Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 08:39:28 AM
http://www.opb.org/news/article/snowmobile-clubs-damage-to-deschutes-trails/
"When Forest Service employees first stumbled upon the trail and road damage, they didn’t know who did it or why.
But they knew something was wrong.
Mile after mile of dirt trails and primitive roads west and south of Bend had been wrecked with heavy machinery. Trees were knocked over with roots attached. Culverts were smashed. Roads were widened to two or three times their original size. Some areas were stripped bare of vegetation and rocks. The debris was pushed into unkempt piles along the road.
The damage was so extensive that initially, forest trails supervisor Marv Lang suspected a rogue logging operation.
“But then I considered possible trail maintenance work by Snowbusters Snowmobile Club,” Lang wrote in a law enforcement report obtained by OPB through a public records request.
His instincts were well placed.
A Forest Service investigation revealed that the Central Oregon Snowbusters were one of two snowmobile clubs responsible for nearly $200,000 worth of damage to 31 miles of Deschutes National Forest roads and trails in the summer of 2014. The four-month investigation determined that the La Pine Lodgepole Dodgers also did some of the damage under the auspices of trail maintenance that explicitly benefited snowmobile users. The heavy equipment rental was funded by state gas tax dollars.
As Congress considers whether to give volunteers an expanded role in trail maintenance on national forests, the incident serves as a warning that such efforts can go awry without proper agency oversight.
Volunteers Without Oversight
So how did it come about that volunteers were able to operate heavy machinery on public lands for five weeks, unsupervised and unnoticed?
“This is one of those classic cases where simple miscommunication between two people led to completely different understandings of what was allowed,” said Kevin Larkin, district ranger for the Bend-Fort Rock Ranger District in the Deschutes National Forest.
The clubs had permission to perform light trail maintenance along snowmobile routes near the Cascade Lakes Highway and within the Newberry National Volcanic Monument. During a 2014 spring meeting, the volunteers told the Forest Service they wanted to increase maintenance that summer, Larkin said.
“From that very short conversation, the clubs believed that they had approval to go ahead with work,” Larkin said. “And the Forest Service believed that that work was going to be what we would consider routine maintenance…taking care of limbs and portions of trees that are extending into snowmobile trail corridors.”
“No definition of trail maintenance includes smashing of culverts and knocking over trees.”
Erik Fernandez, Oregon Wild
The agency provided the clubs with detailed permits outlining what volunteers could do. Nothing in their permits allowed volunteers to use heavy equipment to knock down trees, move rocks and soil, or widen roads.
Wally Buckman, the volunteer responsible for most of the damage, later told the Forest Service he did not read the entire permit. Assuming he had sufficient go-ahead, Buckman left a message with the Forest Service and then began working on the trails with a 30,000-pound John Deere excavator.
The rented equipment used by the clubs was paid for by the Oregon State Snowmobile Association with state tax dollars. The association has an annual contract with the Oregon Department of Transportation for up to $1.3 million. Part of that money comes from the fuel tax paid by snowmobilers. The snowmobile association channels those dollars to local clubs like the Snowbusters to pay for grooming and maintenance of 6,210 miles of trails statewide.
Over the course of five weeks, Buckman never heard from the agency, nor did he encounter Forest Service staff in the field.
Buckman declined to speak to OPB. But he told the Forest Service, “he thought he was doing good stuff,” according to the agency report.
Peggy Spieger, executive director of the snowmobile association, agreed.
“There was no intent to destroy the land or do something the Forest Service did not want to have done,” Spieger said. “The intent was to make a better trail.”
But for some environmentalists, that explanation falls short.
“No definition of trail maintenance includes smashing of culverts and knocking over trees,” said Erik Fernandez, wilderness program manager for Oregon Wild. “They had a permit to be brushing, which is very light trail maintenance, and they ended up doing recreational bulldozing out there.”
Cost For Rehabilitation
The Forest Service did not discover the damage until weeks later. Because of the extent of the damage, the agency launched a law enforcement investigation. Resource specialists spent weeks assessing the impacts and developing rehabilitation plans, costing the agency an estimated $40,000 in staff time on top of the $200,000 on-the-ground damage cost, according to Larkin. In the end, the Forest Service decided not to pursue criminal or civil charges against the snowmobile volunteers.
