Post by: teanawayslayer on September 16, 2017, 11:17:37 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 17, 2017, 03:24:58 AM
Don't know if that is the case here, I'm trying to think of parcels where a helicopter could land which would make a good location. Seem like there could be something over by Red Mountain between the Chiwawa and Phelps Creek and another site near Glacier Peak Mines.
Have you spoken with the USFS?
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on September 17, 2017, 05:19:45 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 17, 2017, 05:32:05 AM
Just remember guys helps don't have to land to off load cargo, and people. :twocents:
Those actions are still prohibited in Wilderness areas
http://www.wilderness.net/nwps/documents/fs/fs_wilderness_regulations.pdf
http://tfmlearning.fly.faa.gov/Publications/atpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0704.html (See 7-4-6)
Post by: Naches Sportsman on September 17, 2017, 06:40:56 AM
Post by: JM on September 17, 2017, 06:55:29 AM
Post by: haugenna on September 17, 2017, 06:58:39 AM
Edit: not my own personal air show. There were 25 others in the same drainage watching it as well. Busy high hunt for sure. Can't wait for mid week openers to come back. Saw way too many cat tracks.
Post by: teanawayslayer on September 17, 2017, 01:13:22 PM
Interesting. Twenty years ago Hi Line flew a bunch of Boy Scouts into patented land up the Stehekin near Booker Mountain inside NCNP. Everything was legal because of the private ownership of the land and the close relationship between the park and Hi Line was not affected.maybe that's what was going on. I will call usfs on Monday
Don't know if that is the case here, I'm trying to think of parcels where a helicopter could land which would make a good location. Seem like there could be something over by Red Mountain between the Chiwawa and Phelps Creek and another site near Glacier Peak Mines.
Have you spoken with the USFS?
Post by: seth30 on September 17, 2017, 01:46:41 PM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 17, 2017, 06:37:18 PM
Interesting. Twenty years ago Hi Line flew a bunch of Boy Scouts into patented land up the Stehekin near Booker Mountain inside NCNP. Everything was legal because of the private ownership of the land and the close relationship between the park and Hi Line was not affected.maybe that's what was going on. I will call usfs on Monday
Don't know if that is the case here, I'm trying to think of parcels where a helicopter could land which would make a good location. Seem like there could be something over by Red Mountain between the Chiwawa and Phelps Creek and another site near Glacier Peak Mines.
Have you spoken with the USFS?
I don't even think they can land on USFS land outside the Wilderness without an use permit, that's probably why they were flying out of Trinity.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 17, 2017, 06:38:01 PM
Isn't there private land locked away up there? As in old mining claims? I remember seeing private land on the map last year.
Tons
Post by: h2ofowlr on September 17, 2017, 07:11:35 PM
Post by: teanawayslayer on September 17, 2017, 07:19:35 PM
Any lakes in the area? Maybe they were pulling water for a fire.no buckets
Post by: grade-creek-rd on September 18, 2017, 08:43:24 AM
And our High Hunt spot was crazy with people this I as I am assuming it was from the fires taking away several other places to enter the normal haunts of the other hunters. We still saw some nice bucks and a bear...a great weekend, but dry, hot, and popular.
Grade
Post by: Timberstalker on September 18, 2017, 08:48:52 AM
There is no 24 hour rule in Washington...that's in Alaska...I know guys who used to use Cascade Helicopters out of Cashmere to fly into various places but I think there is no longer a Cascade Helicopter outfit. Anyway, I view it as no different than hiring a packer to take you in via horseback...
And our High Hunt spot was crazy with people this I as I am assuming it was from the fires taking away several other places to enter the normal haunts of the other hunters. We still saw some nice bucks and a bear...a great weekend, but dry, hot, and popular.
Grade
It is absolutely illegal to hunt the same day you've flown, in Washington - pursuant to the WAC below.
4. Using aircraft (WAC 220-413-070):
It is illegal to:
• Use an aircraft to spot, locate, or report
the location of wildlife for the purpose
of hunting.
• Hunt big game on the same day you
were airborne for any purpose, except
for a regularly scheduled commercial
flight.
