Post by: rosscrazyelk on December 13, 2018, 08:07:39 PM
This was brought up in a conversation with a friend.
I know the sss thing but does it really make a difference?
How did this whole thing happen anyway?
From where I sit it happened by Hollywood, peta, rich people who had an agenda.
It has gotten out of hand. Herds are hurting. After a pretty good growth in moose numbers we are now being asked in the hunting regs to report where we see moose.
Woodland caribou are now extinct in Washington. Yes the were other factors but it really kicked into high gear once the wolves showed up..
So what are we going to do about it?
Money is what it took to bring this problem so in my eyes money is what it is going to take to fix it.
What do I mean by this??
I feel if you hurt the state where it hurts maybe something will happen.
Now I know what I am about to say is sacreligious to some but I think we have to look at the big picture and not instant grattification.
I have no idea how to accomplish it but what if every hunter decided not to buy a hunting or fishing license for a year ?
And publicly let the state know where we stand,
With that big of a loss in revenue do you think it would work?
I am just trying to think of ways to try and fix the situation.
So let's not make this a name calling situation .
Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Post by: syoungs on December 13, 2018, 08:11:17 PM
The problem is mobilizing a large enough force to make it work. I dont know how you would even start going about that.
Post by: HUNTINCOUPLE on December 13, 2018, 08:25:09 PM
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on December 13, 2018, 08:27:20 PM
Post by: Bobvernon2 on December 13, 2018, 09:03:52 PM
Post by: actionshooter on December 13, 2018, 09:31:49 PM
Its the WDFWildlife…. not Fish and GAME.... the sportsman (hunter) is on its way out... As more and more biologist for WDFW are anti hunter (yes its real), the wolf is nothing more than a tool so that populations are controlled without us.
Tin foil hat or not? :)
Post by: cooltimber on December 13, 2018, 10:03:29 PM
We topped the ridge and started glassing ,there they were 2 wolves heading up about 250 yrds..WE just went back to the trk and went to camp.decided to leave after 2 days there.went blktail hunting and we both got buck's[we know this area very well]..
So we decided to just hunt blktail's here and maybe hunt elk in another state..
The state lose's money if you only buy one tag,and give's you an excuse to try another state,im talking about eastern wa elk tag's! Then we are going to write the game dept and say we will no longer hunt elk in this state because of your mismanagement ..so this is one way
Post by: cooltimber on December 13, 2018, 10:09:15 PM
Big Picture...
Its the WDFWildlife…. not Fish and GAME.... the sportsman (hunter) is on its way out... As more and more biologist for WDFW are anti hunter (yes its real), the wolf is nothing more than a tool so that populations are controlled without us.
Tin foil hat or not? :) you are absolutely correct.
Post by: Humptulips on December 13, 2018, 10:34:32 PM
Another idea but more work on your part. F&W allows public comment periods at their meetings. Open for you to say whatever you want first thing in the morning and right after lunch. You have 3 minutes to voice your displeasure. One guy shows up he gets tuned out but what if there was a coordinated effort and every comment period let us say a 50 people showed up. That is 2 1/2 hours of complaining about wolves in the morning and then do it after lunch and the same at the next meeting. Keep it up until there is changes made.
I think that is a protest that would work. Question is can you get enough people to protest. I'm betting no.
Post by: Whitpirate on December 13, 2018, 11:38:56 PM
Big Picture...
Its the WDFWildlife…. not Fish and GAME.... the sportsman (hunter) is on its way out... As more and more biologist for WDFW are anti hunter (yes its real), the wolf is nothing more than a tool so that populations are controlled without us.
Tin foil hat or not? :)
Having attended and commented at the open house with the Director and a bunch of Region 4 staff at Issaquah last night this comment above is spot on. I challenged anti’s to buy a hunt or fish license instead of funding litigation but I was one of 2 pro hunting and existing license holder comments that were countered by 20+ anti and “watchable” wildlife folk. The new director is a water guy from Ecology and says he’s a 30 year hunt and fish but he seemingly doesn’t like McIrvin and the ranchers in general in the East. I got boo’d when asked why we allowed the wolves finish off the woodland caribou herd and had an anti state “they weren’t the cause and that herd wasn’t really viable” to which I replied much like the Southern Resident orca. They want to focus on dam breach, smolt recruitment etc... and when asked why piniped culling wasn’t happening immediately I got a shrug. On a follow up one on one with Director at 9pm he seemed more reasonable but I think his job is more politic than action. And with 20-1 numbers for anti’s we have lost the war.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 14, 2018, 05:06:19 AM
Big Picture...You have to remember WDFW still has the mission statement of: Our Mission
Its the WDFWildlife…. not Fish and GAME.... the sportsman (hunter) is on its way out... As more and more biologist for WDFW are anti hunter (yes its real), the wolf is nothing more than a tool so that populations are controlled without us.
Tin foil hat or not? :)
To preserve, protect and perpetuate fish, wildlife and ecosystems while providing sustainable fish and wildlife recreational and commercial opportunities.
Until that changes we as hunters need to stay on them to make sure they adhere to their mission.