“What we realized is that there was not malicious intent,” Larkin said. “Everybody involved thought that they were doing the right thing for the right reasons and within the bounds of their authority.” He views the responsibility as shared between the clubs and his staff.
“The intent was to make a better trail.”
Peggy Spieger, Oregon State Snowmobile Association
The final tab of $200,000 in damages is hefty, considering that the Deschutes National Forest has an annual maintenance budget of roughly $70,000 for trails and $400,000 for roads. Larkin expects rehabilitation work to be funded at least in part from those budgets. So far, Larkin has asked the statewide snowmobile association to contribute about $35,000 toward critical restoration costs.
Environmental groups like Oregon Wild don’t think it’s right for agency dollars to go toward fixing the damage.
“Those funds would otherwise have gone into improving hiking trails and mountain biking trails and campgrounds. Instead, it’s going toward cleaning up a mess,” Fernandez said.
Groups like Oregon Wild and Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics see the incident as symptomatic of a broader problem: Land agencies don’t have adequate funding to manage recreation programs, including those that rely on volunteers.
“We’re not making the investments in our trails and recreation on the national forest that’s commensurate with the public use,” said Andy Stahl, executive director of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics, a national watchdog organization. “Relying on volunteers, as well-intentioned as they are, doesn’t always yield good results.”
The consequences of this incident could be long-lasting. They could include road and trail erosion, soil displacement, potential introduction of invasive species and disturbance at archaeological sites.
The snowmobile groups, for their part, would like to quietly move past the incident.
“From our perspective, it’s not news-worthy. We did some resource damage, and we worked it out with the Forest Service to their satisfaction. We got our hands slapped and we’re all moving on,” Spieger said.
As the Deschutes National Forest works to repair the damage from this incident, Congress is considering legislation that would double the number of volunteers on national forests. The National Forest System Trails Stewardship Act would make it easier for agencies to increase volunteer trail maintenance, but the bill doesn’t include funding to increase agency oversight.
U.S. Rep. Greg Walden, R-Ore., became a co-sponsor of the bill last summer, pointing to the thousands of miles of trails nationwide that are unmaintained.
“We don’t have the resources at the federal level to maintain these trails. And yet there’s a group of volunteers out there willing to do the work,” Walden told OPB.
READ MORE: Volunteers already devote thousands of hours to Northwest forests every year. The 2014 damage in the Deschutes seems to be an anomaly.
For budget-strapped agencies, these unpaid workers are critical. Many national forests in Oregon have no funding for winter grooming; without volunteers, there would be few groomed trails in the state.
“That partnership is too valuable to the citizens of Oregon to just throw it out with the bathwater,” Larkin said, referring to the generally successful volunteer programs in the Deschutes National Forest.
The association’s snowmobile clubs maintain trails on national forests across the state.
“We groom and maintain a whale of a trail system throughout the state on Forest Service land,” Spieger said. “And our trail system benefits all winter recreationists,” she emphasized.
In response to the recent damage, Larkin’s staff updated the agreements that outline the responsibilities of the club and provide protocol for communications between volunteers and agency supervisors.
“We want to make sure that we have a system in place that prevents this from ever happening again.”
Kevin Larkin, Deschutes National Forest District Ranger
He is not restricting the volunteers responsible for the damage from future trail work. Groomers have already begun winter trail maintenance. Next summer, they’ll be allowed to work on the trails and roads again, although Larkin said Forest Service staff will be more vigilant about oversight going forward.
“It’s not as simple as welcoming a volunteer through the door, handing that person a shovel and saying, ‘Go do good work,” Larkin said. “There’s direction, guidance and attention that’s needed. We fell down on that in this particular instance.”"
Post by: Gringo31 on December 16, 2015, 12:48:17 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 01:03:48 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on December 16, 2015, 01:14:07 PM
Now, before that gets anyone's hackles up to far, I've seen how well DNR or the forest service cleans up after a logging operation. >:(
Quote
“No definition of trail maintenance includes smashing of culverts and knocking over trees,” said Erik Fernandez, wilderness program manager for Oregon Wild. “They had a permit to be brushing, which is very light trail maintenance, and they ended up doing recreational bulldozing out there.”
Oregon Wild appears to be a greenie group. They have their agenda. No one was trying to smash culverts.
