Ethical question on hunting does

[JLS]

You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush.

This is a very good point.  We will all view this question through the biases we have from the parts of the state we frequent the most.

[Naches Sportsman]

You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush.

This is a very good point.  We will all view this question through the biases we have from the parts of the state we frequent the most.

I agree with both of these.

Some herds are stronger than others. Out of all the times I've been up to the north central and north east part of the state, I am amazed how many more deer I see compared to Yakima County.

Same thing goes for the area on the way to Pullman. They are almost like rats out there.

Some people may agree that there shouldn't be general seasons in places. Personally, I think deer season should be closed to everyone(including the natives) and special permit only in the 342-368 units. If you look at the harvest rates compared to other units in eastern wa, there is  a big difference.

[TRD1911]

  I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.

  Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
  I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.

Same here. I've drawn back on a couple and then let down. I cant be 100% sure that she doesnt have a fawn even if its not with her at the moment. Many times I've bumped a fawn thats been tucked away while momma goes out for a bit. Just not my thing.

[Yakirack]

You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush.

This is a very good point.  We will all view this question through the biases we have from the parts of the state we frequent the most.

I agree with both of these.

Some herds are stronger than others. Out of all the times I've been up to the north central and north east part of the state, I am amazed how many more deer I see compared to Yakima County.

Same thing goes for the area on the way to Pullman. They are almost like rats out there.

Some people may agree that there shouldn't be general seasons in places. Personally, I think deer season should be closed to everyone(including the natives) and special permit only in the 342-368 units. If you look at the harvest rates compared to other units in eastern wa, there is  a big difference.

Agreed  , in 26 years of hunting I have seen 6 bucks 3pt or better in Yakima County.

[Sumpnneedskillin]

I think there are areas that does need thinned out.  Bow hunting I will gladly stick an arrow in a doe. 

It's not uncommon for us to see 4, 5, or even 6 groups of 5 or more does, yearlings, and fawns several times a week.  Earlier this week we saw over 40 deer in the span of about a mile.  There was one buck, and he was a fork horn.

[krout81]

Late season archery in an any deer unit I shoot the first one that stands still long enough.  I pray for a yearling to hold still.  They taste way better😀

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[brew]

  I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.

  Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
  I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.

what is your view on a good buck to doe ratio and what time of the year would you make that determination ?  i was up in the vail unit just after it opened in August and in a 4 hour time frame from basically 8 till noon i saw 65 deer....two of which were bucks (both 2 pts).  in my Yelm High School math that is a ratio of 32:1.  I am no biologist but that seems a liitle out of balance to me.  I had my 60x spotting scope on those over 200 yards away and saw no spikes.  Ive hunted that area a lot in the last 30 years because i lived out there.  10 years ago i had a buddy who worked for weyco and had keys to the gates.  we literally hunted that area from september to the end of december because we archery hunted.  the only times the gates were open was on the weekends of modern firearm and two days during the late season in November--that was about 10 days.  there were times in late november when we saw literally 100 deer a day--of which maybe 2 were bucks.  there is no way i can believe that was a healthy deer population and i can't believe that during modern season that a huge population of bucks were taken.  i don't know the answer on how to raise the buck to doe ratio but i can tell you first hand there is an over abundance of does in that area.  yes i understand that killing does will decrease the amount of male deer that are bred into the gene pool but the amount of female deer in an area will decrease the habitat able to withstand male deer.  just my 

 Glad to hear you actually have a deer population.
 I wouldn't complain about seeing 65 deer in 4hrs, I drove through one of the local Weyco units a week before the rifle opener, was the only vehicle in the unit and saw 6 deer 2 were spikes. So should we be killing Does in this unit?

i'm not complaining about seeing 65 deer in 4 hours...what i'm saying is the balance of does:bucks is off and there is no reason why someone shouldn't kill a doe in this area if they had the opportunity...just saying that if the area you are hunting  you only saw 6 deer and 2 of which were spikes you may want to reconsider hunting in a different area.  different areas should have different bag limits/genders depending upon the area..by saying that someone shouldn't harvest a doe state wide based on the areas that you are hunting is wrong

[WAcoueshunter]

I bet you'd see a much different buck to doe ratio in Vail if you went next week instead of August. 

