Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2017, 02:22:38 PM
There are those that couldn't care less what the herds look like, their only concern is being able to purchase a tag every single year and hunting. Then there are those that see the clear picture and understand the only way things are going to improve are with restrictions and pred control.
The poll is set up so you may change your vote later.
What say you?
Post by: vandeman17 on October 10, 2017, 02:26:55 PM
Post by: Stein on October 10, 2017, 02:28:54 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on October 10, 2017, 02:35:33 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 10, 2017, 02:37:08 PM
Post by: superdown on October 10, 2017, 02:42:06 PM
Post by: swanny on October 10, 2017, 02:55:11 PM
I'm not opposed to a every other year situation across species. In my idea you could hunt mule deer one year and elk the next, eliminating the need (I'd hope) for having to choose what side of the state you hunt for elk.
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2017, 02:58:43 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 10, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
I'm not sure what the herd "used" to be necessarily. I can say that after just coming back from Montana, they have some HUGE mule deer over there.
I'm not opposed to a every other year situation across species. In my idea you could hunt mule deer one year and elk the next, eliminating the need (I'd hope) for having to choose what side of the state you hunt for elk.
Remember this discussion? ;)
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,86231.msg1080089.html#msg1080089
Post by: boneaddict on October 10, 2017, 04:06:24 PM
Post by: runamuk on October 10, 2017, 04:10:55 PM
Post by: Special T on October 10, 2017, 04:14:35 PM
I'm pretty sure if you make it draw only for mule deer the wolves and cats will eat what ever number you think your going to save.
A bandaid on a pumping artery isn't going to change much.
Post by: 180-GRAIN on October 10, 2017, 04:21:53 PM
Post by: hunter399 on October 10, 2017, 04:44:10 PM
Post by: jnordwell on October 10, 2017, 05:00:03 PM
Side note like the gill netting in the Columbia. That was gonna stop but yet they still do it. The sport guys need to change but not the gill net crew.. (non Indian)
Post by: jackelope on October 10, 2017, 05:24:56 PM
I haven't voted because I don't think it matters.
I'm pretty sure if you make it draw only for mule deer the wolves and cats will eat what ever number you think your going to save.
A bandaid on a pumping artery isn't going to change much.
I'd hazard a guess without doing any research that there are crap tons more wolves and cats in most other western states that have a lot more controlled mule deer hunting and it's better quality mule deer hunting in pretty much every other western state in the nation than it is here with wide open harvest.
Post by: bearpaw on October 10, 2017, 05:47:25 PM
Post by: BoomWhop on October 10, 2017, 05:48:34 PM
Post by: crabcreekhunter on October 10, 2017, 05:51:15 PM
Post by: jackelope on October 10, 2017, 05:57:49 PM
First, I want to say that winters are in most cases probably the biggest factor in deer numbers. Next, with roughly 4000 cougar that average eating 25-50 deer per year, it seems that some 100,000 or more deer are destined to....
So as someone who is in the know on the cougar front, how would you say the WA lion population compares to other states like ID and MT where there is clearly better quality mule deer hunting?
Post by: floatinghat on October 10, 2017, 06:02:16 PM
I voted yes for Mule deer and take a whitetail.
Post by: Turner89 on October 10, 2017, 06:04:43 PM
Yes, something needs to change. Shorten archery to a week, muzzleloader to four days, modern to 3 days. Drop permit hunts in migratory units in central WA. Able to use deer/elk/bear tag on cougars, bounty on coyotes. Anything to limit harvest from us hunters but allow opportunity and control the predators we can at this point.I don't really have any knowledge on this topic, but this seems reasonable. :dunno: I like the "choose your side" of the state also.
Post by: Special T on October 10, 2017, 06:06:17 PM
I D & M T have much lower population densities that can support more animals. So I'd say that's not really a good comparison
I haven't voted because I don't think it matters.
I'm pretty sure if you make it draw only for mule deer the wolves and cats will eat what ever number you think your going to save.
A bandaid on a pumping artery isn't going to change much.
I'd hazard a guess without doing any research that there are crap tons more wolves and cats in most other western states that have a lot more controlled mule deer hunting and it's better quality mule deer hunting in pretty much every other western state in the nation than it is here with wide open harvest.
Post by: jackelope on October 10, 2017, 06:10:17 PM
There is no 1 answer.
Post by: bearpaw on October 10, 2017, 06:12:26 PM
I personally think there's a lot that's got to change. The amount of hunters, predator management, all sorts of things.
There is no 1 answer.
:yeah: probably the best answer
Post by: Humptulips on October 10, 2017, 06:18:24 PM
I haven't voted because I don't think it matters.
I'm pretty sure if you make it draw only for mule deer the wolves and cats will eat what ever number you think your going to save.
A bandaid on a pumping artery isn't going to change much.
I'd hazard a guess without doing any research that there are crap tons more wolves and cats in most other western states that have a lot more controlled mule deer hunting and it's better quality mule deer hunting in pretty much every other western state in the nation than it is here with wide open harvest.
There is the phrase that brings out the need for clarification what this thread is about.
I see "herd" mentioned and then guys start talking about point restrictions.
I do not believe that does are not getting bred because of a lack of bucks.
So, are you worried about the herd or are you worried you won't get your chance at a monster buck.
There are a lot of people that are quite happy to get out hunting and success to them is some venison in the freezer even if it is a spike or in the current situation a three point. You are not going to get any support from these people to restrict you to every other year hunting. Sounds like ant-hunting rhetoric to me.
If you are really talking about the herd, a lack of deer as opposed to big bucks then the problem is probably predators.
I would dispute that we have less big cats then other western States. I think we have just as many or more plus we can't trap coyotes. Do something about that and you will have my full support. No doe tags :tup:
Tell me I can't go hunting because we have too many predators and Joe Trophy Buck wants a better shot at B&C and you will not get my support.
Post by: Naches Sportsman on October 10, 2017, 06:30:12 PM
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags for every gmu/area and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Post by: jackelope on October 10, 2017, 06:51:29 PM
I haven't voted because I don't think it matters.
I'm pretty sure if you make it draw only for mule deer the wolves and cats will eat what ever number you think your going to save.
A bandaid on a pumping artery isn't going to change much.
I'd hazard a guess without doing any research that there are crap tons more wolves and cats in most other western states that have a lot more controlled mule deer hunting and it's better quality mule deer hunting in pretty much every other western state in the nation than it is here with wide open harvest.
There is the phrase that brings out the need for clarification what this thread is about.
I see "herd" mentioned and then guys start talking about point restrictions.
I do not believe that does are not getting bred because of a lack of bucks.
So, are you worried about the herd or are you worried you won't get your chance at a monster buck.
There are a lot of people that are quite happy to get out hunting and success to them is some venison in the freezer even if it is a spike or in the current situation a three point. You are not going to get any support from these people to restrict you to every other year hunting. Sounds like ant-hunting rhetoric to me.
If you are really talking about the herd, a lack of deer as opposed to big bucks then the problem is probably predators.
I would dispute that we have less big cats then other western States. I think we have just as many or more plus we can't trap coyotes. Do something about that and you will have my full support. No doe tags :tup:
Tell me I can't go hunting because we have too many predators and Joe Trophy Buck wants a better shot at B&C and you will not get my support.
I personally think it's a little bit of everything. I can tell you that when I was hunting farm country in SE WA, I could have shot dozens of deer if I wanted to. I shot one every year for 7-8 years then I stopped shooting "legal" bucks and decided I wanted to concentrate on only shooting mature/big bucks. I've killed enough deer and I don't "need" to shoot a deer to feed my family(Let's be honest, it's cheaper per pound to go to Safeway). I understand not everyone feels this way and I'm totally fine with that. I will say that as soon as I quit hunting farm country and got out into the mountains and into public land, my opportunities to shoot deer dwindled severely. Even shot opportunities at just a "legal" buck dropped. So I guess I'm more interested in better opportunities and more success on all fronts for everyone and at the same time, I'd like to see our herds have an opportunity to rebuild after bad winters, bad fire seasons, mismanagement, predators, habitat loss, hair loss, blue tongue, you name it....the list goes on.
Post by: Humptulips on October 10, 2017, 06:55:30 PM
Even though this my last year hunting in WA, I voted yes. Yes because of the state of the herds here. Cats, wolves, bad winters, and disease has continued to bring down the numbers here. I seen quite a few dead yearlings this spring and have found a dozen or so cat kills. I've been seeing less than a dozen deer per day this past week.
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Be happy with what you have. Here where I live on the W side I would think I was in heaven seeing that many deer. Been out two days this week. Saw three deer one of which was a cougar kill.
So if there were no doe seasons how would shortening the season or limiting hunter participation increase the deer herd? That is what I don't get about these type threads.
Post by: jackelope on October 10, 2017, 06:56:42 PM
Even though this my last year hunting in WA, I voted yes. Yes because of the state of the herds here. Cats, wolves, bad winters, and disease has continued to bring down the numbers here. I seen quite a few dead yearlings this spring and have found a dozen or so cat kills. I've been seeing less than a dozen deer per day this past week.
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Be happy with what you have. Here where I live on the W side I would think I was in heaven seeing that many deer. Been out two days this week. Saw three deer one of which was a cougar kill.
So if there were no doe seasons how would shortening the season or limiting hunter participation increase the deer herd? That is what I don't get about these type threads.
This thread specifically is about mule deer herds on the eastside.
:dunno:
Post by: jackelope on October 10, 2017, 06:59:36 PM
That makes for a lot of unsuccessful hunters year after year. If you had half the # of hunters hunting deer on the eastside, I'd feel pretty confident thinking that more people would be successful. Take that guy that's been hunting for 5 years and hasn't shot a deer yet. Give him better odds at killing a deer every other year rather than not killing one in 5 years because there are more deer and less hunters and I bet he'd be somewhat interested at least.
Post by: wsmnut on October 10, 2017, 07:01:43 PM
Continuing to do nothing is a sure path to failure of the herd. If in fact it can be saved at all.
Post by: Humptulips on October 10, 2017, 07:02:04 PM
Even though this my last year hunting in WA, I voted yes. Yes because of the state of the herds here. Cats, wolves, bad winters, and disease has continued to bring down the numbers here. I seen quite a few dead yearlings this spring and have found a dozen or so cat kills. I've been seeing less than a dozen deer per day this past week.
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Be happy with what you have. Here where I live on the W side I would think I was in heaven seeing that many deer. Been out two days this week. Saw three deer one of which was a cougar kill.
So if there were no doe seasons how would shortening the season or limiting hunter participation increase the deer herd? That is what I don't get about these type threads.
This thread specifically is about mule deer herds on the eastside.
:dunno:
Yes it is so what's your point?
My point, it could be worse and the question applies to Mule Deer.
Post by: Humptulips on October 10, 2017, 07:05:10 PM
10% of the hunters kill 90% of the deer, right?
That makes for a lot of unsuccessful hunters year after year. If you had half the # of hunters hunting deer on the eastside, I'd feel pretty confident thinking that more people would be successful. Take that guy that's been hunting for 5 years and hasn't shot a deer yet. Give him better odds at killing a deer every other year rather than not killing one in 5 years because there are more deer and less hunters and I bet he'd be somewhat interested at least.
So if there were no doe seasons how would shortening the season or limiting hunter participation increase the deer herd? That is what I don't get about these type threads.
Post by: wolfbait on October 10, 2017, 07:08:36 PM
I haven't voted because I don't think it matters.
I'm pretty sure if you make it draw only for mule deer the wolves and cats will eat what ever number you think your going to save.
A bandaid on a pumping artery isn't going to change much.
I voted yes, but at the same time I agree with Special T, with an over supply of bears killing the fawns in the spring, cougars and wolves killing 365 days a year, as stated above any change is just a short time bandaid. Without strict predator control the herd/herds will never recover.
Fit's right in with WDF&Wolves thirty year plan.
Post by: Slamadoo on October 10, 2017, 07:17:06 PM
Not criticizing the thread, original poster, or even disputing that some specific changes would be a good idea. Just offering food for thought.
FYI, I voted no, for the reasons stated above.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2017, 07:21:32 PM
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2017, 07:23:15 PM
First, I want to say that winters are in most cases probably the biggest factor in deer numbers. Next, with roughly 4000 cougar that average eating 25-50 deer per year, it seems that some 100,000 or more deer are destined to....Exactly,if they would bring back hounds they would bring back the deer and the elk.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2017, 07:30:18 PM
Even though this my last year hunting in WA, I voted yes. Yes because of the state of the herds here. Cats, wolves, bad winters, and disease has continued to bring down the numbers here. I seen quite a few dead yearlings this spring and have found a dozen or so cat kills. I've been seeing less than a dozen deer per day this past week.what would raising the quota do?We don't reach the quota in almost all areas in WA.Fact is we need to bring back the hounds. :twocents:
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Post by: bigmacc on October 10, 2017, 07:42:26 PM
First, I want to say that winters are in most cases probably the biggest factor in deer numbers. Next, with roughly 4000 cougar that average eating 25-50 deer per year, it seems that some 100,000 or more deer are destined to....
Yes sir! "Back in the day" we would see very few deer killing animals(cats, yotes, bear and yes...people). When we went out we would see a yote every once in awhile, if it wasn't during prime time you would kill the yote and keep walking. When my great grandparents were out there(late 1900,s-40,s) a yote had a $25 bounty on it when you turned in a tail. I still get out there every year, the herd has a history with me as if it was my"family". I have seen more cougars in the last 6 years than my whole family has seen in the last 100 years in the Methow!(we keep journals). Bears, I have had to stop in the middle of roads to let a mama and 2 or 3 cubs cross, glassed migration routes of old to see "black dots" moving along, seen a huge bear rumbling through a thicket that I could only get a glimpse of now and then only to see it come out of the brush with a 6 or 7 day old fawn in its mouth, predators, oh yes there are a lot more than years past! Wolves, I have not seen one yet but I have heard them, seen tracks and have known they were in the Methow since the early 90,s(along with moose that we knew were in the vicinity since the late 60,s, found a skeleton that we had verified from a buddy in Fish and Game Dept back in the day).
As far as the cougar problem, its bad! Like Bearpaw said they kill, kill, kill. We have wolves that like to do the same now. If we want our children and the next generations to enjoy Mule deer hunting in this state we will be the ones that need to demand changes. Once again, my :twocents:
Post by: Naches Sportsman on October 10, 2017, 07:49:03 PM
Even though this my last year hunting in WA, I voted yes. Yes because of the state of the herds here. Cats, wolves, bad winters, and disease has continued to bring down the numbers here. I seen quite a few dead yearlings this spring and have found a dozen or so cat kills. I've been seeing less than a dozen deer per day this past week.what would raising the quota do?We don't reach the quota in almost all areas in WA.Fact is we need to bring back the hounds. :twocents:
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Meant to say tag quota for every gmu by limiting amount of hunters.
Post by: Mallardmasher on October 10, 2017, 07:51:38 PM
Post by: Wingin it on October 10, 2017, 07:52:04 PM
Post by: Humptulips on October 10, 2017, 07:55:28 PM
Even though this my last year hunting in WA, I voted yes. Yes because of the state of the herds here. Cats, wolves, bad winters, and disease has continued to bring down the numbers here. I seen quite a few dead yearlings this spring and have found a dozen or so cat kills. I've been seeing less than a dozen deer per day this past week.
