Post by: konradcountry on May 26, 2019, 08:16:04 AM
Was talking to the local gun shop owner about this the other day.
He isn't sure how much business will drop but he is definitely seeing an increase in semi-auto sales as we get closer to July.
Also note that there isn't an exemption for rimfire which means even a 10/22 will require you take a class and pass an extensive background check.
So get that AR or 10/22 now since you only have about a month left.
Post by: Jpmiller on May 26, 2019, 08:21:17 AM
Post by: jackelope on May 26, 2019, 08:27:26 AM
I've always felt like I should want an AR but never actually wanted one. I've wanted to try my hand at building one but not super interested in owning one. Every few years I get a chance to shoot someone else's and it's great but I don't feel like racing out to buy my own. At some point this will change and I'll cross over into "I want my own" territory and when that day does come I'll grumble about all the hoops and BS it takes to get one.
Pretty much exactly where I’m at.
Post by: RockChuck on May 26, 2019, 08:31:08 AM
I've always felt like I should want an AR but never actually wanted one. I've wanted to try my hand at building one but not super interested in owning one. Every few years I get a chance to shoot someone else's and it's great but I don't feel like racing out to buy my own. At some point this will change and I'll cross over into "I want my own" territory and when that day does come I'll grumble about all the hoops and BS it takes to get one.
Pretty much exactly where I’m at.
Me to don’t really “need” one but kinda want one
Post by: Bango skank on May 26, 2019, 08:31:31 AM
Post by: ThurstonCokid on May 26, 2019, 08:40:00 AM
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Post by: BigGoonTuna on May 26, 2019, 08:45:39 AM
Go figure, all of my shotguns are autos.
Post by: actionshooter on May 26, 2019, 08:47:13 AM
I build a new competition rifle about once a year, and occasionally win a gun which is most likely an AR platform.
The other issue is, if by chance I come across a great deal on a private sale it would be terrible to pass it up because I can't buy it.
Post by: Special T on May 26, 2019, 09:07:36 AM
I've always felt like I should want an AR but never actually wanted one. I've wanted to try my hand at building one but not super interested in owning one. Every few years I get a chance to shoot someone else's and it's great but I don't feel like racing out to buy my own. At some point this will change and I'll cross over into "I want my own" territory and when that day does come I'll grumble about all the hoops and BS it takes to get one.
Pretty much exactly where I’m at.
Buy a stripped lower its less than $100 and everything else is just parts!
Post by: Oh Mah on May 26, 2019, 09:27:01 AM
My question is what is an extensive background check compared to the already background check ran by the state,fed,sheriff,and pd that we already have?
Post by: konradcountry on May 26, 2019, 09:51:45 AM
My question is what is an extensive background check compared to the already background check ran by the state,fed,sheriff,and pd that we already have?
It looks like they are going to use the handgun background check but the bill's wording allows them to do additional checks.
That also means a waiting period and no day one take home if you have a concealed carry license. In fact it looks like they are ending that for handguns.
Once you purchase a handgun or semi-auto rifle after July 1st you will be put on a list that the state monitors annually.
Post by: ghosthunter on May 26, 2019, 10:04:18 AM
I might pick up another AR 7 , but other than that not much interest in them.
Bought a KSG while back ,having fun with that.
Post by: Russ McDonald on May 26, 2019, 10:53:18 AM
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Post by: gasman on May 26, 2019, 11:05:50 AM
I will be picking up both stripped lowers this week for an AR 10 and 15. That way if and when I decide on my next build, I'm good to go :tup:
Post by: REHJWA on May 26, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
Post by: 10mmg on May 26, 2019, 12:18:50 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on May 26, 2019, 12:31:47 PM
Post by: Bob33 on May 26, 2019, 02:54:14 PM
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on May 26, 2019, 06:44:06 PM
I don't know....will there be an AR lower capable of true magnum length cartridges in the near future?
Already available:
https://nemoarms.com/rifles/omen-recon
Post by: tritt007 on May 26, 2019, 06:59:16 PM
Post by: bornhunter on May 26, 2019, 09:47:56 PM
Post by: actionshooter on May 26, 2019, 10:22:29 PM
Why not take a nice trip to Idaho or Montana and get the seminyou want when you want?From what I understand, not knowing exactly how, that's not going to be an option.
