Is a 3x restriction good?

[crabcreekhunter]

Mature two points, usually once they get this mature they aren't so slick horned and usually have a third somewhere both these guys did..

[Buck Rub Jr]

Mature two points, usually once they get this mature they aren't so slick horned and usually have a third somewhere both these guys did..

Those are some sweet bucks!!! I love big 2's. I've never ran across anything like those two personally. Most of the bigger ones I've seen are probably younger bucks with some good genetics. Are both those bucks from the hunt last year? I was always checking that thread to see what you guys had came up with.

[GameHunter1959]

I would like to see the department reduce the doe permits in Marengo. I get they don't want herds of 20-30 deer like years past, but they destroyed the Marengo deer population in the 1990s and 2000s. Not near the deer, not near the nice bucks despite the 3 point restriction. The bucks in the late 1980s and all throughout the 1990s were far bigger and more abundant. The 3 point restriction combined with the massive amount of doe permits mismanaged the GMU. I watched 4 large 2 points get shot and left to lay in 1 canyon on opening day. Found 2 others laying dead on the second day of the season. I would like to see the GMU closed for 1-3 years and re-opened as a draw only area.

All my childhood hunting memories are in that GMU. I hoped to someday recreate those memories with my own kids. Probably won't happen unless the department makes some changes.

[crabcreekhunter]

Yes those two were have seen a couple just as large during general seasons.. They are just as smart as a mature four point and that's why it is fun..

[kball4]

That's why you gotta look real close at the eye guards 1" and its a point.

[boneaddict]

I'm a huge supporter of the 3x restriction.   I grew up in the methow when this wasn't an option, and when half of it was and now.   I saw huge improvements!  And I didn't see the world come to an end either filled with two points.   Probably because Cougars wolves and subarus eat them just as easy as they do four points.


I often disagree with bobcat but this is a great quote.

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

[boneaddict]

Case in point.   This guy was eligible for harvest for probably a decade.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,108832.0.html

[lamrith]

Our mule deer numbers are historically low, killing off all the spikes and two points along with all the 3pt or better bucks would not help our deer one bit.  Aggressive predator control however would.  Kill a coyote, save a fawn!

Maybe a bounty system  Kill 5 predators, get another deer tag, or option to buy one?

[nwwanderer]

It is a better fit for mule deer than whitetail.  With either species the genetic consequence is a problem.  True, does sure do not count points but the points on those antlers is not very hereditable, the mass and width is.  First antler bucks with three points or more are likely to have more mass and width than spikes and little narrow two points when mature.  Mass is will correlated with positive male traits, the ability to settle more does.  A high % of the harvest is young and the three point rule selects those bucks with the most reproductive potential if they lived to breed.  The result is a longer fawning interval and decreased fawn survival.  The mass information is will documented with whitetail, thank you Texas, the mule deer not so much.  From just watching the fawn crop with mule deer it is likely the same.  I have no stats to prove it. 
I have seen major changes in our local whitetail since the rule started.  Many years ago I rarely saw a spike whitetail, I wondered what they were talking about in those southeast whitetail stories about spikes.  We have them now, lots of them.  The fawning interval continues to increase, a new born was on my driveway last week.  The bucks that are breeding are not settling as many does the first cycle.  That is a survival problem for the fawn and a cycle on time problem for the doe.  The buck to doe ratio has improved.  More inferior genetic bucks does not equal more bred does.  That is not all bad, decreasing the population locally is a good thing.

[huntnnw]

Babies or not.. point restrictions on mule deer creates a influx of 2 pt mule deer that will never get any bigger and breed passing it on...why units have 2pt seasons. Even primo units out west where people rarely shoot bucks smaller than 180" in some units are loaded with bad genes bucks and have implemented management tags or 2pt tags. Like whitetails there are lots of whitetails that will never be larger than 4x4 the equivalent of the forkie muley

[csaaphill]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.

Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" 

why would it be it wasn't when it was that way back in the 70's and 80's so why would it be now?

[Jonathan_S]

Do deer really care how many points they have? Do the does count points on the bucks when evaluating potential mates? Does it matter that there are mature two point bucks for any reason other than we can't shoot them and if we could they won't score well?

I have read a few articles that discussed a topic similar to this and they basically said antler growth is a sign of health as well as gene quality. Besides the hunting aspect, I just don't like the idea of a prolonged antler restriction rule because it eventually will effect the overall make up of the herd. When done in the short term, the effects are minimal at best and should be phased out quickly but the longer you keep the restriction and keep letting the two points walk and breed, the longer term effects it has. I will see if I can find the really good article that I read a while back about this. Does a better job talking about the science and biology behind it.

Makes perfect sense but it seems that it would be a slaughter if it were "any buck" 

why would it be it wasn't when it was that way back in the 70's and 80's so why would it be now?

Well I would like to point out a few theories but I was not hunting then so I will leave it to those who you might believe.  Anyone?  What differences exist from E Washington mule deer herds now and the 1970s...what impact would implementing an any buck rule have then vs. now?

Thanks 

[bobcat]

The biggest difference is probably the decrease in available habitat and the decrease in quality of the habitat that remains. Summer range is worse due to a lack of fire and/or logging. Winter range is worse due to development, conversion to agricultural uses, and invasive weeds.

[boneaddict]

Lol!

Apples versus oranges.  (70s versus now)

A lot more branched antler deer make it with the restriction.   you have a lot more potential for seeing a buck now. 
I've seen a lot of different versions, or studies of different models.  It just depends which side you vote for.  I choose deer.  Believe it or not, I like them. Lol

Habitat, wolves, people, equipment, disease, you can't compare now with then.  You have to manage for the future, not the past.

[Jonathan_S]

Perzackly what I was thinking but I didn't hunt through the 70-80s