I would like to see them implement a quota for tags and/or draw only for the Yakima herd. Try to reduce native harvest but that won't happen due to native rights. Increase cougar harvest to a dozen for each area.
Be happy with what you have. Here where I live on the W side I would think I was in heaven seeing that many deer. Been out two days this week. Saw three deer one of which was a cougar kill.
So if there were no doe seasons how would shortening the season or limiting hunter participation increase the deer herd? That is what I don't get about these type threads.
This thread specifically is about mule deer herds on the eastside.
:dunno:
I have given this some more thought and maybe the west side does matter for Mule Deer.
Think about it. Hunters go where they think hunting is best. Lots of problems on the west side with deer hunting. Does it surprise you when a bunch of west siders decide to go over the hill.
I think we have a predator problem Statewide and it will take a Statewide fix to help Mule Deer. Sure there are other problems but are they really within our control? I think that is why limiting hunter participation seems appealing. Because it is the one thing we think we have control over.
I would posit that it is the one thing that will sink us. It won't help the decline in game herds and it will hurt our numbers, politically speaking.
The two things I think will help are decreasing predators and doing away with so many doe tags.
Problems there are both political and money. Cougars get a lot of sympathy from non-hunters and the Commission and the Department doesn't seem to be able to stand up to them. Money will be lost to the Department by limiting doe tags so that is a tough sell.
It seems to me the permit application money drives a lot of the doe tag drawings.
Tough things to grapple with but anything else won't help.
Post by: Special T on October 10, 2017, 07:56:24 PM
Fact is arguing this point is like rearranging chairs on the titanic. I feel a good farming analogy would work, but sadly some one else will have to come up with it.
We should have a ton of spring beat tags, year round cougar and bobcat and we would still likely not be hitting quotas.
Post by: HardCorpsHuntr on October 10, 2017, 08:14:32 PM
1) Eliminate the multi-season tags.
2) Pick your species (MD, WT, BT).
3) Keep season's the way they are now with a few tweaks.
:twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2017, 08:16:51 PM
First, I want to say that winters are in most cases probably the biggest factor in deer numbers. Next, with roughly 4000 cougar that average eating 25-50 deer per year, it seems that some 100,000 or more deer are destined to....
THIS^^^^^^^
Couple things not mentioned yet that have a HUGE impact;
1. Roadkill...... I drive 40 hours a week and see countless deer taken out on central WA highways. Hwy 2/97 between Wenatchee and Leavenworth, 97A between Entiat & Chelan, 97 from Wenatchee to Chelan, combine these 3 alone and I probably see several hundred squashed mulies a year. The deer/sheep fence on 97A is working well in that section, we need more of these type fences, and/or better drivers.
2. USFS and their "Let it burn" policy. :puke: If we continue to let all of our forest lands(and the deer that live in them) burn up, the herds will never fully recover. Yes, the burns will help the herds in the long run, but how many years does it take to recover back to the numbers of deer before they were burnt up? The way its going the herds build up just in time for another major fire to wipe them out again. Manage the forests better; more controlled logging and better fire suppression.......If the Forest Circus was doing their job correctly there would not be huge fires every dang year!!
As far as predators go, cougars are definitely on a huge increase in my areas. One particular trail camera alone this year had more cats on it than I have gotten altogether on 10 different cams in the last 4 years. Tried my hardest to kill one, but to no avail. Bring back hounds!!
And as others have said, There are many many reasons, all of which are not helping the herds.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2017, 08:18:05 PM
Yes for me, but it's all about reducing hunter densities and still providing annual opportunity for what's most important to the hunter.looking at these i want to ask are you for picking east or west with deer?
1) Eliminate the multi-season tags.
2) Pick your species (MD, WT, BT).
3) Keep season's the way they are now with a few tweaks.
:twocents:
Post by: snowshoes22 on October 10, 2017, 08:22:45 PM
Post by: HardCorpsHuntr on October 10, 2017, 08:24:09 PM
Yes for me, but it's all about reducing hunter densities and still providing annual opportunity for what's most important to the hunter.looking at these i want to ask are you for picking east or west with deer?
1) Eliminate the multi-season tags.
2) Pick your species (MD, WT, BT).
3) Keep season's the way they are now with a few tweaks.
:twocents:
No, strictly species. Example; you pick WT. You can kill a WT anywhere in the state (outside of permit hunts), but not a MT or BT.
Post by: ian_padron on October 10, 2017, 08:28:17 PM
Let me say, I have been against this since day one. Mostly because I didn’t want to sit out a season waiting to be drawn, but I have completely flipped. Our herd is in horrible shape. I can’t eloquently express how bad they are. If we don’t do something soon, they are done. No doe tags, no late hunts for a couple years. Shut down units, something has to be done.I agree with Bone. Zap the doe, youth, and rut hunts. If that doesn't help, then we can talk about making all deer hunting permit only. I also think that motorized access should be eliminated in areas like the Teanaway, Colockum, etc. That'd due a whole lot of good for the deer back there.
Sent from my LG-H872 using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2017, 08:29:38 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 10, 2017, 08:49:20 PM
First, I want to say that winters are in most cases probably the biggest factor in deer numbers. Next, with roughly 4000 cougar that average eating 25-50 deer per year, it seems that some 100,000 or more deer are destined to....
THIS^^^^^^^
Couple things not mentioned yet that have a HUGE impact;
1. Roadkill...... I drive 40 hours a week and see countless deer taken out on central WA highways. Hwy 2/97 between Wenatchee and Leavenworth, 97A between Entiat & Chelan, 97 from Wenatchee to Chelan, combine these 3 alone and I probably see several hundred squashed mulies a year. The deer/sheep fence on 97A is working well in that section, we need more of these type fences, and/or better drivers.
2. USFS and their "Let it burn" policy. :puke: If we continue to let all of our forest lands(and the deer that live in them) burn up, the herds will never fully recover. Yes, the burns will help the herds in the long run, but how many years does it take to recover back to the numbers of deer before they were burnt up? The way its going the herds build up just in time for another major fire to wipe them out again. Manage the forests better; more controlled logging and better fire suppression.......If the Forest Circus was doing their job correctly there would not be huge fires every dang year!!
As far as predators go, cougars are definitely on a huge increase in my areas. One particular trail camera alone this year had more cats on it than I have gotten altogether on 10 different cams in the last 4 years. Tried my hardest to kill one, but to no avail. Bring back hounds!!
And as others have said, There are many many reasons, all of which are not helping the herds.
PS, I voted No.....but would be on board with a Yes only after seeing a well thought out plan.
Post by: REHJWA on October 10, 2017, 08:56:13 PM
What new system? Most new system mentioned so far just reduces opportunities for people and would have little impact on recovery.
New Draw? Oh so we can put more money into wolf recovery...don't see that help the herd.
Alternating Year? Reducing Hunter participation may increase herd numbers short term BUT most long term increases would be lost to predators and natural selection.
So...Yes the mule deer in the state need help in recovering.
There have been fewer and fewer deer since the 90s where we high hunt.
So what has changed? The most obvious for me is the restrictions that reduced effective predator controls.
Reestablish bait and hound seasons.
Establish a wolf draw by GMU in GMUs where wolves have "sustainable populations".(this would off set reduced funds from does tags)
Until annual reproduction rates increase we will never have the herds near carring capacity.
So..Reduce or discontinue does harvests until population objectives are meet..
Just my :twocents:
Post by: kselkhunter on October 10, 2017, 09:07:43 PM
Well that and predator management....but would really rather not get into a wolf discussion here.
Long story short, I voted "yes". Although, it would be nice to make the permit system set up such that residents of that county have higher odds at the permit in their county. I'm a wet sider, and even I'm annoyed with all of us that go overpopulate the mule deer hunting areas. There is not much industry on the east side and folks that live there do it to enjoy the areas they live, at least give the guys that live over there higher odds to hunt in their own back yards. :twocents:
Maybe general tags for the county you live, and limit permits for people that don't live in the county for the tag.....
Post by: Slamadoo on October 10, 2017, 09:28:15 PM
2. Until our resources are managed through science and the North American Wildlife Conservation Model instead of the ballot box, voter emotion, and politicians, it will be virtually impossible to manage our wildlife efficiently or appropriately.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 10, 2017, 09:43:23 PM
Post by: kselkhunter on October 10, 2017, 09:53:07 PM
I always see cougar at night time when hiking back to my tent in the dark in backcountry. Make cougar an "any hour" tag, and we can limit them more easily. Wouldn't be using a dog or baiting which are seen as evil to environmental groups, so not as "unsportsmanlike". Just shooting them with aid of my headlamp on the hike back to camp. Crazy how many are in my area. Never see them in daylight, just in the dark.
Post by: Oh Mah on October 10, 2017, 10:09:22 PM
Deer farms could protect the deer from poachers and preditors better than the dept. is.The deer would be healthier eating better on the farms,Lice could be eliminated in time.JUST A THOUGHT IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS THAT'S FINE JUST GIVER SOUND REASONS FOR IT PLEASE.
Post by: Slamadoo on October 11, 2017, 05:42:24 AM
These are a few reasons to NEVER support high fence hunting in this or any state.
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2017, 09:53:57 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 11, 2017, 10:14:43 AM
Post by: trapp01 on October 11, 2017, 10:30:05 AM
Post by: lunchbox on October 11, 2017, 12:16:52 PM
Post by: Smokepole on October 11, 2017, 12:58:26 PM
Also increase fines for poaching and wildlife harassment. Use high fines to curb mortality from domestic dogs.
We need to do a lot of these things to protect the mule deer. They aren't very adaptable. :twocents:
Post by: Bigshooter on October 11, 2017, 01:17:02 PM
Post by: Deerelk37 on October 11, 2017, 02:40:08 PM
I am in favor of choosing east or west or reducing mule deer rifle to even one weekend through the following friday. Tbh I am in favor of anything the game dept will actually do...before it's too late. I haven't hunted mule deer since 2015-I can't ask to solve a problem, if I am part of it.
Post by: huntnphool on October 11, 2017, 02:42:43 PM
Post by: Special T on October 11, 2017, 02:48:36 PM
Part of the issue IMO is that many are willing to dedicate a huge amount of time to hunting Deer and Elk but that is not the case with predator hunting, with exception of a few hunters.
Post by: Deerelk37 on October 11, 2017, 03:51:53 PM
The Crux of this problem is evident in so many peoples posts. A huge component of this issue is not under sportmens control. Many are mistaken that we can effect some meaningful change by altering the small portion we can control. If only it were that easy.
Part of the issue IMO is that many are willing to dedicate a huge amount of time to hunting Deer and Elk but that is not the case with predator hunting, with exception of a few hunters.
I have had the same thought lately. I plan on doing some coyote hunting this winter, I figure I need something to do and anything to help the deer and elk populations I am down for. I went out bear hunting for the first time this year but didn't see a bear. I would harvest one every year if I could. It was kind of a daunting task this year as I had no clue where to start. If anyone on here would be willing to take me out next year or give me some pointers I would graciously oblige. :chuckle:
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on October 11, 2017, 04:01:39 PM
I would like to see herd management prioritized over the current emphasis on opportunity and resource allocation. Currently, herd managers have their hands tied by efforts to equalize success between user groups, that means it is nearly impossible with mule deer specifically to have archers have enough success without allowing antlerless harvest. Same goes for pressure for increased harvest opportunities for youth, senior, disabled, and enough antlerless and second deer permits areas to get hunters to buy the special permit applications ($$$). All of those are fine when numbers are high, the problem is they don't go away when numbers are down. Prioritize protecting the reproductive segment of the herds over equalizing success between user groups and providing doe harvest opportunities.
I would like to see all mule deer hunting, general and special permit, end before the rut. Over time this will increase the quality of general hunt trophy opportunities; more important, it will allow deer to breed and not expend precious energy avoiding hunters right before going into winter. Better condition deer after November means higher winter survival, heavier birth weights, and may allow better mate selection by does. Bona fide agricultural damage can be addressed on a case by case basis administered by WDFW's damage control specialists.
I would like to see all public land winter ranges closed to motorized access December through March. Including snowmobiles. It continues to amaze me that this state - including the USFS - allow running snow mobiles on crucial winter ranges.
I would encourage more mule deer hunters to take up serious predator hunting - if you want predator control, that is the ONLY way it is going to happen given Washington's human population. The government isn't going to do it.
I would like to see the USFS have success in not diverting their resource management funding to firefighting. Open canopied forest stands are both resilient to crown fires, and produce a LOT more nutritious forage than overstocked, closed canopy timber. Log the diseased stands while the trees are still alive, manage the reprod/regen to NOT create another closed canopy stand. Cool understory fires are great for mule deer - stand replacing, soil sterilizing hellfire is not.
Full disclosure: I do not voluntarily limit myself, but am willing to share being limited with everyone. In the meantime, I will continue to apply for whatever opportunities are available, and use them when I draw.
Post by: ian_padron on October 11, 2017, 04:17:11 PM
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Post by: NoBark on October 11, 2017, 05:05:06 PM
Post by: Mr Mykiss on October 11, 2017, 09:02:39 PM
Post by: jagermiester on October 11, 2017, 09:25:33 PM
Seriously though there is no coming back from such a drastic change as what is being proposed. Deer numbers fluctuate but we are the true conservationist. Support habitat change, lobby to bring back hound hunting. But take away hunting opportunities does not breed future hunters and without future hunters we are all screwed.
In one year 100 deer can turn into 150
year two 250
year three 400
Kill a cat :o
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2017, 10:52:50 PM
The Crux of this problem is evident in so many peoples posts. A huge component of this issue is not under sportmens control. Many are mistaken that we can effect some meaningful change by altering the small portion we can control. If only it were that easy.
Part of the issue IMO is that many are willing to dedicate a huge amount of time to hunting Deer and Elk but that is not the case with predator hunting, with exception of a few hunters.
I like the way you think Special t :tup: I will admit that I am not as aggressive at predator control as I could be. And cats are tough without four legged trackers.
HOWEVER, that said if the state would simply loosen the noose on predator restrictions, I don't think that predator control would be as gloomy as it sometimes seems. For instance if there were year round cougar seasons statewide, and OTC spring bear seasons, I would likely fill all four tags on a regular basis. I am fortunate to spend alot of time in the woods. Often in late winter/spring. I see cats and bears nearly every year while scouting BT and shed hunting. But with the exception of a few units most are closed to cats because "quota" has been met in the productive units. ( which makes no sense, don't cats have like a statewide homerange :chuckle:) And bears well thats a whole debacle in and of itself. Its like bears are more tightly managed than deer and elk. If they dont want to go full state wide OTC, at least double or triple the permits and have an east and west.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on October 11, 2017, 11:14:01 PM
I don't want to get flamed for saying this but what about land owners with large tracts of land that pay taxes. Should they have to wait for a tag? Many land owners in agricultural Eastern Washington manage their land better than the state. Should they have to sit out seasons?
Will they allow public access to those animals? If so I would think some sort of incentive system, could work well. If not, how is it different than any other taxed citizen? They're are options available fof them to hunt every year as is.
