Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 11:00:03 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181220/a7ca84a24bfe36966ffe866b49a2873e.jpg)
Post by: D-Rock425 on December 20, 2018, 11:23:37 AM
Post by: Alchase on December 20, 2018, 11:48:33 AM
the Purina Kennels in Carnation, had a strain of beautiful Red Labs. The only place I have ever seen that color.
I wonder what happened to all of them.
Post by: MtnMuley on December 20, 2018, 11:52:07 AM
What about Red?
the Purina Kennels in Carnation, had a strain of beautiful Red Labs. The only place I have ever seen that color.
I wonder what happened to all of them.
All a "red lab" is, is a color variation of a Yellow Lab.
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 11:57:19 AM
What about Red?
the Purina Kennels in Carnation, had a strain of beautiful Red Labs. The only place I have ever seen that color.
I wonder what happened to all of them.
All a "red lab" is, is a color variation of a Yellow Lab.
^^^^^^^^^
[/The American Kennel Club Labrador breed standard states: ‘Yellow–Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog.’b]
Post by: Alchase on December 20, 2018, 11:57:44 AM
What about Red?
the Purina Kennels in Carnation, had a strain of beautiful Red Labs. The only place I have ever seen that color.
I wonder what happened to all of them.
All a "red lab" is, is a color variation of a Yellow Lab.
True, but a yellow can come from a black, They had a whole line of only Reds.
Post by: lewy on December 20, 2018, 11:58:16 AM
Post by: eastsidemallard74 on December 20, 2018, 11:59:21 AM
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 12:01:29 PM
AKC recognizes silver.....
Pretty sure that's not true. People register them as chocolate, which is inaccurate and the point of the letter above that owners get upon registration.
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 12:03:59 PM
AKC recognizes silver.....
Here's the AKC breed standard.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/LabradorRetriever.pdf
Color: The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black-Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow-Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate-Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.
Post by: Alchase on December 20, 2018, 12:11:22 PM
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
Post by: Mfowl on December 20, 2018, 12:23:25 PM
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 12:23:30 PM
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
@Happy Gilmore maybe?
I don't think I've been in the valley long enough to know.
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 12:29:18 PM
Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
Knowing a little bit about color genetics in other animals, this got me curious so I hit the googler. Found this.
Red starts with yellow!
To get a fox red lab, you first of all need the genes that switch off both the black or brown coat color. And those are called little e genes. They also come in a pair like this: ee
And when they get together they have the amazing power to completely block the action of both little and big B genes.
What's in a name? Red Fox Lab or Fox Red Lab both refer to the same dog.A lab with two little ee genes cannot have a brown or a black coat and so the coat color now defaults to yellow.
Now we are getting closer to our fox red color.
E genes can also be big like this: EE or mixed like this: Ee, but when that happens the big E switches off the little e, and takes away its power.
This renders the little e gene useless and it can’t then in turn switch off the brown or black coat color. So you’ll get a default black dog (or brown if it’s a double bb).
If you don’t want those gorgeous red hairs all over your car – a cargo liner might be just the thing!
Only when the two little ee genes get together can they switch off the black and brown B or b genes and give you a basically yellow dog.
But how does a basically yellow Lab get a gorgeous red coat?
A red Lab is a variation of yellow, and every red dog has those essential little e genes that switch off black and brown. But then it starts to get a little bit more complicated.
Hang on in there, we’ll try and simplify it a little.
It centers on a pigment called pheomelanin.
This pigment is responsible for the depth of red coloring in the yellow lab’s coat. And it is controlled by two different sets of genes.
The A gene controls the production of the red color. And the C gene controls whether or not it is fully expressed or diluted.
Post by: wildweeds on December 20, 2018, 12:31:37 PM
Post by: Crunchy on December 20, 2018, 12:32:50 PM
Post by: elkoholic on December 20, 2018, 01:12:21 PM
Post by: Bucks2Ducks on December 20, 2018, 01:30:49 PM
Our Silver lab Smokey(gone now), Gets kind of old having to explain silver labs to everyone we would meet.That was a great looking lab!
Post by: lewy on December 20, 2018, 01:38:36 PM
AKC recognizes silver.....
Pretty sure that's not true. People register them as chocolate, which is inaccurate and the point of the letter above that owners get upon registration.