Post by: konradcountry on May 27, 2019, 07:37:31 AM
From my understanding , pistols and stripped lower ar15 style receivers are exempt from the actual 1639 rules
This is correct because lowers are technically classified as firearms and not semi-autos. 1639 was poorly written and fortunately didn't consider them.
But our anti-gun AG is aware of them and has talked about banning 80% lowers. I would expect California style "ghost gun" rules to follow.
Post by: grundy53 on May 27, 2019, 08:23:19 AM
From my understanding , pistols and stripped lower ar15 style receivers are exempt from the actual 1639 rules , all though because of the FBI no longer conducting courtesy nics checks there will be a 10 day waiting period on lowers and pistols regardless if you have a CPL or not .I know 1639 doesn't apply to stripped lowers. No need to rush out and get one. At least not yet. They may come back for those...
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Post by: SCRUBS on May 27, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
Where can I find the legal status to the challenges to 1639?
Sporting Systems website.
Post by: Cougartail on May 27, 2019, 12:31:18 PM
Why not take a nice trip to Idaho or Montana and get the seminyou want when you want?From what I understand, not knowing exactly how, that's not going to be an option.
In some States you could have a friend (resident) buy it., sell it to you and then bring it into Washington. If you live in a county like Yakima nobody will give a hoot as I-1639 is a meaningless as immigration law in King County.
Post by: tritt007 on May 27, 2019, 01:42:44 PM
Post by: bornhunter on May 27, 2019, 03:38:06 PM
Post by: tritt007 on May 27, 2019, 07:45:21 PM
Post by: gallion_t on May 27, 2019, 08:28:01 PM
Post by: tritt007 on May 27, 2019, 11:00:35 PM
Does this apply to semiauto shotguns too? I've been wanting one for a bit so I might have to pull the trigger on one if it does.
I'm no lawyer but from my understanding it only applies to semi auto shotguns if they come with a rifled slug barrel affixed . So if your buying a plain smoothbore semi auto no worries .
Post by: SGTDuffman on May 28, 2019, 05:35:16 AM
Post by: follow maggie on May 28, 2019, 08:55:50 PM
Post by: Special T on May 28, 2019, 11:37:12 PM
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Post by: Goshawk on May 30, 2019, 09:40:46 PM
It's a pretty pathetic way to make law when people with no knowledge about firearms and guns can vote our rights away.
It's like being a hound hunter all over again.
Post by: Mongo Hunter on May 31, 2019, 07:04:51 AM
Post by: TriggerMike on May 31, 2019, 09:52:29 AM
Post by: bobcat on May 31, 2019, 09:54:56 AM
What about normal bolt action rifles? Are you put on a list/registration if you buy one after July 1?
The new law only applies to semi automatic rifles.
Post by: CAMPMEAT on May 31, 2019, 11:19:30 AM
Post by: Yondering on May 31, 2019, 01:06:39 PM
all though because of the FBI no longer conducting courtesy nics checks there will be a 10 day waiting period on lowers and pistols regardless if you have a CPL or not .
An important detail about that to consider - up until now the waiting period has been a maximum time limit, meaning if the dealer didn't hear back from the various agencies within the allotted time, he was free to release the gun to the buyer. As of July 1 though, that provision is removed, so you'll have to wait indefinitely until the dealer gets the "proceed" notification. Given the swirl of confusion among the state agencies about how this will work, I wouldn't be surprised if we end up with a huge backlog and people waiting several months to pick up guns, rather than just 10 days.
Post by: Yondering on May 31, 2019, 01:13:21 PM
But our anti-gun AG is aware of them and has talked about banning 80% lowers. I would expect California style "ghost gun" rules to follow.
My local dealer told me that's already happened and will go into effect July 1 as well; that 80% lowers will be legal to own but illegal to purchase or sell.
Somebody please confirm or disprove that though; I hesitate to mention this sort of thing without confirming myself, but am not all that interested in 80% lowers so I haven't looked into it. If it's true, several of you guys might want to know about it.
