Post by: Rob on October 19, 2016, 08:29:57 AM
What are the ethics behind this one?
Post by: Henrydog on October 19, 2016, 08:32:24 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on October 19, 2016, 08:40:23 AM
I think this is one that many hunters struggle with. Good luck on your decision.
Post by: Mudman on October 19, 2016, 09:10:24 AM
Post by: JLS on October 19, 2016, 09:15:30 AM
I have not spent much time hunting doe deer before. This time of year, many does are still with their yearlings. I would assume that the yearlings are old enough to survive without their mothers, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger on a doe with a yearling nearby.
What are the ethics behind this one?
Having the doe around will not have a significant affect on the likelihood of survival for the fawn. However, if you can, shoot a doe without a fawn. She is barren for a reason, either age, low fertility (this is a hereditary trait), bad teeth, etc. By removing her, you are reducing competition for cover, food, bucks that are better spent on the does that have fawns.
Post by: pianoman9701 on October 19, 2016, 09:20:03 AM
Post by: Widgeondeke on October 19, 2016, 09:34:36 AM
Post by: npaull on October 19, 2016, 10:51:50 AM
Post by: boneaddict on October 19, 2016, 10:55:58 AM
Post by: Chesapeake on October 19, 2016, 03:41:24 PM
I try hard not to kill does or cows with yearlings. Not that I'd fault a guy for taking a legal animal.
Post by: EmeraldBullet on October 19, 2016, 03:58:09 PM
Post by: elkboy on October 19, 2016, 04:05:38 PM
I did glance at the scientific literature, and the consensus across papers seems to be that yearlings don't pay a major survival penalty if their dams (mothers) are harvested in the fall of the year. Buck yearlings may actually do better if their mother is harvested, since the young buck will not be forced to emigrate from their mother's home range (Holzenbein and Marchinton 1992, J. Wildl. Mgmt).
All that said, I have taken more does than bucks in my time, since I am basically a meat hunter. Also, a tag filled with a doe instead of a buck can help correct low buck:herd ratios in some areas.
Good luck. Kudos for thinking broadly about the herd!
Post by: Bango skank on October 19, 2016, 04:07:07 PM
I have not spent much time hunting doe deer before. This time of year, many does are still with their yearlings. I would assume that the yearlings are old enough to survive without their mothers, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger on a doe with a yearling nearby.
What are the ethics behind this one?
Having the doe around will not have a significant affect on the likelihood of survival for the fawn. However, if you can, shoot a doe without a fawn. She is barren for a reason, either age, low fertility (this is a hereditary trait), bad teeth, etc. By removing her, you are reducing competition for cover, food, bucks that are better spent on the does that have fawns.
Youre saying if a doe doesnt have fawns this time of year its because shes barren, due to health issues. Im going to have to strongly disagree. A high percentage of does in my area have no fawns by october. The reason is predators, not the does health. Bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, hell ive seen vultures take out a newborn fawn.
Post by: Bango skank on October 19, 2016, 04:19:36 PM
Those yearlings are all about to be kicked out by the does anyway.
Not until next summer when shes getting ready to drop new fawns. Even then the doe fawns will commonly start hanging out with mom again to some extent when fall rolls around. Bucks usually move on to establish new home ranges around 1.5 yrs old. Ive seen one stick with momma until he was 2.5. Just my observations. Im no deer biologist.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 19, 2016, 04:25:48 PM
My decision to shoot a doe is based primarily on my personal assessment of herd quality and dynamics in the specific location I am hunting. For example within a given GMU I may hunt an area on private timber or state land and observe low deer numbers, low fawn survival, high hunter success and TO ME taking a doe does not make much sense even if legal. However I could drive 15 minutes away to a private land apple tree and have a dozen deer invading Mrs. Smiths prized lawn flora and not hesitate to shoot and be excited for the opportunity. I also tend to wait till very late on archery tags and do attempt to take does that appear to be solo. But that is an emotional response and not based on actual scientific data that fawns are less likely to survive.
