Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 03:01:21 PM
Don't get me wrong, I want one of those something fierce. its just always good to self evaluate instead of pointing ones fingers all the time.
Post by: huntnphool on January 15, 2009, 03:33:38 PM
To me there is a huge difference between taking a buck on the winter range and taking a buck out of a feed station. I find it extremely hard to believe that if given the chance with one of these tags that anyone on this site would completely avoid "winter range" because of ethics :bs:
It could be argued that "winter range" is any area in the entire Methow/Chelan Valley. :twocents:
Post by: buck470 on January 15, 2009, 03:51:50 PM
attempted humor.
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 04:04:17 PM
The idea of shooting an animal with its head in a trough of feed is different, that is wrong no matter who is doing it, to most the non hunters I know.
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 04:42:49 PM
Post by: Slider on January 15, 2009, 05:28:37 PM
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 06:15:05 PM
I also wonder how many of those SAME people thinks it's politicaly correct to PIMP our animals!!!
Most don't even know ;) hell I didn't know until I came to this site and I live with hunters who didn't know.
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 06:53:10 PM
I would say that we are just bickering over who gets to kill the elk. Split it up and quit the arguing. There is a treaty and a judge ruled on it. It's not fair that the indians are killing only big males. Sounds like hunters are just bitching because they got the short stick. Nobody really cares about the animals, you all just want to fight over them and see who gets to kill them. :rolleyes:
Post by: JoeVon on January 15, 2009, 07:03:03 PM
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 07:11:03 PM
How much different is it to sneak around on the Winter Range, photographing animals? Just another "perspective."
Actually this is a great point.....especially at feeding areas...after all pressure is pressure ... people induce stress whether they are hunting with a gun or a camera, and my biased opinion is camera wielding tourists are putting more pressure/stress on animals than those who intimately know animals and their habits. ;)
gotta love devils advocates :stirthepot:
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 07:14:16 PM
Damn right I am jealous Pope. :chuckle: Suprised you don't feel that way with the 50 sheep tags they get......
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 07:15:06 PM
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 07:16:56 PM
Who are you calling a touritst....... ;)
Them granola eating, electric car driving peeps from the city with their 3 kids going oh oh lookit those deer ;)
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on January 15, 2009, 07:22:59 PM
I can for sure say, based on my experience, the majority of nonhunters who DON'T oppose legal, regulated hunting - would still rather a wild predator kill and eat those animals,than one of us.
Now, if the choice is between an indian and a wolf, that probably tears their p.c. hearts in two - but I'm betting the wolf gets more votes than the Indian.
Post by: JoeVon on January 15, 2009, 07:39:44 PM
What do you mean Joevon? I'm pretty sure that a gutpile and red bloodstain provokes different feelings than a camera toting individual. Is that what you mean....
Damn right I am jealous Pope. :chuckle: Suprised you don't feel that way with the 50 sheep tags they get......
Stress is Stress. Say for example, a photographer sees a buck he wants a picture of, tries to put a stalk on it, but blows it and the Buck takes off. This creates stress on the buck that really isn't warranted. Say this happens multiple times while the Buck is on its winter range. Every time this happens this Buck is burning reserves, and at some point runs out of them, and dies. What i'm getting at is a Dead Buck is a Dead Buck....wether its a bullet (a legal one by the way) or starvation, its the same thing. So tell me, does a buck that is shot (legally) or a buck that is starved warrant the same amount of emotion?
Joe
Post by: runamuk on January 15, 2009, 08:13:10 PM
What do you mean Joevon? I'm pretty sure that a gutpile and red bloodstain provokes different feelings than a camera toting individual. Is that what you mean....
Damn right I am jealous Pope. :chuckle: Suprised you don't feel that way with the 50 sheep tags they get......
Stress is Stress. Say for example, a photographer sees a buck he wants a picture of, tries to put a stalk on it, but blows it and the Buck takes off. This creates stress on the buck that really isn't warranted. Say this happens multiple times while the Buck is on its winter range. Every time this happens this Buck is burning reserves, and at some point runs out of them, and dies. What i'm getting at is a Dead Buck is a Dead Buck....wether its a bullet (a legal one by the way) or starvation, its the same thing. So tell me, does a buck that is shot (legally) or a buck that is starved warrant the same amount of emotion?
Joe
Assuming the shot buck isn't wasted then I personally feel bad for the starved buck ;), starvation is a painful way for any critter to go, I realize its part of nature and happens at times but prefer to not see it, especially in quantity ;)
Post by: boneaddict on January 15, 2009, 08:21:48 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on January 15, 2009, 08:32:10 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on January 15, 2009, 08:33:32 PM
I think that when you compare the contrast, the difficulty that most hunters face, compared to the relative ease that some tribal hunters have at killing multiple animals, this is the crux of the frustration by me, and the amazement of the non hunter. I have had folks exclaim..."oh...I'd be pissed....".