Post by: Ridgerunner on September 18, 2017, 08:52:21 AM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on September 18, 2017, 08:53:44 AM
Grade
Post by: Timberstalker on September 18, 2017, 08:54:45 AM
Post by: Timberstalker on September 18, 2017, 08:56:33 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 18, 2017, 12:37:46 PM
As for the regularly scheduled commercial flight - I'm not sure a helicopter into GPW fits the bill, but as you've indicated, it's up for interpretation. :tup:
You are fully correct
Post by: boneaddict on September 18, 2017, 12:41:03 PM
Post by: Timberstalker on September 18, 2017, 12:42:34 PM
Id be more interested in getting a flight out of some of the hell holes I hike into and kill a deer. to heck with the flight in, my pack is 100 lbs lighter going in. :chuckle: :dunno:
Amen.
Post by: JLS on September 18, 2017, 02:08:14 PM
As for the regularly scheduled commercial flight - I'm not sure a helicopter into GPW fits the bill, but as you've indicated, it's up for interpretation. :tup:
You are fully correct
If it was to a designated airstrip, such as the airstrips in the Frank Church, it would probably pass muster as a scheduled commercial flight. I doubt landing in the bush would qualify.
Post by: boneaddict on September 18, 2017, 02:10:51 PM
But leave it to WACky Washington to leave an interpretation issue
Post by: pianoman9701 on September 18, 2017, 02:15:21 PM
Post by: R2Rcoulee on September 18, 2017, 03:01:12 PM
Id be more interested in getting a flight out of some of the hell holes I hike into and kill a deer. to heck with the flight in, my pack is 100 lbs lighter going in. :chuckle: :dunno:
That would be nice. But a helicopter company cannot fly wild game out of the USFS land, unless it's a commercial airstrip. Also from my understanding of the wilderness land act helicopters cannot fly into wilderness areas. The only exception I've heard of is a the helicopter company gets a waiver/amendment from the USFS for fire fighting, personal injury, or sometimes construction.
Post by: Pegasus on September 18, 2017, 03:11:54 PM
Post by: grade-creek-rd on September 19, 2017, 08:38:33 AM
Grade
Post by: baker5150 on September 19, 2017, 09:03:14 AM
Id be more interested in getting a flight out of some of the hell holes I hike into and kill a deer. to heck with the flight in, my pack is 100 lbs lighter going in. :chuckle: :dunno:
That would be nice. But a helicopter company cannot fly wild game out of the USFS land, unless it's a commercial airstrip. Also from my understanding of the wilderness land act helicopters cannot fly into wilderness areas. The only exception I've heard of is a the helicopter company gets a waiver/amendment from the USFS for fire fighting, personal injury, or sometimes construction.
https://heli-ski.com/
:dunno:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 19, 2017, 11:18:43 AM
Id be more interested in getting a flight out of some of the hell holes I hike into and kill a deer. to heck with the flight in, my pack is 100 lbs lighter going in. :chuckle: :dunno:
That would be nice. But a helicopter company cannot fly wild game out of the USFS land, unless it's a commercial airstrip. Also from my understanding of the wilderness land act helicopters cannot fly into wilderness areas. The only exception I've heard of is a the helicopter company gets a waiver/amendment from the USFS for fire fighting, personal injury, or sometimes construction.
https://heli-ski.com/
:dunno:
They are limited by their use permits to landing only at specific sites during a specific time frame. They can't operate willy-nilly.
Post by: JDHasty on September 19, 2017, 11:22:40 AM
There is no 24 hour rule in Washington...that's in Alaska...I know guys who used to use Cascade Helicopters out of Cashmere to fly into various places but I think there is no longer a Cascade Helicopter outfit. Anyway, I view it as no different than hiring a packer to take you in via horseback...
And our High Hunt spot was crazy with people this I as I am assuming it was from the fires taking away several other places to enter the normal haunts of the other hunters. We still saw some nice bucks and a bear...a great weekend, but dry, hot, and popular.
Grade
It is absolutely illegal to hunt the same day you've flown, in Washington - pursuant to the WAC below.
4. Using aircraft (WAC 220-413-070):
It is illegal to:
• Use an aircraft to spot, locate, or report
the location of wildlife for the purpose
of hunting.
