Post by: jeepster on July 11, 2016, 04:09:53 PM
I found the thread about the dyed fuel rather interesting. In the boat world, our diesel is red... So it's interesting hearing about the cops acctually dipping fuel tanks.
One legal thing one might consider looking into, and I am not sure if this is still in effect, but I remember years ago my buddy's dad used to send the state all of his reciepts from the automotive fuel he put in his Grady white and they would refund the road tax as it was used in a non automotive vehicle.
One thing that might be worth looking into is whether or not you could do something similar with milage on non-managed roads ie off road use
Post by: 7mag. on July 11, 2016, 04:20:55 PM
Post by: logger on July 11, 2016, 04:35:00 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on July 11, 2016, 05:18:39 PM
Post by: logger on July 11, 2016, 05:35:19 PM
First of all, not trying to break any rules or piss off the moderatoryears ago you were required to have a off road fuel permit, anybody can buy it now
I found the thread about the dyed fuel rather interesting. In the boat world, our diesel is red... So it's interesting hearing about the cops acctually dipping fuel tanks.
One legal thing one might consider looking into, and I am not sure if this is still in effect, but I remember years ago my buddy's dad used to send the state all of his reciepts from the automotive fuel he put in his Grady white and they would refund the road tax as it was used in a non automotive vehicle.
One thing that might be worth looking into is whether or not you could do something similar with milage on non-managed roads ie off road use
Post by: Miles on July 11, 2016, 05:37:01 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 11, 2016, 05:43:56 PM
** This post is not supporting, condoning, and/or endorsing any illegal activities. Any information contained here is for educational purposes only. **
Post by: baker5150 on July 11, 2016, 06:47:31 PM
Not condoning it in anyway,
Just plain old curious.
Post by: JODakota on July 11, 2016, 07:13:16 PM
I'm curious how a LEO could dip your fuel tank without permission or a warrant? If you have a fuel door latch that must be opened from the interior, how could they do it without permission? Can they look under the hood? I'd be curious to see where probable cause would come from. Other than an obvious leak or maybe a witness.
Not condoning it in anyway,
Just plain old curious.
That's actually a great question.
Post by: MisplacedAlaskan on July 11, 2016, 07:38:27 PM
As far as the fuel goes the red and green are exactly the same, you just don't pay taxes on the red.
Post by: logger on July 11, 2016, 07:41:21 PM
Post by: UBA on July 11, 2016, 08:27:26 PM
Post by: jeepster on July 11, 2016, 08:46:23 PM
So, keeping this within the realm of friendly, legal, moderator approved conversation, what if they dipped a tank and you were running veggie, or mineral or any other legal alternative fuel that can be used in a diesel... Then what?
What about buying fuel in Canada for say a long haul road trip? We had a boat come in to the shop the other day with different colored fuel than what's normally in a tank (Red), do they dye fuel red and green/yellow there?
I saw blue gasoline the other day...
Many questions as I've never heard of this, not surprised, but still haven't heard of this
Post by: Pnwrider on July 11, 2016, 09:16:39 PM
As far as the fuel goes the red and green are exactly the same, you just don't pay taxes on the red.
If they're "exactly the same" than how will someone know if you're running off road diesel by dipping your tank???
Post by: X-Force on July 11, 2016, 09:23:44 PM
because the colors are different the quality of fuel is the same.As far as the fuel goes the red and green are exactly the same, you just don't pay taxes on the red.
If they're "exactly the same" than how will someone know if you're running off road diesel by dipping your tank???
Post by: Caseyd on July 11, 2016, 09:44:33 PM
Post by: baker5150 on July 12, 2016, 08:28:27 AM
Huh... I did not know we had diesel patrol.
So, keeping this within the realm of friendly, legal, moderator approved conversation, what if they dipped a tank and you were running veggie, or mineral or any other legal alternative fuel that can be used in a diesel... Then what?
What about buying fuel in Canada for say a long haul road trip? We had a boat come in to the shop the other day with different colored fuel than what's normally in a tank (Red), do they dye fuel red and green/yellow there?