I was also told that as of July 1, buying a semi-auto rifle (or maybe pistols, or any gun? some confusion there) gives WA state the right to conduct a yearly "mental health" check on the buyer. Do any of you want to confirm or disprove that in the actual law?
If true, that bit will be my main reason for not buying any semi-autos after July 1. Not because I'm nuts and would fail a fair and accurate mental health check, but because there is a lot of room for abuse when we go down that road.
Post by: actionshooter on May 31, 2019, 10:16:34 PM
But our anti-gun AG is aware of them and has talked about banning 80% lowers. I would expect California style "ghost gun" rules to follow.
My local dealer told me that's already happened and will go into effect July 1 as well; that 80% lowers will be legal to own but illegal to purchase or sell.
Somebody please confirm or disprove that though; I hesitate to mention this sort of thing without confirming myself, but am not all that interested in 80% lowers so I haven't looked into it. If it's true, several of you guys might want to know about it.
I was also told that as of July 1, buying a semi-auto rifle (or maybe pistols, or any gun? some confusion there) gives WA state the right to conduct a yearly "mental health" check on the buyer. Do any of you want to confirm or disprove that in the actual law?
If true, that bit will be my main reason for not buying any semi-autos after July 1. Not because I'm nuts and would fail a fair and accurate mental health check, but because there is a lot of room for abuse when we go down that road.
I can confirm the 80% lowers were outlawed, signed a couple of weeks ago by Inslee, a lot more was also signed in, gun owners have been taking a real beating in Wa.
Post by: Windwalker on June 01, 2019, 02:41:20 AM
HB 1739 Relating to firearms that are undetectable or untraceable
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2019-20/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1739-S.PL.pdf#page=1
Sec. 3. RCW 9.41.190 and 2018 c 7 s 3 are each amended to read as follows:
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(a) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short- barreled rifle;
(32) "Manufacture" means, with respect to a firearm, the fabrication or construction of a firearm.
(34) "Untraceable firearm" means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.
Post by: Special T on June 03, 2019, 11:30:48 AM
http://www.jlbillet.com/kalikey
I believe build not buy will be important. Additionally those of you with ARs separate the lower from the upper during storage and transportation. Separated they should be considered parts. This seems to be some level of defense attempted in Cali.
Post by: lamrith on June 03, 2019, 11:41:31 AM
It’s not a pleasant read. (Removed diatribe) See the link for clarification.Make sure to pay attention to the quote you posted. Per the final approved bill Untraceable is not illegal. They removed that parts during final recvision. THey have defined it, but not made it illegal unless intended for sale. Only Undetectable was added to section 1(a). All changes are marked with underline in the linked PDF.
HB 1739 Relating to firearms that are undetectable or untraceable
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2019-20/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1739-S.PL.pdf#page=1
Sec. 3. RCW 9.41.190 and 2018 c 7 s 3 are each amended to read as follows:
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(a) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short- barreled rifle;
(32) "Manufacture" means, with respect to a firearm, the fabrication or construction of a firearm.
(34) "Untraceable firearm" means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.
Post by: lamrith on June 03, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
That is not correct. Untraceable (hence 80%) lowers are NOT banned unless they are created with the intent to sell. They are still legal to purchase and own as a private citizen. Please see my post above. They removed the untraceable verbage from what is illegal in Section 1(a) during final revisions. We dodged a bullet (pun intended) on that one this time around.
But our anti-gun AG is aware of them and has talked about banning 80% lowers. I would expect California style "ghost gun" rules to follow.
My local dealer told me that's already happened and will go into effect July 1 as well; that 80% lowers will be legal to own but illegal to purchase or sell.
Somebody please confirm or disprove that though; I hesitate to mention this sort of thing without confirming myself, but am not all that interested in 80% lowers so I haven't looked into it. If it's true, several of you guys might want to know about it.
I was also told that as of July 1, buying a semi-auto rifle (or maybe pistols, or any gun? some confusion there) gives WA state the right to conduct a yearly "mental health" check on the buyer. Do any of you want to confirm or disprove that in the actual law?
