Is a 3x restriction good?

[vandeman17]

The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?

I am ok with the restriction for the general hunt but I also think that some of the two point muleys need to be taken out. If they continue to be passed up and breed some does then those genes will continue to get passed along. I like the idea of a special permit for them, allow them to be hunted by youth or seniors etc.

[Jonathan_S]

Those bucks are babies.  Not even close to maturity.

[vandeman17]

Those bucks are babies.  Not even close to maturity.

Those in the pictures are but I have had trips in the hills around here and up north where I have seen half dozen or more heavy horned mature clean two points per day.

[coachcw]

permit only would cost a the state a ton in lost sales

[Jonathan_S]

Those bucks are babies.  Not even close to maturity.

Those in the pictures are but I have had trips in the hills around here and up north where I have seen half dozen or more heavy horned mature clean two points per day.

I just meant the pictured ones.

I see a few in the hills too (not as many where I go) Do you think it is enough to bring that gene to the forefront?

[grundy53]

The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?

The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies.  The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.

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[vandeman17]

Those bucks are babies.  Not even close to maturity.

Those in the pictures are but I have had trips in the hills around here and up north where I have seen half dozen or more heavy horned mature clean two points per day.

I just meant the pictured ones.

I see a few in the hills too (not as many where I go) Do you think it is enough to bring that gene to the forefront?

In some areas yes because right now the only way these big twos are dying is by old age or people mistaking them for 3 points and ditching them. I don't know if they would be a significant detriment to the herd but they for sure aren't helping. Each time they breed a doe that is one more potential for a 2 point and one less potential for a 3 point or better buck to breed that doe.

[Jonathan_S]

The 4 point minimum seems to have done well in the Northeast corner of WA, why not implement it for the muleys?

The 4 minimum on whitetails is basically exactly the same as a three point minimum on mulies.  The only difference is that the vast majority of whitetails have eyeguards so they had to add an extra point to the APR. generally a 4 point whitetail is a mainframe 3 point.

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One significant difference is I don't think there are any whitetails that top out below 4 pts

[carlyoungs]

I thought it didn't matter if the buck was a 2 point. Doesn't a percentage come from the does genetics. Like the dad of the doe was a 4 point so those genetics would be a part of the outcome?

[bobcat]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

[Jonathan_S]

I thought it didn't matter if the buck was a 2 point. Doesn't a percentage come from the does genetics. Like the dad of the doe was a 4 point so those genetics would be a part of the outcome?

Yes the doe genetics are just as much of a factor but they aren't visible and they aren't as fun to talk about 

[vandeman17]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.

[Jonathan_S]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.

Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" 

[vandeman17]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.

Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" 

I wouldn't go to any buck if it were me, but I would go with at least a limited harvest of some of the two points. The big issue I see is that it opens up the possibility that most of the hunters would instead shoot immature two points that aren't the issue instead of the mature two's as intended. 

[Jonathan_S]

Tough call 

I've heard a bunch of people saying it should be 2 pt minimum but in my mind that would worsen the genetics and increase yearling spike survival % and decrease the yearling forked bucks survival %

Since there are very few big 2's then it would be pretty ineffective to assign permits...particularly because most folks holding those 2x2 only tags would be looking to tip over the first 1.5 yr old buck they saw