Ethical question on hunting does

[andrew_in_idaho]

Thanks. Don't know why it didn't wanna finish link the last couple words there


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[Cultusman]

  I've never killed a Doe and never will because your killing the Doe,the Fawn she might have this spring,the fawn that fawn might have, it's never ending.

  Why our biologist think we have so many deer that we need to kill Does I will never know.
  I know there are some Whitetail herds that could use some thinning but I'm talking about Blacktails. If your old enough to know how many Blacktails there was 40 years ago you would understand what I'm talking about.

what is your view on a good buck to doe ratio and what time of the year would you make that determination ?  i was up in the vail unit just after it opened in August and in a 4 hour time frame from basically 8 till noon i saw 65 deer....two of which were bucks (both 2 pts).  in my Yelm High School math that is a ratio of 32:1.  I am no biologist but that seems a liitle out of balance to me.  I had my 60x spotting scope on those over 200 yards away and saw no spikes.  Ive hunted that area a lot in the last 30 years because i lived out there.  10 years ago i had a buddy who worked for weyco and had keys to the gates.  we literally hunted that area from september to the end of december because we archery hunted.  the only times the gates were open was on the weekends of modern firearm and two days during the late season in November--that was about 10 days.  there were times in late november when we saw literally 100 deer a day--of which maybe 2 were bucks.  there is no way i can believe that was a healthy deer population and i can't believe that during modern season that a huge population of bucks were taken.  i don't know the answer on how to raise the buck to doe ratio but i can tell you first hand there is an over abundance of does in that area.  yes i understand that killing does will decrease the amount of male deer that are bred into the gene pool but the amount of female deer in an area will decrease the habitat able to withstand male deer.  just my 

 Glad to hear you actually have a deer population.
 I wouldn't complain about seeing 65 deer in 4hrs, I drove through one of the local Weyco units a week before the rifle opener, was the only vehicle in the unit and saw 6 deer 2 were spikes. So should we be killing Does in this unit?

[HunterofWA]

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.

Sounds as if you are a anti-doe shooter... if you don't like it than big deal, no one should mock you for it, and you shouldn't criticize other's choices on wither or not they should shoot a doe. It takes away the enjoyment of hunting if all we do is bash each other up when all they did is take a doe? as long as it's legal, then I'm fine with it. I personally think that taking a mature doe out of the herd will make a little dent, but that won't last long. If I don't get a buck from now on I will most likely shoot a bigger fawn just cause it's easier to pack out, got some good tender meat, and I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year, thus making no harmful impact of the herd. I think if you don't agree with shooting does that who cares? doesn't bother us 

[Bango skank]

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.

 I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year,

I dont know about blacktails, but a percentage of whitetail doe fawns breed their first winter.  Not uncommon at all.  In fact its the bigger fawns, like youre talking about, that do get bred their first year.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money.  What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)

http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.

 I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year,

I dont know about blacktails, but a percentage of whitetail doe fawns breed their first winter.  Not uncommon at all.  In fact its the bigger fawns, like youre talking about, that do get bred their first year.

They breed their first year, but who knows if it's good for them? Sitka Blacktails definitely breed their first year. In fact I suspect that a good portion of the "second rut" in Alaska is centered around first year does. It's not uncommon at all to find big bucks alone with doe fawns late in the year after the first/main rut.

[crowinghen]

I have not spent much time hunting doe deer before.  This time of year, many does are still with their yearlings.  I would assume that the yearlings are old enough to survive without their mothers, but I am hesitant to pull the trigger on a doe with a yearling nearby.

What are the ethics behind this one?

Having the doe around will not have a significant affect on the likelihood of survival for the fawn.  However, if you can, shoot a doe without a fawn.  She is barren for a reason, either age, low fertility (this is a hereditary trait), bad teeth, etc.  By removing her, you are reducing competition for cover, food, bucks that are better spent on the does that have fawns.

We just had this conversation the other day. We have had a doe with twins on our trail cam, and now we see her in the clear cuts with her twins... would we  shoot her if she  comes around during archery season? She's a good mama, obviously it's good for the  deer population to let her walk... we decided we'd wait and see if the time comes.

[Bango skank]

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right. It's legal to shoot a momma bear and orphan her cubs. Is it something I will do? Not a chance. If I thought the fawn may not make it I wouldn't shoot.

 I'm almost 100% sure that the fawn wouldn't have been bred that year,

I dont know about blacktails, but a percentage of whitetail doe fawns breed their first winter.  Not uncommon at all.  In fact its the bigger fawns, like youre talking about, that do get bred their first year.

They breed their first year, but who knows if it's good for them? Sitka Blacktails definitely breed their first year. In fact I suspect that a good portion of the "second rut" in Alaska is centered around first year does. It's not uncommon at all to find big bucks alone with doe fawns late in the year after the first/main rut.

Biggest whitetail buck ive ever seen was with a doe fawn in december.  Looked all over for his sheds, covered the mountain in cameras, he just appeared out of thin air and disappeared right back into it.

[csaaphill]

Guess your the one who has to answer that.