[Sitka_Blacktail]

It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money.  What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)

http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html

There's been a little bit of research to suggest ratios and population can even affect antler size.  It is thought to be pheromone induced.  Basically, if you have lots of does and few bucks the animals pick up the scents of all the other deer and for does it kind of makes them less likely to breed first year or less likely to twin.  For bucks it registers to them as there are so many does they don't need to fight or travel much, so the antlers grow kind of smaller.  In areas with low doe population density or high buck ratio, the doe pheromones would be at a lower level so the when growing antlers the bucks would be operating under more of a thought of "there's not a lot of does, so need a bigger rack to fight to spread those genes".

Another side of that equation is......... When the doe/buck ratio is way out of whack, those real big breeder bucks don't have to move around near as much to get what they are looking for.  That makes them less susceptible to hunters. Bucks that have to cover a lot of territory for does are more likely to be seen by a hunter.

[brew]

it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00.  do i know what they were doing for sure ?  no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line".  sad...  my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well

[HunterofWA]

it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00.  do i know what they were doing for sure ?  no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line".  sad...  my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well

That bugs me...

[DOUBLELUNG]

it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00.  do i know what they were doing for sure ?  no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line".  sad...  my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well

Bucks - especially mature bucks - are far more nocturnal than does.  A buddy who was a game biologist in the Black Hills of WY pioneered spotlight surveys for whitetails in the early 90s.  Mature buck ratios increased from daylight counts to about 3 hours after sunset, at which time they leveled off as all the mature bucks were finally active.  Mature buck counts were far higher than daytime.

Back in 2001, I lived in eastern Lewis County and my wife was in the hospital in Olympia for 10 days.  As a result, I drove home through southern Thurston Co and Lewis County, and from I-5 to 40 miles east 10 nights in a row, September 1-10, between the hours of 10pm and 2am.  I saw more big blacktail bucks during those 20 hours driving at those hours, just in my headlights and street lights, than I have in the rest of my 15+ years in WA.

[millerwheeler]

Not sure about ethics but I can tell you it'll all but break your heart to be trying to gut a doe while its yearling stands by looking totally lost and confused without even the gumption to run away. I cant help but think a bit more time with mom around would help with survivability. Its not like the does ever kick them out like bears. They seem to hang with the same family group for life.

I try hard not to kill does or cows with yearlings. Not that I'd fault a guy for taking a legal animal.

FULLY agree, not to mention as someone else said some of the herds need to gain there numbers again

[JimmyHoffa]

it became pretty evident why the buck to doe ratio is so uneven in the area i hunt a couple hours ago...a huge rainstorm hit the area about 5 pm and it was about as dark as it can get so i started heading towards the gate..don't know when "legal light" was but i saw 7 different trucks heading up into the bush starting at around 5:45 until i hit the gate at 6:00.  do i know what they were doing for sure ?  no but there is no reason for them to be heading up into the woods at that time when you cant' see anything past your headlights...and this was on the "main line".  sad...  my bet is that there is much more poaching going on than any of us realize not only on private timber company lands but also on public national forest lands as well

Bucks - especially mature bucks - are far more nocturnal than does.  A buddy who was a game biologist in the Black Hills of WY pioneered spotlight surveys for whitetails in the early 90s.  Mature buck ratios increased from daylight counts to about 3 hours after sunset, at which time they leveled off as all the mature bucks were finally active.  Mature buck counts were far higher than daytime.

Back in 2001, I lived in eastern Lewis County and my wife was in the hospital in Olympia for 10 days.  As a result, I drove home through southern Thurston Co and Lewis County, and from I-5 to 40 miles east 10 nights in a row, September 1-10, between the hours of 10pm and 2am.  I saw more big blacktail bucks during those 20 hours driving at those hours, just in my headlights and street lights, than I have in the rest of my 15+ years in WA.

I remember talking to the newspaper delivery girl and she was telling me all about seeing so many bucks, bears and cats.  Being on the roads every night between 2 am and 6 am sounds like a great time for the critters.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Another thing to think about.......

Hunting ranches, who make money off of having the best hunting scenario for their clients, regularly cull does and smaller "management" bucks to improve hunting for trophy bucks. It is in these ranch's best interest to provide a high quality hunt.

The ranch I hunted in Texas 4 years ago culls 100-150 does every year from their 7,000 acre property. They donate the meat to a local food bank. They also allow clients to take a doe for free if the client wants the meat. I took advantage of that on my hunt. If taking does was in any way detrimental to their herd, the culling wouldn't have taken place.  But this is common practice on heavily managed deer ranches.