I saw blue gasoline the other day...
Many questions as I've never heard of this, not surprised, but still haven't heard of this
Boats can use Dyed diesel if I re-call correctly, since they aren't a road use vehicle.
I have gotten Diesel fuel in Canada for my pickup, and it wasn't dyed Red. So you should be good there.
I've never heard of Blue Gasoline, but I have never heard of "Offroad only, dyed gasoline" either, only diesel.
I don't think they will dip a gasser's tank. No reason to.
Post by: Woodchuck on July 12, 2016, 08:34:31 AM
Oh yes, there is off road gas, lots of old tractors are gassers, yes it is red to.Huh... I did not know we had diesel patrol.
So, keeping this within the realm of friendly, legal, moderator approved conversation, what if they dipped a tank and you were running veggie, or mineral or any other legal alternative fuel that can be used in a diesel... Then what?
What about buying fuel in Canada for say a long haul road trip? We had a boat come in to the shop the other day with different colored fuel than what's normally in a tank (Red), do they dye fuel red and green/yellow there?
I saw blue gasoline the other day...
Many questions as I've never heard of this, not surprised, but still haven't heard of this
Boats can use Dyed diesel if I re-call correctly, since they aren't a road use vehicle.
I have gotten Diesel fuel in Canada for my pickup, and it wasn't dyed Red. So you should be good there.
I've never heard of Blue Gasoline, but I have never heard of "Offroad only, dyed gasoline" either, only diesel.
I don't think they will dip a gasser's tank. No reason to.
Post by: baker5150 on July 12, 2016, 08:37:08 AM
Post by: Woodchuck on July 12, 2016, 08:38:48 AM
Post by: C-Money on July 12, 2016, 08:42:00 AM
Post by: jackelope on July 12, 2016, 08:45:38 AM
Maybe the blue gas had some marine Sta-bil in it.
I can't say I've ever looked at it, but is E-85 Ethanol fuel possibly the blue gas?
Post by: BULLBLASTER on July 12, 2016, 08:54:08 AM
Post by: KFhunter on July 12, 2016, 08:55:17 AM
Tank normal, external tank into the engine
I think they could just take a sample at the fuel filter drain
Post by: Woodchuck on July 12, 2016, 08:55:54 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 12, 2016, 09:00:40 AM
years ago you were required to have a off road fuel permit
Joe Blow used to be able to buy it at a gas station in Kenmore from about 45 years ago till 1986. So "years ago" was either before that, after that or never ever.
Post by: Dhoey07 on July 12, 2016, 09:10:10 AM
.Tank normal, external tank into the engine
I think they could just take a sample at the fuel filter drain
If you have one
Post by: KFhunter on July 12, 2016, 09:14:50 AM
Post by: headshot5 on July 12, 2016, 09:15:09 AM
Quote
I have never heard of a tank getting dipped unless there was a external fuel tank in the bed. Does anyone have first hand experience with a tank getting dipped when external fuel tanks were not present?
As far as the fuel goes the red and green are exactly the same, you just don't pay taxes on the red.
They like to dip diesel pickups at cattle auctions etc. The other person who posted is correct it is usually when the price of on road diesel gets pretty high. I'd like to see how they feel when they dip a tank and it has Vegetable oil on it... Definitely didn't pay the road tax for that. :chuckle: As far as being the same, I'm not sure if the Red diesel is low sulfur like the current on-road diesel is???
Also I know they check fuel vendors (tanker trucks) to see if they are fueling their trucks from their tanks when hauling off road diesel.
Post by: TheSkyBuster on July 12, 2016, 09:15:49 AM
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4941.pdf
Post by: baker5150 on July 12, 2016, 09:27:09 AM
(15) For the purposes of enforcement of this section, the Washington state patrol or other commercial vehicle safety alliance-certified officers may inspect, collect, and secure samples of special fuel used in the propulsion of a vehicle operated upon the highways of this state to detect the presence of dye or other chemical compounds
Looks like they can legally dip your tank. Not sure how it would work if you have a locking gas cap or a fuel door with a cab operated latch. I imagine they can threaten obstruction or something.