Post by: LongBomb on December 14, 2018, 05:16:20 AM
Post by: RJW on December 14, 2018, 07:00:53 AM
Post by: Jake Dogfish on December 14, 2018, 07:12:18 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 07:42:12 AM
THe last 25 yrs we hunted in the 342 area for elk,every other yr one of us would make a kill.as the yrs have gone by the herd there has dwindled to nil. some local elk are there but real had to find,as some of you know.cow tag's this yr were 25,whereas 3 yrs ago it was 250..Hmmm obvious..we never saw wolves but knew they were the problem.BUT this yr after going into some of the deep and steep where there was always sign,there was none,none.I have to respectfully disagree with you. I've been a life long resident of the wenas. It's very easy to blame wolves for everything but the FACT of the matter is WE are as much to blame as anything. It's quite the coincidence that elk numbers started to drastically dip in the wenis when I started giving out hundreds and hundreds of rifle cow tags on top of hundreds and hundreds of Muzzleloader cow tags, and then add in general late archery, heavy tribal pressure, depredation tags and dont forget the winter of 2016. Pretty sure that may have a bit more to do with lower than average elk numbers than possible wolves in the area. And while elk numbers are at a low vs 5 years ago, historically we still have more elk in Yakima County than we ever have.
We topped the ridge and started glassing ,there they were 2 wolves heading up about 250 yrds..WE just went back to the trk and went to camp.decided to leave after 2 days there.went blktail hunting and we both got buck's[we know this area very well]..
So we decided to just hunt blktail's here and maybe hunt elk in another state..
The state lose's money if you only buy one tag,and give's you an excuse to try another state,im talking about eastern wa elk tag's! Then we are going to write the game dept and say we will no longer hunt elk in this state because of your mismanagement ..so this is one way
WDFW was irresponsible with their tag numbers for a unit that has a rather small number of local animals, as well as the surrounding units that hold the bulk of the yakima PMU numbers. :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on December 14, 2018, 08:06:53 AM
Post by: hunterofelk on December 14, 2018, 08:18:15 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2018, 08:26:50 AM
Department of Fun and Games hands are tied on this problem. This was the Feds big idea. The best we can hope for is to get them delisted so the WDFW can open a hunting season on them to try and control the population.
Yes and no. Wyoming refused to kneel to the USFWS and ID's governor declared an emergency when specific herds were being decimated. Unfortunately, the DFW chose to be more aggressive with its plan than it needed to be, no doubt with a ton of pressure from the Governor, whose pockets are lined with animal nutcase money. This also resulted in an increased presence of nut jobs influencing Wildlife Commission selections and seats on the WAG. It's not that the DFW's hands were tied. It's that they were wide open and extended.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 08:40:15 AM
Give it time Blanchard. There’s a pack establishing in 340 and will no doubt move into 342 shortly. I’m sure that will help contribute to the rest of all the bad decisions made by the WDFWoh I have no misconceptions of the future of the wolf but right now (at least in yakima and kittitas) wolves are literally the bottom of the issues list. Theres a giant hole in the bottom of the bucket and everyone is focusing on the pin hole in the side.
Hunterofelk brought up the biggest elephant in the room :tup:
Post by: pianoman9701 on December 14, 2018, 08:56:32 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 09:09:23 AM
Well, to be fair, this thread is about the wolf problem. That's not to say there aren't other and bigger problems facing our wildlife. But it is one that could be mitigated with the right moves and realistic DFW and Governor's administrations.fair point John. I just get frustrated every time i see an animal just doing what God designed it to do being blamed for MANS mess. I dont like competition for my deer and elk any more than the next guy but to wanna play God by eliminating a species from existence like some do is not an ok thing :twocents:
Fyi, I'm not insinuating that that is what Ross is implying just something that I see quite often on this forum. Sorry for the derail Ross!
Post by: Naches Sportsman on December 14, 2018, 09:13:38 AM
Give it time Blanchard. There’s a pack establishing in 340 and will no doubt move into 342 shortly along with 346,352,356,364,368. I’m sure that will help contribute to the rest of all the bad decisions made by the WDFW
Fixed your error for ya.
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 09:20:17 AM
Well, to be fair, this thread is about the wolf problem. That's not to say there aren't other and bigger problems facing our wildlife. But it is one that could be mitigated with the right moves and realistic DFW and Governor's administrations.fair point John. I just get frustrated every time i see an animal just doing what God designed it to do being blamed for MANS mess. I dont like competition for my deer and elk any more than the next guy but to wanna play God by eliminating a species from existence like some do is not an ok thing :twocents:
Fyi, I'm not insinuating that that is what Ross is implying just something that I see quite often on this forum. Sorry for the derail Ross!
couple of holes in your argument regarding the bolded statement:
1) wolves were already here
2) MAN brought in the wrong wolves
Post by: PlateauNDN on December 14, 2018, 09:23:55 AM
Cough cough
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 09:32:45 AM
read this
https://mcmorris.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/CMRltrtoSecZinke.Wolves.Grizzilies.pdf
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 09:53:43 AM
how are there holes in my statement? Loss of habitat and winter range combined with poaching, tribal hunting, and 6 months of white man killing are having far greater consequences for the deer and Elk populations in Yakima and Kittitas County then the few wolves that are around.Well, to be fair, this thread is about the wolf problem. That's not to say there aren't other and bigger problems facing our wildlife. But it is one that could be mitigated with the right moves and realistic DFW and Governor's administrations.fair point John. I just get frustrated every time i see an animal just doing what God designed it to do being blamed for MANS mess. I dont like competition for my deer and elk any more than the next guy but to wanna play God by eliminating a species from existence like some do is not an ok thing :twocents:
Fyi, I'm not insinuating that that is what Ross is implying just something that I see quite often on this forum. Sorry for the derail Ross!