Ok there are many registered silvers then, so pretty much the same thing.
Post by: Alchase on December 20, 2018, 01:49:13 PM
Our Silver lab Smokey(gone now), Gets kind of old having to explain silver labs to everyone we would meet.
That is one beautiful dog!
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 02:00:49 PM
AKC recognizes silver.....
Pretty sure that's not true. People register them as chocolate, which is inaccurate and the point of the letter above that owners get upon registration.
Ok there are many registered silvers then, so pretty much the same thing.
The point of the thread was the new policy they're taking....at least it appears they're taking. Silvers were being registered as chocolates. They will no longer be accepted and shouldn't be registered as chocolates because they're not chocolates.
Post by: Alchase on December 20, 2018, 02:06:00 PM
AKC could not care less about the ability of a dog to perform as they were bred too. They only care how well the owners can do the dogs hair, and what their balls feel like, LOL
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on December 20, 2018, 02:16:26 PM
Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 02:36:03 PM
Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
I gotta believe it would come down to what's behind the dam and sire that would determine the color of the pups more than just their colors.
Post by: 92xj on December 20, 2018, 02:44:22 PM
Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
I gotta believe it would come down to what's behind the dam and sire that would determine the color of the pups more than just their colors.
I do believe the sire was behind the dam
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 02:46:54 PM
Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
I gotta believe it would come down to what's behind the dam and sire that would determine the color of the pups more than just their colors.
I do believe the sire was behind the dam
#biology
:chuckle:
Post by: huntnfmly on December 20, 2018, 02:57:35 PM
😆😆Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
I gotta believe it would come down to what's behind the dam and sire that would determine the color of the pups more than just their colors.
I do believe the sire was behind the dam
#biology
:chuckle:
Post by: Alchase on December 20, 2018, 03:48:39 PM
Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
I gotta believe it would come down to what's behind the dam and sire that would determine the color of the pups more than just their colors.
I do believe the sire was behind the dam
#biology
:chuckle:
101
:chuckle:
Post by: Colin on December 20, 2018, 08:35:21 PM
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Post by: fowl smacker on December 20, 2018, 08:44:07 PM
I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Post by: jackelope on December 20, 2018, 08:54:51 PM
I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Who knows if it’s the same but the animals we raise, Black is Dominant so unless both parents carry chocolate you’re going to at least get some blacks. If there’s nothing but chocolatexchocolate you’ll get all chocolates. If you have a chocolate that carries black you could/will at least get some blacks.
Post by: Forks on December 21, 2018, 05:04:05 AM
Shouldn't be a news flash...... the blue haired ladies of the AKC have ruined more than one breed for physical attributes, like blue weimeraners, silver labs, hideous looking pointer and setter breeds. And generally they suffer severely in the performance department.Speaker of the truth.
Post by: Bigshooter on December 21, 2018, 06:05:46 AM
Post by: Jpmiller on December 21, 2018, 06:15:41 AM
Post by: Colin on December 21, 2018, 12:37:26 PM
That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Post by: Colin on December 21, 2018, 12:41:07 PM
Unless you are breeding and want to be AKC registered who really cares.I'm not a breeder but may breed my boy at some point in the future. Initially the reason I wanted a dog I could register because I wanted to run hunt tests in the off season... Now hunting is the off season. Lol.
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Post by: jackelope on December 21, 2018, 01:33:35 PM
That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.
Post by: wildweeds on December 21, 2018, 02:12:08 PM
Post by: Colin on December 21, 2018, 02:36:08 PM
Well yeah if you're breeding two brown mutts together then you could get anything.That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.
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Post by: CoryTDF on December 21, 2018, 02:40:10 PM
Factored labs are not mutts.Well yeah if you're breeding two brown mutts together then you could get anything.That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on December 21, 2018, 03:19:12 PM
Well yeah if you're breeding two brown mutts together then you could get anything.That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow
So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?
Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?
I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
@Colin
That's not what I meant. I meant if you have a chocolate dog out of a black dog or a dog that carries black, black is dominant over chocolate and will show up in the litter somewhere. Or maybe a chocolate dog that's not purely genetically chocolate is a mutt in your world?
Post by: Colin on December 21, 2018, 03:28:22 PM
I'm just confused cause I believed the above so when you said a chocolate with a black gene I thought you meant they were getting the black from being a mix of lab and something else.
