Post by: syndac on September 26, 2016, 11:45:46 AM
Should I look elsewhere than the Mt. Leecher area?
Post by: cooltimber on September 26, 2016, 12:11:16 PM
save yourself the misery of the pumpkin patch on every easy access hill side and hunt Blacktail's
Post by: boneaddict on September 26, 2016, 12:21:08 PM
Post by: syndac on September 26, 2016, 02:38:21 PM
save yourself the misery of the pumpkin patch on every easy access hill side and hunt Blacktail's
I'd love to, but with blacktail primarily being on the westide (based off a little research, no experience), I worry about the increase in number of hunters.
The valleys deer population is at the lowest I have seen it in My lifetime. I think it's even worse than after a couple of the big winters.
Bummer. Thanks for the info. Any idea what other general areas/GMUs I should look into? I'd imagine these are fairly closely-guarded, so I'm not looking for specifics. Just trying to figure out how to get started.
Post by: wsmnut on September 26, 2016, 02:45:54 PM
Scary. I'm not Boneaddict but there has been a huge drop in the number of deer since last year. I have a few spots that always yield a few does. This time zilch.
Some talk in the neighborhood of wolves up Benson Creek and up by Wenner Lakes?
Not sure. Lots of coyote and bear sign, but darn little deer.
I still think the extra couple days of hunting last year and this year are a mistake.
And I also saw fractions of the usual amount of "local" deer in the alfalfa fields in the valley.
Good Luck!
Post by: syndac on September 27, 2016, 09:15:17 AM
I just got back from a week in 239.
Not sure. Lots of coyote and bear sign, but darn little deer.
Thanks for the info. Sounds like I need to scout out a different GMU.
Post by: cooltimber on September 27, 2016, 09:51:23 AM
Post by: syndac on September 27, 2016, 10:13:01 AM
what city are you near, doesn't say in your summary. Have you looked into 209.
I'm near Seattle. I looked at 209 for the WDFW statistics from last year, but it's a bit too far away. I'm shooting for a 3-4 hour drive.
Post by: MADMAX on September 27, 2016, 10:46:32 AM
waaaaay down
Post by: eliandsky on September 27, 2016, 01:10:55 PM
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Post by: Boss .300 winmag on September 27, 2016, 01:41:51 PM
Post by: OutHouse on September 27, 2016, 02:17:07 PM
The valleys deer population is at the lowest I have seen it in My lifetime. I think it's even worse than after a couple of the big winters. There is an illusion of an abundance of local deer, but even they are down if compared to historic levels. You'll hear from a couple that say, oh I see lots. Ok. I've been at this a long time, and it's pitiful. No games, just an honest report. You can still get lucky, but good luck.
I think you are right. I have a place up in 231. I have been seeing some nice white tail bucks but mule numbers are down for sure. Normally I have about 10 big white tail bucks around, and this year there are three. And they are just your average three pointers with eye guards but nothing massive. Well I take it back there was one toad but I think he left. I think there are still a lot of valley deer in Mazama but up on the ridges it looks scarce.
Post by: PastorJoel on September 27, 2016, 10:25:52 PM
Post by: MtnMuley on September 27, 2016, 10:57:41 PM
Post by: samsqatch on September 28, 2016, 08:42:14 AM
Sorry for my rant but its wrong and I cant help but be pissed.
p.s If any one would like to read or see the sign it located at the crossover from Beaver creek to Bear creek and needs to be taken down due to it no longer being any truth to what it says.
Post by: boneaddict on September 28, 2016, 06:17:14 PM
Primarily because of the season dates last year and the huge numbers of mature bucks killed. 2 major fire years took away much of the winter range as well. Big snow year last year pretty much rounded it out. All that and the biggest waste of air bio in the history of mule deer and you have it in a nutshell why it's pathetic.
Throw in a dozen or two wolves, some unwarranted antlerless harvest and you have it in a nutshell ( or that falls into the waste of air bio category)
Post by: johnsc6 on September 28, 2016, 06:47:32 PM
:yeah:our game department is inept, the biologists are years behind actual numbers and even when they do get it right the commision sets the seasonsPrimarily because of the season dates last year and the huge numbers of mature bucks killed. 2 major fire years took away much of the winter range as well. Big snow year last year pretty much rounded it out. All that and the biggest waste of air bio in the history of mule deer and you have it in a nutshell why it's pathetic.
Throw in a dozen or two wolves, some unwarranted antlerless harvest and you have it in a nutshell ( or that falls into the waste of air bio category)
Post by: MtnMuley on September 28, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
Primarily because of the season dates last year and the huge numbers of mature bucks killed. 2 major fire years took away much of the winter range as well. Big snow year last year pretty much rounded it out. All that and the biggest waste of air bio in the history of mule deer and you have it in a nutshell why it's pathetic.
Throw in a dozen or two wolves, some unwarranted antlerless harvest and you have it in a nutshell ( or that falls into the waste of air bio category)
Absolutely correct. Mine was just a quick rant.
Post by: DBLDWN on September 28, 2016, 08:31:00 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 03, 2016, 07:40:34 PM
Post by: WAnoob on October 03, 2016, 09:26:30 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 03, 2016, 09:30:46 PM
Primarily because of the season dates last year and the huge numbers of mature bucks killed. 2 major fire years took away much of the winter range as well. Big snow year last year pretty much rounded it out. All that and the biggest waste of air bio in the history of mule deer and you have it in a nutshell why it's pathetic.
Throw in a dozen or two wolves, some unwarranted antlerless harvest and you have it in a nutshell ( or that falls into the waste of air bio category)
Absolutely correct. Mine was just a quick rant.