Another example of far reaching..
Quote
The consequences of this incident could be long-lasting. They could include road and trail erosion, soil displacement, potential introduction of invasive species and disturbance at archaeological sites.
Seems to me this is more logical.
Quote
“From our perspective, it’s not news-worthy. We did some resource damage, and we worked it out with the Forest Service to their satisfaction. We got our hands slapped and we’re all moving on,” Spieger said.
In short, I disagree with you P-man and I don't snowmobile.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 01:16:56 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 16, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 16, 2015, 01:27:15 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 01:28:21 PM
Oregon Wild is like Conservation Northwest
I understand that. But it's not Oregon Wild which investigated this. It was the state of OR. So... :dunno:
Post by: elk247 on December 16, 2015, 01:42:25 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 01:57:20 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 16, 2015, 02:05:53 PM
Are you guys all of the opinion that we should be able to take heavy equipment up into the forests and do what we want to enhance our own hobbies? This is very interesting to me.Depends on how it is done (like what the engineering calls for). I would have no issue with people volunteering to grade roads, repair bridges, replacing culverts, etc. Wouldn't be opposed to volunteer thinning where the FS has made it too costly/regulated to attract loggers to cut. I see a difference in keeping the existing roads vs making new ones.
Post by: Stalker on December 16, 2015, 02:12:23 PM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 16, 2015, 02:15:43 PM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 02:19:33 PM
Post by: westsidehntr on December 16, 2015, 02:21:56 PM
Post by: Firedogg on December 16, 2015, 02:30:30 PM
I call BS on that story, someone in the local FS district knew it was going on.
Post by: Stalker on December 16, 2015, 02:33:29 PM
Maybe someone with logging experience can clarify what a permit to "brush" may possibly entail.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 16, 2015, 05:38:55 PM
Seems to me that the State bears the preponderance of the responsibility in this. I say this because I would have to think that whenever a project is being submitted for review that it would be assigned a supervising official (SO). This SO would be responsible to work with whatever group leader, contractor or volunteer, to ensure that the government property and interests are protected. The SO would also be responsible to walk the project with other leads to ensure all parties are on the same page in order to avoid issues like this. SO would also be required to do a periodic walk through and keep proper reports on the project. If manning is such an issue for these agencies then volunteers could very well relieve some of their pressure when it comes to grunt work. But this would not relieve the agency of their oversight responsibility. Seems like basic project management. :twocents:
The state has zero say on the FEDERAL LANDS as far as I know. The problem is total mismanagement within the Forest Service itself. The FS is totally infested with greenie, eco-terrorsits, land grabbing people, who do not want anybody recreating our OUR lands. It's pretty plain to see if you watch what's going on. The FS is restricting land use, road use for ORV's, de-commisioning roads, horrible timber management and horrible under growth, which caused the largest fires in the history of Washington State.
Post by: Buzz2401 on December 16, 2015, 06:04:57 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 16, 2015, 06:11:41 PM
I can totally see this happening too, someone volunteered and went nuts on some equipment without really knowing how to even read a contract. It was probably gibberish to a non-professional equipment operator.
Post by: Labredog on December 16, 2015, 06:54:56 PM
Post by: MisplacedAlaskan on December 16, 2015, 06:56:34 PM
Post by: mfswallace on December 16, 2015, 08:08:53 PM
I have performed alot of winter and summer trail maintenance for Nordic skiing and snowmobile riding. I knew exactly what was acceptable! I also knew the consequences to the companies usfs/states relationship if I deviated from permissible actions....
Post by: Humptulips on December 16, 2015, 08:22:36 PM
We need pictures to clear this up. Pushed over trees could have been leaning alders that would have fallen in the road at some point. It's a lot easier to remove those trees when you have the equipment in there that after the fact. I doubt the trees they pushed over were 24" firs. I would also need to see the culvert damage. I agree that this seems to be written with an agenda.:yeah:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 16, 2015, 08:59:24 PM
Post by: elk247 on December 16, 2015, 11:49:06 PM
Here is a direct quote from the article;
Bob Keller is the grooming chairman for the state snowmobile association. Where the Forest Service sees damage in the trees that were pushed over and the roads that were widened, he sees a better route for his groomers.