• Hunt big game on the same day you
were airborne for any purpose, except
for a regularly scheduled commercial
flight.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/oct/24/landers-tougher-law-trespassing-hunters/ (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/oct/24/landers-tougher-law-trespassing-hunters/)
Post by: baker5150 on September 19, 2017, 11:37:40 AM
Id be more interested in getting a flight out of some of the hell holes I hike into and kill a deer. to heck with the flight in, my pack is 100 lbs lighter going in. :chuckle: :dunno:
That would be nice. But a helicopter company cannot fly wild game out of the USFS land, unless it's a commercial airstrip. Also from my understanding of the wilderness land act helicopters cannot fly into wilderness areas. The only exception I've heard of is a the helicopter company gets a waiver/amendment from the USFS for fire fighting, personal injury, or sometimes construction.
https://heli-ski.com/
:dunno:
They are limited by their use permits to landing only at specific sites during a specific time frame. They can't operate willy-nilly.
Regardless, they are still allowed to access with a helicopter. I'm not sure where guys are getting their info about no access being allowed.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 19, 2017, 11:43:30 AM
Regardless, they are still allowed to access with a helicopter. I'm not sure where guys are getting their info about no access being allowed.
Those comments were made in relation to the fact that helicopters and planes, including airdrops, are not allowed in wilderness areas. There are exceptions, Lake Isabel in Washington and various airstrips in Idaho and Montana that existed prior to the creation of those wilderness areas. Then even outside designated wilderness, but inside USFS lands, helicopter use is limited to those with a use permit, and often limited to specific landing sites.
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 19, 2017, 11:50:15 AM
Helo sightings were caused by a big name outdoor sports channel star ferrying in his camp, gear and film crew for a hunting show.
It would be nice to know where he landed. I'm wondering if on the Chiwawa-Entiat divide, south of the GPW.
No amount of stardom or permits would allow a landing inside the wilderness.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 19, 2017, 12:00:42 PM
Post by: eburgtrapper on September 19, 2017, 12:03:25 PM
Helo sightings were caused by a big name outdoor sports channel star ferrying in his camp, gear and film crew for a hunting show.
It would be nice to know where he landed. I'm wondering if on the Chiwawa-Entiat divide, south of the GPW.
No amount of stardom or permits would allow a landing inside the wilderness.
They were flying up the chiwawa river basin towards red mountain. I saw three different helicopters, two had would looked like water buckets for fire on a 100' or so rope. Not sure the length. The third chopper had a net packing stuff. The were taking off from the mine at trinity.
Post by: R2Rcoulee on September 19, 2017, 12:31:25 PM
R2Rcouleee...not sure where you got your info...but aircraft (including helicopters) fly into the USFS all the time, especially in Alaska, all they need is a special use permit. I know of a fishing guide on Lake Chelan that has a FS Special Use Permit to pick up and drop off people (and wild game when taken by a hunter). The permit is for transportation only so no guiding, but a helicopter would need the same special use permit. Again, Cascade Helicopters used to do this all the time. We hired them back in the early 2000's to help haul gear into Crow Cabin and put a new metal roof on it...and that was in the backcountry.
Grade
I was talking about wilderness areas & helos just can't fly in and drop guys off.. I do federal contracts every year with USFS and a lot of those contracts I have to hire helicopter companies. This year I ask a Idaho helicopter company I do a lot of work with about flying me into the back country. They said they could fly me in on USFS land, but not wilderness. They also said that if I got a deer, than they could not pick me up because they couldn't fly wild game out unless it was a commercial airstrip.
Post by: R2Rcoulee on September 19, 2017, 12:55:54 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.idahostatesman.com/opinion/readers-opinion/article134378629.html
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 19, 2017, 02:54:29 PM
They were flying up the chiwawa river basin towards red mountain. I saw three different helicopters, two had would looked like water buckets for fire on a 100' or so rope. Not sure the length. The third chopper had a net packing stuff. The were taking off from the mine at trinity.
I wonder if indeed they were in fact fire fighting. Another possibility would be flying to private land near Holden, or possibly private land up the Chiwawa. You can see an old road going up hill out of the upper Chiwawa Basin east towards Spider Meadows. I think that serviced a now defunct pattened mine, and once on the ridge one could roam in several directions.