Post by: huntnphool on October 12, 2017, 01:06:16 AM
I voted no mainly because of the "hope and change" lack of specificity in the poll mentioned previously. That doesn't mean I would not favor certain changes. I do believe we can continue to hunt buck mule deer every year under 3-point or better, without negatively affecting herd size or herd health. I would like to see multiseason deer permit hunting done away with for mule deer, with relatively small harvest opportunities with depressed herds we don't need one subgroup with greater opportunities.
I would like to see herd management prioritized over the current emphasis on opportunity and resource allocation. Currently, herd managers have their hands tied by efforts to equalize success between user groups, that means it is nearly impossible with mule deer specifically to have archers have enough success without allowing antlerless harvest. Same goes for pressure for increased harvest opportunities for youth, senior, disabled, and enough antlerless and second deer permits areas to get hunters to buy the special permit applications ($$$). All of those are fine when numbers are high, the problem is they don't go away when numbers are down. Prioritize protecting the reproductive segment of the herds over equalizing success between user groups and providing doe harvest opportunities.
I would like to see all mule deer hunting, general and special permit, end before the rut. Over time this will increase the quality of general hunt trophy opportunities; more important, it will allow deer to breed and not expend precious energy avoiding hunters right before going into winter. Better condition deer after November means higher winter survival, heavier birth weights, and may allow better mate selection by does. Bona fide agricultural damage can be addressed on a case by case basis administered by WDFW's damage control specialists.
I would like to see all public land winter ranges closed to motorized access December through March. Including snowmobiles. It continues to amaze me that this state - including the USFS - allow running snow mobiles on crucial winter ranges.
I would encourage more mule deer hunters to take up serious predator hunting - if you want predator control, that is the ONLY way it is going to happen given Washington's human population. The government isn't going to do it.
I would like to see the USFS have success in not diverting their resource management funding to firefighting. Open canopied forest stands are both resilient to crown fires, and produce a LOT more nutritious forage than overstocked, closed canopy timber. Log the diseased stands while the trees are still alive, manage the reprod/regen to NOT create another closed canopy stand. Cool understory fires are great for mule deer - stand replacing, soil sterilizing hellfire is not.
Full disclosure: I do not voluntarily limit myself, but am willing to share being limited with everyone. In the meantime, I will continue to apply for whatever opportunities are available, and use them when I draw.
Spot on, although I believe we do need to limit the number of hunters each year to some extent.
It would be insightful for you all to read this entire opinion! :twocents:
Post by: jagermiester on October 12, 2017, 06:07:24 AM
It is truly awesome that so many are willing to make such a change.
Read the quote from double lung though this is where the true change will occur. He is spot on in my opinion.
Post by: baldopepper on October 12, 2017, 07:57:22 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2017, 09:33:37 AM
I believe our current outcome to date is what WDFW have strived for, they would prefer WDFW be funded by the tax payer and to eliminate hunting altogether. That being said I wonder if a class action lawsuit could bring about some of the changes that need to take place, after all isn't WDFW suppose to manage all wildlife and not just predators?
Post by: Special T on October 12, 2017, 09:48:27 AM
I wish there more coyote derbies like the one that has happened in the NE corner... where you had a month and got raffle tickets to enter in for prizes. I think it's an example of how hunters left to their own devices can send a message.
Post by: Bushcraft on October 12, 2017, 09:55:19 AM
Washington's mulies have a predator problem. No question.
There are the usual culprits: Bears, Cougars, Wolves, Coyotes, etc. We all agree that their numbers must be dramatically culled.
But, we must also factor in Humans. Since we can't cull them, we need to reduce the opportunity for them to take a mule deer.
Comparing Washington to other states is problematic in the sense that we are different from other Western states. Our habitat is markedly different. Our critical habitat is under extensive pressure and encroachment. Our culture and social fabric is different (note that I did not say "better" ;) ). And finally, our population is significantly larger than other states...and growing. Ergo the problem.
We can't have more mule deer if every Tom, Dick, Harry and Becky try to take a whack at a mule deer every year. There is a finite amount of them that is considerably less than the population of deer hunters. There are perfectly viable and accepted reasons why Sheep, Mountain Goat and Moose have limited entry. Perhaps a draw only would decrease pressure on the mule deer herds? Perhaps if sportsmen helped make damn sure their critical winter habitat isn't adversely impacted would help? Perhaps if hunters did more to try and fill their bear and cougar tags every year? (That reminds me, I need to take some bear meat down to the local food bank.) Perhaps stopping the taking of does would help? Can't have more babies without more mommies. Just sayin.
Now...if you're talking whitetails...unleash the fury!
Post by: T-Dozzer on October 12, 2017, 11:48:58 AM
Post by: jackelope on October 12, 2017, 12:00:50 PM
I voted in the affirmative, but did so with the understanding that doing something for Mule Deer is only part of a complex puzzle.
Washington's mulies have a predator problem. No question.
There are the usual culprits: Bears, Cougars, Wolves, Coyotes, etc. We all agree that their numbers must be dramatically culled.
But, we must also factor in Humans. Since we can't cull them, we need to reduce the opportunity for them to take a mule deer.
Comparing Washington to other states is problematic in the sense that we are different from other Western states. Our habitat is markedly different. Our critical habitat is under extensive pressure and encroachment. Our culture and social fabric is different (note that I did not say "better" ;) ). And finally, our population is significantly larger than other states...and growing. Ergo the problem.
We can't have more mule deer if every Tom, Dick, Harry and Becky try to take a whack at a mule deer every year. There is a finite amount of them that is considerably less than the population of deer hunters. There are perfectly viable and accepted reasons why Sheep, Mountain Goat and Moose have limited entry. Perhaps a draw only would decrease pressure on the mule deer herds? Perhaps if sportsmen helped make damn sure their critical winter habitat isn't adversely impacted would help? Perhaps if hunters did more to try and fill their bear and cougar tags every year? (That reminds me, I need to take some bear meat down to the local food bank.) Perhaps stopping the taking of does would help? Can't have more babies without more mommies. Just sayin.
Now...if you're talking whitetails...unleash the fury!
Well said.
Side note...What food banks take wild game meat? My mom used to volunteer at one and she couldn't take it. I'd like to donate also.
Post by: bigmacc on October 12, 2017, 12:35:22 PM
Post by: bullcanyon on October 12, 2017, 01:22:39 PM
Post by: Bushcraft on October 12, 2017, 01:51:45 PM
I voted in the affirmative, but did so with the understanding that doing something for Mule Deer is only part of a complex puzzle.
Washington's mulies have a predator problem. No question.
There are the usual culprits: Bears, Cougars, Wolves, Coyotes, etc. We all agree that their numbers must be dramatically culled.
But, we must also factor in Humans. Since we can't cull them, we need to reduce the opportunity for them to take a mule deer.
Comparing Washington to other states is problematic in the sense that we are different from other Western states. Our habitat is markedly different. Our critical habitat is under extensive pressure and encroachment. Our culture and social fabric is different (note that I did not say "better" ;) ). And finally, our population is significantly larger than other states...and growing. Ergo the problem.
We can't have more mule deer if every Tom, Dick, Harry and Becky try to take a whack at a mule deer every year. There is a finite amount of them that is considerably less than the population of deer hunters. There are perfectly viable and accepted reasons why Sheep, Mountain Goat and Moose have limited entry. Perhaps a draw only would decrease pressure on the mule deer herds? Perhaps if sportsmen helped make damn sure their critical winter habitat isn't adversely impacted would help? Perhaps if hunters did more to try and fill their bear and cougar tags every year? (That reminds me, I need to take some bear meat down to the local food bank.) Perhaps stopping the taking of does would help? Can't have more babies without more mommies. Just sayin.
Now...if you're talking whitetails...unleash the fury!
Well said.
Side note...What food banks take wild game meat? My mom used to volunteer at one and she couldn't take it. I'd like to donate also.
Our local food bank is happy to take it in. All of Washington's SCI chapters regularly do annual "clean out the freezer drives" and donate the meat to their local food banks with no issues that I recall. Many, many thousands of pounds have been donated over the years. I suspect the other sportsmen's groups in the state do the same or similar. Maybe it comes down to the meat being packaged vs. non-packaged?
Post by: Jimmy33 on October 12, 2017, 02:32:16 PM
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Post by: bigmacc on October 12, 2017, 04:09:32 PM
We can't control the weather, but we can control predators. Hunting was pretty good in the 90s. Well right up until they took away hound hunting. Why haven't we tried to bring that back?
A big part of the problem is predator control as you, myself and a lot of others have stated. This state used to control predators through trapping, hound hunting etc.etc., heck, like I stated in another thread, there used to be a bounty on yotes in this state, turn in a tail and get cash! But then like I said before, more and more people started moving to this state, some being against a lot of things we as sportsmen and women enjoy. Slowly it has affected our logging, fishing, hunting etc. Back in the day sportsmens clubs were a big deal as far as community involvement goes and they were front and center proud of it,there were raffles, derbys, fund raisers, hunting pics and stories were printed in local papers and I,m talking papers from the west side, from Tacoma to Bellingham! Now we need to hide our kills, watch what we say to certain folks, live in the shadows and kill a little coyote, a furry cat or a cuddley bear, shame on you! Its the state we live in fellas and gals, all these critters that others don't want us to hurt are a big part of our mule deer decline, not the whole puzzle but a big piece of it.
Post by: wolfbait on October 12, 2017, 04:45:48 PM
Cites Need for Predator Control to Restore Deer
http://idahoforwildlife.com/files/pdf/georgeDovel/The%20Outdoorsman%20No%20%2029%20June-July%202008%20Nevada%20Predator%20Specialist%20Challenges%20Excuses,%20Cites%20Need%20for%20Predator%20Control%20to%20Restore%20Deer.pdf
Wolf Predation: More Bad News
By preying mostly on the elk, wolves can/will take the more vulnerable mule deer to exceedingly low levels or extinction. The wolves that were turned loose in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming have preyed primarily on elk and there are data on how many elk each wolf kills per year––22 elk/wolf/year––but there is little data from those states or anywhere else on the effect of wolf predation on mule deer. To put it simply, mule deer decline so rapidly that there is nothing left to study!
Hunter harvest of black-tailed deer on Vancouver Island though, gives some idea of what will happen if pro-wolf advocates have their way. Before wolves arrived, sportsmen on Vancouver Island took home around 25,000 blacktails a year. Now that wolves have overrun the island, the figure has plummeted to less than 4,000 deer a year. Moreover, blacktails are now found in reasonable abundance only where they live in suburbs or cities; i.e., the deer have moved into towns to avoid predators.
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2008/09 … -bad-news/
The above link doesn’t work anymore, but there are other articles that state the same info.
Post by: Whitenuckles on October 12, 2017, 05:28:26 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 12, 2017, 08:11:33 PM
I voted no. Let's start with predator management before we screw with people's hunting. But, I'm totally on board for eliminating doe tags.
Once again, predators ARE a problem but not even close to fixing the issue of declining mule deer herds in this state, there are a couple other threads that have popped up prior that talks about the "parade" the "circus", the pilgrimage and what ever else you want to call it that is heading east this weekend, these "pumpkin patches" that we have seen sprouting up over the last few decades are also a problem. Once again, there are many pieces to the puzzle. Months ago I posted the "3 P,s" are what is ruining mule deer hunting in the Methow at least, PEOPLE, PREDATORS AND PRESSURE. If each one of these are not addressed hunting in the Methow as some of us remember 15 to 20 years ago (let alone 50 years ago) will be nothing but a fond memory. Mark my words.
Post by: jagermiester on October 12, 2017, 09:27:58 PM
I voted no. Let's start with predator management before we screw with people's hunting. But, I'm totally on board for eliminating doe tags.
Once again, predators ARE a problem but not even close to fixing the issue of declining mule deer herds in this state, there are a couple other threads that have popped up prior that talks about the "parade" the "circus", the pilgrimage and what ever else you want to call it that is heading east this weekend, these "pumpkin patches" that we have seen sprouting up over the last few decades are also a problem. Once again, there are many pieces to the puzzle. Months ago I posted the "3 P,s" are what is ruining mule deer hunting in the Methow at least, PEOPLE, PREDATORS AND PRESSURE. If each one of these are not addressed hunting in the Methow as some of us remember 15 to 20 years ago (let alone 50 years ago) will be nothing but a fond memory. Mark my words.
I understand what you are saying but at the same time look at the numbers we get 9 days to hunt and most people hunt the first three days then go to their kids soccer game the next weekend. Earlier in this thread it was said that sportsmans clubs were a big deal. Everyone keeps wanting to relive the glory days but whats funny is in the glory days everyone hunted and the seasons were long. I used to hunt areas that had more deer and when it sucked I moved on. Stop hunting the Methow and move on to better hunting grounds but mark my words if you don't provide good habitat and protect the does and fawns from predators including human hunting, nothing will get better. We noticed a decline in deer where I hunt and we were seeing a ton of cougar sign. I would like to say I killed the cat but I didn't, Something happened though we are seeing way less cougar sign and a ton of deer. Mule deer. Stay the course boys, protect the does and kill the predators, Provide habitat and be a conservationist. Without us everything will fall. Take away opportunity and there will be less of us. Get your kid's and grandkid's into hunting.
Post by: huntnphool on October 12, 2017, 10:40:49 PM
I voted no. Let's start with predator management before we screw with people's hunting. But, I'm totally on board for eliminating doe tags.
Once again, predators ARE a problem but not even close to fixing the issue of declining mule deer herds in this state, there are a couple other threads that have popped up prior that talks about the "parade" the "circus", the pilgrimage and what ever else you want to call it that is heading east this weekend, these "pumpkin patches" that we have seen sprouting up over the last few decades are also a problem. Once again, there are many pieces to the puzzle. Months ago I posted the "3 P,s" are what is ruining mule deer hunting in the Methow at least, PEOPLE, PREDATORS AND PRESSURE. If each one of these are not addressed hunting in the Methow as some of us remember 15 to 20 years ago (let alone 50 years ago) will be nothing but a fond memory. Mark my words.
I understand what you are saying but at the same time look at the numbers we get 9 days to hunt and most people hunt the first three days then go to their kids soccer game the next weekend. Earlier in this thread it was said that sportsmans clubs were a big deal. Everyone keeps wanting to relive the glory days but whats funny is in the glory days everyone hunted and the seasons were long.
This is one of the contributing factors to ever decreasing numbers IMO. "back in the day".........and not that long ago in reality, the general season was much longer......AND we had ALOT more hunters, yet we still seldom saw more than a handful of hunters each day when we went out.
Fast forward to "the new management"........shorten the season to the point that EVERYONE asked for the same week off and EVERYONE is forced to hunt the exact same week as the next guy. Even with a lot less total hunters purchasing tags, with all of them in the woods at the same time, the escapement or survivability for any legal buck in the area is virtually zero.
I've been saying for years, get rid of the late permit hunts and run the general season through Oct. This would spread the pressure out over a greater amount of time, allowing hunters to not be forced to "combat hunt" and allow the rut to take place unpressured....like it used to be. Add in the fact that today there are A LOT less hunters than there were when that was how the season ran, and IMO the numbers would improve. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 13, 2017, 05:36:45 AM
Post by: Gobble on October 13, 2017, 05:42:57 AM
Post by: bigmacc on October 13, 2017, 06:27:52 AM
I voted no. Let's start with predator management before we screw with people's hunting. But, I'm totally on board for eliminating doe tags.