If true, that bit will be my main reason for not buying any semi-autos after July 1. Not because I'm nuts and would fail a fair and accurate mental health check, but because there is a lot of room for abuse when we go down that road.
I can confirm the 80% lowers were outlawed, signed a couple of weeks ago by Inslee, a lot more was also signed in, gun owners have been taking a real beating in Wa.
Post by: SteelheadTed on June 03, 2019, 12:13:41 PM
I've always felt like I should want an AR but never actually wanted one. I've wanted to try my hand at building one but not super interested in owning one. Every few years I get a chance to shoot someone else's and it's great but I don't feel like racing out to buy my own. At some point this will change and I'll cross over into "I want my own" territory and when that day does come I'll grumble about all the hoops and BS it takes to get one.
Pretty much exactly where I’m at.
Buy a stripped lower its less than $100 and everything else is just parts!
For those of us not otherwise that familiar with AR's, is there a particular brand you would recommend? Website?
Post by: SteelheadTed on June 03, 2019, 12:17:13 PM
I took an overtime check and some extra and bought 10/22's for each grandkid I have.
It's a pretty pathetic way to make law when people with no knowledge about firearms and guns can vote our rights away.
It's like being a hound hunter all over again.
Since they are going to make laws regardless, I'd rather have folks who don't know what they are talking about making the laws so that they have less teeth.
Post by: Special T on June 03, 2019, 01:34:52 PM
https://palmettostatearmory.comI've always felt like I should want an AR but never actually wanted one. I've wanted to try my hand at building one but not super interested in owning one. Every few years I get a chance to shoot someone else's and it's great but I don't feel like racing out to buy my own. At some point this will change and I'll cross over into "I want my own" territory and when that day does come I'll grumble about all the hoops and BS it takes to get one.
Pretty much exactly where I’m at.
Buy a stripped lower its less than $100 and everything else is just parts!
For those of us not otherwise that familiar with AR's, is there a particular brand you would recommend? Website?
Now wouldn't necessarily say that all the products these guys make are great, but I think you can get an ok budget deal from them. Several of my friends have used different components from them, and they make LOTS of lowers for different companies. Purchasing a blank lower is probably the most important thing you can do because it gets you in before this stupid law.
The reason why ARs are so cool is the modular nature of them.
I will let others debate which AR brands are the best, since it always seems that some suppliers is doing premium work, or another has poor QC.
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Post by: SGTDuffman on June 03, 2019, 05:36:51 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 03, 2019, 06:30:36 PM
So I figured this would help, here is the new transfer application that will be filled out with any semi auto rifles and pistol transfers.
Still lots of stuff we don't know as dealers and buyers as they are still adding and changing stuff.
https://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652001a.pdf
Post by: gasman on June 04, 2019, 07:05:06 PM
I’ve still seen nothing in any of these laws or proposed laws that would affect anyone’s ability to build their own AR from a stripped lower. Because they are stripped they are not classified as a rifle or a pistol, they are “other”. They are other because the dealer doesn’t know if you’re going to build it into a rifle or a pistol. Because they are a manufacturered lower they have a serial number and skirt the “untraceable” verbiage. You still have to fill out the ATF form 4473, but when your FFL enters it, it is an “other” firearm.
Not 100% correct..... ( to my understanding)
When purchasing an AR Shipped lower, you are to let the seller know if it is going to be used as a pistol or riffle. If built as a pistol, then the same procedure as buying a pistol must be followed. And vice versa if building a riffle.
A person can actually be more trouble if your lower is register a riffle, but meets the criteria of a pistol.
Post by: Yondering on June 04, 2019, 09:19:01 PM
Not 100% correct..... ( to my understanding)
When purchasing an AR Shipped lower, you are to let the seller know if it is going to be used as a pistol or riffle. If built as a pistol, then the same procedure as buying a pistol must be followed. And vice versa if building a riffle.
A person can actually be more trouble if your lower is register a riffle, but meets the criteria of a pistol.
When did this change, and can you link to the source? That definitely is not how it's done right now, but maybe something new coming up?