Post by: sooperfly on September 19, 2017, 05:03:13 PM
If so, you could look up the owner and contact them?
Reason I ask is, a few years ago there was a heli with a large apparatus underneath the fuselage flying a crazy pattern really low around Wenatchee. Maybe 200 to 250 feet. He went over our office a few times so I snapped a pic, looked up the N Number and emailed the owner!
He responded promptly and said they had a BLM contract for doing the Columbia Basin watershed mapping study with LIDAR. ( that was the unit under the heli ).
So.... wouldn't hurt to ask maybe? :)
Post by: teanawayslayer on September 19, 2017, 07:05:35 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 19, 2017, 08:03:30 PM
Post by: j_h_nimrod on September 19, 2017, 08:14:35 PM
Hard to say what they were doing, but it is hard to imagine most commercial outfits risking federal prosecution to fly a couple lazy hunters to their camp. There is the possibility of flying to a few bastions of patent land but they would not support enough groups very close to touchdown to make it worthwhile if you are flying in guys willing to pay an absolute minimum of $30 a minute for a flight.
Post by: teanawayslayer on September 19, 2017, 08:14:56 PM
Look like federal rigs or were they just run of the mill private looking rigs?run of the mill private helo's
Post by: couesbitten on September 19, 2017, 09:03:01 PM
Look like federal rigs or were they just run of the mill private looking rigs?run of the mill private helo's
Pretty sure Skyval meant the rigs parked at Trinity.
Post by: R2Rcoulee on September 21, 2017, 04:15:39 PM
I like Alaska's stance on helicopters for hunting, not allowed in any way, shape, or form.:yeah:
Hard to say what they were doing, but it is hard to imagine most commercial outfits risking federal prosecution to fly a couple lazy hunters to their camp. There is the possibility of flying to a few bastions of patent land but they would not support enough groups very close to touchdown to make it worthwhile if you are flying in guys willing to pay an absolute minimum of $30 a minute for a flight.
Right now I'm doing a project in Oregon for the USFS. I met with the helicopter company that's transporting material for us & talked to them about this. He agreed with your statement that it would be crazy for a helicopter company to fly guys into a designated wilderness for hunting. So they had to be going into a private claim. He also confirmed that helicopter companies just can't take wild game out of the USFS unless it's out of an airstrip.
Post by: zwickeyman on September 24, 2017, 12:48:20 PM
And I asked about not actually landing, just hovering and me jumping out with my gear and walking out too. Like Bone said, better to walk in and get picked up to get out. Couldn't get that done either
Post by: bigmacc on September 24, 2017, 07:21:15 PM
Thursday was an interesting day at trinity. Helicopters flying clients in for the high hunt all day. Anyone know who was flying them in? Very interesting. I heard the last flight around 2 pm. We're these clients waiting 24 hours befor hunting? Did they land in the wilderness? I had no service to call the local authorities to check it out. Didn't seem right to me. Did anyone else see this?
I would bet a lot of money(if I was a betting man) that they were not airlifting hunters into an area.... :twocents:
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 24, 2017, 09:54:28 PM
I looked into being Helo'd into a Wilderness that packers no longer go. Not one outfit I tried could get permission from the Forest Service to do it. My case any way
And I asked about not actually landing, just hovering and me jumping out with my gear and walking out too.
Both are illegal. It's not something the USFS can grant. They got in trouble for allowing helicopters to help in the Green Mountain lookout restoration, allowing Chelan county to access their snow depth sites inside the GPW, and allowing government biologists to do their thing in an Idaho wilderness.
A helicopter company has about as much chance of getting a permit for a purely commercial/recreational landing as I do of french kissing Melania
Post by: Jason on September 25, 2017, 05:51:58 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on September 25, 2017, 05:53:29 AM
Post by: Knocker of rocks on September 25, 2017, 08:09:37 AM
Only because the Tree Hugging groups challenged the Green Mountain lookout restoration.
Group, not groups.
Wilderness Watch was all alone in this.
But none of that changes the fact that there is no way a permit for landing would be issued for commercial recreational use.