couple of holes in your argument regarding the bolded statement:
1) wolves were already here
2) MAN brought in the wrong wolves
Your above rebuttle just further proves my argument. MAN screwed it all up. The wolf is just being a wolf. We go out and kill animals but then get pissed at predators for doing THE EXACT SAME THING. Pot meat kettle :twocents:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 10:09:15 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 10:19:49 AM
how are there holes in my statement? Loss of habitat and winter range combined with poaching, tribal hunting, and 6 months of white man killing are having far greater consequences for the deer and Elk populations in Yakima and Kittitas County then the few wolves that are around.Well, to be fair, this thread is about the wolf problem. That's not to say there aren't other and bigger problems facing our wildlife. But it is one that could be mitigated with the right moves and realistic DFW and Governor's administrations.fair point John. I just get frustrated every time i see an animal just doing what God designed it to do being blamed for MANS mess. I dont like competition for my deer and elk any more than the next guy but to wanna play God by eliminating a species from existence like some do is not an ok thing :twocents:
Fyi, I'm not insinuating that that is what Ross is implying just something that I see quite often on this forum. Sorry for the derail Ross!
couple of holes in your argument regarding the bolded statement:
1) wolves were already here
2) MAN brought in the wrong wolves
Your above rebuttle just further proves my argument. MAN screwed it all up. The wolf is just being a wolf. We go out and kill animals but then get pissed at predators for doing THE EXACT SAME THING. Pot meat kettle :twocents:
"regarding the bolded statement"
I did not deny, nor provide rebuttal too, or about, any of your other statements and/or opinions.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
Post by: Special T on December 14, 2018, 10:47:25 AM
Are you involved in a sportsmens club? Do you belong to a Conservation Group? Do they have representation that petitions the state for hunters? Are they working with a coalition of other sportsmen IN THIS STATE? All SCI Wa State Chapters, Inland Northwest Wildlife council, Kittitas feild and stream Club, Tacoma sportsmen club, Washington state Archery Association, Washington Waterfowl Association, Washington state Trappers association, some chapters of the MDF Are working together. Do you belong to one of these organizations? Do you belong to an organization that does not collaborate?
If your goal is to ride this to the bottom i guess you can sit on the side lines. If not you should at a min join and add your name to a group that petitions the state on sportsmen behalf.
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 10:52:01 AM
:sry: but your areas are only just getting started, you have a lot more elk than here in the NE so it'll take a while, eventually you'll have even more wolves than we do.
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 10:59:42 AM
SSS isnt enough... You have to kill 50-70% of wolves in order to MAINTAIN pack size until game numbers drop to the point of equilibrium.
Are you involved in a sportsmens club? Do you belong to a Conservation Group? Do they have representation that petitions the state for hunters? Are they working with a coalition of other sportsmen IN THIS STATE? All SCI Wa State Chapters, Inland Northwest Wildlife council, Kittitas feild and stream Club, Tacoma sportsmen club, Washington state Archery Association, Washington Waterfowl Association, Washington state Trappers association, some chapters of the MDF Are working together. Do you belong to one of these organizations? Do you belong to an organization that does not collaborate?
If your goal is to ride this to the bottom i guess you can sit on the side lines. If not you should at a min join and add your name to a group that petitions the state on sportsmen behalf.
SSS isn't enough, coyote hunting rules 365 day open season won't be enough. Wolves are hard to kill, the only thing hunting them like coyotes is going to do is make them even harder to kill and move them from people areas which is a good thing and also provide some relief for deer/elk. Which is what we see in Yellowstone with Elk being so near people.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 11:14:19 AM
You really should let the NE part of WA be the 'proverbial canary in the gold mine', as these wolves here are the very same wolves that you have there.I know so much of this is hypothetical because it's hard do you have solid numbers on anything but I'd be willing to bet the lack of logging a lot more to do with lower numbers than the wolves. You are absolutely correct that my area will see an increase in wolves. But that just further proves my point the diminishing ungulate populations in my area is not due to wolves and it is due to man and mismanagement.
:sry: but your areas are only just getting started, you have a lot more elk than here in the NE so it'll take a while, eventually you'll have even more wolves than we do.
Mismanagement also includes the endless list of convoluted crap involving wolves in this state.
Wyoming has farmer wolves and we do and they also do not hunt them but they have more elk in that state than ever before. They also have roughly all of the grizzly bears! So if wolves are the Devil Himself, how can this be true?
I've hunted Idaho every single season since 2002 in 17 different gmu's. In that time and in my observations the wolf had a great impact initially but as we have generations of deer and Elk that have grown up with Wolves is far less of an impact numbers are rebounding greatly. I watched a herd of 70 Oak this year within a thousand yards of a Howling Wolf Pack and they hardly lifted their heads. They just went about their evening like they weren't even there. Mother nature will balance things out but we need to better manage our end. And yes that includes shooting wolves. Aggressively. I follow a lot of these wolf dreads but I don't ever comment for this exact reason. Arguing with wolf haters is the exact same as arguing with wolf lovers. It's pure emotion most of the time It's very hard to have a civil conversation where we deal in facts and not just emotions. :twocents: if a person even questions some of the things stated then they are immediately labeled a wolf lover and a liberal tree hugger. People create Facebook groups dedicated to hating an animal for doing nothing more than being an animal. We want to play God and we put animals in some sort of hierarchy were one is worth more than the other. A living breathing thing is a living breathing thing unless......unless it's a rattlesnake! Rattlenakes really are the devil :chuckle:
Post by: ctwiggs1 on December 14, 2018, 11:16:57 AM
There is no doubt that if any part of WA has been impacted by wolves, it's the NE Corner.