Can't believe you left those out. You're slipping, bud.
Post by: 7mmfan on October 04, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
Post by: rbi999 on October 04, 2016, 08:45:48 AM
Post by: cbond3318 on October 04, 2016, 09:22:11 AM
Post by: Elkrunner on October 04, 2016, 09:33:09 AM
Post by: huntnphool on October 04, 2016, 01:59:18 PM
We dodged a bullet there! :tup:
Post by: Elkrunner on October 04, 2016, 02:11:28 PM
Well it's certainly a good thing WDFW issued 1000 additional doe tags as well as increased rut tags in 2014 or else the ENTIRE herd would be gone do to bad weather and starvation, rather than just most of the herd!
We dodged a bullet there! :tup:
I'm still trying to figure out how many does were taken from those tags. Does anyone know?
Post by: Griz231 on October 04, 2016, 02:33:27 PM
District 6 Totals
Antlerless 584
2014 Deer General Season
Antlerless Modern 0 - Archery 337 - Multiple Weapons 20 - Muzzleloader 0
So I'd say in District 6 there were 941 Antlerless but that is probably Mule and Whitetail combined and not sure if they included the extra doe tags they gave out.
Post by: WARHORSE on October 04, 2016, 02:35:34 PM
Post by: Griz231 on October 04, 2016, 02:35:50 PM
Deer Special Permits
Antlerless 365
Deer General
Anterless 273
Total of 638
So the question is did the 2014 numbers for special permits include the extra doe tags
Post by: Griz231 on October 04, 2016, 02:40:07 PM
General and Permit combined so dang near a 1000 more antlered killed last year.
2013 was 1941 total antlered killed.
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 04, 2016, 05:42:12 PM
Post by: Griz231 on October 04, 2016, 05:44:47 PM
Probably most likely gonna be a tough season! But I'm gonna hunt hard the whole 11 days as I have it all off! Maybe it'll just be 5-10 miles of hiking everyday without seeing much, but I'll be in beautiful country and not at work!You got the right attitude. Hit multiple elevations till you find them. Looks like the extended forecast will help us out with some cold and snow. I'm headed up on Thursday to scope it out more.
Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 04, 2016, 06:09:26 PM
I hunt in the 5500'-7500' area most - last yr about wore out a pair of boots while the boys were stackin em up down low - then towards the end it lit up
Post by: WAnoob on October 04, 2016, 06:24:43 PM
Yep that's the plan! Hopefully the weather does pull thru?
I hunt in the 5500'-7500' area most - last yr about wore out a pair of boots while the boys were stackin em up down low - then towards the end it lit up
Might see you out there, I'm headed out with a new partner. The whole area is a first for me and I'm gonna be persistent for the 5 days I have.
Post by: note2self on October 04, 2016, 09:20:36 PM
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Post by: Sakko300wsm on October 04, 2016, 09:30:16 PM
Good luck
Post by: note2self on October 05, 2016, 01:17:06 AM
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Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 05, 2016, 05:36:56 AM
Well it's certainly a good thing WDFW issued 1000 additional doe tags as well as increased rut tags in 2014 or else the ENTIRE herd would be gone do to bad weather and starvation, rather than just most of the herd!
We dodged a bullet there! :tup:
Sarcasm will get you no where. It's pathetic what they have done to this herd.
Post by: huntnphool on October 05, 2016, 11:07:23 AM
Well it's certainly a good thing WDFW issued 1000 additional doe tags as well as increased rut tags in 2014 or else the ENTIRE herd would be gone do to bad weather and starvation, rather than just most of the herd!
We dodged a bullet there! :tup:
Sarcasm will get you no where. It's pathetic what they have done to this herd.
;)
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 28, 2023, 06:12:24 AM
Some attitudes have changed since 2016.
Post by: wilywin on October 28, 2023, 07:31:39 AM
This thread is disappointing to me. This is my first year hunting and I was really hoping to get into some animals in these areas. Looks like it will be a bit of a challenge.Dont listen to it. i have been hunting there for over 30 years and saw more deer this year then i ever have! The trick is you have to get out of your truck! most of the hunters in these areas just like to drive around in there fancy trucks with the heater on and then complain there are no deer as they drive back down to there 40foot RV and watch a movie! lol. plenty of deer! you just have to know where they are and go after them! or just cross your fingers and hope you get lucky like most do!
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Post by: ghosthunter on October 28, 2023, 09:16:21 AM
This thread is disappointing to me. This is my first year hunting and I was really hoping to get into some animals in these areas. Looks like it will be a bit of a challenge.Dont listen to it. i have been hunting there for over 30 years and saw more deer this year then i ever have! The trick is you have to get out of your truck! most of the hunters in these areas just like to drive around in there fancy trucks with the heater on and then complain there are no deer as they drive back down to there 40foot RV and watch a movie! lol. plenty of deer! you just have to know where they are and go after them! or just cross your fingers and hope you get lucky like most do!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sorry, but it’s not that easy.
I have been hunting one of those units over 35 years. And this year was dismal 7-10 hunters in my camp out everyday on the ridges and not one legal Buck was seen. Few doe, couple small bucks.
When the deer numbers were up you couldn’t drive that unit without seeing doe. Now you are lucky to see one in the woods.
I did not talk to one person who saw a shooter and one person who heard someone shot one. I lived in that unit in a tent the entire season.
So if you are getting it done good for you. But the numbers are the lowest in years.
You use to drive over aroundTwin Lakes and see hundreds of deer feeding. Not one when I drove there in end of September.