Post by: mossback91 on January 15, 2009, 08:35:14 PM
Alot of the general public doesnt know enough about deer to even know that pressureing them in the winter is bad
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 08:38:17 PM
How much different is it to sneak around on the Winter Range, photographing animals? Just another "perspective."
I don't know. If you push them a hundred yards is it really as bad as loading them up in the truck dead? Besides, I don't sneak around and shoot anything on the winter range. Every deer I've shot on the winter range was from my pickup truck this year. I shoot all my shots in November mostly. That's why there is no snow in any of my photographs. :dunno:
By the way, my perspecitve above was me playing "devils advocate" as the thread inspired us to do...
Post by: mossback91 on January 15, 2009, 08:46:32 PM
Post by: norsepeak on January 15, 2009, 09:36:45 PM
Post by: popeshawnpaul on January 15, 2009, 11:50:09 PM
Norse, I completely agree with you but I don't think 8 out of 10 people walking down the street see much difference. I'm not sure how they could be educated to see the difference, hence my devils advocate response was stated as such. I asked my paralegal, she didn't see much of a difference until I talked it over with her.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 16, 2009, 05:19:44 AM
And by the way; I grew up with a stepdad who was a member of the Spokane Tribe, a fantastic hunter and hunted for substenance (not for us, but for several of the older members of the tribe). ALL of that substenence hunting was done ON the rez, AS NEEDED (i.e. when an elder called him up and said her freezer was getting empty). He never hunted off the rez, unless it was for himself, with a regular tag, during the regular season. He always said that the reason that the hunting on the rez was so crappy was because there was no management.
I don't think most non-hunters care, or see a difference though. Unless you made the subject into a reality show for them... then everyone would become an "expert"...
Good thread.
Post by: PacificNWhunter on January 16, 2009, 07:56:40 AM
I think the average non-hunter tends to lead towards idea that neither the hunters nor the tribal members actually care about the animals their hunting. They just see hunters and tribal members killing these cute little deer, with no apparent concern for the animals well being or future. I don't think the public differentiates between the two of us. Not to mention the only time either party is portrayed in the news it's in a negative light.
Post by: Wenatcheejay on January 16, 2009, 08:06:44 AM
"Can't we, can't we....All just, just, get along??? :dunno:
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2009, 08:51:03 AM
Post by: buck470 on January 16, 2009, 09:17:08 AM
I don't care who shoot's the Dam thing, as long as they play by the rules!! and it is counted into the stat's the WDFW uses. That way they can properly manage the herds. Now if they mis-manage the herds that a diff. subject.
But as it stands now, the rules need to change!! I've been commenting off and on, on this subject all week, but I've also been trying to gather Email addresses of all the people that need to hear these stories. I'd like to think we could gather allot of info, pictures, licence plate numbers, Get a good letter written, and the shotgun it off to everybody we can (thats where the email list comes in) and if we can find out where these pecker heads live, I'd slip a copy in there mailbox! just so they knew we were on to them, and we are not gonna put up with ther s**t anymore.
Post by: boneaddict on January 16, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
Post by: Wenatcheejay on January 16, 2009, 09:45:19 AM
Probaly easier to do so Wenatchee if WE were a WE. WE the PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. With EQUAL oppurtunity, EQUAL rights, EQUAL problems EQUAL EQUAL EQUAL. Folks talk about predjudice, yet by setting yourself up to be different to go by different laws, live a different way, you are in fact creating a predjudice. If you want to be a nation succeeded from the Union, then cut all ties with this other Union. No more stimulus checks, no more school funds, no more free college education. etc. Get your passport and when you cross the line you are now in a foreign country.
Yes, Back in High School I used to say that "people" have do decide. "Do you want you want "equal rights" or do you want "special rights?" You can't have both.
Post by: luvtohnt on January 16, 2009, 09:50:34 AM
Quote
I'd slip a copy in there mailbox
Buck470, be careful because I beleive that is a Federal crime.
Brandon
Post by: GrainfedMuley on January 16, 2009, 10:43:50 AM
Post by: jackelope on January 16, 2009, 10:45:19 AM
Post by: GrainfedMuley on January 16, 2009, 10:50:50 AM
Post by: norsepeak on January 16, 2009, 12:35:30 PM
Post by: buck470 on January 16, 2009, 12:45:24 PM
Unless they really miss there buddies in County lockup!
Post by: Alchase on January 16, 2009, 12:51:34 PM
I believe this is a ton less stressfull on the deer or elk then running from a cat trying to eat them.