And yet...
-We still see "any buck" seasons for rifle up there, and "any deer" for ML and archery.
-We still see "any bull" seasons for rifle up there, and "any elk" for ML and archery.
-I have been killing a boatload of turkeys for the last several years up there, and they just opened up more areas this year to FOUR fall tags.
Is hunting up there different than it was 15 years ago? Sure thing. And it'll be even more different in 15 years from now due to wolves, bears, cougars, HUMANS, fires, etc.
I've read numerous articles from bios stating that wolves tend to cause a ~10 year upset. Massive change in animal numbers and patterns at first, but over 10 years things tend to normalize as ecosystem fixes itself.
I feel for the ranchers, and I hope that we can keep good reimbursement or deterrent plans in place to help them. It would be nice to grant them depredation tags even if they'd want them (I betcha they would).
Overall, after reading quite a number of articles written by actual biologists (rather than the armchair variety), I have a really hard time justifying the elimination of wolves. Like Karl said above... They're literally doing what they have been doing for thousands of years before we showed up. Manage them, sure. Eliminate them? Seems a bit weird at this point.
As for the WDFW meetings - those suck. They do like 4-5 meetings in the middle of the week in areas that are hard to get to during rush hour. They know what they're doing.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on December 14, 2018, 11:18:33 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 11:21:41 AM
My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators. Another point I made and special T reiterated is our lack of involvement as a group in the discussion. I self-admittedly I'm one of those offenders. My goal for this coming year is to attend at least two meetings somewhere in the state. Since Central Washington is a redheaded stepchild of the whole state we are very much left out of the conversation but I'm dedicated to making the drive east or west do you have my voice heard. I challenge all hunting Washington members to make the same commitment.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 11:22:03 AM
@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct. :chuckle:hey man I am not typing all that crap out on my phone! Talk to text for life :chuckle:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 11:25:25 AM
I'll be completely honest: I am losing steam in my anti-wolf rant train.well stated sir :tup:
There is no doubt that if any part of WA has been impacted by wolves, it's the NE Corner.
And yet...
-We still see "any buck" seasons for rifle up there, and "any deer" for ML and archery.
-We still see "any bull" seasons for rifle up there, and "any elk" for ML and archery.
-I have been killing a boatload of turkeys for the last several years up there, and they just opened up more areas this year to FOUR fall tags.
Is hunting up there different than it was 15 years ago? Sure thing. And it'll be even more different in 15 years from now due to wolves, bears, cougars, HUMANS, fires, etc.
I've read numerous articles from bios stating that wolves tend to cause a ~10 year upset. Massive change in animal numbers and patterns at first, but over 10 years things tend to normalize as ecosystem fixes itself.
I feel for the ranchers, and I hope that we can keep good reimbursement or deterrent plans in place to help them. It would be nice to grant them depredation tags even if they'd want them (I betcha they would).
Overall, after reading quite a number of articles written by actual biologists (rather than the armchair variety), I have a really hard time justifying the elimination of wolves. Like Karl said above... They're literally doing what they have been doing for thousands of years before we showed up. Manage them, sure. Eliminate them? Seems a bit weird at this point.
As for the WDFW meetings - those suck. They do like 4-5 meetings in the middle of the week in areas that are hard to get to during rush hour. They know what they're doing.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on December 14, 2018, 11:38:17 AM
@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct. :chuckle:The easiest way to decipher what it means is to read the words and then have your mind listen to the words to hear what he said. It’s a real struggle texting with him too.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on December 14, 2018, 11:39:05 AM
@Karl Blanchard - the most entertaining part of this thread is your auto correct. :chuckle:hey man I am not typing all that crap out on my phone! Talk to text for life :chuckle:
Whatever it takes to maintain healthy Oak herds :tup: :tup: :chuckle:
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 11:41:40 AM
You really should let the NE part of WA be the 'proverbial canary in the gold mine', as these wolves here are the very same wolves that you have there.I know so much of this is hypothetical because it's hard do you have solid numbers on anything but I'd be willing to bet the lack of logging a lot more to do with lower numbers than the wolves. You are absolutely correct that my area will see an increase in wolves. But that just further proves my point the diminishing ungulate populations in my area is not due to wolves and it is due to man and mismanagement.
:sry: but your areas are only just getting started, you have a lot more elk than here in the NE so it'll take a while, eventually you'll have even more wolves than we do.
Mismanagement also includes the endless list of convoluted crap involving wolves in this state.
Wyoming has farmer wolves and we do and they also do not hunt them but they have more elk in that state than ever before. They also have roughly all of the grizzly bears! So if wolves are the Devil Himself, how can this be true?