My group don’t hunt private or close to border with private all NF.
While grouse hunting in years past I would see deer. Not this year not one on public lands.
September thru October in areas from Cub Creek to Carlton and few deer.
So a new guy to those areas has a lot to think about. :twocents:
Post by: bankwalker on October 28, 2023, 07:05:31 PM
I was shocked. I've never been in methow valley and not seen at least a couple dozen different groups of does/fawns
Post by: kirkl on October 28, 2023, 08:04:20 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 28, 2023, 10:19:35 PM
Welcome back!
Some attitudes have changed since 2016.
What attitudes have changed in 7 years?
Post by: wolfbait on October 29, 2023, 07:56:11 AM
In 2004 we could see the drop in deer, and from that time on it dropped every year some years worse than others. In 2004 a WDFW guy said it was the wolves that were being released that was causing the drop. Then you add cougar and bear management-end of hound hunting- excessive predation.
2010-2011 was the worst year I have ever seen for predation by cougars and wolves, from Mazama to Black Canyon, it was a slaughter.
By the time the 2014 fire hit our deer herds had already hit low numbers, I honestly believe we had plenty of habitat to support the number of deer we had then.
I talk to a guy when I was fueling up who was in the Methow for the doe hunt, he said their party had filled half their tags and were coming back the next weekend to finish up. The fire was an excuse for WDFW to kill off a bunch more deer. I don't think some people understand what happens when you kill does that produce one to two fawns per year, or maybe they just don't give a dam.
Each year we would see the drop in deer, last year was a horrible winter for deer, too much snow. People who had never fed deer in the 50-60 years they lived in the Methow, fed the deer. The deer would huddle around houses, they traveled the roads from house to house it was a pitiful sight. Meanwhile where was the agency that was suppose to be managing these animals? They ran to the media with another BS article about the damage people are doing to the deer by feeding them, that is a perfect example of where the deer have gone. WDFW have managed for No deer, they have done everything in their power to hurt the deer! And in the mean time they protect predators above all else.
I don't quite understand the shock at the deer numbers some have, we watched it happen for several years now. As I have said before in 2008 we fed over a hundred head with our broncs, we along with others who have had deer coming in to feed with stock have seen the drop in deer numbers year after year to what it is today, these deer will never recover, WDFW's plan from the beginning, their end goal, do away with hunting, kill off your food, they have just about succeeded.
Meanwhile on the predator end of things, we have seen cougars on the Valley floor throughout the summer for the last five er so years. Over on the Okanogan side, in Spring Coulee a very skinny cougar killed 2 goats in two night about a month ago, it was trapped shot. And just a few days ago another cougar killed two more of their goats, the people are thinking of selling out while they still have something left to sell.
Early this summer wolves killed 7 goats in broad daylight just off the Valley floor. The bear seem to be doing real well. And every year the "lookout pack" seems to have at least 12 in the pack, Benson creek pack is doing real well, The Rendezvous has a pack, they came with collars, how many packs are there? WDFW aren't interested in confirming packs until they are really sure there is a pack, usually takes about 10-12 years, and sometimes they never are discovered despite the sightings.
It's too bad WDFW didn't manage the deer like they did the predators, think where the deer herds would be today.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 29, 2023, 09:36:35 AM
The posts below all mention human causes as the reason the herds are where their at. Fast forward to the newer thread 7 years later and the same folks are now talking predators are the reason. Which is it?
AGAIN, not necessarily disagreeing about the massive impact predators did have/are having, on the ungulates, and I'm not trying to pick on those quoted (From what I know you all have EXCELLANT knowledge of our critters). I just believe that the things we can currently have an affect on (human related) ungulate mortalities, get thrown away to easily by screaming PREDATORS at the top of our lungs.
I must say I agree with bone 100 percent, I just returned from 5 days of scouting the area and in the 51 years I have hunted and scouted the area it was the worst I have seen as far as numbers, my dad has 75 years of hunting the valley and he was with me, he said "the worst he has ever seen". We hit a lot of different elevations, honey holes and areas where we usually see good numbers and good bucks........horrible to say the least! We will be hunting a different part of the state this year. I agree with what others have said, a combination of fires, doe harvests, a tough winter and an over the top harvest of big bucks last year all add up to dissmall numbers. I think it will be at least a few years before things start looking up unfortunately.
Quote from: boneaddict on September 28, 2016, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: MtnMuley on September 27, 2016, 10:57:41 PM
Primarily because of the season dates last year and the huge numbers of mature bucks killed. 2 major fire years took away much of the winter range as well. Big snow year last year pretty much rounded it out. All that and the biggest waste of air bio in the history of mule deer and you have it in a nutshell why it's pathetic.
Throw in a dozen or two wolves, some unwarranted antlerless harvest and you have it in a nutshell ( or that falls into the waste of air bio category)
Absolutely correct. Mine was just a quick rant.
Post by: bigmacc on October 29, 2023, 10:52:57 AM
Post by: huntnphool on October 29, 2023, 11:31:54 AM
PHOOL,
The posts below all mention human causes as the reason the herds are where their at. Fast forward to the newer thread 7 years later and the same folks are now talking predators are the reason. Which is it?