Second, the whole premise of the hunting rights the tribe claim is false on so many levels. Through out history there have been many indigenous people living here. Why do we make an exception "just before white man" to who has special privileges or not? Did they not also migrate at one time?
Then concider "most" of the elk in this state were brought here by
philanthropist hunters (non-tribal) so to claim traditional hunting privileges because of a hieroglyph found on a rock is like saying the Bloods own all of central Seattle (actually I think they do, lol) because of the graffiti on the side of the safeway. The only difference is the safeway will get painted over. We have no idea what the painter of that rock had in mind. Who is to say that he was not the "tagger of the tribe, or some traveller that saw an elk in Montana and was showing his tribe members what big deer they have, lol. My point is we do not know intent.
Another consideration, is the blatantly false game and fish reporting by the "self policing tribal members".
So back to Bones question, the difference would be the aggregate total of all of these, then add to that the killing of only big bulls in a winter feeding area "for sustenance" that my tax dollars and hunting fees pay to sustain these herds through the winter.
The tribes could take stewardship of the land (that they claim) to a level that we never could. With the amount of money coming in to the casinos there is no reason why they could not have the best hunting herds in the nation if they chose too do so.
They do not, they choose to decimate they own land, then hunt winter feeding areas for big bulls that our hard earned money raises, protects, and feeds just so they can be slaughtered with no regret or remorse.
My Grandfather who was 100% Cherokee use to get so PO-ed at what we saw the Potlatch do, would shake his head and say:
"Just because you can,.......does not mean you should, that is the difference a conscience makes"
Post by: muleyguy on January 16, 2009, 01:00:20 PM
the difference is that raffle tags and governors tags are strictly controlled; tribal hunting is not
Post by: Antlershed on January 16, 2009, 01:17:13 PM
Then, are there any hunters here that are cops?I'm pretty sure cops can't give out that info to the public either. I have access to all that info, but I would never dare give it out. I'm not a cop or an insurance agent either, btw. :twocents:
Post by: Ricochet on January 16, 2009, 01:38:17 PM
I agree with Pope on the photography side of "stress", my winter range shots are nearly always from a vehicle. Once the critter starts walking away, the game is over, I'm not a fan of "butt shots". There's also a big difference between a photographer and a guy with a camera. Its the guy trying to get wildlife shots with too short a lens, or even his camera-phone, that puts undue stress on wildlife.
Post by: highhunter on January 16, 2009, 02:00:22 PM
Post by: JoshT on January 16, 2009, 03:03:01 PM
I can't speak for deer/elk on this topic... but, I've shot enough coyotes in mixed company to know that it's looked upon with a bit of distain. I remember jumping out of the truck and hammering a coyote one day... only to realize there was a bus full of Japanese tourists that were taking pictures and admiring the dog as it was mousing along. They were pissed...
I'm thinking there's a lot more folks (meaning non-hunters) who enjoy watching the wildlife than we ofter consider. Those folks tollerate hunting, and I'm sure some even understand the need for herd management. But, I'm thinking they don't want to see anyone (white, red, green, etc.) pull-up in a Bronco and clobber some monster buck that's just trying to make it through another 10 degree day.... Governer's tag or not.
I'll never be ashamed of my love of hunting... ever. But, I also understand that things like this whole Colockum elk fiasco are never good... indian or white-man. In situations this... perception is reality... like it or not. I've decided that I'll try to be more considerate of those I share the woods with... except for tweakers... they get the bottom of my boots.
Dog Down! ~Josh
Post by: GrainfedMuley on January 16, 2009, 03:07:28 PM
Post by: buck470 on January 16, 2009, 03:41:48 PM
Even if we only went as far as "red toyota lic# XYZ123" still puts a name (pin point's) the problem. Then were not just a bunch of pissed off whitey's pickin on the poor lil Indian's.
Post by: mossback91 on January 16, 2009, 03:43:21 PM
I'd never confront said Violaters as I may have led you to believe in my earlier post, but if you can put a name to the problem, It would go farther than "some Indian".Who you call'in lil indian? there lil whiteboy?
Even if we only went as far as "red toyota lic# XYZ123" still puts a name (pin point's) the problem. Then were not just a bunch of pissed off whitey's pickin on the poor lil Indian's.
Post by: buck470 on January 16, 2009, 03:54:20 PM
Post by: Alchase on January 17, 2009, 08:06:52 AM
This politically correct position is going to allow all of the deer and elk herds to be decimated before anything is done to address this. :bash:
Post by: muleyguy on January 17, 2009, 11:12:52 AM
it has nothing to do with political correctness; the court has upheld the right of indians to hunt and fish on usual and accustomed land. The WDFW cannot do much legally about it.
you have to attack it other ways, like gating, PR campaign's
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 17, 2009, 04:04:45 PM
We are seeing this in Iraq right now. The kids that were 9 and 10 years old when we invaded are now becoming young adults. Those kids were supposed to be the next round of insurgent fighters. Instead (we hope) they will go to work or college and become productive members of a free economy. A lot of the guys that were there in '03 and '04 came home and said the same thing: this problem will not be fixed with this generation, but the next.