Post by: baker5150 on July 12, 2016, 09:28:51 AM
For those of you considering running red diesel on the highway you should know that Tank dipping is not done by local law enforcement. It is done by IRS fuel tax compliance agents. ( yes they really have those.) and they do set up check points usually on rural roads, in agricultural areas. The check points I have Seen were assisted by WSP and all diesel trucks were stopped by the cops so the IRS could dip the tanks. Fines start at $1000.00, so it probably isn't worth it to save a few cents per gallon. :twocents:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4941.pdf
Looks like it could be even worse if you have an in-bed aux tank...
Examples:
•If you have 3 registered vehicles, each with a 20-gallon capacity, you could face a fine of $3,000. (3 vehicles x $1,000 minimum fine = $3,000)
•If you fuel a licensed vehicle from your own 150-gallon dyed diesel slip tank or bulk storage tank, you could face a fine for both the tank and the vehicle: ◦$1,500 for the bulk storage tank ($10 x 150 gallons = $1,500), and:
◦$1,000 for the vehicle tank ($1,000 minimum fine)
Post by: TheSkyBuster on July 12, 2016, 10:25:56 AM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 12, 2016, 11:35:56 AM
Post by: birddogdad on July 12, 2016, 12:07:34 PM
I'm curious how a LEO could dip your fuel tank without permission or a warrant? If you have a fuel door latch that must be opened from the interior, how could they do it without permission? Can they look under the hood? I'd be curious to see where probable cause would come from. Other than an obvious leak or maybe a witness.
Not condoning it in anyway,
Just plain old curious.
That's actually a great question.
I would guess it falls in the same category as weights n measure stops along the highway.
Post by: baker5150 on July 12, 2016, 12:18:56 PM
I'm curious how a LEO could dip your fuel tank without permission or a warrant? If you have a fuel door latch that must be opened from the interior, how could they do it without permission? Can they look under the hood? I'd be curious to see where probable cause would come from. Other than an obvious leak or maybe a witness.
Not condoning it in anyway,
Just plain old curious.
That's actually a great question.
I would guess it falls in the same category as weights n measure stops along the highway.
From what I am gathering, it's a lot like having to show insurance coverage, or current registration. It falls under the category of a requirement to use a public roadway. Leo's, have the authority to make sure you and your vehicle are in compliance with the laws of operating a motor vehicle. Not allowing them is like not showing proof of insurance, or failing to show ID, you aren't required to, but if you don't you get fined, etc.
This is not a factual statement, just what I am gathering from Google.
Post by: Woodchuck on July 12, 2016, 12:23:24 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 12, 2016, 12:51:08 PM
Is probable cause needed to pull you over for a dip?
Probably for anything other than an in service commercial vehicle
Post by: MisplacedAlaskan on July 12, 2016, 05:19:49 PM
QuoteI have never heard of a tank getting dipped unless there was a external fuel tank in the bed. Does anyone have first hand experience with a tank getting dipped when external fuel tanks were not present?
As far as the fuel goes the red and green are exactly the same, you just don't pay taxes on the red.
They like to dip diesel pickups at cattle auctions etc. The other person who posted is correct it is usually when the price of on road diesel gets pretty high. I'd like to see how they feel when they dip a tank and it has Vegetable oil on it... Definitely didn't pay the road tax for that. :chuckle: As far as being the same, I'm not sure if the Red diesel is low sulfur like the current on-road diesel is???
Also I know they check fuel vendors (tanker trucks) to see if they are fueling their trucks from their tanks when hauling off road diesel.
I had the low sulfur question also and I called Masco and asked them. They said that the sulfur in both on and off highway has been the same since 2011.