In the end if hunted legally, meat taken care of and used properly, and killed as humanely as possible you have fulfilled your duty as a hunter IMO.
Post by: Bob33 on October 19, 2016, 04:50:31 PM
Post by: PlateauNDN on October 19, 2016, 05:04:12 PM
Post by: JJB11B on October 19, 2016, 05:08:33 PM
Ethics are the toughest thing out there and something that you have to decide for yourself. I can say that it is legal, the fawn will probably make it through the winter and you have to decide from there. Keep in mind there is no guarantee that the fawn will make it through the winter even with it's mother.Just don't use an AR type rifle and you will be perfectly ethical. Everyone knows you can't ethically kill a deer with an AR Rifle variant.
I think this is one that many hunters struggle with. Good luck on your decision.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 19, 2016, 05:16:42 PM
:chuckle:Ethics are the toughest thing out there and something that you have to decide for yourself. I can say that it is legal, the fawn will probably make it through the winter and you have to decide from there. Keep in mind there is no guarantee that the fawn will make it through the winter even with it's mother.Just don't use an AR type rifle and you will be perfectly ethical. Everyone knows you can't ethically kill a deer with an AR Rifle variant.
I think this is one that many hunters struggle with. Good luck on your decision.
Post by: Cultusman on October 19, 2016, 05:19:12 PM
I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.
Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 19, 2016, 05:39:18 PM
I have passed on quite a few ribby, knobby-hipped lactating does in search of one that looks sleek and rounded. In a last day/hour scenario where I have a choice, I'll take the best looking fawn over the skinny mommy deer.
Post by: brew on October 19, 2016, 06:30:04 PM
what is your view on a good buck to doe ratio and what time of the year would you make that determination ? i was up in the vail unit just after it opened in August and in a 4 hour time frame from basically 8 till noon i saw 65 deer....two of which were bucks (both 2 pts). in my Yelm High School math that is a ratio of 32:1. I am no biologist but that seems a liitle out of balance to me. I had my 60x spotting scope on those over 200 yards away and saw no spikes. Ive hunted that area a lot in the last 30 years because i lived out there. 10 years ago i had a buddy who worked for weyco and had keys to the gates. we literally hunted that area from september to the end of december because we archery hunted. the only times the gates were open was on the weekends of modern firearm and two days during the late season in November--that was about 10 days. there were times in late november when we saw literally 100 deer a day--of which maybe 2 were bucks. there is no way i can believe that was a healthy deer population and i can't believe that during modern season that a huge population of bucks were taken. i don't know the answer on how to raise the buck to doe ratio but i can tell you first hand there is an over abundance of does in that area. yes i understand that killing does will decrease the amount of male deer that are bred into the gene pool but the amount of female deer in an area will decrease the habitat able to withstand male deer. just my :twocents:
I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.
Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.
Post by: JLS on October 19, 2016, 07:44:13 PM
I have not spent much time hunting doe deer before. This time of year, many does are still with their yearlings. I would assume that the yearlings are old enough to survive without their mothers, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger on a doe with a yearling nearby.
What are the ethics behind this one?
Having the doe around will not have a significant affect on the likelihood of survival for the fawn. However, if you can, shoot a doe without a fawn. She is barren for a reason, either age, low fertility (this is a hereditary trait), bad teeth, etc. By removing her, you are reducing competition for cover, food, bucks that are better spent on the does that have fawns.
Youre saying if a doe doesnt have fawns this time of year its because shes barren, due to health issues. Im going to have to strongly disagree. A high percentage of does in my area have no fawns by october. The reason is predators, not the does health. Bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, hell ive seen vultures take out a newborn fawn.
That's fine, we can certainly agree to disagree.
Post by: jay.sharkbait on October 19, 2016, 07:51:20 PM
Post by: Colville on October 19, 2016, 07:59:04 PM
Shoot the yearling. Not bred, might not survive, tastes awesome. I love win win's.