[dvolmer]

I choose not to, one because that means she is fertile and could have a baby again next year.  Coupled with my disagreement with current deer management practices. I don't believe an antlerless hunt should be going on right now with the current herd status for most locales.   I don't think money and oppurtunity to appease the population should be the reason for an antlerless hunt.

I agree with this somewhat.  There are areas that need to be thinned because of overpopulation but they are few if you ask me.  The places that I hunt in Eastern Washington could hold and support a lot more animals.  Leave all doe permits to the youth, disabled, and senior citizens.  Just my two cents and they aren't worth much!  On another note, if you are shooting a doe it is wise to shoot one without a fawn just due to it being dry and tasting better.  Its just feeding itself and not eating and feeding for two.

[WAcoueshunter]

Here's my on the ethics question.

We know does are still lactating and fawns are still nursing to some extent well into the hunting season (at least archery).  If I suddenly take away a food source, maybe it survives, maybe it doesn't.  If it doesn't, I fail at two of the primary hunter ethics - quick clean kills and don't waste any meat.  Easy enough to go find another doe without a fawn.

I don't get the mindset that "if it's legal, you're good to go".  There are lots of legal things that are strongly frowned up in the hunting world.  Two stated above, sows with cubs, turkeys on the roost, etc.  It's not illegal to tell your grandma to f off on her death bed either.  Doesn't mean you should do it. 

[JimmyHoffa]

It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money.  What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)

http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html

There's been a little bit of research to suggest ratios and population can even affect antler size.  It is thought to be pheromone induced.  Basically, if you have lots of does and few bucks the animals pick up the scents of all the other deer and for does it kind of makes them less likely to breed first year or less likely to twin.  For bucks it registers to them as there are so many does they don't need to fight or travel much, so the antlers grow kind of smaller.  In areas with low doe population density or high buck ratio, the doe pheromones would be at a lower level so the when growing antlers the bucks would be operating under more of a thought of "there's not a lot of does, so need a bigger rack to fight to spread those genes".

[Bango skank]

It's been proven over and over that you can''t "bank" game animals like you bank money.  What happens if you save all does/cows and hunt only bucks/bulls is, eventually you end up with a herd of mostly does. The habitat can only handle so many animals and if you are stockpiling does, that is that many less bucks you will have. Then you get the guys who think you shouldn't shoot does or small bucks. (spikes, small forkies)

http://www.toledoblade.com/StevePollick/2004/10/03/Hunting-of-antlerless-deer-helps-Ohio-manage-its-herd-statewide.html

There's been a little bit of research to suggest ratios and population can even affect antler size.  It is thought to be pheromone induced.  Basically, if you have lots of does and few bucks the animals pick up the scents of all the other deer and for does it kind of makes them less likely to breed first year or less likely to twin.  For bucks it registers to them as there are so many does they don't need to fight or travel much, so the antlers grow kind of smaller.  In areas with low doe population density or high buck ratio, the doe pheromones would be at a lower level so the when growing antlers the bucks would be operating under more of a thought of "there's not a lot of does, so need a bigger rack to fight to spread those genes".

Seems a bit far fetched to me.  I think its more of a deal where a higher buck to doe ratio is indicative of a more healthy age structure.  The two go hand in hand.  More mature bucks = more large racked bucks and more rutting behavior like rubs and scrapes.  Also more breeding competition, so less does going into a late second estrous, having late born fawns etc.

[BULLBLASTER]

I choose not to, one because that means she is fertile and could have a baby again next year.  Coupled with my disagreement with current deer management practices. I don't believe an antlerless hunt should be going on right now with the current herd status for most locales.   I don't think money and oppurtunity to appease the population should be the reason for an antlerless hunt.

I agree with this somewhat.  There are areas that need to be thinned because of overpopulation but they are few if you ask me.  The places that I hunt in Eastern Washington could hold and support a lot more animals.  Leave all doe permits to the youth, disabled, and senior citizens.  Just my two cents and they aren't worth much!  On another note, if you are shooting a doe it is wise to shoot one without a fawn just due to it being dry and tasting better.  Its just feeding itself and not eating and feeding for two.

You can't really paint the entire state with the same brush. Take a couple private properties I hunt for example. One is 280 acres and the week before rifle deer season I could sit there and count 20+ deer in one section of field, and that is only looking at 1/3 or 1/2 of the farm. I find it hard to believe that the immediate area could handle too many more deer. Another area is a semi urban area that I archery hunt. I can sit in my blind and see 12-14 deer at once certain times of the day and year, I live in this area and see the damage the deer do to the yards and farms right around me as well as see them struggle in winter. I think some doe harvest is acceptable and needed in these types of areas. I also realize that lots of mule deer and black tail populations aren't in the same boat but I don't have first hand experience with them.

[seth30]

I choose not to, one because that means she is fertile and could have a baby again next year.  Coupled with my disagreement with current deer management practices. I don't believe an antlerless hunt should be going on right now with the current herd status for most locales.   I don't think money and oppurtunity to appease the population should be the reason for an antlerless hunt.

do you mean the GMU's near you?  Here in my GMU we are overrun by deer, I take does every year...  I think they taste better.