Post by: huntandjeep on July 12, 2016, 05:53:52 PM
Is probable cause needed to pull you over for a dip?They stopped my buddy for speeding. Saw his auxiliary tank and asked if they could check his truck tank. He wasn't using dyed diesel that time :chuckle:
Post by: dontgetcrabs on July 12, 2016, 06:36:57 PM
Is probable cause needed to pull you over for a dip?
I got stopped for expired tabs when WSP dipped my tank.
Post by: Special T on July 12, 2016, 06:48:19 PM
Post by: 2labs on July 12, 2016, 07:02:09 PM
Post by: logger on July 12, 2016, 08:11:54 PM
It happened. , Gas staions called it stove oil to skirt the issue.
years ago you were required to have a off road fuel permit
Joe Blow used to be able to buy it at a gas station in Kenmore from about 45 years ago till 1986. So "years ago" was either before that, after that or never ever.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 12, 2016, 08:19:25 PM
I used to get it at marinas--called it boat diesel. The owners claimed it had some extra oil added to it which would make it run a little better. Hated having to drag the hoses from the docks up to the parking lot to fuel up.It happened. , Gas staions called it stove oil to skirt the issue.
years ago you were required to have a off road fuel permit
Joe Blow used to be able to buy it at a gas station in Kenmore from about 45 years ago till 1986. So "years ago" was either before that, after that or never ever.
Post by: Jason on July 12, 2016, 08:21:32 PM
Another time driving north on I/5 through Woodland I was pulled over by a State Patrol officer for my license plate light being out, he also dipped my tank.
Post by: jmscon on July 12, 2016, 08:49:15 PM
Post by: Bob33 on July 12, 2016, 09:14:53 PM
Must I Allow a Fuel Inspection?
The Internal Revenue Code provides that any person who refuses to allow an inspection will be fined
$1,000 for each refusal. The vehicle may then be detained until an inspection is done.
What are the Penalties?
Generally speaking, no dyed fuel may be used in highway vehicles. For each violation, the Internal
Revenue Code specifies a penalty of $1,000 or $10 per gallon, whichever is greater, plus payment of the
tax. States may impose additional fines.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=82.38.270
Violations—Penalties. (Effective until July 1, 2016.)
(1) It is unlawful for a person or corporation to:
(a) Have dyed diesel in the fuel supply tank of a vehicle that is licensed or required to be licensed for highway use or maintain dyed diesel in bulk storage for highway use, unless the person or corporation maintains an uncanceled dyed diesel user license or is otherwise exempted by this chapter;
(b) Evade a tax or fee imposed under this chapter;
(c) File a false statement of a material fact on a special fuel license application or special fuel refund application;
(d) Act as a special fuel importer, special fuel blender, or special fuel supplier unless the person holds an uncanceled special fuel license issued by the department authorizing the person to engage in that business;
(e) Knowingly assist another person to evade a tax or fee imposed by this chapter;
(f) Knowingly operate a conveyance for the purpose of hauling, transporting, or delivering special fuel in bulk and not possess an invoice, bill of sale, or other statement showing the name, address, and tax license number of the seller or consignor, the destination, the name, address, and tax license number of the purchaser or consignee, and the number of gallons.
(2)(a) A single violation of subsection (1)(a) of this section is a gross misdemeanor under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
(b) Multiple violations of subsection (1)(a) of this section and violations of subsection (1)(b) through (f) of this section are a class C felony under chapter 9A.20 RCW.
(3) In addition to other penalties and remedies provided by law, the court shall order a person or corporation found guilty of violating subsection (1)(b) through (f) of this section to:
(a) Pay the tax or fee evaded plus interest, commencing at the date the tax or fee was first due, at the rate of twelve percent per year, compounded monthly; and
(b) Pay a penalty of one hundred percent of the tax evaded, to the multimodal transportation account of the state.
(4) The tax imposed by this chapter is held in trust by the licensee until paid to the department, and a licensee who appropriates the tax to his or her own use or to any use other than the payment of the tax on the due date as prescribed in this chapter is guilty of a felony or gross misdemeanor in accordance with the theft and anticipatory provisions of Title 9A RCW. A person, partnership, corporation, or corporate officer who fails to pay to the department the tax imposed by this chapter is personally liable to the state for the amount of the tax.