Post by: Bango skank on October 19, 2016, 08:03:26 PM
Problem solved.
Shoot the yearling. Not bred, might not survive, tastes awesome. I love win win's.
And only takes up a fraction of the freezer space :rolleyes:
Post by: Molon5labe on October 19, 2016, 08:05:31 PM
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on October 19, 2016, 08:12:42 PM
Just gonna leave this hereI have not spent much time hunting doe deer before. This time of year, many does are still with their yearlings. I would assume that the yearlings are old enough to survive without their mothers, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger on a doe with a yearling nearby.
What are the ethics behind this one?
Having the doe around will not have a significant affect on the likelihood of survival for the fawn. However, if you can, shoot a doe without a fawn. She is barren for a reason, either age, low fertility (this is a hereditary trait), bad teeth, etc. By removing her, you are reducing competition for cover, food, bucks that are better spent on the does that have fawns.
Youre saying if a doe doesnt have fawns this time of year its because shes barren, due to health issues. Im going to have to strongly disagree. A high percentage of does in my area have no fawns by october. The reason is predators, not the does health. Bears, cougars, wolves, coyotes, hell ive seen vultures take out a newborn fawn.
That's fine, we can certainly agree to disagree.
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetail-365/the-myth-of-the-“old-dry-doe”
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: pd on October 19, 2016, 08:15:45 PM
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetail-365/the-myth-of-the-“old-dry-doe” (http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/whitetail-365/the-myth-of-the-“old-dry-doe”)
Post by: JLS on October 19, 2016, 08:29:21 PM
Post by: andrew_in_idaho on October 19, 2016, 08:29:45 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Cultusman on October 19, 2016, 08:33:37 PM
what is your view on a good buck to doe ratio and what time of the year would you make that determination ? i was up in the vail unit just after it opened in August and in a 4 hour time frame from basically 8 till noon i saw 65 deer....two of which were bucks (both 2 pts). in my Yelm High School math that is a ratio of 32:1. I am no biologist but that seems a liitle out of balance to me. I had my 60x spotting scope on those over 200 yards away and saw no spikes. Ive hunted that area a lot in the last 30 years because i lived out there. 10 years ago i had a buddy who worked for weyco and had keys to the gates. we literally hunted that area from september to the end of december because we archery hunted. the only times the gates were open was on the weekends of modern firearm and two days during the late season in November--that was about 10 days. there were times in late november when we saw literally 100 deer a day--of which maybe 2 were bucks. there is no way i can believe that was a healthy deer population and i can't believe that during modern season that a huge population of bucks were taken. i don't know the answer on how to raise the buck to doe ratio but i can tell you first hand there is an over abundance of does in that area. yes i understand that killing does will decrease the amount of male deer that are bred into the gene pool but the amount of female deer in an area will decrease the habitat able to withstand male deer. just my :twocents:
I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.
Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.
Glad to hear you actually have a deer population.
I wouldn't complain about seeing 65 deer in 4hrs, I drove through one of the local Weyco units a week before the rifle opener, was the only vehicle in the unit and saw 6 deer 2 were spikes. So should we be killing Does in this unit?
Post by: HunterofWA on October 19, 2016, 08:47:39 PM
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.
Sounds as if you are a anti-doe shooter... if you don't like it than big deal, no one should mock you for it, and you shouldn't criticize other's choices on wither or not they should shoot a doe. It takes away the enjoyment of hunting if all we do is bash each other up when all they did is take a doe? as long as it's legal, then I'm fine with it. I personally think that taking a mature doe out of the herd will make a little dent, but that won't last long. If I don't get a buck from now on I will most likely shoot a bigger fawn just cause it's easier to pack out, got some good tender meat, and I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year, thus making no harmful impact of the herd. I think if you don't agree with shooting does that who cares? doesn't bother us :dunno:
Post by: Bango skank on October 19, 2016, 08:57:01 PM
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.