"It’s like you and I, we can stand on the corner and watch an automobile have a wreck and we will both give a different story about the same thing we’ve both seen. We feel that we've done it right."
End quote.
This appears to be a case of environmentalist being sensitive and making an issue out of nothing. The irony is that it cost 200k to "fix" (move a few rocks, trees and slash :chuckle: likely taking limited funds away from other environmental projects like spotted owl restoration or this months endangered moth.
Post by: mkcj on December 17, 2015, 01:25:18 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 17, 2015, 05:47:57 AM
The carnage and devastation in those picture is amazing.
Someone had asked if the trees were actually down of if they were just brushed. The picture of the downed tree answers that question.
Post by: grundy53 on December 17, 2015, 05:58:27 AM
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Post by: pianoman9701 on December 17, 2015, 06:17:42 AM
Post by: dontgetcrabs on December 17, 2015, 06:42:13 AM
The carnage and devastation in those picture is amazing.
:yeah:
Death penalty for all involved!
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 17, 2015, 06:52:29 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 18, 2015, 09:38:58 AM
Looks like they pushed over a couple " pecker poles " and one old, previous cut stump was in the picture. I know if there was a huge area that WAS messed up, there would be aerial pictures, graphs etc. If the green group, Oregon Wild is complaining, have them volunteer their time, instead of bitching and not doing squat until after the fact.which is typical with the " greenies world "..
:yeah: They could have just left it alone this year and part of next years contract would include fixing a couple things like the holes and removing the trees they pushed over.
Can't do that though, gotta appease the tree huggers which BTW will do everything they can to get snowmobiles shut down. (and hunting, and ATV's and anything not human powered)
Post by: mfswallace on December 18, 2015, 08:03:30 PM
Looks like they pushed over a couple " pecker poles " and one old, previous cut stump was in the picture. I know if there was a huge area that WAS messed up, there would be aerial pictures, graphs etc. If the green group, Oregon Wild is complaining, have them volunteer their time, instead of bitching and not doing squat until after the fact.which is typical with the " greenies world "..
:yeah: They could have just left it alone this year and part of next years contract would include fixing a couple things like the holes and removing the trees they pushed over.
Can't do that though, gotta appease the tree huggers which BTW will do everything they can to get snowmobiles shut down. (and hunting, and ATV's and anything not human powered)
Tree huggers or not...
throw out the legal binding contract and let everyone break the law???
Post by: Special T on December 18, 2015, 08:35:53 PM
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 19, 2015, 06:36:56 PM
Looks like they pushed over a couple " pecker poles " and one old, previous cut stump was in the picture. I know if there was a huge area that WAS messed up, there would be aerial pictures, graphs etc. If the green group, Oregon Wild is complaining, have them volunteer their time, instead of bitching and not doing squat until after the fact.which is typical with the " greenies world "..
:yeah: They could have just left it alone this year and part of next years contract would include fixing a couple things like the holes and removing the trees they pushed over.
Can't do that though, gotta appease the tree huggers which BTW will do everything they can to get snowmobiles shut down. (and hunting, and ATV's and anything not human powered)
Tree huggers or not...
throw out the legal binding contract and let everyone break the law???
Seems like they only broke the law when, Oregon Wild saw something or was told about something. Otherwise, everything would of been hunky dory.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 19, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
Sorry you can bet the worst pics are shown and I don't see that much damage... Perhaps a good natural fire can help them out! Stupid
:yeah: what a joke. :bash:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 19, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
Post by: Special T on December 19, 2015, 09:09:07 PM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.Well it would appear that they got funds from the state to rent it...did they overstep thier direction... yup. Not quite sure im willing to throw stones at them from the pics provided.. nor am I overly concerend that a bunch of bunny huggers are up I arms. Up here in the nw corner of the state the gov have concentrated a lot of 4x4 to walker valley. When the get thier panies in a twist about the impact im less sympathetic than when we have several areas to choose from. I dont see pulli g some small sapling s aor moving some blow down a crime against humanity.
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Post by: grundy53 on December 19, 2015, 10:34:03 PM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.They didn't just take heavy machinery up to the public forest and make improvements. The state paid for the freekin rental. They knew what was happening.