I do know there is an answer cause all the color variations as far as black, yellow or chocolate can be tested for.
Where's WRL? We need the expert!!!
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Post by: High Climber on December 21, 2018, 03:29:45 PM
We registered our lab with akc when we got her and I spent the rest of her life wondering whyThought I was the only one
Post by: Old Dog on December 21, 2018, 03:38:54 PM
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flabbies.com%2Fcccov.jpg&hash=3464e6b1188982e7305ed3bc601e9f312d54a7dd)
Coat Color Inheritance in the Labrador Retriever
Coat Color
The Labrador retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling.
Blacks: Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification.
Yellow: Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream; with variations in shading on the ears, back and underparts of the dog.
Chocolate: Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification....From The Official AKC Standard of the Labrador Retriever.
Phenotype and Genotype...or what are Labs made of?
The American Kennel Club classifies a Labrador Retriever into three color categories; what is known in genetic analysis as phenotypes. Phenotype can therefore be defined as the actual color appearance. However, when one breeds two black Labs, one may get only black puppies, but upon breeding another two black individuals one may get yellow and chocolate puppies as well as black. This indicates that though the dogs from two such crosses may appear to be the same color, or phenotype, they don't have the same genetic makeup, or genotype. It is the genotypes of the sire and dam which are responsible for yielding color variations in a litter.
Dominant and Recessive...or why do black Labs prevail?
It is not by accident that there are more black Labradors than any other color or that many breeders prefer black over the other colors. Since the black coloration is prevalent, "type" has been well substantiated in black Labs for many years, with yellows following and recently in chocolates. But the question remains: why is black prevalent? There are two genes responsible for black or chocolate coloration in the Lab. "B" which is the symbol for the black gene and "b" which symbolizes the chocolate gene. Knowing that a puppy gets 1/2 of its genes from one parent and 1/2 from the other parent then if one crosses a black Lab that has no chocolate gene to a chocolate Lab an individual might expect to get black and chocolate puppies; instead, the individual may be disappointed to find that the litter is all black. Where did the chocolate disappear to? If this individual is not discouraged he may later breed one of these black puppies to a chocolate lab and this time he will be satisfied because 1/2 of the litter will be black and 1/2 will be chocolate. The chocolate had been hiding. This indicates that although we cannot see the chocolate, it is still there in the genetic make-up (genotype), masked by the black gene. For this reason, geneticists call the black gene dominant over the chocolate gene which is called recessive. To summarize:
BB = black Lab, no chocolate gene Bb = black Lab, carries chocolate gene bb = chocolate Lab, no black gene
To discuss yellow coloration, a third gene must be introduced. Yellow is produced by the presence of a recessive epistatic gene which has the effect of blotting out the expression of the black or chocolate genes. If "E" = the dominant form of for the epistatic gene, and "e" = the recessive form, then there are three possibilities:
EE = no yellow gene Ee = yellow carrier but apears either black or chocolate ee = yellow Lab
Determining Probability...or what to expect from a breeding?
There are only three acceptable colors (phenotypes) for Labrador Retrievers, however, there are a total of nine possible combinations of genes (genotypes) that will determine which of these colors a Lab will be (Figure 1). Of those nine, there is one combination that should be avoided when breeding, that is the yellow dog carrying two recessive chocolate genes (eebb). This combination will produce a yellow Lab with chocolate pigmentation of the nose and eye-rims, so one should avoid any breeding cross that will produce individuals with this genetic make-up. But how can a breeder be certain? He can't, that's why breeding is very tricky. It is often difficult to determine genetic make-up of an individual; even when a line is researched there may still be some question. A breeder may produce individuals with undesirable coat traits, but with his knowledge of genetics he will know why the trait appeared and will not repeat the mistake. The Appendix gives examples of the possible crosses of genotypes and what one may expect when breeding particular individuals in terms of the ratio of genotypes within the litter as well as the ratio of color expression (phenotype) within the litter. If one knows the genotype of one's Lab, than he may determine the expected outcome of color variation when he crosses that Lab to another of a particular genotype.