AGAIN, not necessarily disagreeing about the massive impact predators did have/are having, on the ungulates, and I'm not trying to pick on those quoted (From what I know you all have EXCELLANT knowledge of our critters). I just believe that the things we can currently have an affect on (human related) ungulate mortalities, get thrown away to easily by screaming PREDATORS at the top of our lungs.I must say I agree with bone 100 percent, I just returned from 5 days of scouting the area and in the 51 years I have hunted and scouted the area it was the worst I have seen as far as numbers, my dad has 75 years of hunting the valley and he was with me, he said "the worst he has ever seen". We hit a lot of different elevations, honey holes and areas where we usually see good numbers and good bucks........horrible to say the least! We will be hunting a different part of the state this year. I agree with what others have said, a combination of fires, doe harvests, a tough winter and an over the top harvest of big bucks last year all add up to dissmall numbers. I think it will be at least a few years before things start looking up unfortunately.
Quote from: boneaddict on September 28, 2016, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: MtnMuley on September 27, 2016, 10:57:41 PM
Primarily because of the season dates last year and the huge numbers of mature bucks killed. 2 major fire years took away much of the winter range as well. Big snow year last year pretty much rounded it out. All that and the biggest waste of air bio in the history of mule deer and you have it in a nutshell why it's pathetic.
Throw in a dozen or two wolves, some unwarranted antlerless harvest and you have it in a nutshell ( or that falls into the waste of air bio category)
Absolutely correct. Mine was just a quick rant.
I hear ya.
Post by: timberfaller on October 29, 2023, 12:36:27 PM
Things changed greatly when the departments where joined for sure, even Hunter Ed went south for a while! Better known as Micro Managing by idiots! Biggest problem is the young generation doesn't like to listen to the old codgers!! Experience is a better teacher then any book learning one might exhibit!!
Post by: jackelope on October 30, 2023, 10:10:55 AM
Welcome back!
Some attitudes have changed since 2016.
What attitudes have changed in 7 years?
I feel like it's ok for peoples' views on things to change over the years. We live and we learn. Some people probably won't agree with that, but really, that's the way it should be if you ask me. Being too stuck in your ways isn't a good thing.
Post by: baldopepper on October 30, 2023, 10:49:53 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 30, 2023, 11:12:16 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 30, 2023, 12:21:59 PM
I grouse hunt the high country every year. The past half dozen I have not seen one deer and I am way from the road. So it doesn't surprise me hunters did better because let's face it a majority like the convenience of being closer to town. Twisp was full of hunters opening weekend which is good for the local economy and makes a good showing that hunting is here to stay.
Post by: baldopepper on October 30, 2023, 01:01:45 PM
I know several in our area who keep pretty good herds around their house by simply throwing out a few handfuls of corn everyday. Guess I'm kinda guilty myself, wife loves seeing the deer and I've got a faithful herd of 30-40 that hang out around the house (she's kinda getting tired of them eating everything she plants except the lavender though). Doesn't seem like a big deal until you realize how many people are doing it and see the bunches of deer they've basically.domesticated.
Post by: KP-Skagit on October 30, 2023, 01:57:10 PM
What your going to find is deer have moved into the lower valleys more even during the summer. That's not just white tail now it's also mule deer. I have both on my property. Predators push the deer closer to town for security.
I grouse hunt the high country every year. The past half dozen I have not seen one deer and I am way from the road. So it doesn't surprise me hunters did better because let's face it a majority like the convenience of being closer to town. Twisp was full of hunters opening weekend which is good for the local economy and makes a good showing that hunting is here to stay.
I have observed this as well. Used to be only whitetail around our place down in the river bottom, we would see mule deer in the late spring for a week or two only. This year we just have a couple whitetail does, zero bucks that I have seen. However, we had 8 legal mule deer bucks on our property during archery season, a couple that were very respectable deer. And there was even more does. I was kicking myself when I left my bow at home when we were basecamping there for my dad's sheep ewe hunt.
And its worth noting that the predators come with them. Every winter there are cougars that come down. I have cam pics of them 50 feet from our front porch. Always a bunch of kills around that you find in the spring. These are some hefty cats, not the DFW narrative that only the starving young ones hunt close to people.
Post by: boneaddict on October 30, 2023, 02:57:15 PM
This thread is disappointing to me. This is my first year hunting and I was really hoping to get into some animals in these areas. Looks like it will be a bit of a challenge.Dont listen to it. i have been hunting there for over 30 years and saw more deer this year then i ever have! The trick is you have to get out of your truck! most of the hunters in these areas just like to drive around in there fancy trucks with the heater on and then complain there are no deer as they drive back down to there 40foot RV and watch a movie! lol. plenty of deer! you just have to know where they are and go after them! or just cross your fingers and hope you get lucky like most do!
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Lol, sure, those people existed in the 80s too. They’d come into the gas station sad they hadn’t seen a deer, while that morning I had been out hunting for an hour and counted 250 or so. I’d be hard pressed to do that nowadays, even for the day. I hunted hard all day yesterday and came up with 12 bucks including 3 whities. Pretty slow day for me. Interesting enough, I only saw one two point. Makes me wonder about fawn recruitment.
I’m pretty sure I mentioned wolves in 2016 and I am still mentioning them in 2023. Still the same piss poor management and still the same outcome.
Post by: bigmacc on October 30, 2023, 03:10:40 PM
:yeah: :tup:This thread is disappointing to me. This is my first year hunting and I was really hoping to get into some animals in these areas. Looks like it will be a bit of a challenge.Dont listen to it. i have been hunting there for over 30 years and saw more deer this year then i ever have! The trick is you have to get out of your truck! most of the hunters in these areas just like to drive around in there fancy trucks with the heater on and then complain there are no deer as they drive back down to there 40foot RV and watch a movie! lol. plenty of deer! you just have to know where they are and go after them! or just cross your fingers and hope you get lucky like most do!