Once again, predators ARE a problem but not even close to fixing the issue of declining mule deer herds in this state, there are a couple other threads that have popped up prior that talks about the "parade" the "circus", the pilgrimage and what ever else you want to call it that is heading east this weekend, these "pumpkin patches" that we have seen sprouting up over the last few decades are also a problem. Once again, there are many pieces to the puzzle. Months ago I posted the "3 P,s" are what is ruining mule deer hunting in the Methow at least, PEOPLE, PREDATORS AND PRESSURE. If each one of these are not addressed hunting in the Methow as some of us remember 15 to 20 years ago (let alone 50 years ago) will be nothing but a fond memory. Mark my words.
I understand what you are saying but at the same time look at the numbers we get 9 days to hunt and most people hunt the first three days then go to their kids soccer game the next weekend. Earlier in this thread it was said that sportsmans clubs were a big deal. Everyone keeps wanting to relive the glory days but whats funny is in the glory days everyone hunted and the seasons were long.
This is one of the contributing factors to ever decreasing numbers IMO. "back in the day".........and not that lady no ago in reality, the general season was much longer......AND we had ALOT more hunters, yet we still seldom saw more than a handful of hunters each day when we went out.
Fast forward to "the new management"........shorten the season to the point that EVERYONE asked for the same week off and EVERYONE is forced to hunt the exact same week as the next guy. Even with a lot less total hunters purchasing tags, with all of them in the woods at the same time, the escapement or survivability for any legal buck in the area is virtually zero.
I've been saying for years, get rid of the late permit hunts and run the general season through Oct. This would spread the pressure out over a greater amount of time, allowing hunters to not be forced to "combat hunt" and allow the rut to take place unpressured....like it used to be. Add in the fact that today there are A LOT less hunters than there were when that was how the season ran, and IMO the numbers would improve. :twocents:
Great post phool :tup: I couldn't agree more. The issue is defiantly not just a one headed snake I,m afraid.
Post by: Odell on October 13, 2017, 06:40:04 AM
I voted no because I believe that the does need to be protected from predators. We all need to start hunting cats ;)
Seriously though there is no coming back from such a drastic change as what is being proposed. Deer numbers fluctuate but we are the true conservationist. Support habitat change, lobby to bring back hound hunting. But take away hunting opportunities does not breed future hunters and without future hunters we are all screwed.
In one year 100 deer can turn into 150
year two 250
year three 400
Kill a cat :o
I was thinking the same thing. When our big game seasons end we might each do a predator focused hunt. Enough people do this and it will have an impact.
Post by: Odell on October 13, 2017, 06:45:24 AM
If we are going to spend energy lobbying for anything it should be a protection of hunting rights. We need a ballot initiative proposal that ensures fish and game management decisions are made by fish and game. It is madness that the general population can legislate in areas they know nothing about.
Post by: bigmacc on October 13, 2017, 07:26:34 AM
Also, hound hunting in this state is never coming back. That is a battle lost.
If we are going to spend energy lobbying for anything it should be a protection of hunting rights. We need a ballot initiative proposal that ensures fish and game management decisions are made by fish and game. It is madness that the general population can legislate in areas they know nothing about.
One of the big problems as I mentioned before is decisions are not being made by the "Fish and Game" dept any more, they are now the WDFW, when they were Fish and Game, hunting, fishing, GAME management were top priorities now they have to cater to lots of other user groups. Like I said this whole issue of declining mule deer herds is a many headed snake. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on October 13, 2017, 07:53:44 AM
Post by: Bushcraft on October 13, 2017, 09:20:31 AM
Any suggestions then?
How about prohibiting the use of two-way radios to unethically direct another hunter in on mule deer (and other big game animals)?
I know of at least one mule deer buck that would likely have lived to see another day if a unethical father/son combo hadn't used radios during this year's High Buck season. Two last year.
Post by: huntnphool on October 13, 2017, 09:49:25 AM
Any suggestions then?
How about prohibiting the use of two-way radios to unethically direct another hunter in on mule deer (and other big game animals)?
I know of at least one mule deer buck that would likely have lived to see another day if a unethical father/son combo hadn't used radios during this year's High Buck season. Two last year.
Thanks for the input, and I could be wrong but I don't think prohibiting the use of radio's is going to be a contributing factor in bringing our herds back to desirable levels. :dunno:
.....and even if you prohibit radios, you are not going to get a cell phone ban, could be a topic for another discussion? :tup:
Post by: vandeman17 on October 13, 2017, 10:02:06 AM
Any suggestions then?
How about prohibiting the use of two-way radios to unethically direct another hunter in on mule deer (and other big game animals)?
I know of at least one mule deer buck that would likely have lived to see another day if a unethical father/son combo hadn't used radios during this year's High Buck season. Two last year.
Thanks for the input, and I could be wrong but I don't think prohibiting the use of radio's is going to be a contributing factor in bringing our herds back to desirable levels. :dunno:
.....and even if you prohibit radios, you are not going to get a cell phone ban, could be a topic for another discussion? :tup:
Beat me too. Way bigger fish to fry than use of radios :twocents:
Post by: jagermiester on October 13, 2017, 10:15:00 AM
Any suggestions then?
How about prohibiting the use of two-way radios to unethically direct another hunter in on mule deer (and other big game animals)?
I know of at least one mule deer buck that would likely have lived to see another day if a unethical father/son combo hadn't used radios during this year's High Buck season. Two last year.
Man the answer has been right here under our nose the whole time. That's it no more radios deer numbers bounce back.
This is all in good fun.
I'm with you man I hate unethical things too. :tup:
Post by: Bushcraft on October 13, 2017, 01:03:51 PM
Post by: archerykraze on October 13, 2017, 03:04:33 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on October 13, 2017, 04:49:47 PM
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Post by: jstone on October 13, 2017, 04:57:59 PM
Post by: Humptulips on October 13, 2017, 04:59:16 PM
Any suggestions then?
1st step is to get the Department to admit predators are a problem. Untill you get that solutions will never get implemented.
Post by: Jpmiller on October 13, 2017, 05:11:42 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 13, 2017, 05:19:13 PM
It's shaping up to be a great season for Muleys with all the snow, should be lots of big bucks that get taken this weekend.
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Great season or slaughter. While a good opening weekend is fun for some, what are the impacts for years to come.
Post by: huntnphool on October 13, 2017, 07:36:02 PM
It's shaping up to be a great season for Muleys with all the snow, should be lots of big bucks that get taken this weekend.
It won't have much effect on the general, there needs to be a lot more snow up high than this to move those migrators down this early.
That being said, if this keeps up the late tag holders will have a lot to choose from. :twocents:
Post by: wolfbait on October 13, 2017, 09:26:00 PM
Any suggestions then?
I kind of think it's a little late for this discussion, as long as there is no accountability with WDF&Wolves. Next year and each year after, less hunters will hunt in places like the Methow etc. that don't produce.
If predator control is not emplimented to a point that lessens the impact on deer etc. then the herds will be in a predator pit, meaning they will never recover.
I don't believe WDFW give :twocents: about the state of the game herds, so I highly doubt they would be interested in cutting back on the seasons or eliminating all but the general with all categories in one hunt.
Reading some of the comments and from talking to other hunters over the last few years, there is no way many of them will stop hunting areas on their own to help the herds. So in a way they will hunt themselves with the help of uncontrolled predators out of hunting, and
WDFW will say "for the amount of hunters that showed up, hunting was a great success"........
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 13, 2017, 10:13:58 PM
It's shaping up to be a great season for Muleys with all the snow, should be lots of big bucks that get taken this weekend.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hmmmmmmm.............Curious which way to take this :dunno:
But I'll bite,
A prime example of why the rifle season should be moved a week earlier.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 13, 2017, 10:35:24 PM
Any suggestions then?
1. Archery - Sept. 1-21 / Muzzy - Sept. 22-30 / Modern - Oct. 6-14 (2018 dates, and status quo on current gender guidelines)
2. Drastically reduce "Quality" permits. Make them truly quality.
3. No more Multi Season permits....To offset $ loss, add 1 or 2 raffle permits (with a cap of 10 tickets per person)
4. Increase Cougar quotas & Initiate hounds again....aint gonna happen but should
5. Implement permits for 2 points. :dunno:
Post by: muleracks on October 13, 2017, 10:39:49 PM
Post by: bullcanyon on October 16, 2017, 08:43:57 AM
Please tell me why there are any doe tags for this area when the wdfw knew how bad the winter was? I honestly want to apply for it just so one less doe is not killed. Makes zero sense to me!
Post by: BULLBLASTER on October 16, 2017, 09:51:32 AM
Post by: Colville on October 16, 2017, 10:13:12 AM
Post by: Jpmiller on October 16, 2017, 10:29:20 AM
Make the methow region a recovery region. Allow a second eastside bear if you take one in that region. Make whitetail any deer for the next couple years to reduce the pressure on Mule deer. Ultimately, they are going to have to recover the winter range. Until you have mature winter browse I doubt there'll be a real opportunity for a major bounce back. It's probably a decade long commitment.
I think going to any whitetail will have the most impact. A second besr tag would help too. I would have taken the bear I saw if I knew I could to buy another tag but I didn't want to use it on a teeny one.
Post by: huntnphool on October 16, 2017, 10:31:27 AM
I honestly want to apply for it just so one less doe is not killed.
There are those that have been doing this for decades, albeit at the risk of being ridiculed and berated.
If you do it, I'd suggest not admitting it online. ;)
Post by: huntnphool on October 16, 2017, 10:33:26 AM
Make the methow region a recovery region. Allow a second eastside bear if you take one in that region. Make whitetail any deer for the next couple years to reduce the pressure on Mule deer. Ultimately, they are going to have to recover the winter range. Until you have mature winter browse I doubt there'll be a real opportunity for a major bounce back. It's probably a decade long commitment.
I think going to any whitetail will have the most impact. A second besr tag would help too. I would have taken the bear I saw if I knew I could to buy another tag but I didn't want to use it on a teeny one.
The issue with that is there are muley does that get killed by idiots every year thinking they are WT.
Post by: timberfaller on October 16, 2017, 10:40:25 AM
You'd first need to weed out the "Anti's" out of the department and then hire some "biologist" that understood animal husbandry!! :yike:
This is my first year not buying a license or tags(48 years in a row) after the last couple of years in all my old stomping grounds and seeing the lack there of, it was a simple choice.
Post by: vandeman17 on October 16, 2017, 10:40:45 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 16, 2017, 11:03:41 AM
Too bad hunters don't spend a few years concentrating on predators instead of ungulates, from WDF&Wolves own actions we know that the only management for the game herds will have to come form the public, via predator control etc.. :twocents:
Post by: Colville on October 16, 2017, 12:38:24 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 16, 2017, 07:22:50 PM
Let's see, Huge fire on the winter ground. Huge winter kill. Yeah it's the wolves. Sorry, they are contributors but they are not the center of the problem. Whitetails out compete mule deer on any ground where they are together. If that pushes mule deer in the winter, it's lost energy. I doubt whitetail reduction will be a huge changer. The "big" changer, mild winter for 2 or 3 in a row. Outside of that, it's all nibbling at the edges. There's lot of winter ground, but lots of it contains less of what they used to eat. Besides, wolves are something we can't address and all the rest, IS.
Mild winter would help, but the big change in other states was adding wolves to the list of predators.
Post by: mfswallace on October 16, 2017, 09:32:58 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 16, 2017, 10:41:39 PM
Wolves, Wolves, Wolves and 1/4 other factors. The first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem!!
Agreed!
Post by: wolfbait on October 17, 2017, 08:50:41 PM
In 2010-11 we watched the wolves slaughter the hell out of the deer, from Mazama to Carlton, and that was just from county and state roads we hike into kills off of.
In 2004 at least one game warden openly admitted the drop in the deer herd was because of wolves.
Most people now can now see the writing on the wall, in the fact that WDFW does not have hunters interests at heart.
Uncontrolled wolves means no hunting eventually, and you can look forward to the rest of WA looking just like the Methow etc. in your not so distant future.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 17, 2017, 09:02:14 PM
Post by: huntnphool on October 17, 2017, 09:36:48 PM
It will be interesting to see the vote totals around the end of November.......remember that you can change your vote.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 17, 2017, 09:49:50 PM
Post by: mfswallace on October 17, 2017, 10:02:38 PM
There are no known wolves that frequent some mule deer areas (ie; Entiat) So I have a really hard time buying the "all because of the wolves" mentality. I am positive they are a contributing factor(where they are present) but winterkill, human harvest, cats, and habitat loss are by far more detrimental to the Mule deer herds.
:DOH: :DOH:
Post by: tgomez on October 18, 2017, 01:43:25 AM
I think there are plenty of deer around still (atleast in the GMUs I hunt) overall. I still see a good 20-25 mulies a day on my hunts, and this is an area that has lots of whitetail mixed in. The problem is the QUALITY of the bucks is going down hill. I really think 1 mule deer ever 3 years would help the herds overall. I also think that youth should be able to shoot mule does to even out the buck to doe ratios. I see 1 buck to every 7 does most of the time. We want it to be more like 1 to 3 or 1 to 4.
The 3 point minimum is a good thing and keeps us able to enjoy mule deer. 4 point minimums won't help because a lot of these mule deer will never have more than 3 points. In my hunting area there are more 3 points than 4 points. I see a TON of healthy younger 2 points every year. I passed on a BIG 2X2 with a kicker that made him legal because I wanted him to make it until next season when he should be at the least a 150" 3 point if not a even bigger 4 point. When I was young I remember a lot of 4 and 5 points in this particular area. My father says that the mule deer are definitely not of the same quality as years past, but the number of deer are still their.
IT'S A INTERSTING TOPIC THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED FOR SURE SO OUR KIDS AND GRANDKIDS CAN ALSO ENJOY MULE DEER! I VOTED YES.
Post by: Jpmiller on October 18, 2017, 03:13:43 AM
Washington does not have the quality or quantity of winter range that other areas with successful mule deer populations have. Improving winter range and reducing competition on it would certainly help and that's something we can do something about.
Post by: luckyman on October 18, 2017, 05:55:19 AM
The only way I would support any more restrictions is if they start more aggressive predator control starting with wolves and allowing use of dogs.
Hunt while you still can because the end is near. Thats how I see it. :sry:
Post by: huntnphool on October 18, 2017, 09:35:49 AM
I voted a big No!
The only way I would support any more restrictions is if they start more aggressive predator control starting with wolves and allowing use of dogs.
Hunt while you still can because the end is near. Thats how I see it. :sry:
:chuckle: So in a nutshell, be damned you all, I'm hunting every year until they are all gone.......got it. :tup:
Post by: jstone on October 18, 2017, 09:46:18 AM
Post by: X-Force on October 18, 2017, 09:59:19 AM
Washington is a great state for hunting because of the OTC opportunity.
I could change my vote if there was an actual plan that still provided opportunity, expanded predator harvest (mainly cats and spring bears), provided state wide winter range protection and extirpated whitetails from traditional mule deer areas.
Post by: kellama2001 on October 18, 2017, 05:33:13 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on October 18, 2017, 05:42:59 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on October 18, 2017, 07:04:48 PM
Its sad to see but the introduction of wolves seems more and more like it was mainly to decimate the deer herd and in the long run shut down hunting as a sport.