The following are the 81 possible crosses between dog and bitch for coat color and the anticipated litter outcome:
Key:
{sire's genotype(color)} X {dam's genotype(color)} = frequency of genotypes within the litter---% breakdown of color expression within the litter (phenotype)
1. EEBB(black) X EEBB(black) = genotype: all EEBB---phenotype: all black puppies
2. EEBB(black) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEBB + 1/2 EeBB---phenotype: all black puppies
3. EEBB(black) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEBB + 1/2 EEBb---phenotype: all black puppies
4. EEBB(black) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
5. EEBB(black) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: all EeBB---phenotype: all black puppies
6. EEBB(black) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBB + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
7. EEBB(black) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: all EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
8. EEBB(black) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all EEBb---phenotype: all black puppies
9. EEBB(black) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEBb + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
10. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 2.
11. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/2 EeBB + 1/4 eeBB---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% yellow pups
12. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
13. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EEBB + 1/8 EEBb +1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 eeBB + 1/8 eeBb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% yellow pups
14. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBB + 1/2 eeBB---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups
15. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb +1/4 eeBB + 1/4 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50 % yellow pups
16. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups
17. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/2 EEBb + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
18. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBb + 1/2 EeBb + 1/4 eeBb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% yellow pups
19. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 3.
20. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 12.
21. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/2 EEBb + 1/4 EEbb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% choc pups
22. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EEBB + 1/4 EEBb + 1/8 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 EEbb + 1/8 Eebb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% choc pups
23. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBB + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
24. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBB + 1/2 EeBb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% choc pups
25. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups
26. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/2 EEBb + 1/2 EEbb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups
27. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 EEbb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups
28. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 4.
29. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 13.
30. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 22.
31. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/16 EEBB + 1/8 EEBb + 1/8 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/16 eeBB + 1/8 eeBb + 1/16 eebb + 1/16 EEbb + 1/8 Eebb---phenotype: 55% black pups + 25% yellow pups + 20% choc pups
32. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 eeBB + 1/4 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups
33. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 eeBB + 1/4 eeBb + 1/8 eebb + 1/8 Eebb---phenotype: 50% yellow pups + 38% black pups + 12% choc pups
34. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 Eebb + 1/4 eeBb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: 25% black pups + 50% yellow pups + 25% choc pups
35. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 EEbb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups
36. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 eeBb + 1/8 eebb + 1/8 EEbb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 37.5% black pups + 25% yellow pups + 37.5% choc pups
37. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 5.
38. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 14.
39. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 23.
40. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 32
41. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: all eeBB---phenotype: all yellow puppies
42. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 eeBB + 1/2 eeBb---phenotype: all yellow puppies
43. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: all eeBb---phenotype: all yellow puppies
44. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies
45. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups
46. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 6.
47. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 15.
48. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 24.
49. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 33
50. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 42.
51. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 eeBB + 1/2 eeBb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: all yellow puppies
52. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 eeBb + 1/2 eebb---phenotype: all yellow puppies
53. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups
54. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 Eebb + 1/4 eeBb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: 25% black pups + 25% choc pups + 50% yellow pups
55. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 7.
56. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 16.
57. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 25.
58. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 34
59. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 43.
60. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = see # 52.
61. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: all eebb---phenotype: all yellow puppies
62. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all Eebb---phenotype: all choc puppies
63. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 Eebb + 1/2 eebb---phenotype: 50% choc pups + 50% yellow pups
64. EEbb(choc) X EEBB(black) = see # 8.
65. EEbb(choc) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 17.
66. EEbb(choc) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 26.
67. EEbb(choc) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 35
68. EEbb(choc) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 44.
69. EEbb(choc) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = see # 53.
70. EEbb(choc) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = see # 62.
71. EEbb(choc) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all EEbb---phenotype: all choc puppies
72. EEbb(choc) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEbb + 1/2 Eebb---phenotype: all choc puppies
73. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 9.
74. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 18.
75. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 27.
76. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 36
77. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 45.
78. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = see # 54.
79. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = see # 63.
80. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EEbb(choc) = see # 72.
81. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEbb + 1/2 Eebb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: 75% choc pups + 25% yellow pups
Post by: PlateauNDN on December 21, 2018, 03:56:24 PM
I'm sorry for thread jacking but after that long life defining explanation on genetics it was hard to resist. :sry:
Post by: Colin on December 21, 2018, 04:05:03 PM
B's or b's or E's or e's I just wanna look at the picture and have it tell me. Lol!!!
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Post by: jackelope on December 21, 2018, 04:43:31 PM
[/quote]
Hmm... My understanding was that chocolates couldn't carry the black gene as a recessive trait cause it's the dominant gene. I easily could be wrong.
I'm just confused cause I believed the above so when you said a chocolate with a black gene I thought you meant they were getting the black from being a mix of lab and something else.
I do know there is an answer cause all the color variations as far as black, yellow or chocolate can be tested for.
Where's WRL? We need the expert!!!
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Gahhh... I shouldn't have even gotten involved in the genetics conversation. I have no idea if that's possible.
Post by: WRL on December 21, 2018, 10:23:54 PM
Chocolate to chocolate only gives you chocolate or POSSIBLY yellow if both are yellow factored. A yellow from two chocolates will have a liver nose and eye rims or more rarely pink nose and eye rims. If you get a black puppy from two chocolates, see above about betting on the lottery or child support payments from the other baby daddy.
There is NO SUCH THING as a "black factored" any color....black is dominant, they are either black or a different color. Chocolate actually mutes the black hence the "liver" color on the nose and eye rims versus the black nose and eye rims seen on most yellows (and all blacks). The chocolate allele and the black allele are the same allele...think of it as two on or off switches. In order for the light to be on, both switches have to be in the on position. But if one switch is on but the other is not, the light is not turned on. And if both switches are off, its off.
The yellow allele (e) is on a different locus. That is why you can get both black and chocolate pigment on the eye rims and nose.
Merry Christmas.
WRL
Post by: JBJLabradors on December 22, 2018, 12:47:06 AM
Post by: JBJLabradors on December 22, 2018, 12:52:44 AM
http://www.blueknightlabs.com/color/coatcolor.html
Post by: JBJLabradors on December 22, 2018, 10:17:26 AM
Easy way to get Silver and Fox red with white patchs in chest...... be unscrupulous and have a buddy with a weimeraner or a vizla. The inherited physical looks show you more than paper. Look for longer legs, pointy heads,slimmer build and slightly different coats.
Problem is they are importing thicker English style labs and breeding back to those to hide this. It's called the improvement program in the lab world. This is a very hot topic problem is AKC only cares about the money and refuses to do what UKC does and pull registration papers on these dogs since they were originally the papers were forged.
Post by: bornhunter on December 22, 2018, 10:54:55 AM
Silver is not a registerable color people lie and put it down as chocolate they are not. All silvers can be traced back to 1 of 2 kennels and they also bred Weims. Silver is the dd gene which purebred labs can not carry they are DD non dilute. As for fox red its just yellow which can range from white to fox red. Silvers never showed up till Kellogg and culo kennels lied and forged papers. They also most are affected with painful hair loss alopecia and other health issues. Silvers are not purebred no matter what anyone says.
:yeah:
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 10, 2019, 10:09:09 PM
I just know what I was told from old timers about Carnation Farms kennels. They tested food on dogs, field trial dogs. Some of the old local trainers had some play in the training. They did not breed for color from anything I've heard. Most would have been black being from Bert Carlson and Paul Shoemaker breedings back in the day. Probably nothing newer than mid 1970's. Could be wrong. Just old stories I'm trying to remember
Post by: coachcw on January 17, 2019, 10:22:17 AM
Post by: coachcw on January 17, 2019, 11:29:57 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 17, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Ok back to the serious stuff.