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Lol, sure, those people existed in the 80s too. They’d come into the gas station sad they hadn’t seen a deer, while that morning I had been out hunting for an hour and counted 250 or so. I’d be hard pressed to do that nowadays, even for the day. I hunted hard all day yesterday and came up with 12 bucks including 3 whities. Pretty slow day for me. Interesting enough, I only saw one two point. Makes me wonder about fawn recruitment.
I’m pretty sure I mentioned wolves in 2016 and I am still mentioning them in 2023. Still the same piss poor management and still the same outcome.
Post by: bigmacc on October 30, 2023, 03:20:04 PM
Post by: mountainman on October 30, 2023, 03:36:27 PM
This👆:yeah: :tup:This thread is disappointing to me. This is my first year hunting and I was really hoping to get into some animals in these areas. Looks like it will be a bit of a challenge.Dont listen to it. i have been hunting there for over 30 years and saw more deer this year then i ever have! The trick is you have to get out of your truck! most of the hunters in these areas just like to drive around in there fancy trucks with the heater on and then complain there are no deer as they drive back down to there 40foot RV and watch a movie! lol. plenty of deer! you just have to know where they are and go after them! or just cross your fingers and hope you get lucky like most do!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lol, sure, those people existed in the 80s too. They’d come into the gas station sad they hadn’t seen a deer, while that morning I had been out hunting for an hour and counted 250 or so. I’d be hard pressed to do that nowadays, even for the day. I hunted hard all day yesterday and came up with 12 bucks including 3 whities. Pretty slow day for me. Interesting enough, I only saw one two point. Makes me wonder about fawn recruitment.
I’m pretty sure I mentioned wolves in 2016 and I am still mentioning them in 2023. Still the same piss poor management and still the same outcome.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 30, 2023, 04:34:25 PM
2016 timeline had zero talk of cats or bears, and only Bone mentioned wolves. All the posts referenced to human caused mortalities.
So I’m learning that predators were still the #1 cause of the herds decline in 2016……(how come you didn’t say it then bigmacc) why was all the talk about fires/ habitat/ winter range /hunter doe kills? :dunno:
Post by: bigmacc on October 30, 2023, 05:00:14 PM
I’m not saying deer numbers aren’t wayyy down.I will answer respectfully, look at my latest post. Multifaceted. I’ll say it again. Almost 30 years have passed since the demise of our Game Department AND when we took the gloves off as far as how we handled predators. A lot can happen in 3 decades. Slowly. Predators did not explode over night. Mother Nature has wreaked havoc since the beginning of time, folks have homesteaded and encroached for 100,s of years. Game numbers, well, up and down. I’m not concerned with what happened a thousand years ago or even 100. What we have now concerning our herds has happened in the last 50 let’s say. The demise of a true”Game Department”, the demise of controlling multiple predators that are more knowledgeable than us at killing and they do it 24/ 7/365. And the introduction of another predator….. guess what, they want to introduce another! At least officially 😆👍 I don’t know you, I get where your coming from but if your as old as me, tell me how many cougars you used to see, or sign, tell me how many bear you seen, tell me how much wolf sign you see, coyote? Hell, I shot 6 this year! I still carry a bear tag and a cat tag in my wallet. I’m going back to the 50,s. Deer and Elk were managed for hunters, not predators back in those days. The better the herds, the more money came in. You know what, more money comes in nowadays from antis. Predators are being managed and coddled to stop hunting in this state. I won’t be around when it happens but it will happen, I promise. 3 relatives that work for different game department’s, this state is the worst.
2016 timeline had zero talk of cats or bears, and only Bone mentioned wolves. All the posts referenced to human caused mortalities.
So I’m learning that predators were still the #1 cause of the herds decline in 2016……(how come you didn’t say it then bigmacc) why was all the talk about fires/ habitat/ winter range /hunter doe kills? :dunno:
Post by: baldopepper on October 30, 2023, 05:04:07 PM
.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 31, 2023, 11:47:42 AM
Not saying that wolves are not part of the problem, but how do you explain the dramatic decline in deer herds throughout.the west, including those without wolves? Utah, Colorado. Nevada are all reporting big declines in their herds.To think that wolves are the major cause is obviously just not true. Wolves are just part of a big puzzle that no game management people have been able or are willing to address. Don't get me wrong, I don't like em around- but we can't put all our efforts to restore herds into the wolf fight.
.
Winner winner!
Compare the states 2 biggest muley herds.
1 has had a lot more wolves than the other, and for a lot longer.
BOTH herds are in the dumps.
What’s the difference?
@bigmacc. I see way less predators now than I did in the good ole days.
Why? Because there is currently less food available (ungulates)to sustain them? (Sorry forgot punctuation)
You state you carry bear/coug tags every year, and that you see them,and sign of them everywhere.
How many of each have YOU killed in the last 10 years?
Post by: Mtnwalker on October 31, 2023, 11:54:18 AM
Not saying that wolves are not part of the problem, but how do you explain the dramatic decline in deer herds throughout.the west, including those without wolves? Utah, Colorado. Nevada are all reporting big declines in their herds.To think that wolves are the major cause is obviously just not true. Wolves are just part of a big puzzle that no game management people have been able or are willing to address. Don't get me wrong, I don't like em around- but we can't put all our efforts to restore herds into the wolf fight.
.
Winner winner!
Compare the states 2 biggest muley herds.
1 has had a lot more wolves than the other, and for a lot longer.
BOTH herds are in the dumps.
What’s the difference?
@bigmacc. I see way less predators now than I did in the good ole days.
Why? Because there is currently less food available (ungulates)to sustain them.
You state you carry bear/coug tags every year, and that you see them,and sign of them everywhere.