What makes the wolves in Washington worse than the wolves in Montana Idaho or Wyoming? I don't get the wolf argument.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on October 18, 2017, 07:18:04 PM
They were really bad (still are to some degree) in MT, ID and WY. Then they got some wolf control. Yellowstone elk herd went from 20,000+ elk when wolves arrived and dropped to 5,000 as of a few years ago.Its sad to see but the introduction of wolves seems more and more like it was mainly to decimate the deer herd and in the long run shut down hunting as a sport.
What makes the wolves in Washington worse than the wolves in Montana Idaho or Wyoming? I don't get the wolf argument.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on October 18, 2017, 07:22:24 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 19, 2017, 09:00:47 AM
Are Predators Killing Your Hunting Opportunities
http://idahoforwildlife.com/Charles%20Kay/63-%20Are%20predators%20killing%20your%20hunting%20opportunies%20.pdf
In Washington, Some Mourn The Arrival Of New Fish and Game Director
http://tomremington.com/2015/01/30/in-washington-some-mourn-the-arrival-of-new-fish-and-game-director/
Post by: huntnphool on October 19, 2017, 09:56:03 AM
Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer
Dude, love your passion but can you take your 6 year old videos and links and start your own thread, I'd like to stay on topic. :tup:
Post by: wolfbait on October 19, 2017, 12:13:21 PM
Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer
Dude, love your passion but can you take your 6 year old videos and links and start your own thread, I'd like to stay on topic. :tup:
Kind of figure this is on topic, wolves on top of other predators is the reason for poor deer hunting etc., changing season etc. won't help the predation problem. Everyone seems to be looking for the solution through changed seasons, the links above explain what has/is happening to WA hunting. Some of us covered this quite extensively for several years right here on H-W.
Hunt while you can, because if predator control isn't implemented nothing will change the outcome. :twocents:
Post by: slowhand on October 19, 2017, 12:31:13 PM
Post by: Colville on October 19, 2017, 02:01:35 PM
Post by: hunt2hunt810 on October 19, 2017, 02:33:36 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on October 19, 2017, 06:32:27 PM
Post by: jstone on October 19, 2017, 06:41:21 PM
Post by: bullcanyon on October 19, 2017, 08:07:58 PM
So besides weather I honestly believe the biggest thing that impacts the deer is the lack of common sense management by our wdfw. If they would manage for wildlife instead $$ the deer would be better off.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 19, 2017, 08:45:02 PM
But Washington isn't the only state with wolf predation on deer. I see guys talking about how great Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are for hunting mule deer and they all have wolves and grizzly. Certainly predation has an effect but if it's not a Washington specific issue it must be other things, like winter range.
Try to convince this guy of that!!
Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer
Dude, love your passion but can you take your 6 year old videos and links and start your own thread, I'd like to stay on topic. :tup:
Kind of figure this is on topic, wolves on top of other predators is the reason for poor deer hunting etc., changing season etc. won't help the predation problem. Everyone seems to be looking for the solution through changed seasons, the links above explain what has/is happening to WA hunting. Some of us covered this quite extensively for several years right here on H-W.
Hunt while you can, because if predator control isn't implemented nothing will change the outcome. :twocents:
Like I have already mentioned, NO wolves in the Entiat.....but the herd is hurting.........Must be the invisible wolves SMH
Post by: mfswallace on October 19, 2017, 08:59:21 PM
But Washington isn't the only state with wolf predation on deer. I see guys talking about how great Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are for hunting mule deer and they all have wolves and grizzly. Certainly predation has an effect but if it's not a Washington specific issue it must be other things, like winter range.
Try to convince this guy of that!!Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer
Dude, love your passion but can you take your 6 year old videos and links and start your own thread, I'd like to stay on topic. :tup:
Kind of figure this is on topic, wolves on top of other predators is the reason for poor deer hunting etc., changing season etc. won't help the predation problem. Everyone seems to be looking for the solution through changed seasons, the links above explain what has/is happening to WA hunting. Some of us covered this quite extensively for several years right here on H-W.
Hunt while you can, because if predator control isn't implemented nothing will change the outcome. :twocents:
Like I have already mentioned, NO wolves in the Entiat.....but the herd is hurting.........Must be the invisible wolves SMH
http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,118415.0.html
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 19, 2017, 09:13:55 PM
1. that was 2013, and 1 wolf, 1 time. IIRC same wolf moved on and was spotted and or killed in an entirely different area. (See reply #56 in your quoted thread)
2. This is my backyard and I spend well over 150 days a year there.......you go ahead and believe what you want. I know the truth.
:bash: :bash: :bash:
Post by: wolfbait on October 20, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
But Washington isn't the only state with wolf predation on deer. I see guys talking about how great Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are for hunting mule deer and they all have wolves and grizzly. Certainly predation has an effect but if it's not a Washington specific issue it must be other things, like winter range.
Try to convince this guy of that!!Yellowstone is Dead Theatrical Trailer
Dude, love your passion but can you take your 6 year old videos and links and start your own thread, I'd like to stay on topic. :tup:
Kind of figure this is on topic, wolves on top of other predators is the reason for poor deer hunting etc., changing season etc. won't help the predation problem. Everyone seems to be looking for the solution through changed seasons, the links above explain what has/is happening to WA hunting. Some of us covered this quite extensively for several years right here on H-W.
Hunt while you can, because if predator control isn't implemented nothing will change the outcome. :twocents:
Like I have already mentioned, NO wolves in the Entiat.....but the herd is hurting.........Must be the invisible wolves SMH
Wolves move deer, we have found areas that when the wolves move into an area the deer move out. I have been in drainages that have always carried deer, there will be wolf tracks but very few if any deer.
I bet WDF&Wolves are having a good laugh at some of the folks on H-W, I think the wolf plan states that seasons will be cut when wolves start impacting the game herds. I wonder how many deer we will have left when that determination rolls around?
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C03E3D7163EE033A25755C2A9639C946697D6CF
Post by: sneakyjake on October 20, 2017, 07:05:37 PM
Post by: deerlick on October 21, 2017, 09:30:25 AM
Post by: bigmacc on October 25, 2017, 02:36:08 PM
Any suggestions then?
After getting back I think I will stick with going with the odd/even system(based on the last digit of your wild ID). I will only speak of the Methow herd but I think other traditional muley herd areas are seeing the same. Hunter numbers were the most I have seen, predators were the most I have seen and deer numbers were the worst I have seen. My family celebrated our 100 year anniversary of hunting the Methow(started in 1917) and boy have there been changes! There are still a very few family and friends alive that tell stories going back into the late 1930,s and the 1940,s that made the trip to just sit around the fire and tell tales. We heard stories of respect for other hunters, staying out of another hunters way and lending a hand to a stranger. Stories of seeing another hunter and immediately turning and going the other way, stumbling on to a hunter in a spot , raising your hand in a salute and mouthing the word "sorry" then slowly, quietly getting the h@@@ out of their space. Stories of 2week seasons taking in 3 weekends, some liked the first part because of more "camping type" weather where the local deer were mostly taken(and the local deer herds were robust up until about 10 to 15 years ago) and then they would go home and the second wave of hunters would role in, folks with tents, wood stoves and chains for their rigs, they hunted the migrators because by the 2nd week(usually ran through the 1st week of Nov.) the big fellas were moving in with a mission. We heard stories of bountys on coyotes seeing a bear or cougar was very rare let alone killing one. Stories of real FISH and GAME agents visiting our camp for hours, sitting by the fire and listening to stories my dad and great grandparents would tell of migration routes, staging areas, and fawning areas that they knew of. A great and respected biologist (back in the 1970,s and 80,s that I'm sure some on here know of)that my dad and I convinced to start gateing roads so people couldn't park motorhomes and trailers in migration routes. Stories of seeing 50 to 100 deer per day and maybe 8 or 10 hunters in a week(now you can reverse those numbers, 50 to 100 hunters and 8 to 10 deer :chuckle:). I have told these stories before, have thrown out ideas, have mentioned the "good old days" even got brave and posted some pics of our family history years ago but the bottom line is we have a history with these deer, this area and we care. I think all quality tags and doe tags should be done away with in the Methow, I think predators need to be controlled(if the state can't do it then we as hunters need to do it legally and ethicaly,) kill some yotes, buy a bear tag and a cougar tag. Lets face it(at least in the Methow) more and more land is being posted, more anti-hunting folks are moving there and for some reason(since the 2015 slaughter) more and more people are flocking there to hunt, I can't tell you how many folks I chatted with said it was the first time they hunted there and "heard" there were deer everywhere, some had hunted other parts of the state but "heard" there were deer behind every bush, they "heard" a lot of different things that they described to me that I haven't seen in over 20 years and even then most of what they "heard" was over-eggagerated and I know we will never see again even close to it in the Methow, one guy told me" I thought it was supposed to be easy to get a buck here, heck I haven't seen a doe in 4 days". My suggestion I guess,in a nut shell would be a 10 day season ending Oct 31st, no late permits, odd-even system so you are hunting it(Methow)every other year hopefully cutting hunting pressure in half. I know some will say that the Fish and Wildlife dept(they are no longer the GAME dept in my book) won't want loose money because of limiting tags, then double the cost of a tag and lic. for hunting the Methow, I would gladly pay double to hunt it on my year to hunt if it made a difference in quantity and quality of this herd. The next idea would be drawing 200 to 300 permits per unit from the Canadian border to Pateros and maybe getting drawn every 4,5 or 6 years, I myself like the every other year idea. :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on October 25, 2017, 10:40:14 PM
Any suggestions then?
After getting back I think I will stick with going with the odd/even system(based on the last digit of your wild ID). I will only speak of the Methow herd but I think other traditional muley herd areas are seeing the same. Hunter numbers were the most I have seen, predators were the most I have seen and deer numbers were the worst I have seen. My family celebrated our 100 year anniversary of hunting the Methow(started in 1917) and boy have there been changes! There are still a very few family and friends alive that tell stories going back into the late 1930,s and the 1940,s that made the trip to just sit around the fire and tell tales. We heard stories of respect for other hunters, staying out of another hunters way and lending a hand to a stranger. Stories of seeing another hunter and immediately turning and going the other way, stumbling on to a hunter in a spot , raising your hand in a salute and mouthing the word "sorry" then slowly, quietly getting the h@@@ out of their space. Stories of 2week seasons taking in 3 weekends, some liked the first part because of more "camping type" weather where the local deer were mostly taken(and the local deer herds were robust up until about 10 to 15 years ago) and then they would go home and the second wave of hunters would role in, folks with tents, wood stoves and chains for their rigs, they hunted the migrators because by the 2nd week(usually ran through the 1st week of Nov.) the big fellas were moving in with a mission. We heard stories of bountys on coyotes seeing a bear or cougar was very rare let alone killing one. Stories of real FISH and GAME agents visiting our camp for hours, sitting by the fire and listening to stories my dad and great grandparents would tell of migration routes, staging areas, and fawning areas that they knew of. A great and respected biologist (back in the 1970,s and 80,s that I'm sure some on here know of)that my dad and I convinced to start gateing roads so people couldn't park motorhomes and trailers in migration routes. Stories of seeing 50 to 100 deer per day and maybe 8 or 10 hunters in a week(now you can reverse those numbers, 50 to 100 hunters and 8 to 10 deer :chuckle:). I have told these stories before, have thrown out ideas, have mentioned the "good old days" even got brave and posted some pics of our family history years ago but the bottom line is we have a history with these deer, this area and we care. I think all quality tags and doe tags should be done away with in the Methow, I think predators need to be controlled(if the state can't do it then we as hunters need to do it legally and ethicaly,) kill some yotes, buy a bear tag and a cougar tag. Lets face it(at least in the Methow) more and more land is being posted, more anti-hunting folks are moving there and for some reason(since the 2015 slaughter) more and more people are flocking there to hunt, I can't tell you how many folks I chatted with said it was the first time they hunted there and "heard" there were deer everywhere, some had hunted other parts of the state but "heard" there were deer behind every bush, they "heard" a lot of different things that they described to me that I haven't seen in over 20 years and even then most of what they "heard" was over-eggagerated and I know we will never see again even close to it in the Methow, one guy told me" I thought it was supposed to be easy to get a buck here, heck I haven't seen a doe in 4 days". My suggestion I guess,in a nut shell would be a 10 day season ending Oct 31st, no late permits, odd-even system so you are hunting it(Methow)every other year hopefully cutting hunting pressure in half. I know some will say that the Fish and Wildlife dept(they are no longer the GAME dept in my book) won't want loose money because of limiting tags, then double the cost of a tag and lic. for hunting the Methow, I would gladly pay double to hunt it on my year to hunt if it made a difference in quantity and quality of this herd. The next idea would be drawing 200 to 300 permits per unit from the Canadian border to Pateros and maybe getting drawn every 4,5 or 6 years, I myself like the every other year idea. :twocents:
:brew: I'd be honored to buy you a beer one of these days and chat about those times! :tup:
Post by: slowhand on October 26, 2017, 11:15:54 AM
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2017, 11:36:09 AM
Any suggestions then?