Post by: gasman on June 05, 2019, 05:35:47 PM
Not 100% correct..... ( to my understanding)
When purchasing an AR Shipped lower, you are to let the seller know if it is going to be used as a pistol or riffle. If built as a pistol, then the same procedure as buying a pistol must be followed. And vice versa if building a riffle.
A person can actually be more trouble if your lower is register a riffle, but meets the criteria of a pistol.
When did this change, and can you link to the source? That definitely is not how it's done right now, but maybe something new coming up?
Every stripped lower I have purchased, I was asked if it was for riffle or pistol. When I asked "Dose it matter", the answer I got was "Hell Yes, any AR built specifically to be a pistol, must be registered as a pistol". If you are caught with an AR registered as a riffle that meets criteria to be classified as a pistol, you can face federal charges.
Built my first AR at least 5 years ago, and was asked then, so not new.......Was also asked last week when I picked up an AR10 stripped lower.
Post by: Yondering on June 05, 2019, 07:19:40 PM
Every stripped lower I have purchased, I was asked if it was for riffle or pistol. When I asked "Dose it matter", the answer I got was "Hell Yes, any AR built specifically to be a pistol, must be registered as a pistol". If you are caught with an AR registered as a riffle that meets criteria to be classified as a pistol, you can face federal charges.
Built my first AR at least 5 years ago, and was asked then, so not new.......Was also asked last week when I picked up an AR10 stripped lower.
Your dealer is doing it wrong then. A stripped lower is transferred as "other", not as a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. You do NOT have to tell the seller or anyone involved with the background check if you'll be assembling it as a rifle or pistol.
And yes, I think most of us are aware that a lower sold as a rifle cannot be used as a pistol - it becomes an SBR and requires NFA paperwork. A lower sold as "other" or as a pistol can be used either way.
Post by: konradcountry on June 06, 2019, 10:04:42 PM
Not 100% correct..... ( to my understanding)
When purchasing an AR Shipped lower, you are to let the seller know if it is going to be used as a pistol or riffle. If built as a pistol, then the same procedure as buying a pistol must be followed. And vice versa if building a riffle.
A person can actually be more trouble if your lower is register a riffle, but meets the criteria of a pistol.
When did this change, and can you link to the source? That definitely is not how it's done right now, but maybe something new coming up?
Every stripped lower I have purchased, I was asked if it was for riffle or pistol. When I asked "Dose it matter", the answer I got was "Hell Yes, any AR built specifically to be a pistol, must be registered as a pistol". If you are caught with an AR registered as a riffle that meets criteria to be classified as a pistol, you can face federal charges.
Built my first AR at least 5 years ago, and was asked then, so not new.......Was also asked last week when I picked up an AR10 stripped lower.
What if you said....I'm not going to do anything with it. Wouldn't they have to transfer it to you as other? Maybe an FFL can answer this.
Post by: Yondering on June 06, 2019, 10:53:33 PM
Post by: konradcountry on June 07, 2019, 03:23:13 AM
Again, a new lower receiver should not be transferred as a pistol or as a rifle, it is an "other".
I get that but I have also heard of shops asking.
I'm assuming it is for liability reasons, right or wrong. They are probably trying to avoid a scenario where you turn it into a pistol and the state later comes back with the serial and asks why a pistol transfer didn't occur.
Post by: fowl smacker on June 07, 2019, 05:04:02 AM
A lower sold as a pistol CAN'T be used either way. If you plan on turning it into an SBR, you have to get a tax stamp and register that serial # as an SBR. So technically it can, but you have more steps to take.
Every stripped lower I have purchased, I was asked if it was for riffle or pistol. When I asked "Dose it matter", the answer I got was "Hell Yes, any AR built specifically to be a pistol, must be registered as a pistol". If you are caught with an AR registered as a riffle that meets criteria to be classified as a pistol, you can face federal charges.
Built my first AR at least 5 years ago, and was asked then, so not new.......Was also asked last week when I picked up an AR10 stripped lower.
Your dealer is doing it wrong then. A stripped lower is transferred as "other", not as a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. You do NOT have to tell the seller or anyone involved with the background check if you'll be assembling it as a rifle or pistol.