[ 2007 c 515 § 30; 2003 c 358 § 14; 2000 2nd sp.s. c 4 § 10; 1995 c 287 § 4; 1979 c 40 § 19; 1977 c 26 § 4; 1971 ex.s. c 175 § 28.]
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on July 12, 2016, 10:08:57 PM
No Big Tex on this?
:dunno: Thinking big Tex is not a regular type road LEO GUY. :chuckle:
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 12, 2016, 10:17:06 PM
Since it is tax related, I wonder if it falls under the list of 'white collar' crimes that don't really impact you--like loans, gun possession, school admission, etc.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on July 13, 2016, 07:39:04 AM
I noticed that AMSOIL sells several diesel fuel additives that just happen to include a dye. Nicely played I think.
I don't believe that is correct
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/fuel-additives/
Post by: dyhardhuntr on July 13, 2016, 10:14:11 AM
Post by: headshot5 on July 13, 2016, 11:08:35 AM
Quote
I agree, just different colored bottles and labels. I wonder if you could add something as simple as vegetable dye/food coloring to change the color to something completely different. Might be worth it just to see the face of the inspector when he pulls out a test strip that is bright purple!
I really do wonder how they feel about people running Waste Vegetable Oil, and Waste motor oil. Seems like they would be angry since they are not getting their fuel road tax on it.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on July 13, 2016, 11:12:22 AM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on July 13, 2016, 12:55:47 PM
I noticed that AMSOIL sells several diesel fuel additives that just happen to include a dye. Nicely played I think.
I don't believe that is correct
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/fuel-additives/
I agree, just different colored bottles and labels. I wonder if you could add something as simple as vegetable dye/food coloring to change the color to something completely different. Might be worth it just to see the face of the inspector when he pulls out a test strip that is bright purple!
I was curious.
Per Wikipedia - The dyes used have to be soluble in the fuels they are added to and therefore in hydrocarbon-based nonpolar solvents ("solvent dyes"). Red dyes are often various diazo dyes, e.g., Solvent Red 19, Solvent Red 24, and Solvent Red 26. Anthraquinone dyes are used for green and blue shades, e.g., Solvent Green 33, Solvent Blue 35 and Solvent Blue 26.
Before all of the emission regulations started in 2007 with DPF equipped semis and trucks the red diesel was for off road only and had a higher btu rating and s higher sulfur content than the on road diesel( hence the Low sulfur only stickers at the pump). Low sulfur turned into ultra low sulfur around 2010 for the new round of EPA regulations.The Caterpillar class I took for the 2007 engine was informed that red diesel would plug up the DPf due to a higher btu and higher sulfur content. Now with tier 4 engines in new equipment that have to run ultra low sulfur I'm not sure if the red diesel is ultra low with dye or what. Like others have said red dye diesel is non taxable and for off road only. I wouldn't take the chance to save a few bucks :twocents:
According to Masco Petroleum it is all the same now other than color and price.
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on July 13, 2016, 02:50:30 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Special T on July 13, 2016, 07:56:21 PM
There are rcws for wvo but not wmo. Wmo is considered no tax fuel. The one thing I'm not sure of is if the state has determined a % for additives.QuoteI agree, just different colored bottles and labels. I wonder if you could add something as simple as vegetable dye/food coloring to change the color to something completely different. Might be worth it just to see the face of the inspector when he pulls out a test strip that is bright purple!
I really do wonder how they feel about people running Waste Vegetable Oil, and Waste motor oil. Seems like they would be angry since they are not getting their fuel road tax on it.
Post by: MisplacedAlaskan on July 14, 2016, 06:41:32 AM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on July 14, 2016, 07:28:25 AM
I think if the IRS checked me and I had red fuel in the tank I would go the Loretta Lynch route and plead the 5th. I'm sure that would work and I would avoid a fine. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Tell them you called WADOT and got permission...
:peep: