Silver labs are not chocolate

[jackelope]

Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow

So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?



Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?

I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only

I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.

Who knows if it’s the same but the animals we raise, Black is Dominant so unless both parents carry chocolate you’re going to at least get some blacks. If there’s nothing but chocolatexchocolate you’ll get all chocolates. If you have a chocolate that carries black you could/will at least get some blacks.

[Forks]

Shouldn't be a news flash...... the blue haired ladies of the AKC have ruined more than one breed for physical attributes, like blue weimeraners, silver labs, hideous looking pointer and setter breeds. And generally they suffer severely in the performance department.

Speaker of the truth.

[Bigshooter]

Unless you are breeding and want to be AKC registered who really cares. 

[Jpmiller]

We registered our lab with akc when we got her and I spent the rest of her life wondering why

[Colin]

Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow

So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?



Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?

I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only

I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.

That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Colin]

Unless you are breeding and want to be AKC registered who really cares.

I'm not a breeder but may breed my boy at some point in the future. Initially the reason I wanted a dog I could register because I wanted to run hunt tests in the off season... Now hunting is the off season. Lol.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[jackelope]

Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow

So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?



Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?

I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only

I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.

That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.

[wildweeds]

Easy way to get Silver and Fox red with  white patchs in chest...... be unscrupulous and have a buddy with a weimeraner or a vizla.  The inherited physical looks show you more than paper. Look for longer legs, pointy heads,slimmer build and slightly different coats.

[Colin]

Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow

So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?



Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?

I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only

I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.

That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.

Well yeah if you're breeding two brown mutts together then you could get anything.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[CoryTDF]

Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow

So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?



Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?

I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only

I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.

That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.

Well yeah if you're breeding two brown mutts together then you could get anything.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

Factored labs are not mutts.

[jackelope]

Here are the possible Combinations:
Black + Black = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Black + Chocolate = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Chocolate = Chocolate or Yellow
Chocolate + Yellow = Black, Chocolate or Yellow
Yellow + Yellow = Yellow

So Rubys or Red must come from Yellow and ?



Anyone know what happened to the Carnation Farm Dogs?

I know from experience that yellow + yellow can give you yellow as well as black, not just yellow only

I also know from experience that chocolate+chocolate can give you black as well.

That's odd cause what I see on all the color breeding charts says that's not possible.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

If the chocolates are pure chocolates then it's probably not possible, but if you have a chocolate that carries black, then it's got to be possible. Genetics is about more than just the color you're looking at. Have to look at what the dogs that were bred are out of too.

Well yeah if you're breeding two brown mutts together then you could get anything.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

@Colin
That's not what I meant. I meant if you have a chocolate dog out of a black dog or a dog that carries black, black is dominant over chocolate and will show up in the litter somewhere. Or maybe a chocolate dog that's not purely genetically chocolate is a mutt in your world?

[Colin]

Hmm... My understanding was that chocolates couldn't carry the black gene as a recessive trait cause it's the dominant gene. I easily could be wrong.

I'm just confused cause I believed the above so when you said a chocolate with a black gene I thought you meant they were getting the black from being a mix of lab and something else.

I do know there is an answer cause all the color variations as far as black, yellow or chocolate can be tested for.

Where's WRL? We need the expert!!!



Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[High Climber]

We registered our lab with akc when we got her and I spent the rest of her life wondering why

Thought I was the only one

[Old Dog]

Here ya go guys.  Easy peasy.   



Coat Color Inheritance in the Labrador Retriever
Coat Color
The Labrador retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling.
Blacks: Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification.
Yellow: Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream; with variations in shading on the ears, back and underparts of the dog.
Chocolate: Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification....From The Official AKC Standard of the Labrador Retriever.
Phenotype and Genotype...or what are Labs made of?
The American Kennel Club classifies a Labrador Retriever into three color categories; what is known in genetic analysis as phenotypes. Phenotype can therefore be defined as the actual color appearance. However, when one breeds two black Labs, one may get only black puppies, but upon breeding another two black individuals one may get yellow and chocolate puppies as well as black. This indicates that though the dogs from two such crosses may appear to be the same color, or phenotype, they don't have the same genetic makeup, or genotype. It is the genotypes of the sire and dam which are responsible for yielding color variations in a litter.