How many of each have YOU killed in the last 10 years?
Just to clarify here, are you stating that predator populations are actually lower now than in previous decades?
Post by: baldopepper on October 31, 2023, 12:36:32 PM
Personally not saying that. I'm confident that lion numbers are way up. My point is simply looking at other states with no wolves and very active predator control, deer numbers are still in decline. Obviously there are other factors having a bigger impact than wolves. Do I think we need keep the predator population in balance? Yes! But thinking we can wipe them out and the deer and elk populations will suddenly boom again is a fallacy. The human encroachment factor is a far bigger contributor in my opinion, and also that of biologists in states with no wolves and active predator control.Not saying that wolves are not part of the problem, but how do you explain the dramatic decline in deer herds throughout.the west, including those without wolves? Utah, Colorado. Nevada are all reporting big declines in their herds.To think that wolves are the major cause is obviously just not true. Wolves are just part of a big puzzle that no game management people have been able or are willing to address. Don't get me wrong, I don't like em around- but we can't put all our efforts to restore herds into the wolf fight.
.
Winner winner!
Compare the states 2 biggest muley herds.
1 has had a lot more wolves than the other, and for a lot longer.
BOTH herds are in the dumps.
What’s the difference?
@bigmacc. I see way less predators now than I did in the good ole days.
Why? Because there is currently less food available (ungulates)to sustain them.
You state you carry bear/coug tags every year, and that you see them,and sign of them everywhere.
How many of each have YOU killed in the last 10 years?
Just to clarify here, are you stating that predator populations are actually lower now than in previous decades?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 31, 2023, 01:25:26 PM
Not saying that wolves are not part of the problem, but how do you explain the dramatic decline in deer herds throughout.the west, including those without wolves? Utah, Colorado. Nevada are all reporting big declines in their herds.To think that wolves are the major cause is obviously just not true. Wolves are just part of a big puzzle that no game management people have been able or are willing to address. Don't get me wrong, I don't like em around- but we can't put all our efforts to restore herds into the wolf fight.
.
Winner winner!
Compare the states 2 biggest muley herds.
1 has had a lot more wolves than the other, and for a lot longer.
BOTH herds are in the dumps.
What’s the difference?
@bigmacc. I see way less predators now than I did in the good ole days.
Why? Because there is currently less food available (ungulates)to sustain them.
You state you carry bear/coug tags every year, and that you see them,and sign of them everywhere.
How many of each have YOU killed in the last 10 years?
Just to clarify here, are you stating that predator populations are actually lower now than in previous decades?
Nope, I simply forgot to add a question mark after”sustain them”
(Only The big guy upstairs can answer that question.)
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 31, 2023, 01:29:16 PM
Personally not saying that. I'm confident that lion numbers are way up. My point is simply looking at other states with no wolves and very active predator control, deer numbers are still in decline. Obviously there are other factors having a bigger impact than wolves. Do I think we need keep the predator population in balance? Yes! But thinking we can wipe them out and the deer and elk populations will suddenly boom again is a fallacy. The human encroachment factor is a far bigger contributor in my opinion, and also that of biologists in states with no wolves and active predator control.Not saying that wolves are not part of the problem, but how do you explain the dramatic decline in deer herds throughout.the west, including those without wolves? Utah, Colorado. Nevada are all reporting big declines in their herds.To think that wolves are the major cause is obviously just not true. Wolves are just part of a big puzzle that no game management people have been able or are willing to address. Don't get me wrong, I don't like em around- but we can't put all our efforts to restore herds into the wolf fight.
.
Winner winner!
Compare the states 2 biggest muley herds.
1 has had a lot more wolves than the other, and for a lot longer.
BOTH herds are in the dumps.
What’s the difference?
@bigmacc. I see way less predators now than I did in the good ole days.
Why? Because there is currently less food available (ungulates)to sustain them.
You state you carry bear/coug tags every year, and that you see them,and sign of them everywhere.
How many of each have YOU killed in the last 10 years?
Just to clarify here, are you stating that predator populations are actually lower now than in previous decades?
X 1 million.
Somebody gets it :tup: :tup:
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 02:27:58 PM
Our group has killed 9 bears and 3 cats in the last 10 years(5-8 folks). Toped off with about 20 yotes give or take, I killed 2 this year in only 2 days of deer hunting. I couldn’t be there the whole season because of some procedures my wife needed done. How many have we seen in the last 20 years? A heck of a lot! We really only started hunting predators in the last 5-6 years. One pre season scouting trip 5-6 years ago my son and I seen 4 cougars over about a 4 day span, all different cats in different areas. I won’t mention where but there are some on here that know the areas. That’s pretty much when we decided to start focusing/learning how to hunt predators. I myself really have never put much thought into it until then. Seeing 4 cats in 4 days in different areas amazed me. Then after talking with local ranchers I know in the valley and what they see on leased land and in the high country it convinced me that predators were and are becoming a major threat to the herd in the Methow. Up until that 4day span a handful of years ago or so I myself had only seen maybe 3-4 cougars in my life going back 60 years roaming those hills. I have a few cameras out also in a few different areas, last year we had 6 bears, 4 cats and a handful of coyotes on those cameras. 2 of those bears were killed during deer season last year. The cats are a little trickier, we’re still learning👍Not saying that wolves are not part of the problem, but how do you explain the dramatic decline in deer herds throughout.the west, including those without wolves? Utah, Colorado. Nevada are all reporting big declines in their herds.To think that wolves are the major cause is obviously just not true. Wolves are just part of a big puzzle that no game management people have been able or are willing to address. Don't get me wrong, I don't like em around- but we can't put all our efforts to restore herds into the wolf fight.