After getting back I think I will stick with going with the odd/even system(based on the last digit of your wild ID). I will only speak of the Methow herd but I think other traditional muley herd areas are seeing the same. Hunter numbers were the most I have seen, predators were the most I have seen and deer numbers were the worst I have seen. My family celebrated our 100 year anniversary of hunting the Methow(started in 1917) and boy have there been changes! There are still a very few family and friends alive that tell stories going back into the late 1930,s and the 1940,s that made the trip to just sit around the fire and tell tales. We heard stories of respect for other hunters, staying out of another hunters way and lending a hand to a stranger. Stories of seeing another hunter and immediately turning and going the other way, stumbling on to a hunter in a spot , raising your hand in a salute and mouthing the word "sorry" then slowly, quietly getting the h@@@ out of their space. Stories of 2week seasons taking in 3 weekends, some liked the first part because of more "camping type" weather where the local deer were mostly taken(and the local deer herds were robust up until about 10 to 15 years ago) and then they would go home and the second wave of hunters would role in, folks with tents, wood stoves and chains for their rigs, they hunted the migrators because by the 2nd week(usually ran through the 1st week of Nov.) the big fellas were moving in with a mission. We heard stories of bountys on coyotes seeing a bear or cougar was very rare let alone killing one. Stories of real FISH and GAME agents visiting our camp for hours, sitting by the fire and listening to stories my dad and great grandparents would tell of migration routes, staging areas, and fawning areas that they knew of. A great and respected biologist (back in the 1970,s and 80,s that I'm sure some on here know of)that my dad and I convinced to start gateing roads so people couldn't park motorhomes and trailers in migration routes. Stories of seeing 50 to 100 deer per day and maybe 8 or 10 hunters in a week(now you can reverse those numbers, 50 to 100 hunters and 8 to 10 deer :chuckle:). I have told these stories before, have thrown out ideas, have mentioned the "good old days" even got brave and posted some pics of our family history years ago but the bottom line is we have a history with these deer, this area and we care. I think all quality tags and doe tags should be done away with in the Methow, I think predators need to be controlled(if the state can't do it then we as hunters need to do it legally and ethicaly,) kill some yotes, buy a bear tag and a cougar tag. Lets face it(at least in the Methow) more and more land is being posted, more anti-hunting folks are moving there and for some reason(since the 2015 slaughter) more and more people are flocking there to hunt, I can't tell you how many folks I chatted with said it was the first time they hunted there and "heard" there were deer everywhere, some had hunted other parts of the state but "heard" there were deer behind every bush, they "heard" a lot of different things that they described to me that I haven't seen in over 20 years and even then most of what they "heard" was over-eggagerated and I know we will never see again even close to it in the Methow, one guy told me" I thought it was supposed to be easy to get a buck here, heck I haven't seen a doe in 4 days". My suggestion I guess,in a nut shell would be a 10 day season ending Oct 31st, no late permits, odd-even system so you are hunting it(Methow)every other year hopefully cutting hunting pressure in half. I know some will say that the Fish and Wildlife dept(they are no longer the GAME dept in my book) won't want loose money because of limiting tags, then double the cost of a tag and lic. for hunting the Methow, I would gladly pay double to hunt it on my year to hunt if it made a difference in quantity and quality of this herd. The next idea would be drawing 200 to 300 permits per unit from the Canadian border to Pateros and maybe getting drawn every 4,5 or 6 years, I myself like the every other year idea. :twocents:
:brew: I'd be honored to buy you a beer one of these days and chat about those times! :tup:
Would love to do that one day phool :tup:
Post by: baldopepper on October 26, 2017, 12:03:28 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2017, 05:48:41 PM
I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
Post by: NRA4LIFE on October 26, 2017, 06:45:15 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 26, 2017, 07:05:28 PM
I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Post by: predatorpro on October 26, 2017, 07:29:16 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2017, 07:31:35 PM
Post by: bigmacc on October 26, 2017, 08:10:04 PM
That’s one hell of an attitude :rolleyes:
:yeah:...boy that came out of the cheap seats :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on October 26, 2017, 08:10:52 PM
I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Not so my friend, I saw more deer this year than last year in my area, and it’s all migrating deer I hunt. But I do agree the Mule deer are in a decline in Washington. Just hope for mild winters, and some predator relief. :twocents:
But the moose numbers were really low compared to previous years, and wolf sign ways way up. :bash:
Post by: predatorpro on October 26, 2017, 08:38:53 PM
That’s one hell of an attitude :rolleyes:just being honest....lol
Post by: swanny on October 26, 2017, 08:53:14 PM
This year, in the farmlands we hunt, I saw 3 of the biggest deer I've ever seen, one was taken by a member in our party. Winter must not have been to bad. While I never have been a trophy hunter, the larger more mature bucks are the way things should be. Knowing these guys are able to breed year in and year out benefits the herd, the hunters, and puts just that much more meat in my freezer. I loved seeing these big bucks around, made me think there was hope of something other than the smaller 3pt basket type bucks we tend to get. Generally our group goes 3 for 5 at least, this year it was 1 for 5, although it should have been 2 for 5, but that's a story in ethics for another time.
Now, anyone have a late blacktail spot they want to share with me? :tung: :chuckle:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on October 26, 2017, 09:15:00 PM
That’s one hell of an attitude :rolleyes:just being honest....lol
Well at least your honest :dunno:........I bet your caca don't stink either.
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Post by: lemondog on October 26, 2017, 09:46:58 PM
Post by: wolfbait on October 27, 2017, 02:59:18 PM
I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Not so my friend, I saw more deer this year than last year in my area, and it’s all migrating deer I hunt. But I do agree the Mule deer are in a decline in Washington. Just hope for mild winters, and some predator relief. :twocents:
But the moose numbers were really low compared to previous years, and wolf sign ways way up. :bash:
I wish you were right, I truly do.
But I don't see that happening, what I see is the town deer and farm land mulies, plus the white tail being the last of the deer to survive mainly because they don't migrate, they live in back yards etc. where they have protection from the wolves and other predators.
I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end. Sad deal.
Post by: idahohuntr on October 27, 2017, 04:21:57 PM
You have incorrectly predicted so many "ends" I have lost count.I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Not so my friend, I saw more deer this year than last year in my area, and it’s all migrating deer I hunt. But I do agree the Mule deer are in a decline in Washington. Just hope for mild winters, and some predator relief. :twocents:
But the moose numbers were really low compared to previous years, and wolf sign ways way up. :bash:
I wish you were right, I truly do.
But I don't see that happening, what I see is the town deer and farm land mulies, plus the white tail being the last of the deer to survive mainly because they don't migrate, they live in back yards etc. where they have protection from the wolves and other predators.
I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end. Sad deal.
Post by: huntnphool on October 27, 2017, 07:28:40 PM
You have incorrectly predicted so many "ends" I have lost count.I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Not so my friend, I saw more deer this year than last year in my area, and it’s all migrating deer I hunt. But I do agree the Mule deer are in a decline in Washington. Just hope for mild winters, and some predator relief. :twocents:
But the moose numbers were really low compared to previous years, and wolf sign ways way up. :bash:
I wish you were right, I truly do.
But I don't see that happening, what I see is the town deer and farm land mulies, plus the white tail being the last of the deer to survive mainly because they don't migrate, they live in back yards etc. where they have protection from the wolves and other predators.
I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end. Sad deal.
:chuckle:
Post by: Jpmiller on October 29, 2017, 09:46:38 PM
I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Not so my friend, I saw more deer this year than last year in my area, and it’s all migrating deer I hunt. But I do agree the Mule deer are in a decline in Washington. Just hope for mild winters, and some predator relief. :twocents:
But the moose numbers were really low compared to previous years, and wolf sign ways way up. :bash:
I wish you were right, I truly do.
But I don't see that happening, what I see is the town deer and farm land mulies, plus the white tail being the last of the deer to survive mainly because they don't migrate, they live in back yards etc. where they have protection from the wolves and other predators.
I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end. Sad deal.
Could it be you are only seeing deer there because that's where you're looking? Up elk hunting this weekend I think I cut my first wolf track and also saw my normal number of mule deer and elk. I didn't see any backyard deer or whitetails.
Now that's not the story all across the state but it's what I saw.
Post by: bigmacc on October 30, 2017, 09:07:39 AM
Post by: jrawl on October 30, 2017, 10:08:14 AM
Post by: wolfbait on October 30, 2017, 10:31:19 AM
I think one of the biggest problems is how well the deer have learned to read (lol) Mule deer around my place are doing quite well, but they are very careful to stay behind the "no hunting " or "no trespassing" signs. Seriously, the amount of property that has been put off limits either due to straight no trespassing or "leased for hunting" has grown tremendously over the past few years. This privatization has served to squeeze more hunters into the open ground and provided a safe sanctuary for the deer. I could have taken a couple of pictures during the hunt this year of nice bucks standing right behind "no hunting" signs, almost seemed like they were mocking the hunters that went by. Kind of off the thread topic, but I see this loss of ground as becoming as big a problem as the diminishing herds. Around us the herd is doing well, but does'nt do much good if you can't get at em. Seems more and more across the west the only herds that are doing well are those that are located near or in large tracks of off limit ground. (of course the predators can't read as well as the deer, so it doesn't solve that problem)
As far as the Methow goes even the local deer herd is a mere shadow of what it once was, many have said including myself that it was nothing to see a hundred or more deer in all the fields all up and down the valley in August and September, heck all summer for that matter. Yes more and more land is being posted, fenced, habitat is shrinking with the influx of more and more people, is this the cause of the destruction of this once strong and healthy herd?...its a contributor for sure but there is a lot more factors that have devastated this herd I,m afraid. Those tracts of posted land, private property that you mentioned are the only deer some folks seen over there this year, I talked to many that spent the whole season over there and the only deer they seen were the town deer and the yard pets, and their numbers are even in the toilet, a real shame.... :twocents:
For the last ten years or so there have been more deer bedding down next to rural homes etc., the reason is they have less fear of people then they do the predators. There would be far fewer deer if they did not have this protection against the predators.
Early summer when the whitetail does were having fawns, on two separate occasions we ran a wolf off, that was after the fawn/fawns. Talk to locals and they will tell you that seeing wolves is no big deal anymore, and then ask around about all the cougar sightings.
I know of four nice bucks that were taken during modern rifle that were town bucks. Those who claim because of homes there are less deer is false, in actuality it is just the opposite.
I think we have seen the last of migrating deer, there just isn't any left to migrate.
Not so my friend, I saw more deer this year than last year in my area, and it’s all migrating deer I hunt. But I do agree the Mule deer are in a decline in Washington. Just hope for mild winters, and some predator relief. :twocents:
But the moose numbers were really low compared to previous years, and wolf sign ways way up. :bash:
I wish you were right, I truly do.
But I don't see that happening, what I see is the town deer and farm land mulies, plus the white tail being the last of the deer to survive mainly because they don't migrate, they live in back yards etc. where they have protection from the wolves and other predators.
I believe we are now seeing the beginning of the end. Sad deal.
Could it be you are only seeing deer there because that's where you're looking? Up elk hunting this weekend I think I cut my first wolf track and also saw my normal number of mule deer and elk. I didn't see any backyard deer or whitetails.
Now that's not the story all across the state but it's what I saw.
I think the Methow is an example of what the rest of the state will look like if strict predator control is not implemented. Look at the Yellowstone and Lolo elk herd as an example.
You might not see it where you hunt now, but if wolves are hitting the herds the outcome will be the same. :twocents:
Post by: bigmacc on November 02, 2017, 05:26:35 PM
I say the wdfw opens hound hunting back up for bear and cougar because really how many people are gonna be able to sneak on a cat or a bear that is destined to kill and survive so I say let the hounds run first
I wish it was that simple, but its a great thought :tup:
Post by: huntnphool on November 02, 2017, 07:32:47 PM
Post by: dmoua on November 05, 2017, 02:32:45 PM
I say the wdfw opens hound hunting back up for bear and cougar because really how many people are gonna be able to sneak on a cat or a bear that is destined to kill and survive so I say let the hounds run first
For Cougar maybe but I don't see the point in using hounds for bear. I've been successful almost every year when actually putting in the time to hunt Black bears.
Post by: TylerMulie on November 06, 2017, 06:54:09 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 01, 2017, 08:19:22 PM
Post by: hunter399 on December 01, 2017, 08:26:02 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 01, 2017, 08:33:43 PM
I voted no when first started,without predator mangement,it won't help ,we need both.I just don't like permit system ,it's a cash cow for wdfw .All we need is to reward there mismangement with more money to piss to the wind. More regs,more predator mangement,more otc tags. :twocents:
Herds be damned huh? That's a great attitude.
Since WDFW won't do their job and allow more predator control, you're okay with wiping out what's left..........another brilliant post! :bash:
Post by: hunter399 on December 01, 2017, 08:43:28 PM
I voted no when first started,without predator mangement,it won't help ,we need both.I just don't like permit system ,it's a cash cow for wdfw .All we need is to reward there mismangement with more money to piss to the wind. More regs,more predator mangement,more otc tags. :twocents:
Herds be damned huh? That's a great attitude.
Since WDFW won't do their job and allow more predator control, you're okay with wiping out what's left..........another brilliant post! :bash:
So what's your life changeing plan ?
Permits will only help so much,without predator mangement.
Why do you think it has not gone permit already ,cause wdfw will let it get wiped out to sell as many otc,before the permit starts.
When it comes to management of wildlife there's a bill to pay and I already give them enough money.
Post by: bigmacc on December 01, 2017, 08:48:08 PM
Post by: huntnphool on December 01, 2017, 08:51:58 PM
I voted no when first started,without predator mangement,it won't help ,we need both.I just don't like permit system ,it's a cash cow for wdfw .All we need is to reward there mismangement with more money to piss to the wind. More regs,more predator mangement,more otc tags. :twocents:
Herds be damned huh? That's a great attitude.
Since WDFW won't do their job and allow more predator control, you're okay with wiping out what's left..........another brilliant post! :bash:
So what's your life changeing plan ?
Permits will only help so much,without predator mangement.
Why do you think it has not gone permit already ,cause wdfw will let it get wiped out to sell as many otc,before the permit starts.
When it comes to management of wildlife there's a bill to pay and I already give them enough money.
How about you point out the post where I suggested paying more money for less opportunity.
Your posts show your selfish attitude, unfortunately it's shared by several members on this site. You admit that a permit system would help, but you are not for it unless it's combined with WDFW pulling their heads out of their collective ars's and increasing predator harvest.
In a nutshell, you once again made my previous point.......the herds be damned unless you get what you want........we all got it.. :tup:
Post by: Oh Mah on December 01, 2017, 09:07:17 PM
There are a few things that could be done we all agree on that.Some things have not even been brought up.We need real transparency in order to give real helpful input on this subject.
How many non resident tags are sold/success rate?
How many animals do we really have/male female ratio?
What is working with true stats in other states?
What is not working with true stats from other states.
What can be done to come to some kind of fair agreement between non native and native hunters in this state and others?
Post by: hunter399 on December 01, 2017, 09:16:54 PM
So how many mule deer permits for the whole state?I voted no when first started,without predator mangement,it won't help ,we need both.I just don't like permit system ,it's a cash cow for wdfw .All we need is to reward there mismangement with more money to piss to the wind. More regs,more predator mangement,more otc tags. :twocents:
Herds be damned huh? That's a great attitude.
Since WDFW won't do their job and allow more predator control, you're okay with wiping out what's left..........another brilliant post! :bash:
So what's your life changeing plan ?
Permits will only help so much,without predator mangement.
Why do you think it has not gone permit already ,cause wdfw will let it get wiped out to sell as many otc,before the permit starts.
When it comes to management of wildlife there's a bill to pay and I already give them enough money.
How about you point out the post where I suggested paying more money for less opportunity.
Your posts show your selfish attitude, unfortunately it's shared by several members on this site. You admit that a permit system would help, but you are not for it unless it's combined with WDFW pulling their heads out of their collective ars's and increasing predator harvest.
In a nutshell, you once again made my previous point.......the herds be damned unless you get what you want........we all got it.. :tup:
Maybe I'm not hunting muley,can I buy whitetail only tag.
What about all that money from last minute tag buyers?
What if only 500 permits are you gonna be happy and buy a tag.
What if the tag now cost 150 dollars cause we gotta make up for money lost with no otc.
Answer some of these and maybe I'm with the permit system.
I may have a selfish attitude,but you know who's more selfish wdfw,all you that voted yes ,permits is good idea,but you might find yourself not liking the fine print that will come with permits. :twocents:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 01, 2017, 11:07:53 PM
I voted no, and am sticking with it.........until I see a comprehensive plan.
There are multiple issues affecting the MD herds, addressing 1 or 2 of them (doe harvest/ every other year hunting) etc. is not the fixall IMO.
I believe the vast majority of these issues (wolves is not one of them) can be achieved with a bit of coming together from all sides/positions of each issue. If all sides are willing to give a little, I feel that all sides can get a bit of what will make them happy, and more importantly, will benefit the herds in the long run.
I have what I believe is a well thought out plan, but it is still bouncing around in my head, I work 2 jobs and am trying to find the time to get it all compiled on paper.
Here are a couple of glimpses;
Some do not want to give up multi permits. They need to go bye bye, too much additional pressure.
Reduce time afield for all user groups. Allows all an opportunity to hunt, but takes away additional pressure/harvest.