And yes, I think most of us are aware that a lower sold as a rifle cannot be used as a pistol - it becomes an SBR and requires NFA paperwork. A lower sold as "other" or as a pistol can be used either way.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 07, 2019, 05:59:07 AM
Post by: Yondering on June 07, 2019, 08:46:54 AM
A lower sold as a pistol CAN'T be used either way. If you plan on turning it into an SBR, you have to get a tax stamp and register that serial # as an SBR. So technically it can, but you have more steps to take.
Every stripped lower I have purchased, I was asked if it was for riffle or pistol. When I asked "Dose it matter", the answer I got was "Hell Yes, any AR built specifically to be a pistol, must be registered as a pistol". If you are caught with an AR registered as a riffle that meets criteria to be classified as a pistol, you can face federal charges.
Built my first AR at least 5 years ago, and was asked then, so not new.......Was also asked last week when I picked up an AR10 stripped lower.
Your dealer is doing it wrong then. A stripped lower is transferred as "other", not as a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. You do NOT have to tell the seller or anyone involved with the background check if you'll be assembling it as a rifle or pistol.
And yes, I think most of us are aware that a lower sold as a rifle cannot be used as a pistol - it becomes an SBR and requires NFA paperwork. A lower sold as "other" or as a pistol can be used either way.
I see your confusion, but I was trying to say a lower sold as a pistol can be used as a pistol or a rifle, either way. Anything NFA obviously requires NFA paperwork.
Even complete lowers with a buttstock attached should be transferred as "other"; they are not complete rifles. All of my lower transfers have gone that way, by a couple different dealers who took the time to research what they're doing.
Post by: JohnVH on June 07, 2019, 09:01:55 AM
Post by: grundy53 on June 07, 2019, 10:42:27 AM
Correct. I've had shops ask if it was going to be a rifle or pistol. I've also had shops automatically do other. Probably just store policy if they ask.
Every stripped lower I have purchased, I was asked if it was for riffle or pistol. When I asked "Dose it matter", the answer I got was "Hell Yes, any AR built specifically to be a pistol, must be registered as a pistol". If you are caught with an AR registered as a riffle that meets criteria to be classified as a pistol, you can face federal charges.
Built my first AR at least 5 years ago, and was asked then, so not new.......Was also asked last week when I picked up an AR10 stripped lower.
Your dealer is doing it wrong then. A stripped lower is transferred as "other", not as a rifle, pistol, or shotgun. You do NOT have to tell the seller or anyone involved with the background check if you'll be assembling it as a rifle or pistol.
And yes, I think most of us are aware that a lower sold as a rifle cannot be used as a pistol - it becomes an SBR and requires NFA paperwork. A lower sold as "other" or as a pistol can be used either way.
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Post by: woodswalker on June 07, 2019, 10:52:03 AM
I-1639 is just a few weeks away, and the state finally released their new Firearm Transfer Application. To say we're frustrated is an understatement.
It demonstrates a clear lack of leadership from the FBI, WA AG's office, and/or the WA DOL. They are clearly not communicating. The form from the DOL doesn't allow us to do the things the AG and FBI say we need to do. Further, we have been supplying local law enforcement with what little info we're getting because the state hasn't deemed it necessary to keep them updated as to their role in this mess.
What do we have for info? The FBI says we can no longer do instant checks on semi-automatic rifles, handguns, and frames/receivers. They need to be submitted to local law enforcement. The state says we need to fill out their transfer form and physically mail it to the law enforcement agency. The agency is supposed to do the background check, and then physically mail it back. It cannot be done in less than 30 days (per an official release by King County). At 30 days, the paperwork expires. So either nobody will get their guns, or everybody will and we won't find out until later whether they legally should have. Again, there's no guidance from the state on this.
This all assumes that we could properly submit the form for a background check in the first place. We can't. The FBI says we can't use their system for a check on a receiver. The state form doesn't have a section for a receiver. We are three weeks out, and nobody has a mechanism in place for us to run a background check on a receiver. Do we not sell them? Are they no longer subject to a background check? Somebody needs to own this, but nobody currently is.