I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year,
I dont know about blacktails, but a percentage of whitetail doe fawns breed their first winter. Not uncommon at all. In fact its the bigger fawns, like youre talking about, that do get bred their first year.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 19, 2016, 09:14:42 PM
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 19, 2016, 09:20:50 PM
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.
I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year,
I dont know about blacktails, but a percentage of whitetail doe fawns breed their first winter. Not uncommon at all. In fact its the bigger fawns, like youre talking about, that do get bred their first year.
They breed their first year, but who knows if it's good for them? Sitka Blacktails definitely breed their first year. In fact I suspect that a good portion of the "second rut" in Alaska is centered around first year does. It's not uncommon at all to find big bucks alone with doe fawns late in the year after the first/main rut.
Post by: crowinghen on October 19, 2016, 09:24:33 PM
I have not spent much time hunting doe deer before. This time of year, many does are still with their yearlings. I would assume that the yearlings are old enough to survive without their mothers, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger on a doe with a yearling nearby.
What are the ethics behind this one?
Having the doe around will not have a significant affect on the likelihood of survival for the fawn. However, if you can, shoot a doe without a fawn. She is barren for a reason, either age, low fertility (this is a hereditary trait), bad teeth, etc. By removing her, you are reducing competition for cover, food, bucks that are better spent on the does that have fawns.
We just had this conversation the other day. We have had a doe with twins on our trail cam, and now we see her in the clear cuts with her twins... would we shoot her if she comes around during archery season? She's a good mama, obviously it's good for the deer population to let her walk... we decided we'd wait and see if the time comes.
Post by: Bango skank on October 19, 2016, 09:47:57 PM
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.
I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year,
I dont know about blacktails, but a percentage of whitetail doe fawns breed their first winter. Not uncommon at all. In fact its the bigger fawns, like youre talking about, that do get bred their first year.
They breed their first year, but who knows if it's good for them? Sitka Blacktails definitely breed their first year. In fact I suspect that a good portion of the "second rut" in Alaska is centered around first year does. It's not uncommon at all to find big bucks alone with doe fawns late in the year after the first/main rut.
Biggest whitetail buck ive ever seen was with a doe fawn in december. Looked all over for his sheds, covered the mountain in cameras, he just appeared out of thin air and disappeared right back into it.
Post by: csaaphill on October 20, 2016, 12:09:09 AM
Post by: dvolmer on October 20, 2016, 09:23:23 AM
I choose not to, one because that means she is fertile and could have a baby again next year. Coupled with my disagreement with current deer management practices. I don't believe an antlerless hunt should be going on right now with the current herd status for most locales. I don't think money and oppurtunity to appease the population should be the reason for an antlerless hunt.
I agree with this somewhat. There are areas that need to be thinned because of overpopulation but they are few if you ask me. The places that I hunt in Eastern Washington could hold and support a lot more animals. Leave all doe permits to the youth, disabled, and senior citizens. Just my two cents and they aren't worth much! On another note, if you are shooting a doe it is wise to shoot one without a fawn just due to it being dry and tasting better. Its just feeding itself and not eating and feeding for two.
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 20, 2016, 09:43:22 AM
We know does are still lactating and fawns are still nursing to some extent well into the hunting season (at least archery). If I suddenly take away a food source, maybe it survives, maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, I fail at two of the primary hunter ethics - quick clean kills and don't waste any meat. Easy enough to go find another doe without a fawn.
I don't get the mindset that "if it's legal, you're good to go". There are lots of legal things that are strongly frowned up in the hunting world. Two stated above, sows with cubs, turkeys on the roost, etc. It's not illegal to tell your grandma to f off on her death bed either. Doesn't mean you should do it.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 20, 2016, 09:48:12 AM
It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money. What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)There's been a little bit of research to suggest ratios and population can even affect antler size. It is thought to be pheromone induced. Basically, if you have lots of does and few bucks the animals pick up the scents of all the other deer and for does it kind of makes them less likely to breed first year or less likely to twin. For bucks it registers to them as there are so many does they don't need to fight or travel much, so the antlers grow kind of smaller. In areas with low doe population density or high buck ratio, the doe pheromones would be at a lower level so the when growing antlers the bucks would be operating under more of a thought of "there's not a lot of does, so need a bigger rack to fight to spread those genes".