To the title..... Silvers may not be chocolate, but when I saw what they were selling for, they created chocolate in my pants :yike:
Post by: coachcw on January 17, 2019, 02:54:09 PM
Post by: coachcw on January 17, 2019, 02:55:23 PM
Post by: coachcw on January 17, 2019, 03:21:25 PM
Post by: boneaddict on January 17, 2019, 03:23:59 PM
Post by: jetjockey on January 17, 2019, 05:20:47 PM
Post by: WRL on January 17, 2019, 06:04:10 PM
Ok so basically: there are currently three genes that determine Labrador coat colors. These genes each have two variations called alleles. The first of these is the pigment expression allele denoted as an “E”. The capital letter shows the dominate trait for genes. Lower case is recessive. In the case of labs there is no intermediate variation in the “heterozygous” case which would be “Ee” for this allele. Instead we call these labs to be carriers of the recessive trait without showing that they have the trait. Anyways, back to the “E” trait. When a dog has the “E” trait that means that they will express either brown or black coloration (we are not looking at the dilute factor yet). If instead both the maternal and paternal alleles give the dog an “ee” inheritance the dog will always be yellow in color. Meaning that the recessive “homozygous recessive” for the pigment trait will breed yellow labs. The second trait for lab coloration is the brown or black coloration. Now that we understand the pigment expression we look at the variations of brown and black. Black is dominate to brown so as long as there is a “B” present that dog will be a black lab. So to recap- a “EEBB, EeBb, EeBB and EEBb” will all give you a black lab. “eeBb, eeBB and eebb” will be yellow labs and “EEbb and Eebb” will be chocolate labs. The additional variation is the dilute gene. Like the yellow coloration- the color is only expressed if both genes are recessive “dd”. So now that we know if they will be yellow, black or chocolate we can add the dilute trait to the mix. Yellows will the homozygous recessive (both lowercase) will be red or white labs, blacks will be charcoal, and chocolates will be silver labs. There is a lot of controversy on lab color and if these dogs are actually true labs. The answer is absolutely. But at first these variations are very rare- as breeders start to breed dogs that randomly express these color changes they select for those colors in the population. They can at first happen as a random mutation which is very common and happens to all organisms. The more we breed these dogs the more we see them in the population. For example, when labs were first breed there was only the black coloration. Many generations later the yellow labs showed up then chocolate. Now we have dilute genes in the population showing the evolution of Labradors throughout history. Hope this answers your question.
Actually you are wrong. Chocolate and yellow pups showed up in the first generations of the Labrador breed and are notated in the records before the stud book was closed. Dilute colored dogs showed up in the 50's (nearly 50 years after the stud books closed) in only one kennel. That kennel was Kellogg kennels. They were trying to reinforce the pointing gene in Labradors. This kennel also bred Weims.
Crist Culo took the "dilute" dogs they bought from Kellogg kennels and "marketed" them to the fullest in the late 70's and 80's.
The first dilute dogs in Great Britain and Australia showed up in the 90s and were from dogs imported from the US. The dilute gene was not in the population base in either of those countries until the imported dogs.
The dilute gene has not showed up in the "general" population of Labradors and only shows up in Labradors that have a dilute ancestor and all of those pedigrees of the dilute dogs go back to two different stud dogs at Kellogg kennels.
I have done over 40 dilute tests from dozens of different pedigrees within the Labrador population and none....ZERO have come up as dilute carriers.
Its an introduced gene and doesnt belong in the Labrador gene pool.
WRL
Post by: hollymaster on January 17, 2019, 06:41:05 PM
Wild is 110% spot on. The AKC has ruined more field dogs than they will ever create. Thank GOD the pointing dog world has American Field...... I’m hoping Brittany’s will completely split from the AKC after the last debacle I’ve had with them. The AKC is a joke for those of us in the pointing dog world, who actually want dogs to point and run vs look good in a show ring based on a “standard”.:yeah: AKC is a joke.
Post by: JBJLabradors on January 18, 2019, 07:36:29 PM
So my daughter is into gentics ....it's over my head she said this is the simple version of it.
This is wrong its the D locus and purebred labs only carry DD they do not carry the DD or Dd to give the dilute factor. It is not possible without mixed breeding with Weims.
Post by: JBJLabradors on January 18, 2019, 07:39:14 PM
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 19, 2019, 05:51:36 PM
Wild is 110% spot on. The AKC has ruined more field dogs than they will ever create. Thank GOD the pointing dog world has American Field...... I’m hoping Brittany’s will completely split from the AKC after the last debacle I’ve had with them. The AKC is a joke for those of us in the pointing dog world, who actually want dogs to point and run vs look good in a show ring based on a “standard”.
Just a minor correction, your breed club ruined your dogs and you breeders did nothing about it. AKC has never written a breed standard or promoted a style. It is your own breed club. If you know and research how the AKC works, you find they are a registry and the individual breed clubs handle the rest.
March on....