Taking pressure off 1 herd (ie Methow) will only put more pressure on others (robbing Peter to pay Paul.) :bash:
Reduce Late permit quotas. Cant keep taking out the good breeders
Stopping all antlerless(doe) hunts will only serve to overpopulate holding capacities of limited habitat.
That is only a very small portion of issues that need to be addressed, (and that are still in my head) :chuckle:
Post by: hunter399 on December 02, 2017, 09:13:25 AM
Examples what can happen with permit is way out there.
They might start charging for each sub species,blacktail tag,whitetail tag ,muledeer permit,mule deer tag.There already talking about making people choose which side of state there hunting for deer,choose which tag your buying solves that.
Let's say permits for mule deer starts ,few years they see how much money they lost , then its back the way it is now.few years of conservation,for one good hunting season Back where we are now.
Are you ready for mule deer to be like moose permits , you might be lucky to hunt mule deer before your dead.
Then there's cost of permits,cost of tag,how many tags,and if numbers are not set right it's not gonna help.
Now you have a lot of pressure on whitetail, from everybody that didn't draw mule deer tags how does that effect other species of deer.And quality of hunt,and do you lose money from hunters not buying tags few years down the road.
Wdfw does a good job at setting seasons,to keep hunters happy enough to buy tag , but may have to look at other options to help mule deer more.I'm more than willing to antler point regs ,slash a few days off season,no doe harvest,there has to be solution,and keep otc,if that's selfish then it is.
Post by: JLS on December 02, 2017, 10:04:41 AM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bigmacc on December 02, 2017, 10:28:41 AM
Post by: rosscrazyelk on December 03, 2017, 12:29:03 PM
I used to be a No way in hell are you taking my yearly opportunity away from me kinda guy.
I have prodominately been a archery guy for deer and take my niece out for modern season and the past few years have really opened my eyes at what's going on. Also after reading articles in other states and research stories. We definitely need to change the way we do things before there is nothing to hunt.
Post by: Ironhead on December 03, 2017, 01:06:43 PM
What is it going to take for you to realize that the Mule Deer in Washington State are in serious trouble and that we need to change from the status quo.
I am embarrassed by this mentality in our state. Go hunt any other Western State(except CA) and see what descent Deer hunting is like. It is night and day from Washington.
The 139 people that said no change, should be ashamed, that their opportunity to Mule Deer hunt in Washington every year is more important than the over all health of the Herd.
I thought hunters were conservationists, not these 139 people.
Post by: trophyhunt on December 03, 2017, 02:44:25 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on December 03, 2017, 03:04:18 PM
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 03, 2017, 03:13:26 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 03, 2017, 04:15:36 PM
For those that voted NO...
What is it going to take for you to realize that the Mule Deer in Washington State are in serious trouble and that we need to change from the status quo.
I am embarrassed by this mentality in our state. Go hunt any other Western State(except CA) and see what descent Deer hunting is like. It is night and day from Washington.
The 139 people that said no change, should be ashamed, that their opportunity to Mule Deer hunt in Washington every year is more important than the over all health of the Herd.
I thought hunters were conservationists, not these 139 people.
I think more restrictions couldn’t be put in place before a lottery, or every other year senerio system. No doe tags period, archery 3 point min, modern and muzzle loader 4 point minimum etc....
Heck freeze quality tags across the board for 5-7 years.
Post by: hunter399 on December 03, 2017, 04:36:19 PM
For those that voted NO...
What is it going to take for you to realize that the Mule Deer in Washington State are in serious trouble and that we need to change from the status quo.
I am embarrassed by this mentality in our state. Go hunt any other Western State(except CA) and see what descent Deer hunting is like. It is night and day from Washington.
The 139 people that said no change, should be ashamed, that their opportunity to Mule Deer hunt in Washington every year is more important than the over all health of the Herd.
I thought hunters were conservationists, not these 139 people.
The hunters pointing fingers at other hunters,instead of not looking at what's put mule deer in this state in danger,from past ,present,and changing for the future :tup:
They might start charging for each sub species,blacktail tag,whitetail tag ,muledeer permit,mule deer tag.There already talking about making people choose which side of state there hunting for deer,choose which tag your buying solves that.
Let's say permits for mule deer starts ,few years they see how much money they lost , then its back the way it is now.few years of conservation,for one good hunting season Back where we are now.
Are you ready for mule deer to be like moose permits , you might be lucky to hunt mule deer before your dead.
Then there's cost of permits,cost of tag,how many tags,and if numbers are not set right it's not gonna help.
Now you have a lot of pressure on whitetail, from everybody that didn't draw mule deer tags how does that effect other species of deer.And quality of hunt,and do you lose money from hunters not buying tags few years down the road.
So how many mule deer permits for the whole state?
Maybe I'm not hunting muley,can I buy whitetail only tag for less money,since less opportunity.
What about all that money from last minute tag buyers?
What if only 500 permits are you gonna be happy and buy a permit
What if the tag now cost 150 dollars cause we gotta make up for money lost with no otc.
Answer some of these and maybe I'm with the permit system.It's great that people want to help with the permit system,but don't always consider all deer species in a whole, or all wildlife by only helping mule deer you may hurt other wildlife,effect cost of tags,ect.
How about odd/even on who hunts at all for the year ,and conserve all deer species across the board.only problem is wdfw want there money,if theres no money for wdfw,Theres no hunting in our state at all.Everbody that wants permits can't seem to answer the tough questions that come with Permits.Maybe that's why wdfw is pushing so hard for choose which side of the state your hunting for deer,to keep some of the herds of people on there own side of state and save a mule deer. :dunno:
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2017, 07:06:31 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2017, 07:40:27 PM
For those that voted NO...
What is it going to take for you to realize that the Mule Deer in Washington State are in serious trouble and that we need to change from the status quo.
I am embarrassed by this mentality in our state. Go hunt any other Western State(except CA) and see what descent Deer hunting is like. It is night and day from Washington.
The 139 people that said no change, should be ashamed, that their opportunity to Mule Deer hunt in Washington every year is more important than the over all health of the Herd.
I thought hunters were conservationists, not these 139 people.
Have you read the entire thread?
I voted No, and I can assure you that I DO realize our MD are in serious trouble. (others that voted no have echoed this too)
What I am not willing to do, is to jump in head first while not knowing how deep the water is.
Yes, a lot of things need to change, but until I see a well thought out comprehensive plan, I will remain a no vote.
This is the 1st time in my 37 year hunting career that I have not notched a WA deer tag, not for lack of trying.
I voted no, and am sticking with it.........until I see a comprehensive plan.
There are multiple issues affecting the MD herds, addressing 1 or 2 of them (doe harvest/ every other year hunting) etc. is not the fixall IMO.
I believe the vast majority of these issues (wolves is not one of them) can be achieved with a bit of coming together from all sides/positions of each issue. If all sides are willing to give a little, I feel that all sides can get a bit of what will make them happy, and more importantly, will benefit the herds in the long run.
I have what I believe is a well thought out plan, but it is still bouncing around in my head, I work 2 jobs and am trying to find the time to get it all compiled on paper.
Here are a couple of glimpses;
Some do not want to give up multi permits. They need to go bye bye, too much additional pressure.
Reduce time afield for all user groups. Allows all an opportunity to hunt, but takes away additional pressure/harvest.
Taking pressure off 1 herd (ie Methow) will only put more pressure on others (robbing Peter to pay Paul.) :bash:
Reduce Late permit quotas. Cant keep taking out the good breeders
Stopping all antlerless(doe) hunts will only serve to overpopulate holding capacities of limited habitat.
That is only a very small portion of issues that need to be addressed, (and that are still in my head) :chuckle:
Post by: Ironhead on December 03, 2017, 08:05:38 PM
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 03, 2017, 08:10:17 PM
Is it time to push for a new system, draw, alternating year, etc?
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
Much more can be done before shutting down the general season.
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2017, 08:26:43 PM
Is it time to push for a new system, draw, alternating year, etc?Show stats as to why they are in such peril or get off your soap box.
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
how many winter kill?
how many killed by vehicles?
how many killed by cougars?
bobcats?
how many killed by coyotes?
how many killed by bears?
blue tongue?
how many die from defects?
then how many taken by archery?
how many taken by m/l
how many by m/f?
how many in each group are does?
how many are bucks?
east side?
west side?
without these to start you have no argument at all.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 03, 2017, 09:12:52 PM
Is it time to push for a new system, draw, alternating year, etc?
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
Did you kill a mule deer this year?
Post by: bigmacc on December 03, 2017, 09:45:30 PM
Is it time to push for a new system, draw, alternating year, etc?Show stats as to why they are in such peril or get off your soap box.
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
how many winter kill?
how many killed by vehicles?
how many killed by cougars?
bobcats?
how many killed by coyotes?
how many killed by bears?
blue tongue?
how many die from defects?
then how many taken by archery?
how many taken by m/l
how many by m/f?
how many in each group are does?
how many are bucks?
east side?
west side?
without these to start you have no argument at all.
The Methow herd has been cut in half over the years by just about everything you mentioned(from 30k to 40k head to 15k-19k ), killed by more and more vehicles in the valley since the opening of the North cascades Hwy, killed by the influx of more hunting pressure since the opening of the pass, killed by the predator boom(more cougars,yotes, bears and wolves). Bottom line the mule deer head count in that valley has been on a steady decline and is still in a tailspin. All it takes is to spend a few days walking the woods over there and comparing that to the same "stroll" you would have taken 10 or 15 years ago(let alone 40 or 50 years ago like some of us) and thats all it would take to see how far in the crapper that herd is in. All the "stats" add up to one thing, half of the herd has disappeared and they are still leaving us.
Post by: csaaphill on December 03, 2017, 10:33:38 PM
Changes need to be done that's for sure, 3pt minimums needs changed not for good, but for a short time to make 2pt's and smaller wary again like they should be. With what I've heard on the Methow Unit a 4pt minimum would go a long way to help the herds there. Or some other type of compromise to still allow yearly hunting.
If you're thinking on something like Oregon does they do a Controlled hunt draw in all units, but do have some units that have 100% draw odds and you can use that as your second choice so when drawn you get a point, but not convinced that would work in Washington. Hunting each year is the only thing that keeps what numbers we have now and political pull, change that well lose, for peeps will just quit going as they have when regs went form 7-8 pages to more than 50-60 pages we have now.
Most may say yay less people but forget we only have political pull with numbers and $. do away with that and the $ go and antis win. :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on December 03, 2017, 11:13:48 PM
so as others have said cause and effect,we cut back hunting more killed by vehicles causting state and others more money.more food for preditors. etc etc etc.saying 50% is gone dont mean anything.we prob. have 50% less range now than 50 years ago.way more vehicles,more cougars now than we had in the past 20 years. more probs. with things like hoof rot with elk blue tongue with deer pneumonia with sheep etc etc etc. simply said there is no quick off the hip fix.least of all cutting oppurtunity to stop wasting on the hi way,burning in fires dying in the winter bla bla bla.so dont poke fun and ridicule on presumptions of a fix. not pointed at any one member. :tup:Is it time to push for a new system, draw, alternating year, etc?Show stats as to why they are in such peril or get off your soap box.
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
how many winter kill?
how many killed by vehicles?
how many killed by cougars?
bobcats?
how many killed by coyotes?
how many killed by bears?
blue tongue?
how many die from defects?
then how many taken by archery?
how many taken by m/l
how many by m/f?
how many in each group are does?
how many are bucks?
east side?
west side?
without these to start you have no argument at all.
The Methow herd has been cut in half over the years by just about everything you mentioned(from 30k to 40k head to 15k-19k ), killed by more and more vehicles in the valley since the opening of the North cascades Hwy, killed by the influx of more hunting pressure since the opening of the pass, killed by the predator boom(more cougars,yotes, bears and wolves). Bottom line the mule deer head count in that valley has been on a steady decline and is still in a tailspin. All it takes is to spend a few days walking the woods over there and comparing that to the same "stroll" you would have taken 10 or 15 years ago(let alone 40 or 50 years ago like some of us) and thats all it would take to see how far in the crapper that herd is in. All the "stats" add up to one thing, half of the herd has disappeared and they are still leaving us.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 04, 2017, 05:52:07 AM
Post by: mdbuck5x5 on December 04, 2017, 07:04:08 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on December 04, 2017, 11:27:08 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on December 04, 2017, 11:58:26 AM
Post by: bigmacc on December 04, 2017, 12:03:40 PM
For those that voted NO...
What is it going to take for you to realize that the Mule Deer in Washington State are in serious trouble and that we need to change from the status quo.
I am embarrassed by this mentality in our state. Go hunt any other Western State(except CA) and see what descent Deer hunting is like. It is night and day from Washington.
The 139 people that said no change, should be ashamed, that their opportunity to Mule Deer hunt in Washington every year is more important than the over all health of the Herd.
I thought hunters were conservationists, not these 139 people.
I think more restrictions couldn’t be put in place before a lottery, or every other year senerio system. No doe tags period, archery 3 point min, modern and muzzle loader 4 point minimum etc....
Heck freeze quality tags across the board for 5-7 years.
I like the idea of no doe tags for 4 to 6 years and only when needed after that, no more quality tags, absolutely :tup:. As far as point restrictions go, stick with the 3 point rule, IMO going to 4 point min. just means we will have 3 points and probably still some 2 points left out to rot :bash:. Heck, having a 2 week season brought back , 3 point min but doing the odd/even(every other year) idea might even work, no doe tags, no late hunts. have the season end on October 31st every year(no later) the amount of hunters would be cut in half because of the every other method and the hunters that are hunting that year will be spread out over 2 weeks, would eliminate the "pumpkin patches", help with escapement and should help the overall herd by not being under pressure for months. The archery guys would be the same, every other year, 2 week season September 1st to the 15th. Yes the predator issues still need to be handled, encroachment and habitat issues also, like I said, its a multi headed snake.... :twocents:
Post by: dmoua on December 04, 2017, 12:21:18 PM
Is it time to push for a new system, draw, alternating year, etc?
If your answer to this is no your part of the problem not the answer!
Did you kill a mule deer this year?
:yeah:
Post by: bigmacc on December 04, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
Are the guys that want a season every other year currently only getting a license every other year? Or are they shooting muley bucks each season?
I,m one of those guys, and yes I buy a hunting license every year because I hunt other animals besides mule deer, I killed a mule deer every year I,ve hunted going back to the 1960,s up until about 10 or 12 years ago, the herds were in good shape, numbers were good and with the exception of a bad winter here or there the herds held there own, about 10 or 12 years ago I started passing, I,ve passed on many legal bucks since but I will always purchase my license and tag because I like to think at least some of my money goes into helping the mule deer I enjoy hunting.
Post by: jstone on December 04, 2017, 01:06:03 PM
Post by: wolfbait on December 04, 2017, 01:09:56 PM
For those that voted NO...
What is it going to take for you to realize that the Mule Deer in Washington State are in serious trouble and that we need to change from the status quo.
I am embarrassed by this mentality in our state. Go hunt any other Western State(except CA) and see what descent Deer hunting is like. It is night and day from Washington.
The 139 people that said no change, should be ashamed, that their opportunity to Mule Deer hunt in Washington every year is more important than the over all health of the Herd.
I thought hunters were conservationists, not these 139 people.