Dominant and Recessive...or why do black Labs prevail?
It is not by accident that there are more black Labradors than any other color or that many breeders prefer black over the other colors. Since the black coloration is prevalent, "type" has been well substantiated in black Labs for many years, with yellows following and recently in chocolates. But the question remains: why is black prevalent? There are two genes responsible for black or chocolate coloration in the Lab. "B" which is the symbol for the black gene and "b" which symbolizes the chocolate gene. Knowing that a puppy gets 1/2 of its genes from one parent and 1/2 from the other parent then if one crosses a black Lab that has no chocolate gene to a chocolate Lab an individual might expect to get black and chocolate puppies; instead, the individual may be disappointed to find that the litter is all black. Where did the chocolate disappear to? If this individual is not discouraged he may later breed one of these black puppies to a chocolate lab and this time he will be satisfied because 1/2 of the litter will be black and 1/2 will be chocolate. The chocolate had been hiding. This indicates that although we cannot see the chocolate, it is still there in the genetic make-up (genotype), masked by the black gene. For this reason, geneticists call the black gene dominant over the chocolate gene which is called recessive. To summarize:

BB = black Lab, no chocolate gene Bb = black Lab, carries chocolate gene bb = chocolate Lab, no black gene

To discuss yellow coloration, a third gene must be introduced. Yellow is produced by the presence of a recessive epistatic gene which has the effect of blotting out the expression of the black or chocolate genes. If "E" = the dominant form of for the epistatic gene, and "e" = the recessive form, then there are three possibilities:

EE = no yellow gene Ee = yellow carrier but apears either black or chocolate ee = yellow Lab

Determining Probability...or what to expect from a breeding?
There are only three acceptable colors (phenotypes) for Labrador Retrievers, however, there are a total of nine possible combinations of genes (genotypes) that will determine which of these colors a Lab will be (Figure 1). Of those nine, there is one combination that should be avoided when breeding, that is the yellow dog carrying two recessive chocolate genes (eebb). This combination will produce a yellow Lab with chocolate pigmentation of the nose and eye-rims, so one should avoid any breeding cross that will produce individuals with this genetic make-up. But how can a breeder be certain? He can't, that's why breeding is very tricky. It is often difficult to determine genetic make-up of an individual; even when a line is researched there may still be some question. A breeder may produce individuals with undesirable coat traits, but with his knowledge of genetics he will know why the trait appeared and will not repeat the mistake. The Appendix gives examples of the possible crosses of genotypes and what one may expect when breeding particular individuals in terms of the ratio of genotypes within the litter as well as the ratio of color expression (phenotype) within the litter. If one knows the genotype of one's Lab, than he may determine the expected outcome of color variation when he crosses that Lab to another of a particular genotype.


The following are the 81 possible crosses between dog and bitch for coat color and the anticipated litter outcome:

Key:

{sire's genotype(color)} X {dam's genotype(color)} = frequency of genotypes within the litter---% breakdown of color expression within the litter (phenotype)

1. EEBB(black) X EEBB(black) = genotype: all EEBB---phenotype: all black puppies

2. EEBB(black) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEBB + 1/2 EeBB---phenotype: all black puppies

3. EEBB(black) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEBB + 1/2 EEBb---phenotype: all black puppies

4. EEBB(black) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

5. EEBB(black) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: all EeBB---phenotype: all black puppies

6. EEBB(black) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBB + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

7. EEBB(black) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: all EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

8. EEBB(black) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all EEBb---phenotype: all black puppies

9. EEBB(black) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEBb + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

10. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 2.

11. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/2 EeBB + 1/4 eeBB---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% yellow pups

12. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

13. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EEBB + 1/8 EEBb +1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 eeBB + 1/8 eeBb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% yellow pups

14. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBB + 1/2 eeBB---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups

15. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb +1/4 eeBB + 1/4 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50 % yellow pups

16. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups

17. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/2 EEBb + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

18. EeBB(black/yellow carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBb + 1/2 EeBb + 1/4 eeBb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% yellow pups

19. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 3.

20. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 12.

21. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBB + 1/2 EEBb + 1/4 EEbb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% choc pups

22. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EEBB + 1/4 EEBb + 1/8 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 EEbb + 1/8 Eebb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% choc pups

23. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBB + 1/2 EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

24. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBB + 1/2 EeBb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 75% black pups + 25% choc pups

25. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups

26. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/2 EEBb + 1/2 EEbb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups

27. EEBb(black/choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 EEbb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups

28. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 4.

29. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 13.

30. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 22.

31. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/16 EEBB + 1/8 EEBb + 1/8 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/16 eeBB + 1/8 eeBb + 1/16 eebb + 1/16 EEbb + 1/8 Eebb---phenotype: 55% black pups + 25% yellow pups + 20% choc pups

32. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 eeBB + 1/4 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups

33. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EeBB + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 eeBB + 1/4 eeBb + 1/8 eebb + 1/8 Eebb---phenotype: 50% yellow pups + 38% black pups + 12% choc pups

34. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 Eebb + 1/4 eeBb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: 25% black pups + 50% yellow pups + 25% choc pups

35. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/4 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 EEbb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups

36. EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/8 EEBb + 1/4 EeBb + 1/8 eeBb + 1/8 eebb + 1/8 EEbb + 1/4 Eebb---phenotype: 37.5% black pups + 25% yellow pups + 37.5% choc pups

37. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 5.

38. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 14.

39. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 23.

40. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 32

41. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = genotype: all eeBB---phenotype: all yellow puppies

42. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 eeBB + 1/2 eeBb---phenotype: all yellow puppies

43. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: all eeBb---phenotype: all yellow puppies

44. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all EeBb---phenotype: all black puppies

45. eeBB(yellow/black carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 eeBb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% yellow pups

46. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 6.

47. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 15.

48. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 24.

49. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 33

50. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 42.

51. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = genotype: 1/4 eeBB + 1/2 eeBb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: all yellow puppies

52. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: 1/2 eeBb + 1/2 eebb---phenotype: all yellow puppies

53. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: 1/2 EeBb + 1/2 Eebb---phenotype: 50% black pups + 50% choc pups

54. eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EeBb + 1/4 Eebb + 1/4 eeBb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: 25% black pups + 25% choc pups + 50% yellow pups

55. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 7.

56. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 16.

57. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 25.

58. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 34

59. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 43.

60. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = see # 52.

61. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = genotype: all eebb---phenotype: all yellow puppies

62. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all Eebb---phenotype: all choc puppies

63. eebb(yellow/choc carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 Eebb + 1/2 eebb---phenotype: 50% choc pups + 50% yellow pups

64. EEbb(choc) X EEBB(black) = see # 8.

65. EEbb(choc) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 17.

66. EEbb(choc) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 26.

67. EEbb(choc) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 35

68. EEbb(choc) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 44.

69. EEbb(choc) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = see # 53.

70. EEbb(choc) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = see # 62.

71. EEbb(choc) X EEbb(choc) = genotype: all EEbb---phenotype: all choc puppies

72. EEbb(choc) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/2 EEbb + 1/2 Eebb---phenotype: all choc puppies

73. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EEBB(black) = see # 9.

74. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EeBB(black/yellow carrier) = see # 18.

75. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EEBb(black/choc carrier) = see # 27.

76. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EeBb(black/yellow & choc carrier) = see # 36

77. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X eeBB(yellow/black carrier) = see # 45.

78. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X eeBb(yellow/black & choc carrier) = see # 54.

79. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X eebb(yellow/choc carrier) = see # 63.

80. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X EEbb(choc) = see # 72.

81. Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) X Eebb(choc/yellow carrier) = genotype: 1/4 EEbb + 1/2 Eebb + 1/4 eebb---phenotype: 75% choc pups + 25% yellow pups

[PlateauNDN]

And that is how one becomes a tribal member.  

I'm sorry for thread jacking but after that long life defining explanation on genetics it was hard to resist.