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 19, 2019, 05:52:52 PM
Wild is 110% spot on. The AKC has ruined more field dogs than they will ever create. Thank GOD the pointing dog world has American Field...... I’m hoping Brittany’s will completely split from the AKC after the last debacle I’ve had with them. The AKC is a joke for those of us in the pointing dog world, who actually want dogs to point and run vs look good in a show ring based on a “standard”.:yeah: AKC is a joke.
This is inaccurate information. Sorry
Post by: haugenna on January 19, 2019, 07:09:10 PM
I have a fox red out of Morgan’s kennel in Chewelah.
Interesting read. There is a graphite colored dog that works at SeaTac that is absolutely gorgeous. Anyone seen him? I asked the handler if I could take a picture but he failed to stop and pose for me. :chuckle:
Post by: NOCK NOCK on January 20, 2019, 06:26:08 AM
Post by: WRL on January 21, 2019, 11:36:57 AM
Tagging.
I have a fox red out of Morgan’s kennel in Chewelah.
Interesting read. There is a graphite colored dog that works at SeaTac that is absolutely gorgeous. Anyone seen him? I asked the handler if I could take a picture but he failed to stop and pose for me. :chuckle:
Fox Red has always been in the standard. They are yellows with a red modifier. Its found on a different locus.
WRL
Post by: Jpmiller on January 21, 2019, 11:53:12 AM
Post by: Old Dog on January 22, 2019, 10:05:58 AM
Post by: WRL on January 22, 2019, 12:38:37 PM
Is there any difference in other areas physically or any temperament issues known to be with these "non pure" colors? Not trying to be a jerk or anything just curious about it.
Color dilution alopecia, certain types of cancer and lots and lots of allergies.
Along with the fact most have junk pedigrees of non health tested dogs behind them, they have HD at a higher rate and interestingly enough, PRA at a higher rate just like Weims.
WRL
Post by: jagermiester on January 22, 2019, 01:05:45 PM
Wild is 110% spot on. The AKC has ruined more field dogs than they will ever create. Thank GOD the pointing dog world has American Field...... I’m hoping Brittany’s will completely split from the AKC after the last debacle I’ve had with them. The AKC is a joke for those of us in the pointing dog world, who actually want dogs to point and run vs look good in a show ring based on a “standard”.
Just a minor correction, your breed club ruined your dogs and you breeders did nothing about it. AKC has never written a breed standard or promoted a style. It is your own breed club. If you know and research how the AKC works, you find they are a registry and the individual breed clubs handle the rest.
March on....
Kinda splitting hairs here don't you think?
We all know what he meant was breeding Dogs for show is what is ruining some of the working dogs.
Post by: JBJLabradors on January 23, 2019, 12:38:09 PM
Is there any difference in other areas physically or any temperament issues known to be with these "non pure" colors? Not trying to be a jerk or anything just curious about it.
Yes aggression issues, alopecia, hair loss, skin cancer, PRA eye issues, there are legitamite reasons any ethical breeder and the labrador club of America and every single registry other then AKC will not register them. Every ethical breeders dogs test DD you can not get a dilute without cross breeding to Weims or other breeds its not genetically possible.
Post by: JBJLabradors on January 23, 2019, 12:38:59 PM
What about Red?
the Purina Kennels in Carnation, had a strain of beautiful Red Labs. The only place I have ever seen that color.
I wonder what happened to all of them.
Fox reds have always been and always will be in standard they are a shade of yellow.
Post by: Happy Gilmore on January 23, 2019, 10:15:03 PM
Wild is 110% spot on. The AKC has ruined more field dogs than they will ever create. Thank GOD the pointing dog world has American Field...... I’m hoping Brittany’s will completely split from the AKC after the last debacle I’ve had with them. The AKC is a joke for those of us in the pointing dog world, who actually want dogs to point and run vs look good in a show ring based on a “standard”.
Just a minor correction, your breed club ruined your dogs and you breeders did nothing about it. AKC has never written a breed standard or promoted a style. It is your own breed club. If you know and research how the AKC works, you find they are a registry and the individual breed clubs handle the rest.
March on....
Kinda splitting hairs here don't you think?
We all know what he meant was breeding Dogs for show is what is ruining some of the working dogs.
No. AKC is registry. The breed clubs make the rules. Not the AKC. You dont like a style of a breed, it's your club you take up issue with about the standard. AKC has no will with the standard.