.
Winner winner!
Compare the states 2 biggest muley herds.
1 has had a lot more wolves than the other, and for a lot longer.
BOTH herds are in the dumps.
What’s the difference?
@bigmacc. I see way less predators now than I did in the good ole days.
Why? Because there is currently less food available (ungulates)to sustain them? (Sorry forgot punctuation)
You state you carry bear/coug tags every year, and that you see them,and sign of them everywhere.
How many of each have YOU killed in the last 10 years?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 31, 2023, 02:44:03 PM
Also please explain to me your thoughts on why there are so few deer, yet massive #'s of cats. (Yes, I know the cats kill deer and many other things)
What are the cats eating as to make their populations expand so much? Seems it would be a tough living trying to keep all the kittens fed when the deer are nearly extinct.
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 03:28:18 PM
How many have YOU killed?2 bear and probably 6 or 7 coyotes (killed 2 yotes this past season in 2days).
Also please explain to me your thoughts on why there are so few deer, yet massive #'s of cats. (Yes, I know the cats kill deer and many other things)
What are the cats eating as to make their populations expand so much? Seems it would be a tough living trying to keep all the kittens fed when the deer are nearly extinct.
I don’t know your turf as you probably don’t know mine the way others on here as well as myself do. I’m not saying nor is anybody saying the Methow is null and void of deer, are numbers down? Hell yes. I remember 30 years and more ago I would see 1-200 deer per day while hunting, even someone who didn’t know the valley of “the spots” but knew how to hunt could see 50 a day. They estimate this herd at 15k give or take, I remember when it was 40k give or take and seeing a bear or a cougar was really cool! The predators have been eating well in the Methow for awhile now, will there be a “tipping point” when predators move out or die off from lack of prey? I would think so. When, I have no idea but talking with folks who do know this kind of stuff it could be 5 years from now or 20 if predators are left unchecked and un managed. There’s no denying the Methow herd is a mere shadow of what numbers were, what’s changed? Well, there’s fires of which there’s been since the beginning of time, there’s brutal winters as there have been since the beginning of time, there’s people and encroachment which started back in the 70,s when the pass opened. As I’ve always said concerning this herd, it’s multifaceted. We lost our game Department, they had this herd as their golden child, agree or disagree with some of what they did, this herd was their “baby”. Did they make mistakes, you bet but there’s no denying this herds health was job 1. We lost how we handled and controlled predators around the same time along with a “new apex” predator “showing up”. Politics entered the realm of management in the valley. The herd dropped down a few rungs on the ladder as far as priority, predators moved up. Once again, my……. MY Number 1 reason this particular herd(Methow, not your turf) is struggling and will continue to is predators and lack of management of those predators. When will the tipping point happen when herd numbers drop to a point that can’t sustain large numbers of predators? I do not know, I do know that there have been a few “skinny looking, malnourished cats” that have been seen over the last few years, the beginning of the tipping point, I don’t know.
Post by: mcrawfordaf on October 31, 2023, 03:28:24 PM
I'd suggest reading through this study https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ecs2.2605 (https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ecs2.2605)
Cougar are incredibly adaptable and are known to supplement their other preferred meals (ungulates) with beaver and other rodents as well as human provided meals.
As far as other mule deer herds in other parts of the US, those declines are accounted for - typically due to severe winters or draughts. Currently half of the Mule Deer jurisdiction in the US are "in decline" while the other half are either increasing or stable. I noticed the largest declines in Oregon, Wyoming and Colorado. WA is hard to account for since WDFW doesn't do the work to separate our species for harvest statistics.
https://wafwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2023-Rangewide-Status-of-Black-tailed-and-Mule-Deer_Linked.pdf (https://wafwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2023-Rangewide-Status-of-Black-tailed-and-Mule-Deer_Linked.pdf)
As most have said, its obviously a combination of factors leading to mule deer herds decreasing and increasing but all studies continue to show the vast majority of mule deer deaths are via predation whether at 0-6mos or as an adult.
I just read "Touching the Wild" by Joe Hutto this month and would highly recommend it to anyone interested in Mule Deer conservation. I'm currently reading through Ecology and Management of Black-Tailed and Mule Deer in North America and Rangeland Wildlife Ecology and Conservation. Both of these are very eye opening into the world of Mule Deer and their historic populations/ranges.
Fewer predators, more habitat :tup:
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 03:35:20 PM
"Hence, our findings build on several previous studies (Kertson et al. 2011a, Moss et al. 2016a, Smith et al. 2016, Blecha et al. 2018) that underscore the dietary flexibility of cougars and suggest that individuals in urbanized environments may be able to persist and perhaps mitigate intra-specific competition for traditional prey by exploiting human-associated food."👍 I have read a few of those studies. 👍 thanks for posting, I ain’t smurt enough to post those links and such😆
I'd suggest reading through this study https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ecs2.2605 (https://esajournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ecs2.2605)
Cougar are incredibly adaptable and are known to supplement their other preferred meals (ungulates) with beaver and other rodents as well as human provided meals.
As far as other mule deer herds in other parts of the US, those declines are accounted for - typically due to severe winters or draughts. Currently half of the Mule Deer jurisdiction in the US are "in decline" while the other half are either increasing or stable. I noticed the largest declines in Oregon, Wyoming and Colorado. WA is hard to account for since WDFW doesn't do the work to separate our species for harvest statistics.
https://wafwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2023-Rangewide-Status-of-Black-tailed-and-Mule-Deer_Linked.pdf (https://wafwa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2023-Rangewide-Status-of-Black-tailed-and-Mule-Deer_Linked.pdf)
As most have said, its obviously a combination of factors leading to mule deer herds decreasing and increasing but all studies continue to show the vast majority of mule deer deaths are via predation whether at 0-6mos or as an adult.