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html
Post by: Bango skank on October 20, 2016, 09:58:37 AM
It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money. What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)There's been a little bit of research to suggest ratios and population can even affect antler size. It is thought to be pheromone induced. Basically, if you have lots of does and few bucks the animals pick up the scents of all the other deer and for does it kind of makes them less likely to breed first year or less likely to twin. For bucks it registers to them as there are so many does they don't need to fight or travel much, so the antlers grow kind of smaller. In areas with low doe population density or high buck ratio, the doe pheromones would be at a lower level so the when growing antlers the bucks would be operating under more of a thought of "there's not a lot of does, so need a bigger rack to fight to spread those genes".
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html
Seems a bit far fetched to me. I think its more of a deal where a higher buck to doe ratio is indicative of a more healthy age structure. The two go hand in hand. More mature bucks = more large racked bucks and more rutting behavior like rubs and scrapes. Also more breeding competition, so less does going into a late second estrous, having late born fawns etc.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 20, 2016, 11:07:09 AM
You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush. Take a couple private properties I hunt for example. One is 280 acres and the week before rifle deer season I could sit there and count 20+ deer in one section of field, and that is only looking at 1/3 or 1/2 of the farm. I find it hard to believe that the immediate area could handle too many more deer. Another area is a semi urban area that I archery hunt. I can sit in my blind and see 12-14 deer at once certain times of the day and year, I live in this area and see the damage the deer do to the yards and farms right around me as well as see them struggle in winter. I think some doe harvest is acceptable and needed in these types of areas. I also realize that lots of mule deer and black tail populations aren't in the same boat but I don't have first hand experience with them.I choose not to, one because that means she is fertile and could have a baby again next year. Coupled with my disagreement with current deer management practices. I don't believe an antlerless hunt should be going on right now with the current herd status for most locales. I don't think money and oppurtunity to appease the population should be the reason for an antlerless hunt.
I agree with this somewhat. There are areas that need to be thinned because of overpopulation but they are few if you ask me. The places that I hunt in Eastern Washington could hold and support a lot more animals. Leave all doe permits to the youth, disabled, and senior citizens. Just my two cents and they aren't worth much! On another note, if you are shooting a doe it is wise to shoot one without a fawn just due to it being dry and tasting better. Its just feeding itself and not eating and feeding for two.
Post by: seth30 on October 20, 2016, 11:25:20 AM
I choose not to, one because that means she is fertile and could have a baby again next year. Coupled with my disagreement with current deer management practices. I don't believe an antlerless hunt should be going on right now with the current herd status for most locales. I don't think money and oppurtunity to appease the population should be the reason for an antlerless hunt.do you mean the GMU's near you? Here in my GMU we are overrun by deer, I take does every year... I think they taste better.
Post by: JLS on October 20, 2016, 11:30:14 AM
You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush.
This is a very good point. We will all view this question through the biases we have from the parts of the state we frequent the most.
Post by: Naches Sportsman on October 20, 2016, 11:40:06 AM
You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush.
This is a very good point. We will all view this question through the biases we have from the parts of the state we frequent the most.
I agree with both of these.
Some herds are stronger than others. Out of all the times I've been up to the north central and north east part of the state, I am amazed how many more deer I see compared to Yakima County.
Same thing goes for the area on the way to Pullman. They are almost like rats out there.
Some people may agree that there shouldn't be general seasons in places. Personally, I think deer season should be closed to everyone(including the natives) and special permit only in the 342-368 units. If you look at the harvest rates compared to other units in eastern wa, there is a big difference.