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Post by: Ice Cap on December 19, 2015, 11:04:57 PM
I would however find it interesting to actually read the agreement/contract before passing judgement on anyone involved.
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2015, 05:32:47 AM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.They didn't just take heavy machinery up to the public forest and make improvements. The state paid for the freekin rental. They knew what was happening.
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To be clear, they got funds from the state for the project which had strict guidelines, guidelines which didn't include the work they actually performed. The state was certainly negligent in not overseeing the project, but to say they knew what was happening is in direct contrast to the statements of the state managers. That doesn't make what these guys did right. It was wrong. I remember a thread two years ago where the whole forum was upset about a jeep that went off-road and got stuck on a hillside. It's amazing to me that that guy got so much hate directed at him and yet these guys "haven't done anything wrong". I'm not nearly as concerned with the amount of damage the snowmobilers caused (which seems nominal), but with the precedent that opens the door to more of this in the future.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 20, 2015, 07:15:44 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on December 20, 2015, 07:51:21 AM
Those pictures don't look bad to me. I think the greeners are trying to make this a bigger deal than it is.As with most greenie outfits....,,.
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Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2015, 08:24:09 AM
How can the STATE, have any control over a Federal job, Pman ? The states, Washington, have been known to steal OUR taxes from the snowmobile/ATV funds and put it in the general fund, which was illegal. I think even though we get OUR money, from that fund for trails, the state doesn't control the projects we work on.
I mispoke. The Feds not the State. The issue here has nothing to do with either WA or money being stolen from the general fund. Those are separate issues.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on December 20, 2015, 08:26:42 AM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.
That's sad to see.
I suspect if it was thier private property the damage would be more meaningful
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 20, 2015, 08:33:28 AM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.
That's sad to see.
I suspect if it was thier private property the damage would be more meaningful
That's the problem I have. It is our property and it was intentionally misused for the benefit of one group of people, regardless of the actual extent of "damage". This will tell other snowmobilers and ATV-ers that this is OK to do as long as they pretend they didn't know any better.
Post by: 7mmstalker on December 20, 2015, 08:59:07 AM
Yes, dirt was moved, yes some trees died. But seriously, how significant is this? Consider the MILLIONS of acres of land our government has gated and locked from any use other than hiking and photography. Primarily to appease special interest groups, specifically the ones that demonize and hate ANY MOTORIZED RECREATION.
Living in Whatcom County for close to 15 years, watching the few ORV areas that were "government approved" reduced to almost nothing made me sick.
Sultan Basin, Moses Lake Dunes, areas around Cle-elum and north of Spokane once allowed for safe, accessible off-road recreation. All of those users are shut out, or concentrated in very small congested high traffic "parks".
Motorized vehicles do disturb the dirt, so does MT biking and farming!
The environmental movement is clearly distorting public perception. Alarmist tactics and relying on widespread ignorance of the "big picture" gets them the emotional response and public support.
Perhaps if more people understood the enormous amount of PUBLIC LAND that is already dedicated to Wilderness status, National Parks, "Roadless Areas" logging and mining moratoriums, etc. etc.
It is great that we are finding better ways to build homes with manufactured beams and plywood, recycling metals and plastics seems like a win-win deal as well.
I think we, as a society, should also accept that humans are going to have an impact on the environment we live in.
Trying to keep humanity out of the environment is an extreme position.
"All things in moderation."
Post by: KFhunter on December 20, 2015, 01:14:43 PM
Looks like they pushed over a couple " pecker poles " and one old, previous cut stump was in the picture. I know if there was a huge area that WAS messed up, there would be aerial pictures, graphs etc. If the green group, Oregon Wild is complaining, have them volunteer their time, instead of bitching and not doing squat until after the fact.which is typical with the " greenies world "..
:yeah: They could have just left it alone this year and part of next years contract would include fixing a couple things like the holes and removing the trees they pushed over.
Can't do that though, gotta appease the tree huggers which BTW will do everything they can to get snowmobiles shut down. (and hunting, and ATV's and anything not human powered)
Tree huggers or not...
throw out the legal binding contract and let everyone break the law???
My argument is based on the premise that the gov knew what was going on but threw the snowmobile club under the bus when Oregon wild threw a fit. The gov probably tried to turn a blind eye to the trail widening job because there wasn't any environmental assessments done; but when caught they had plausible deniability and took the easy way out to avoid costly litigation. "the snowmobile club didn't follow the contract but $200k will fix it" It would explain the snowmobile club's bewilderment at the mixed messages.
