03:08:21 PM
You will here guys saying that we are allowing giant two points to breed the does because of this. That is somewhat true but this has always happened. Even back before the three point restriction I saw big two's rutting some times. Guys fear that they are passing that genetic gene down. But just being a two does not mean they always were. It is not as much about genetics as it is about age and summer forage. Most times giant two' are just regressed, older bucks and still carry great genetics (but not always).
[/quote]no offense but most of this completely false. Deer do not always add points as they age nor do they necessarily loose points as they age. If genetically a buck is a two point he will just continue two be a bigger and bigger two point. And a typical 4 point as he ages past prine will loose tine length and girth but mature 4 point will not regress back to a two point. Like blrman said I see a lot of big twos that guys think are mature but really aren't they're just healthy with good feed and genes
Post by: Smokepole on August 11, 2015, 05:20:46 AM
It was an unpopular rule change at the time. But I think the quality of our hunts improved in time.
I hear of a lot of immature bucks getting harvested illegally. That is a problem to say the least. Maybe the best way to manage would be to shoot spikes and save the forked horns for seed. But you gotta get all hunters to slow down and be more careful. :twocents:
Post by: huntnnw on August 11, 2015, 06:24:03 AM
Post by: vandeman17 on August 11, 2015, 09:14:37 AM
Im all for draw only statewide for mule deer! we are one of the most populated states out west with mule deer, yet almost 0 mangement. There are many states out west with a fraction of our population and 10X the habitat for deer and they are draw only! makes no sense that we continue to have the seasons we do here for them.
:yeah: 100% agree
Post by: Duckslayer89 on August 11, 2015, 10:48:59 AM
Im all for draw only statewide for mule deer! we are one of the most populated states out west with mule deer, yet almost 0 mangement. There are many states out west with a fraction of our population and 10X the habitat for deer and they are draw only! makes no sense that we continue to have the seasons we do here for them.I completely agree as well. Since I've been hunting near Winthrop since I was 12 I've seen the quality tank. At least it seems that way for me. Mule deer draw only and wolf general season that's managment...
Post by: bobcat on August 11, 2015, 11:00:10 AM
Post by: grundy53 on August 11, 2015, 11:10:15 AM
I agree with draw only for mule deer, but I also think it would put a lot more pressure on blacktails and whitetails, so hunting for those species would also need to be restricted in some way.If you put in for the mulie permit then you can't get a blacktail/whitetail tag? That might help.
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Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on August 11, 2015, 11:49:21 AM
Those are all young deer. Expected to be two points. Those pics just show good fawn survival last year. Is the restriction a good thing? Now that is still a good question though. :dunno: I think that allowing them to mature an extra year or so gives them a little bit more life experience and instincts to avoid hunters better, hence living longer and larger.
You will here guys saying that we are allowing giant two points to breed the does because of this. That is somewhat true but this has always happened. Even back before the three point restriction I saw big two's rutting some times. Guys fear that they are passing that genetic gene down. But just being a two does not mean they always were. It is not as much about genetics as it is about age and summer forage. Most times giant two' are just regressed, older bucks and still carry great genetics (but not always).
Go tell that to the game farms that pay close to a half million $$$$$ for the genes of a quality buck. Genes do matter.
http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/big-game-hunting/how-much-is-a-deer-worth/
Post by: bobcat on August 11, 2015, 11:53:15 AM
I agree with draw only for mule deer, but I also think it would put a lot more pressure on blacktails and whitetails, so hunting for those species would also need to be restricted in some way.If you put in for the mulie permit then you can't get a blacktail/whitetail tag? That might help.
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Good idea.
Post by: BGLEMIN on August 11, 2015, 04:57:12 PM
Assume that 3-5 units all border each other, and these units also provide summer range as well as winter range for the same herd. Then let's assume that there are another 3-5 units that border the other block of units. Then like in grazing pastures we use a rest-rotation system.
So, the first cluster of 3-5 units would be on a limited draw with an antler point restriction for 5 years. Only mature 4pt on one side or better bucks being harvested. Meanwhile, in the other block of units, the limited quota would be restricted to does and bucks with no more than 2pt on one side. Again for 5 years.
At the end of the 5 year period, the unit blocks would switch. The units with a 4pt on one side restriction would become doe and 2pt or less restriction.
Thoughts??
Post by: jdb on August 11, 2015, 05:29:37 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on August 11, 2015, 09:49:23 PM
I think another good method to improve quality and potentially increase herd numbers would be a unit rotation system.
Assume that 3-5 units all border each other, and these units also provide summer range as well as winter range for the same herd. Then let's assume that there are another 3-5 units that border the other block of units. Then like in grazing pastures we use a rest-rotation system.
So, the first cluster of 3-5 units would be on a limited draw with an antler point restriction for 5 years. Only mature 4pt on one side or better bucks being harvested. Meanwhile, in the other block of units, the limited quota would be restricted to does and bucks with no more than 2pt on one side. Again for 5 years.
At the end of the 5 year period, the unit blocks would switch. The units with a 4pt on one side restriction would become doe and 2pt or less restriction.
Thoughts??
There'd be a lot of cheating going on. Too much temptation.
Post by: huntnnw on August 11, 2015, 09:53:08 PM
Post by: pnw_hunter17 on August 28, 2015, 07:31:37 PM
since there is 2x talk, this is my grandpas muley from last year, eye guards made it legal
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Post by: wreckerman5288 on August 28, 2015, 09:32:48 PM
I would also like to see a reduction in whitetail hunters in the field during modern firearm. I know its not a popular idea but I think there should be Eastern and Western unit tags for deer just like there is for deer. I hunt the Palouse area (where I live) and a huge amount of the hunters I meet in town and on the road the first 3-4 days of the season are west siders. A lot of these guys hunt a few days over here and if they go home buckless they hunt over there where the season is longer and the restrictions are looser. If they had to choose one side some of these guys would stay home instead of coming over here. Nothing against west siders, our camp has three of them, but there are just too damn many hunters out there. Every year I watch rampant trespassing, people shooting illegal deer, and other BS that would be less prevalent if there was less hunters. Again, I'm not blaming west siders for all this bad behavior as there are plenty of locals behaving badly as well.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on August 28, 2015, 09:36:48 PM
Post by: dscubame on August 28, 2015, 10:06:44 PM