I've hunted Idaho every single season since 2002 in 17 different gmu's. In that time and in my observations the wolf had a great impact initially but as we have generations of deer and Elk that have grown up with Wolves is far less of an impact numbers are rebounding greatly. I watched a herd of 70 Oak this year within a thousand yards of a Howling Wolf Pack and they hardly lifted their heads. They just went about their evening like they weren't even there. Mother nature will balance things out but we need to better manage our end. And yes that includes shooting wolves. Aggressively. I follow a lot of these wolf dreads but I don't ever comment for this exact reason. Arguing with wolf haters is the exact same as arguing with wolf lovers. It's pure emotion most of the time It's very hard to have a civil conversation where we deal in facts and not just emotions. :twocents: if a person even questions some of the things stated then they are immediately labeled a wolf lover and a liberal tree hugger. People create Facebook groups dedicated to hating an animal for doing nothing more than being an animal. We want to play God and we put animals in some sort of hierarchy were one is worth more than the other. A living breathing thing is a living breathing thing unless......unless it's a rattlesnake! Rattlenakes really are the devil :chuckle:
1) Don't label me a wolf hater. I don't hate any animal, hate is purely reserved for evil humans. Animals are incapable of evil, they just are.
2) Wyoming does aggressive predator control, they have very aggressive state coyote control and run dogs on cats and have robust trapping. To say that WY does not hunt wolves is inaccurate, they've had court battles and pauses in hunting wolves but they have hunted wolves and will continue to hunt wolves in that state. Also, geographically speaking hunting wolves in WY is easier than in WA where you can really stretch the legs on your favorite long range caliber. SSS has been far more effective in WY and ID, in ID the state governor sanctioned SSS. Did you buy your .308 SSS Wolf Pack Raffle? (google it)
I'm not sure why people want to compare ID, WY or MT to WA? We're very different in this state with our much bigger population of people and smaller herds of Elk/Deer but bigger wolf plans and zero management of predators.
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 11:45:35 AM
Once again KF, I very much am not trying to argue specifically with you and I feel we are very much on the same page when it comes to the fact that we need to hunt wolves. I just don't like that the wolf is being blamed for so many things that it shouldn't be blamed for. You initially responded to my comment and we started this back and forth and I did not intent to single you out in my arguments.
My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators. Another point I made and special T reiterated is our lack of involvement as a group in the discussion. I self-admittedly I'm one of those offenders. My goal for this coming year is to attend at least two meetings somewhere in the state. Since Central Washington is a redheaded stepchild of the whole state we are very much left out of the conversation but I'm dedicated to making the drive east or west do you have my voice heard. I challenge all hunting Washington members to make the same commitment.
We aren't far off in our opinions but I feel like you've branded me a wolf hater that thinks all wolves must die and that's far from the truth. I know they're here to stay, the ranchers around me all know that they're here to stay as well.
Literally no one actually thinks there's even a slight hope of eliminating all the wolves, but opinions vary greatly on how many wolves we should have though :chuckle:
Post by: ctwiggs1 on December 14, 2018, 11:50:51 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on December 14, 2018, 11:52:06 AM
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 11:57:18 AM
"My gawd! KF wants to kill them all!! Oh the shock! Ohhh the horror!!!! He's a wolf hater >:( >:( >:( "
No, I don't hate them nor do I want them all killed. I just do not believe that a 24/7 365 hunting season similar to coyote rules will have a big impact on the over all population of wolves in Washington state. They are hard to kill, hard to hunt and in much of Washington's geography they have plenty of places to escape and avoid all those evil hunters with guns.
The positive side of this is that this is the only plan that has even a slight chance of keeping the wolves where the wolves are meant to be, in the remote woods far away from people.
This is the only plan that has a chance of educating wolves "people are bad, livestock is near people, and people are bad"
*IF* my prediction is wrong (very unlikely) and the wolf population is declining below the plans objectives..... then simply reducing the wolf hunt for a few years will allow them to quickly come back up to full population.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 11:58:33 AM
I hunt all the states that you just mentioned every single year (literally all of them annually) for going on two decades so I'm very much aware how different they are than Washington and the different habitats, populations, etc. And while all are uniquely different they still have thriving wolf populations while still maintaining or in lots of cases INCREASING populations of elk (not oaks :chuckle:).
I think you misunderstood what I meant by Wyoming is not hunting wolves. The residents of that state are not buying wolf tags and going out and shooting wolves. Just like the residents of Washington are not. Is the state killing them absolutely. But is that the same thing is having the masses out there hunting them and conditioning them to be scared of any presence man? No it is not.
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 12:02:00 PM
That's your opinion about hate being reserved for evil humans
Yes, it's also my opinion that to hate is to humanize, and I'm far from an animal rights activist that humanizes animals, humanizing animals is giving ammunition to activists.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
accurate :tup:That's your opinion about hate being reserved for evil humans
Yes, it's also my opinion that to hate is to humanize, and I'm far from an animal rights activist that humanizes animals, humanizing animals is giving ammunition to activists.
Post by: WildlifeAssassin on December 14, 2018, 01:16:10 PM
https://elknetwork.com/wdfw-director-weighs-in-on-wolves-wolf-management/ (https://elknetwork.com/wdfw-director-weighs-in-on-wolves-wolf-management/)
Overpopulation of humans is the cause of nearly all problems, 7.67 billion and counting. That said we need to be more aggressive in our balancing of wolf populations. There is too many in the NE, let’s capture the surplus, dump them in the steets of Seattle and let them take care of the homeless heroin addicts. Then the hippies can have their very own Yellowstone in the city.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on December 14, 2018, 01:26:53 PM
Here is the director’s statement on wolvesyes 😂😂😂😂😂
https://elknetwork.com/wdfw-director-weighs-in-on-wolves-wolf-management/ (https://elknetwork.com/wdfw-director-weighs-in-on-wolves-wolf-management/)
Overpopulation of humans is the cause of nearly all problems, 7.67 billion and counting. That said we need to be more aggressive in our balancing of wolf populations. There is too many in the NE, let’s capture the surplus, dump them in the steets of Seattle and let them take care of the homeless heroin addicts. Then the hippies can have their very own Yellowstone in the city.
Post by: wolfbait on December 14, 2018, 06:49:40 PM
Here is the director’s statement on wolves
https://elknetwork.com/wdfw-director-weighs-in-on-wolves-wolf-management/ (https://elknetwork.com/wdfw-director-weighs-in-on-wolves-wolf-management/)
Overpopulation of humans is the cause of nearly all problems, 7.67 billion and counting. That said we need to be more aggressive in our balancing of wolf populations. There is too many in the NE, let’s capture the surplus, dump them in the steets of Seattle and let them take care of the homeless heroin addicts. Then the hippies can have their very own Yellowstone in the city.
Did he ever express any concern for the ungulates? I didn't hear anything.. WDF&Wolves..
Post by: idahohuntr on December 14, 2018, 08:18:18 PM
:yeah:
My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators.
One trend I'm seeing in these wolf threads is guys who hunt multiple areas, states, and species and really get after it have a much more clear perspective on the threats faced by ungulates in the Western US.
Those who hunt one little corner of the world frequently try to extrapolate their observations and they simply lack a real understanding about elk and deer beyond their front porch.
Post by: KFhunter on December 14, 2018, 09:27:21 PM
One trend I'm seeing in these wolf threads is guys who hunt multiple areas, states, and species and really get after it have a much more clear perspective on the threats faced by ungulates in the Western US.
Those who hunt one little corner of the world frequently try to extrapolate their observations and they simply lack a real understanding about elk and deer beyond their front porch.
I guess you'd be the expert Sarah Palin :rolleyes:
I live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room.
and yet still you go to Idaho to hunt, off a family members hayfield. :rolleyes:
Listen, I'm sick of you attacking me, trying to minimize my opinion. You know nothing about me and never will.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 15, 2018, 08:25:17 AM
One trend I'm seeing in these wolf threads is guys who hunt multiple areas, states, and species and really get after it have a much more clear perspective on the threats faced by ungulates in the Western US.
Those who hunt one little corner of the world frequently try to extrapolate their observations and they simply lack a real understanding about elk and deer beyond their front porch.
I guess you'd be the expert Sarah Palin :rolleyes:I live in the blues...watch bulls year round from my living room.
and yet still you go to Idaho to hunt, off a family members hayfield. :rolleyes:
Listen, I'm sick of you attacking me, trying to minimize my opinion. You know nothing about me and never will.
Don't let a measly little liberal fish bio get under your skin. :tup:
Post by: boneaddict on December 15, 2018, 10:08:53 AM
Post by: Special T on December 15, 2018, 11:00:53 AM
Don't pick on him too much, after all, by his definitionc "guys who hunt multiple areas, states, and species and really get after it have a much more clear perspective on the threats faced by ungulates in the Western US." We should be frickin genius! :yeah: :chuckle:As some one whom has proved his chops via photographic evidence that he "gets after it" I'm always more curious to hear what Bone has to say on these issues.
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Post by: idaho guy on December 15, 2018, 08:20:58 PM
Department of Fun and Games hands are tied on this problem. This was the Feds big idea. The best we can hope for is to get them delisted so the WDFW can open a hunting season on them to try and control the population.
I am pretty sure they are federally delisted in eastern Washington? wdfw could authorize a hunt tomorrow. wdfw hands are not tied on controlling wolves in eastern Washington it appears to be their choice
Post by: Humptulips on December 15, 2018, 08:46:23 PM
Their hands were tied when the Commission adopted the Wolf Recovery plan. Without redoing the plan there would be a slew of lawsuits follow if they diverged from it and probably our fine Governor would veto it like he did when the Commission tried to diverge from the Cougar management plan.Department of Fun and Games hands are tied on this problem. This was the Feds big idea. The best we can hope for is to get them delisted so the WDFW can open a hunting season on them to try and control the population.
I am pretty sure they are federally delisted in eastern Washington? wdfw could authorize a hunt tomorrow. wdfw hands are not tied on controlling wolves in eastern Washington it appears to be their choice
I'm betting it would take a minimum of a year most likely more to write a new wolf management plan.
Post by: idaho guy on December 15, 2018, 09:09:09 PM
Once again KF, I very much am not trying to argue specifically with you and I feel we are very much on the same page when it comes to the fact that we need to hunt wolves. I just don't like that the wolf is being blamed for so many things that it shouldn't be blamed for. You initially responded to my comment and we started this back and forth and I did not intent to single you out in my arguments.
My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators. Another point I made and special T reiterated is our lack of involvement as a group in the discussion. I self-admittedly I'm one of those offenders. My goal for this coming year is to attend at least two meetings somewhere in the state. Since Central Washington is a redheaded stepchild of the whole state we are very much left out of the conversation but I'm dedicated to making the drive east or west do you have my voice heard. I challenge all hunting Washington members to make the same commitment.
We aren't far off in our opinions but I feel like you've branded me a wolf hater that thinks all wolves must die and that's far from the truth. I know they're here to stay, the ranchers around me all know that they're here to stay as well.
Literally no one actually thinks there's even a slight hope of eliminating all the wolves, but opinions vary greatly on how many wolves we should have though :chuckle:
For what it’s worth I think you are both right. :chuckle: I decided I also hate wolf threads! But as much as I don’t want to comment I can’t help myself. Kf what you pointed out is correct there were wolves already here and they brought in the WRONG wolf. Also I think you need to kill 50 plus percent to stay even with the population each year so ya going to 365 day hunting season won’t reduce the population by itself. Killing wolves in the panhandle of Idaho is tough and much of Washington would be the same.I agree 100 percent with Karl too. Over harvest by hunting can be a problem and I worry about this in Idaho with the two deer and two elk option. I have taken advantage of this and killed two Idaho deer more than a few times I have also killed two elk. My main concern is for mule deer and especially quality of our deer so quit killing 2 Idaho deer karl :chuckle: I don’t think I will personally buy two deer tags in Idaho again. I focused on deer hunting with my son this year and he got a huge mulie buck so I didn’t even shoot 1 Idaho deer this year. I did reduce the Montana deer population though!I also agree with habitat loss and lack of logging has been a huge negative for elk and deer. I also don’t hate wolves for being wolves but I hate what liberals allowed them to do to our herds through mindless lawsuits etc. I love to hunt lions too and certain people mainly deer hunters always want to kill them all! I totally disagree with this and always let lions go every year because I want them around forever. But we kill them every year too because I want deer too. I don’t think we can play god but we can and should manage wildlife and especially predators. If anyone doubts how devastating wolves can be should look at the Yellowstone elk herd 19000 to around or less than 2000. To the original point if the majority of hunters all agreed not to buy a license in one year that would get their attention and I bet they would have a few meetings closer than 3 hours to where you live! I think anti hunters did aggressively push wolf reintroduction to eliminate hunting by eliminating surplus game. Not just wolves they want all predators to overpopulate. Well meaning hunters are already arguing over limiting seasons and tags to help the herds but it won’t matter what hunters do with uncontrolled predators one wolf will take at least 20 to 30 animals per year and a lion kills 52 deer a year! Quit fighting and gang up you need 100 plus hunters at a meeting. Problem is most hunters have jobs and families and seems like the other side has all the time in the world
Post by: idaho guy on December 15, 2018, 09:11:44 PM
Their hands were tied when the Commission adopted the Wolf Recovery plan. Without redoing the plan there would be a slew of lawsuits follow if they diverged from it and probably our fine Governor would veto it like he did when the Commission tried to diverge from the Cougar management plan.Department of Fun and Games hands are tied on this problem. This was the Feds big idea. The best we can hope for is to get them delisted so the WDFW can open a hunting season on them to try and control the population.
I am pretty sure they are federally delisted in eastern Washington? wdfw could authorize a hunt tomorrow. wdfw hands are not tied on controlling wolves in eastern Washington it appears to be their choice
I'm betting it would take a minimum of a year most likely more to write a new wolf management plan.
:tup:thanks for clarification! Little more complicated than just delisting
Post by: KFhunter on December 15, 2018, 10:03:28 PM
Once again KF, I very much am not trying to argue specifically with you and I feel we are very much on the same page when it comes to the fact that we need to hunt wolves. I just don't like that the wolf is being blamed for so many things that it shouldn't be blamed for. You initially responded to my comment and we started this back and forth and I did not intent to single you out in my arguments.
My point is and has been we need to call a spade a spade and be man enough to realize that the issues we have with ungulates has far less to do with Wolves than it does bigger factors like winter range, summer range, habitat in general, and over Harvest by all user groups including predators. Another point I made and special T reiterated is our lack of involvement as a group in the discussion. I self-admittedly I'm one of those offenders. My goal for this coming year is to attend at least two meetings somewhere in the state. Since Central Washington is a redheaded stepchild of the whole state we are very much left out of the conversation but I'm dedicated to making the drive east or west do you have my voice heard. I challenge all hunting Washington members to make the same commitment.
We aren't far off in our opinions but I feel like you've branded me a wolf hater that thinks all wolves must die and that's far from the truth. I know they're here to stay, the ranchers around me all know that they're here to stay as well.
Literally no one actually thinks there's even a slight hope of eliminating all the wolves, but opinions vary greatly on how many wolves we should have though :chuckle:
For what it’s worth I think you are both right. :chuckle: I decided I also hate wolf threads!
But as much as I don’t want to comment I can’t help myself. Kf what you pointed out is correct there were wolves already here and they brought in the WRONG wolf.
I wish I could find the minutes to the meeting USFWS service had discussing the larger wolves, it's buried under a mountain of wolf talk, what I remember is they decided to go with the larger wolves hoping they would take on the Bison in YNP (bigger wolves = bigger prey?) but what happened is they went after Elk. In a twist of irony the Elk population in the park plummeted and Bison population rose. Bison are harder on the stream banks than Elk.
Also I think you need to kill 50 plus percent to stay even with the population each year so ya going to 365 day hunting season won’t reduce the population by itself. Killing wolves in the panhandle of Idaho is tough and much of Washington would be the same.
Yes, but it sounds so terrible to a non-hunter or even worse to a wolf hugger I couldn't ever see a plan like this selling to the general public without *A LOT* of pain...by pain I mean wolves populating near urban areas so bad they're eating pets and people.
I agree 100 percent with Karl too. Over harvest by hunting can be a problem and I worry about this in Idaho with the two deer and two elk option. I have taken advantage of this and killed two Idaho deer more than a few times I have also killed two elk. My main concern is for mule deer and especially quality of our deer so quit killing 2 Idaho deer karl :chuckle: I don’t think I will personally buy two deer tags in Idaho again. I focused on deer hunting with my son this year and he got a huge mulie buck so I didn’t even shoot 1 Idaho deer this year. I did reduce the Montana deer population though!
I don't even hunt deer locally anymore, for WA I've opted to just hunt predators for the most part
I also agree with habitat loss and lack of logging has been a huge negative for elk and deer.
This really depends on the area in question, in many areas of the state the carrying capacity isn't anywhere near full for deer or elk, but in other areas of the state habitat may be recovering from fire, drought or too many people building in wintering areas. I just dislike the habitat argument because it needs to be pinpointed geographically and discussed, and solutions come up with, I'm fine with that discussion but "habitat loss" is usually painted with a very wide brush. One thing I've always maintained is that habitat can always be improved and should be improved, but it's not usually the one limiting factor in herd sizes.
I also don’t hate wolves for being wolves but I hate what liberals allowed them to do to our herds through mindless lawsuits etc. I love to hunt lions too and certain people mainly deer hunters always want to kill them all! I totally disagree with this and always let lions go every year because I want them around forever. But we kill them every year too because I want deer too. I don’t think we can play god but we can and should manage wildlife and especially predators. If anyone doubts how devastating wolves can be should look at the Yellowstone elk herd 19000 to around or less than 2000. To the original point if the majority of hunters all agreed not to buy a license in one year that would get their attention and I bet they would have a few meetings closer than 3 hours to where you live! I think anti hunters did aggressively push wolf reintroduction to eliminate hunting by eliminating surplus game.
and open range cattle, and other public uses
Not just wolves they want all predators to overpopulate. Well meaning hunters are already arguing over limiting seasons and tags to help the herds but it won’t matter what hunters do with uncontrolled predators
exactly!!
one wolf will take at least 20 to 30 animals per year and a lion kills 52 deer a year! Quit fighting and gang up you need 100 plus hunters at a meeting. Problem is most hunters have jobs and families and seems like the other side has all the time in the world
Well said man, you should up speak more often :chuckle:
Post by: idaho guy on December 16, 2018, 08:02:35 AM
I guess they have a short memory and seems like instead of looking back at the results they created they always look forward to the next cause which is wolves and global warming now. Sounds like most of you or some have decided not to kill at least deer so I think it would send a strong message if everyone passed on buying for a year. They would crap their pants and probably listen to sportsmen for once. Probably not realistic
Post by: idaho guy on December 16, 2018, 08:09:50 AM
Post by: MR5x5 on December 16, 2018, 08:37:25 AM
55 yr resident of this state. Hunting since 9 yrs old.
I opted out last year and don't plan on coming back. Not just for wolves, but for all of the reasons stated (except winter kill, that is a little hard to manage).
So I will now concentrate on enjoying Idaho. Sorry Idaho... Joined F4WM so as not to be a total freeloader.
It's more money, it's less convenient, but it is where the good fight is being fought.
FWIW Washington forest mgmt feels like amateur hour compared to Idaho.
IMHO anybody that thinks this does not ultimately come down to money and control is missing long game.
Again, not simply because of wolves but because of the multiple ways in which state gov has co-opted WDFW to be tool to enact interests not associated with their stated purpose.
If everyone took a year off from this state I guarantee the issues would see the light off day. I think you would be surprised with how many non-hunters are sympathetic and reasonable. They currently mostly ignorant or brainwashed.
Post by: ne kid on December 16, 2018, 08:58:29 AM
Post by: Tradhunter on December 30, 2018, 11:24:12 PM
I certainly do not mind having wolves in this state however if they were the proper native wolf things would be a lot different. From what I have seen, the wolves we now have seem to struggle a little bit taking down deer in timbered areas to gain speed. Problem is biggest in the deer winter ranges where most of our timber harvests and fire fuels are reaped from the land giving the wolves all the room to run em down.
We do have a giant issue with wildlife management but thats where if we take a stand and not purchase a license maybe they will listen? I know these meetings are cleverly scheduled so us working people cannot attend so this is the other option. What we need 1st is for our license fees to go to the game department so we can have more money to manage with, 2nd should be the people...deal with the management our wildlife herds need to be healthy and 3rd, politics...this should not even be a part in it but it always will be but it has to come last.
Post by: Special T on December 30, 2018, 11:27:51 PM
I know this state needs predator control but I also know a 1 year boycott wont work.
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Post by: vandeman17 on December 31, 2018, 06:10:35 AM
As an aside... are you willing to put some $ to the cause to support the predator lawsuit? When the detail come out I will.
I know this state needs predator control but I also know a 1 year boycott wont work.
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I would be happy to do either
Post by: trophyhunt on December 31, 2018, 06:20:43 AM