This is just my guess. It's the only thing that makes since. The fed and state is usually all over things when heavy equipment is moving on public lands, I can't imagine they had no idea this was happening.
Post by: Special T on December 20, 2015, 01:18:25 PM
Sounds like the most reasonable guess to me.
Post by: Humptulips on December 20, 2015, 01:43:54 PM
I saw this so many times while working on the FS. It is all about paperwork. If you don't have it you are going to be damned. The guy thought he had it and everything would have been OK if a third party would not have gotten involved.
Couple years go by and you won't be able to tell anybody did anything.
Mountain out of a molehill.
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on December 20, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.They didn't just take heavy machinery up to the public forest and make improvements. The state paid for the freekin rental. They knew what was happening.
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:yeah: Exactly. I don't snow machine but why do you need all these wide groomed trails ? Is it really a wussy sport or what? I would think you would want blaze your own trails through the snow? :dunno:
Post by: CAMPMEAT on December 20, 2015, 03:05:15 PM
How can the STATE, have any control over a Federal job, Pman ? The states, Washington, have been known to steal OUR taxes from the snowmobile/ATV funds and put it in the general fund, which was illegal. I think even though we get OUR money, from that fund for trails, the state doesn't control the projects we work on.
I mispoke. The Feds not the State. The issue here has nothing to do with either WA or money being stolen from the general fund. Those are separate issues.
The reason why I said, state funds stolen, is because it was stated that the state paid for the rental, if I remember what was said correctly, that's all. I did not re-read the the OP to be fair. I just got home.. :tup:
Post by: KFhunter on December 20, 2015, 04:49:01 PM
So we're pretty much all in agreement that it's OK to take heavy equipment up into public forests and make "improvements". Interesting discussion.They didn't just take heavy machinery up to the public forest and make improvements. The state paid for the freekin rental. They knew what was happening.
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:yeah: Exactly. I don't snow machine but why do you need all these wide groomed trails ? Is it really a wussy sport or what? I would think you would want blaze your own trails through the snow? :dunno:
Dude, you've no idea...
The groomed trail system is extremely popular, if you go back east you'll find people that don't even drive a car in the winter everything's done off the groomed trail system, miles upon miles of winter riding, bar hopping, ice fishing, grocery runs you name it. Out here in the west the groomed trails are mostly scenic in nature and see a good bit of use, in some areas the trail system is overloaded with people. It brings huge revenue to rural areas of the state that would other wise starve for tourist dollars in the winter. I suspect this area in question see's a lot of pleasure riding on the groomed trails.
I mostly ride in Canada where a groomed trail is far and few between, imagine 5 to 20 miles of humps up to 4 feet tall and about 6 feet apart. Makes moguls on a dirt bike track look tame in comparison. It's a huge pile of suck after a mile or two, but the reward is great if you can throttle through all that and make it to the steep and deep..and not be worn out time you get there :chuckle:
For people like me the groomed trail system is just a way to get to the mountains where the snow is actually deep enough to ride off the trails. Some areas it's illegal to leave the trails, all depends on where you are it's confusing at times to know if you can or can't go off the trail. My fun starts where the trees can no longer grow due to elevation.
One of these days you should take a weekend and rent some sleds and go for a ride, you'll see things you'd never see otherwise.
Post by: follow maggie on January 31, 2016, 09:39:51 AM
Post by: ICEMAN on January 31, 2016, 04:17:53 PM
Is trail maintenance (construction) any worse than logging, or a hillside collapsing due to mother nature, or a heavy rain storm? Last time I checked, mountains slowly dissolve overtime, cascading down dirt, silt, gravel and boulders, into the land surrounding the mountains. If humans did not exist, rivers would still be muddy after heavy rain. Hillsides would still slide. Forests would burn.
I think they way, way way over worried this. I would rather they would have spent the 40k investigating/estimating this incident on tearing open more roads to get more people into the woods. All I see is land being let to go wild, roads ripped out by DNR and returned to a more "natural" existence, all to the disadvantage of the taxpayers. It used to be that the state would open opportunity for us, now they eliminate it.