If this problem really is as bad as it appears to be, then it might be worth the time and expense for WDFW to put together a class like this. I for one, as a Hunter Education Instructor would be glad to volunteer my time to instruct.
Remember how many more idiots were out there in the woods 30 years ago than there are now? Something changed...
:twocents:
Post by: Wenatcheejay on January 17, 2009, 04:13:23 PM
Heres a Devils advocate thought for you all. :stirthepot: I wonder what an outsider (non hunter sitting in their living room in Wenatchee just for instance) thinks of someone blasting a buck on the winterrange, when it is their legal right to do so. For those not being able to follow my thought process, Govenors tags/raffle tags versus tribal hunting. :peep:
Don't get me wrong, I want one of those something fierce. its just always good to self evaluate instead of pointing ones fingers all the time.
Going back to the original post to the thread, I got my hands on the "Reel News" December issue. I passed out the article on the Clockum Elk and the Tribes. To say the least thus far five people have been quite upset. When I talk about if it is equal to special tags and raffles my unscientific survey says no.
So there you go.
Post by: heavy hauler on January 17, 2009, 05:39:28 PM
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 18, 2009, 09:21:59 PM
Once again. Married to a Native, Living on the rez 98948 :twocents:
Post by: Red Dawg on January 18, 2009, 09:43:15 PM
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 18, 2009, 09:58:24 PM
Post by: logger on January 18, 2009, 10:12:02 PM
Post by: Red Dawg on January 18, 2009, 10:12:32 PM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 18, 2009, 10:34:48 PM
It's not like we are trying to reach a ton of people. Anyone who has spent much time on the rez will tell you, it's only a handful that hunt seriously, and some of those that do really are doing it for substenance/elders/ceremonial feasts etc... Start educating some of these young kids so they can see the impact they can have on wildlife and it might make a difference. Maybe not right away, but eventually.
Post by: huntnphool on January 18, 2009, 10:49:47 PM
I'll say it again... WDFW should invest in a Native Hunter Education Program for the young people in the tribe who are interested in hunting. Explain things like carrying capacity, breeding populations, wintering ranges, etc...
I can appreciate your desire to come up with a solution however I have to respectfully disagree, I think it would be a terrable idea. A program like that would undoubtedly education and interest to those that likely would never have been turned on to hunting. The problem I see is what happens once these new hunters finally realize that the seasons and regulations apply to everyone except them, and that they are basically untouchable. I believe the issues we have been discussing would increase exponentially :twocents:
Post by: Pathfinder101 on January 18, 2009, 10:55:45 PM
Post by: huntnphool on January 18, 2009, 11:06:14 PM
Something's gotta change though..
You got that right!!!
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 19, 2009, 09:28:05 AM
Post by: buck470 on January 19, 2009, 09:59:48 AM
Different values,lifestyles and cultures are something that are very hard to understand. Especially when they are right next door. We look at the rez and say "Why don't they do _____ & or ________" ( you fill in the blanks ). Why dont some cultures learn ENGLISH. I dont understand. Why dont the homeless pick up after themselves. I dont understand. The point is that "Just because it bothers you doesn't mean that it bothers them." All of the rants are falling on deaf ears. Funny, Sad and TRUE.
I personally Don't have a problem with the Yakama's as a whole, just the few that are abusing there hunting right's, We probally know a few of the same People, jim and twink on Lat C? I use to work for them back in the day, great people. And I think that if there were a bunch of Non Indians doing the same thing, there would be just as many post on that subject also. I guess My problem would be with there Tribal Counsel for not doing something about this! :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2009, 10:01:45 AM
2003 – Scroll to Page 24 (of the report, not the PDF) THE TOBIN INVESTIGATION
http://wdfw.wa.gov/enforcement/annual_reports/2003_enf_annual_report.pdf (http://wdfw.wa.gov/enforcement/annual_reports/2003_enf_annual_report.pdf)
Post by: boneaddict on January 19, 2009, 10:09:50 AM
Post by: farmin4u_98948 on January 20, 2009, 09:19:23 AM
funny thing is the tribe then later tried to get the funds from the lawsuit though they had no part in the investigation.
There is the key to these issues. MONEY Someone is always going to make money on these issues. The compassion exchange rate is really high. The tribes wildlife program is funded by millions of B P A dollars. I will state for the record that they are using these resources better now than they have in the past. One thing that I do view as humorous is most of the department heads are non Native. i e Yakama Power, Wildlife Dept, etc..