Post by: TRD1911 on October 20, 2016, 11:49:16 AM
I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.
Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.
Same here. I've drawn back on a couple and then let down. I cant be 100% sure that she doesnt have a fawn even if its not with her at the moment. Many times I've bumped a fawn thats been tucked away while momma goes out for a bit. Just not my thing.
Post by: Yakirack on October 20, 2016, 11:51:59 AM
You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush.
This is a very good point. We will all view this question through the biases we have from the parts of the state we frequent the most.
I agree with both of these.
Some herds are stronger than others. Out of all the times I've been up to the north central and north east part of the state, I am amazed how many more deer I see compared to Yakima County.
Same thing goes for the area on the way to Pullman. They are almost like rats out there.
Some people may agree that there shouldn't be general seasons in places. Personally, I think deer season should be closed to everyone(including the natives) and special permit only in the 342-368 units. If you look at the harvest rates compared to other units in eastern wa, there is a big difference.
Agreed :yeah:, in 26 years of hunting I have seen 6 bucks 3pt or better in Yakima County.
Post by: Sumpnneedskillin on October 20, 2016, 12:01:36 PM
It's not uncommon for us to see 4, 5, or even 6 groups of 5 or more does, yearlings, and fawns several times a week. Earlier this week we saw over 40 deer in the span of about a mile. There was one buck, and he was a fork horn.
Post by: krout81 on October 20, 2016, 04:53:24 PM
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Post by: brew on October 20, 2016, 05:11:00 PM
i'm not complaining about seeing 65 deer in 4 hours...what i'm saying is the balance of does:bucks is off and there is no reason why someone shouldn't kill a doe in this area if they had the opportunity...just saying that if the area you are hunting you only saw 6 deer and 2 of which were spikes you may want to reconsider hunting in a different area. different areas should have different bag limits/genders depending upon the area..by saying that someone shouldn't harvest a doe state wide based on the areas that you are hunting is wrongwhat is your view on a good buck to doe ratio and what time of the year would you make that determination ? i was up in the vail unit just after it opened in August and in a 4 hour time frame from basically 8 till noon i saw 65 deer....two of which were bucks (both 2 pts). in my Yelm High School math that is a ratio of 32:1. I am no biologist but that seems a liitle out of balance to me. I had my 60x spotting scope on those over 200 yards away and saw no spikes. Ive hunted that area a lot in the last 30 years because i lived out there. 10 years ago i had a buddy who worked for weyco and had keys to the gates. we literally hunted that area from september to the end of december because we archery hunted. the only times the gates were open was on the weekends of modern firearm and two days during the late season in November--that was about 10 days. there were times in late november when we saw literally 100 deer a day--of which maybe 2 were bucks. there is no way i can believe that was a healthy deer population and i can't believe that during modern season that a huge population of bucks were taken. i don't know the answer on how to raise the buck to doe ratio but i can tell you first hand there is an over abundance of does in that area. yes i understand that killing does will decrease the amount of male deer that are bred into the gene pool but the amount of female deer in an area will decrease the habitat able to withstand male deer. just my :twocents:
I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.
Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.
Glad to hear you actually have a deer population.
I wouldn't complain about seeing 65 deer in 4hrs, I drove through one of the local Weyco units a week before the rifle opener, was the only vehicle in the unit and saw 6 deer 2 were spikes. So should we be killing Does in this unit?
Post by: WAcoueshunter on October 20, 2016, 06:11:20 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 20, 2016, 07:19:35 PM
It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money. What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)There's been a little bit of research to suggest ratios and population can even affect antler size. It is thought to be pheromone induced. Basically, if you have lots of does and few bucks the animals pick up the scents of all the other deer and for does it kind of makes them less likely to breed first year or less likely to twin. For bucks it registers to them as there are so many does they don't need to fight or travel much, so the antlers grow kind of smaller. In areas with low doe population density or high buck ratio, the doe pheromones would be at a lower level so the when growing antlers the bucks would be operating under more of a thought of "there's not a lot of does, so need a bigger rack to fight to spread those genes".
http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html
Another side of that equation is......... When the doe/buck ratio is way out of whack, those real big breeder bucks don't have to move around near as much to get what they are looking for. That makes them less susceptible to hunters. Bucks that have to cover a lot of territory for does are more likely to be seen by a hunter.