I just read "Touching the Wild" by Joe Hutto this month and would highly recommend it to anyone interested in Mule Deer conservation. I'm currently reading through Ecology and Management of Black-Tailed and Mule Deer in North America and Rangeland Wildlife Ecology and Conservation. Both of these are very eye opening into the world of Mule Deer and their historic populations/ranges.
Fewer predators, more habitat :tup:
Post by: baldopepper on October 31, 2023, 03:57:02 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 04:43:10 PM
I consider wildfires (90% are human caused) and harsh winter kills (to a great extent caused by human caused wildfire and urbaization of prime winter habitat) to be part of the human encroachment problem. We see hunting harvest numbers but we never see any real numbers of road kill animals. Simply more and more traffic on the roads, more animals being hit. Heck, around my place I don't think the predators need to hunt, there's a fresh road kill to eat every couple of miles. I don't discount entirely the predator problem, but I do see a correlation between booming human population growth in the west and sharply declining populations of big game👍👍exactly, multifaceted. There’s many reasons herds are struggling, depending where you are it could be one of them, two of them or a handful of reasons. In my neck of the woods I’ve explained in depth why I think the number 1 is predators. I remember a nephew that got his first job in the Shoshone area around Cody, probably 30-40 years ago maybe :dunno: he would call and say” uncle, you cannot believe the number of road kill down here”. He said they would make the drive between the east entrance of Yellowstone and Cody (maybe 40 miles :dunno:) he would say they would pick up hundreds of deer a month, the truckers had cattle catchers in front of their rigs to just plow through the herds of deer and elk that would stand in the road, licking salt. Well, I seen pictures, some fricken huge bucks, a dime a dozen, rotting in ditches. I guess that area is being overrun with predators nowadays, that stretch between Yellowstone and Cody, tough to see a deer or elk. I guess they’ve picked up some very skinny wolves and cats that have been mowed over, but the days of picking up dozens of elk and deer per week are gone. The beginning of a predator pit ? Once again, I don’t know. What’s the common denominator?
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 31, 2023, 05:50:03 PM
I consider wildfires (90% are human caused) and harsh winter kills (to a great extent caused by human caused wildfire and urbaization of prime winter habitat) to be part of the human encroachment problem. We see hunting harvest numbers but we never see any real numbers of road kill animals. Simply more and more traffic on the roads, more animals being hit. Heck, around my place I don't think the predators need to hunt, there's a fresh road kill to eat every couple of miles. I don't discount entirely the predator problem, but I do see a correlation between booming human population growth in the west and sharply declining populations of big game
This was one of my points in the other thread. It was OK to group predators into one bunch for the sake of mortalities aka "predator pit", but didn't seem to be Ok to group "human caused" mortalities.
Predator/Prey cycles. Looks to me like we are at the top, or near the top of the cycle currently. In Bigmaccs glory days we were most likely at the bottom. And who knows how many years before that, the Methow was at the top of the cycle. Rinse and repeat. This cycle has been ongoing long before humans started to screw with it. So humans are the most obvious deciding factor in overall herd health. IMHO.
Look at WA population densities compared to other Mule deer hunting states like Montana. Do you see the correlation?
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 06:25:49 PM
No more. Nock. You believe your history and your theories. I will believe mine👍 good luck. I know my history, my family journals and 3 different family members in 3 different Game Departments. Alaska, Washington and Idaho. No one will convince me that predators are not impacting our game herds. And that they are not the number 1 reason that in “modern times” , are decimating our deer and elk herds. …. Camp Grisdale? Well, hell that’s another story.I consider wildfires (90% are human caused) and harsh winter kills (to a great extent caused by human caused wildfire and urbaization of prime winter habitat) to be part of the human encroachment problem. We see hunting harvest numbers but we never see any real numbers of road kill animals. Simply more and more traffic on the roads, more animals being hit. Heck, around my place I don't think the predators need to hunt, there's a fresh road kill to eat every couple of miles. I don't discount entirely the predator problem, but I do see a correlation between booming human population growth in the west and sharply declining populations of big game
This was one of my points in the other thread. It was OK to group predators into one bunch for the sake of mortalities aka "predator pit", but didn't seem to be Ok to group "human caused" mortalities.
Predator/Prey cycles. Looks to me like we are at the top, or near the top of the cycle currently. In Bigmaccs glory days we were most likely at the bottom. And who knows how many years before that, the Methow was at the top of the cycle. Rinse and repeat. This cycle has been ongoing long before humans started to screw with it. So humans are the most obvious deciding factor in overall herd health. IMHO.
Look at WA population densities compared to other Mule deer hunting states like Montana. Do you see the correlation?
Another whole history involving a pretty good elk herd.👍
Post by: baldopepper on October 31, 2023, 06:29:40 PM
Post by: Igor on October 31, 2023, 06:32:45 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 07:05:33 PM
LOL-I gotta get you across a campfire and twist your ears a bit bigmac. Last man still sitting straight wins the argument :chuckle:Would love to sir😆 I think we would have a good time.
Post by: bigmacc on October 31, 2023, 07:09:18 PM
Someone here is a glutton for punishment....................My hand is raised Igor. I just can’t help it when I’m called out. I can back up every thought AND story. Thank god for numerous albums and journals.👍😆🤣