I think more restrictions couldn’t be put in place before a lottery, or every other year senerio system. No doe tags period, archery 3 point min, modern and muzzle loader 4 point minimum etc....
Heck freeze quality tags across the board for 5-7 years.
I like the idea of no doe tags for 4 to 6 years and only when needed after that, no more quality tags, absolutely :tup:. As far as point restrictions go, stick with the 3 point rule, IMO going to 4 point min. just means we will have 3 points and probably still some 2 points left out to rot :bash:. Heck, having a 2 week season brought back , 3 point min but doing the odd/even(every other year) idea might even work, no doe tags, no late hunts. have the season end on October 31st every year(no later) the amount of hunters would be cut in half because of the every other method and the hunters that are hunting that year will be spread out over 2 weeks, would eliminate the "pumpkin patches", help with escapement and should help the overall herd by not being under pressure for months. The archery guys would be the same, every other year, 2 week season September 1st to the 15th. Yes the predator issues still need to be handled, encroachment and habitat issues also, like I said, its a multi headed snake.... :twocents:
I think it is too late, even if you cut deer hunting down to just the general season every other year, the predators are going to keep whats left of the herds in a predator pit. Nothing will change at this stage of the game without strict predator control. :twocents:
I highly doubt WDF&wolves will recognize a need for change until they have no choice in the matter, meaning the public outcry will force change.
Post by: hunt2hunt810 on December 04, 2017, 05:58:17 PM
While everybody wants to jump on the blame the predator train, we need to look at the 2 legged predators over harvesting.
Plus it doesn't help, when DNR does prescribed burning removing potential grazing and hiding habitiat in The Sinlahekin (a highly populated mule deer winter migration area) in November just before snowfall. Smart.
Post by: hunter399 on December 04, 2017, 06:11:22 PM
Post by: bigmacc on December 04, 2017, 06:15:45 PM
IMHO, I'm not sold on the high amounts of animal loss due to predators, just because there isn't much talk or many comments about deer carcasses being found or seen while people are out in the woods. I'm still under the belief that Mule Deer hunting from Sept to Dec. with which ever weapon is rather lengthy, especially with late archery season lining up with Mule Deer rut. The deer are being chased for 4 months of the year. Hunting during the rut not only increases opportunity of successful harvest (bucks are dumb and have one thing on their mind and it's not running from hunters), the mating of bucks and does are interrupted/prevented due to higher interruptions from hunters in pursuit. The bucks are being chased to exhaustion before winter causing possible higher winter kill. I have no scientific proof, but I'm sure there is an effect of what sex of the 'to be' fawns are due to the stress levels of even the does during conception.
While everybody wants to jump on the blame the predator train, we need to look at the 2 legged predators over harvesting.
Plus it doesn't help, when DNR does prescribed burning removing potential grazing and hiding habitiat in The Sinlahekin (a highly populated mule deer winter migration area) in November just before snowfall. Smart.
I,ve posted in other threads that we found over 20 cached cougar kills in a 10 day period between 2 different units in the Methow this year and I totally agree about shutting down all quality late hunts at least in the Methow.
Post by: Oh Mah on December 04, 2017, 06:27:39 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 04, 2017, 06:41:41 PM
I also have posted in several threads that i have seen numerous carcasses in the field from cougar and coyote,Also have stated in other posts that i saw on more than one occasion deer chasing down deer and also elk.
What? Deer chasing down deer, and elk. :o
Post by: Oh Mah on December 04, 2017, 07:14:49 PM
Post by: 2506 on December 04, 2017, 08:06:30 PM
Post by: lemondog on December 04, 2017, 08:19:11 PM
This is the 1st time in my 37 year hunting career that I have not notched a WA deer tag, not for lack of trying.
I voted no, and am sticking with it.........until I see a comprehensive plan.
There are multiple issues affecting the MD herds, addressing 1 or 2 of them (doe harvest/ every other year hunting) etc. is not the fixall IMO.
I believe the vast majority of these issues (wolves is not one of them) can be achieved with a bit of coming together from all sides/positions of each issue. If all sides are willing to give a little, I feel that all sides can get a bit of what will make them happy, and more importantly, will benefit the herds in the long run.
I have what I believe is a well thought out plan, but it is still bouncing around in my head, I work 2 jobs and am trying to find the time to get it all compiled on paper.
Here are a couple of glimpses;
Some do not want to give up multi permits. They need to go bye bye, too much additional pressure.
Reduce time afield for all user groups. Allows all an opportunity to hunt, but takes away additional pressure/harvest.
Taking pressure off 1 herd (ie Methow) will only put more pressure on others (robbing Peter to pay Paul.) :bash:
Reduce Late permit quotas. Cant keep taking out the good breeders
Stopping all antlerless(doe) hunts will only serve to overpopulate holding capacities of limited habitat.
That is only a very small portion of issues that need to be addressed, (and that are still in my head) :chuckle:
Wolves is one of the problems. We just have not seen it yet.....
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 04, 2017, 09:59:41 PM
"I believe the vast majority of these issues can be achieved with a bit of coming together from all sides/positions of each issue.......(wolves is not one of them) that we can get changed
Post by: Salmonstalker on December 05, 2017, 11:55:44 AM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 05, 2017, 12:04:52 PM
I voted Yes. It is time for change. No doe tags, 4 pt minimum (at least for a while), bring back hound hunting for predators, issue tags for wolves, and get the indians in the same fish and game rules we follow. NO MORE SEGREGATION AND SPECIAL PRIVILEGES.
You might as well leave the native rights alone, it ain’t going to change. But I believe they need to have smaller quotas for deer, and elk hunting due to the herds dwindling.
Yes to everything else. :tup:
Post by: huntnphool on December 06, 2017, 02:40:44 PM
http://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/timber-farm-bear-hunts-illegal-humane-society-says/281-497147713
Post by: bigmacc on December 06, 2017, 04:15:45 PM
For those of you that actually think baiting and/or hound use will EVER be allowed in this state again.
http://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/timber-farm-bear-hunts-illegal-humane-society-says/281-497147713
Yep phool, I,m afraid its true, we probably won't see hound hunting again until maulings, attacks and such start to occur :dunno:, and the public demands that something be done and even then who knows :dunno:, bears and cougar have already populated to the point they are showing up in neighborhoods and other higher "people" populated areas and the majority seems to think they are "so cute" and "how cool" etc. etc. etc. :bash:
Post by: huntnphool on December 06, 2017, 11:35:31 PM
For those of you that actually think baiting and/or hound use will EVER be allowed in this state again.
http://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/timber-farm-bear-hunts-illegal-humane-society-says/281-497147713
Yep phool, I,m afraid its true, we probably won't see hound hunting again until maulings, attacks and such start to occur :dunno:, and the public demands that something be done and even then who knows :dunno:, bears and cougar have already populated to the point they are showing up in neighborhoods and other higher "people" populated areas and the majority seems to think they are "so cute" and "how cool" etc. etc. etc. :bash:
Well it doesn't help when the "scientists" spoon feed BS "science" to WDFW, saying the reason we are seeing "neighborhood" interactions is because hunters are killing "too many" cats......and if we are to see less neighborhood interactions, we need to limit harvest and increase numbers......which WDFW based their current plan on. :o
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 07, 2017, 05:35:32 AM
Post by: Ironhead on December 07, 2017, 06:54:35 AM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on December 07, 2017, 01:01:28 PM
Post by: hunter399 on December 07, 2017, 01:10:19 PM
Post by: Special T on December 07, 2017, 04:54:38 PM
I don't see why wdfw can't put a bounty on coyotes and other predators that may be hurting our mule deer,with more of open season on some also other states don't seem to have a problem.If Washington for wildlife can't get a permit to run an online derby for bragging rights in a timely manner... What makes you think a bounty system has a snow cones chance in Hell?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: hunter399 on December 07, 2017, 05:53:49 PM
Just another example of our great state at work,you can thank some of the anti hunting people for wdfw lack of wanting coyote derby. :twocents:I don't see why wdfw can't put a bounty on coyotes and other predators that may be hurting our mule deer,with more of open season on some also other states don't seem to have a problem.If Washington for wildlife can't get a permit to run an online derby for bragging rights in a timely manner... What makes you think a bounty system has a snow cones chance in Hell?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I think this artical is a few years old ,can explain why wdfw might drag there feet on your derby.
http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wdfw-hearing-it-from-both-sides-on-ne-wa-coyote-derby/
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 07, 2017, 06:23:32 PM
Just another example of our great state at work,you can thank some of the anti hunting people for wdfw lack of wanting coyote derby. :twocents:I don't see why wdfw can't put a bounty on coyotes and other predators that may be hurting our mule deer,with more of open season on some also other states don't seem to have a problem.If Washington for wildlife can't get a permit to run an online derby for bragging rights in a timely manner... What makes you think a bounty system has a snow cones chance in Hell?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I think this artical is a few years old ,can explain why wdfw might drag there feet on your derby.
http://nwsportsmanmag.com/wdfw-hearing-it-from-both-sides-on-ne-wa-coyote-derby/
:bash: just go out and kill Em without a derby. :twocents:
Post by: huntnphool on December 07, 2017, 06:26:35 PM
Just another example of our great state at work,you can thank some of the anti hunting people for wdfw lack of wanting coyote derby. :twocents:I don't see why wdfw can't put a bounty on coyotes and other predators that may be hurting our mule deer,with more of open season on some also other states don't seem to have a problem.If Washington for wildlife can't get a permit to run an online derby for bragging rights in a timely manner... What makes you think a bounty system has a snow cones chance in Hell?
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I think this artical is a few years old ,can explain why wdfw might drag there feet on your derby.
:bash: just go out and kill Em without a derby. :twocents:
Genius! :chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on December 07, 2017, 06:41:37 PM
For those of you that actually think baiting and/or hound use will EVER be allowed in this state again.
http://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/timber-farm-bear-hunts-illegal-humane-society-says/281-497147713
Yep phool, I,m afraid its true, we probably won't see hound hunting again until maulings, attacks and such start to occur :dunno:, and the public demands that something be done and even then who knows :dunno:, bears and cougar have already populated to the point they are showing up in neighborhoods and other higher "people" populated areas and the majority seems to think they are "so cute" and "how cool" etc. etc. etc. :bash:
@bigmacc your inbox is full.
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 07, 2017, 06:43:11 PM
Just another example of our great state at work,you can thank some of the anti hunting people for wdfw lack of wanting coyote derby. :twocents:I don't see why wdfw can't put a bounty on coyotes and other predators that may be hurting our mule deer,with more of open season on some also other states don't seem to have a problem.If Washington for wildlife can't get a permit to run an online derby for bragging rights in a timely manner... What makes you think a bounty system has a snow cones chance in Hell?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I think this artical is a few years old ,can explain why wdfw might drag there feet on your derby.
:bash: just go out and kill Em without a derby. :twocents:
Genius! :chuckle:
I know, it’s tough sometimes being so practical, and smart. :chuckle:
Post by: huntnphool on December 07, 2017, 06:45:15 PM
Just another example of our great state at work,you can thank some of the anti hunting people for wdfw lack of wanting coyote derby. :twocents:I don't see why wdfw can't put a bounty on coyotes and other predators that may be hurting our mule deer,with more of open season on some also other states don't seem to have a problem.If Washington for wildlife can't get a permit to run an online derby for bragging rights in a timely manner... What makes you think a bounty system has a snow cones chance in Hell?
I think this artical is a few years old ,can explain why wdfw might drag there feet on your derby.
:bash: just go out and kill Em without a derby. :twocents:
Genius! :chuckle:
I know, it’s tough sometimes being so practical, and smart. :chuckle:
:chuckle:
Post by: bigmacc on December 07, 2017, 07:01:03 PM
For those of you that actually think baiting and/or hound use will EVER be allowed in this state again.
http://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/timber-farm-bear-hunts-illegal-humane-society-says/281-497147713
Yep phool, I,m afraid its true, we probably won't see hound hunting again until maulings, attacks and such start to occur :dunno:, and the public demands that something be done and even then who knows :dunno:, bears and cougar have already populated to the point they are showing up in neighborhoods and other higher "people" populated areas and the majority seems to think they are "so cute" and "how cool" etc. etc. etc. :bash:
@bigmacc your inbox is full.
:tup:
Post by: wolfbait on December 14, 2017, 05:51:47 AM
This is the 1st time in my 37 year hunting career that I have not notched a WA deer tag, not for lack of trying.
I voted no, and am sticking with it.........until I see a comprehensive plan.
There are multiple issues affecting the MD herds, addressing 1 or 2 of them (doe harvest/ every other year hunting) etc. is not the fixall IMO.
I believe the vast majority of these issues (wolves is not one of them) can be achieved with a bit of coming together from all sides/positions of each issue. If all sides are willing to give a little, I feel that all sides can get a bit of what will make them happy, and more importantly, will benefit the herds in the long run.
I have what I believe is a well thought out plan, but it is still bouncing around in my head, I work 2 jobs and am trying to find the time to get it all compiled on paper.
Here are a couple of glimpses;
Some do not want to give up multi permits. They need to go bye bye, too much additional pressure.
Reduce time afield for all user groups. Allows all an opportunity to hunt, but takes away additional pressure/harvest.
Taking pressure off 1 herd (ie Methow) will only put more pressure on others (robbing Peter to pay Paul.) :bash:
Reduce Late permit quotas. Cant keep taking out the good breeders
Stopping all antlerless(doe) hunts will only serve to overpopulate holding capacities of limited habitat.
That is only a very small portion of issues that need to be addressed, (and that are still in my head) :chuckle:
Wolves is one of the problems. We just have not seen it yet.....
Wolves are the number one problem, then cougars, coyotes and spring bears on the fawning grounds.
It's getting to the point that those who "can't see it", won't have a choice.
Post by: bearpaw on December 22, 2017, 08:30:29 AM
Currently there are so many other predators in WA that a reduction of buck or bull hunting by humans is probably not going to cause herds to rebound that much quicker. However, I'm in favor of eliminating doe/cow hunting to help herds rebound because it's commonly known, increase antlerless harvest to reduce herd numbers, reduce antlerless harvest to allow herds to grow.
WDFW cougar harvest objectives are based very conservatively on historic harvest numbers. The problem is that there are probably two to three times as many cougar than there were when hound hunting was open. Therefore to achieve an equal harvest percentage two or three times as many cougar need to be taken than the historic average in WA. Due to low fur prices coyote harvest is down and coyote numbers have grown, bear numbers have grown after hounds and baiting was halted, and wolves have been added to the landscape. There is no way for herds to rebound quickly even if hunters quit hunting bucks and bulls all together.
To rebound herds quicker antlerless harvest should be eliminated and predator numbers need to be reduced! :twocents:
I voted "no". I think eliminating annual buck and bull hunting opportunities will only reduce the number of hunters in Washington and do little to replenish herds.
Post by: Ade on December 24, 2017, 06:40:23 PM
1. Transparency on what our hunting fees are spent on, including a vehicle for hunters to vote on major projects.
2. Proactive forest management instead of reactive increasing habitat and survival rates
3. Allow dogs for bear and cougar
4. Delist wolves
Post by: Mr Mykiss on January 25, 2018, 01:17:15 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on January 25, 2018, 05:38:07 PM