Post by: brew on October 21, 2016, 08:45:14 PM
Post by: HunterofWA on October 22, 2016, 12:04:20 PM
it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00. do i know what they were doing for sure ? no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line". sad... my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well
That bugs me... >:(
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 24, 2016, 02:38:00 PM
it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00. do i know what they were doing for sure ? no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line". sad... my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well
Bucks - especially mature bucks - are far more nocturnal than does. A buddy who was a game biologist in the Black Hills of WY pioneered spotlight surveys for whitetails in the early 90s. Mature buck ratios increased from daylight counts to about 3 hours after sunset, at which time they leveled off as all the mature bucks were finally active. Mature buck counts were far higher than daytime.
Back in 2001, I lived in eastern Lewis County and my wife was in the hospital in Olympia for 10 days. As a result, I drove home through southern Thurston Co and Lewis County, and from I-5 to 40 miles east 10 nights in a row, September 1-10, between the hours of 10pm and 2am. I saw more big blacktail bucks during those 20 hours driving at those hours, just in my headlights and street lights, than I have in the rest of my 15+ years in WA.
Post by: millerwheeler on October 24, 2016, 09:48:14 PM
Not sure about ethics but I can tell you it'll all but break your heart to be trying to gut a doe while its yearling stands by looking totally lost and confused without even the gumption to run away. I cant help but think a bit more time with mom around would help with survivability. Its not like the does ever kick them out like bears. They seem to hang with the same family group for life.
I try hard not to kill does or cows with yearlings. Not that I'd fault a guy for taking a legal animal.
FULLY agree, not to mention as someone else said some of the herds need to gain there numbers again
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 24, 2016, 09:58:41 PM
I remember talking to the newspaper delivery girl and she was telling me all about seeing so many bucks, bears and cats. Being on the roads every night between 2 am and 6 am sounds like a great time for the critters.it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00. do i know what they were doing for sure ? no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line". sad... my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well
Bucks - especially mature bucks - are far more nocturnal than does. A buddy who was a game biologist in the Black Hills of WY pioneered spotlight surveys for whitetails in the early 90s. Mature buck ratios increased from daylight counts to about 3 hours after sunset, at which time they leveled off as all the mature bucks were finally active. Mature buck counts were far higher than daytime.
Back in 2001, I lived in eastern Lewis County and my wife was in the hospital in Olympia for 10 days. As a result, I drove home through southern Thurston Co and Lewis County, and from I-5 to 40 miles east 10 nights in a row, September 1-10, between the hours of 10pm and 2am. I saw more big blacktail bucks during those 20 hours driving at those hours, just in my headlights and street lights, than I have in the rest of my 15+ years in WA.
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on October 24, 2016, 11:27:02 PM
Hunting ranches, who make money off of having the best hunting scenario for their clients, regularly cull does and smaller "management" bucks to improve hunting for trophy bucks. It is in these ranch's best interest to provide a high quality hunt.
The ranch I hunted in Texas 4 years ago culls 100-150 does every year from their 7,000 acre property. They donate the meat to a local food bank. They also allow clients to take a doe for free if the client wants the meat. I took advantage of that on my hunt. If taking does was in any way detrimental to their herd, the culling wouldn't have taken place. But this is common practice on heavily managed deer ranches.
Post by: Goshawk on October 26, 2016, 09:58:33 PM
To me, it's about generating cash by selling doe permits since our deer population in my area is still not up to pre-hair loss numbers. I put in for a doe tag for my areas every year, and get a doe tag about every third; can't say I ever filled one...