While I'm griping about the forms, let's dig into that a bit deeper. There's a box the purchaser must check on the state form, acknowledging that it's a forfeiture of HIPPA privacy. Handguns are just supposed to be for that instant. Semi-automatic rifles would be permanent. But there's only one box to check. So is it one, the other, both, or neither? Nobody knows. The form to request information is even more odd. The DOL says their website and database won't be ready for a year, and there's no funding or labor at all for it right now. Yet, this form is supposed to be processed by these imaginary employees using a website that doesn't exist, so you can see what guns the state thinks you own. Right.
Oh, and don't forget these classes you're supposed to take before buying a semi-automatic rifle. What classes count? No idea. Who can teach them? No idea. What test do you take and what forms do you fill out? No idea. What website do we check to make sure you did what you're supposed to do? It's the one the DOL says won't be done for a year.
The most frustrating part is that this is not even an attempt at curbing crime. Not one dollar or one minute of time is directed towards crime or criminals. This will destroy a background check system that works pretty darn well. The voters who pushed this through have wrecked a functional background check system, and virtually guaranteed that more bad guys will get guns. July 1 is going to be an ugly day in Washington.
Grumpys Gun Repair.
Post by: bigdave on June 07, 2019, 11:01:03 AM
Post by: bearpaw on June 07, 2019, 11:54:57 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 07, 2019, 12:01:59 PM
Post by: bearpaw on June 07, 2019, 12:05:46 PM
Post by: Special T on June 07, 2019, 12:26:08 PM
$30 lower
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Post by: Yondering on June 07, 2019, 12:58:47 PM
From Talos Tactical LLC:
I-1639 is just a few weeks away, and the state finally released their new Firearm Transfer Application. To say we're frustrated is an understatement.
It demonstrates a clear lack of leadership from the FBI, WA AG's office, and/or the WA DOL. They are clearly not communicating. The form from the DOL doesn't allow us to do the things the AG and FBI say we need to do. Further, we have been supplying local law enforcement with what little info we're getting because the state hasn't deemed it necessary to keep them updated as to their role in this mess.
What do we have for info? The FBI says we can no longer do instant checks on semi-automatic rifles, handguns, and frames/receivers. They need to be submitted to local law enforcement. The state says we need to fill out their transfer form and physically mail it to the law enforcement agency. The agency is supposed to do the background check, and then physically mail it back. It cannot be done in less than 30 days (per an official release by King County). At 30 days, the paperwork expires. So either nobody will get their guns, or everybody will and we won't find out until later whether they legally should have. Again, there's no guidance from the state on this.
This all assumes that we could properly submit the form for a background check in the first place. We can't. The FBI says we can't use their system for a check on a receiver. The state form doesn't have a section for a receiver. We are three weeks out, and nobody has a mechanism in place for us to run a background check on a receiver. Do we not sell them? Are they no longer subject to a background check? Somebody needs to own this, but nobody currently is.
While I'm griping about the forms, let's dig into that a bit deeper. There's a box the purchaser must check on the state form, acknowledging that it's a forfeiture of HIPPA privacy. Handguns are just supposed to be for that instant. Semi-automatic rifles would be permanent. But there's only one box to check. So is it one, the other, both, or neither? Nobody knows. The form to request information is even more odd. The DOL says their website and database won't be ready for a year, and there's no funding or labor at all for it right now. Yet, this form is supposed to be processed by these imaginary employees using a website that doesn't exist, so you can see what guns the state thinks you own. Right.
Oh, and don't forget these classes you're supposed to take before buying a semi-automatic rifle. What classes count? No idea. Who can teach them? No idea. What test do you take and what forms do you fill out? No idea. What website do we check to make sure you did what you're supposed to do? It's the one the DOL says won't be done for a year.
The most frustrating part is that this is not even an attempt at curbing crime. Not one dollar or one minute of time is directed towards crime or criminals. This will destroy a background check system that works pretty darn well. The voters who pushed this through have wrecked a functional background check system, and virtually guaranteed that more bad guys will get guns. July 1 is going to be an ugly day in Washington.
Grumpys Gun Repair.
Woodswalker, thanks for posting that. It's a good representation of the frustrations a lot of us are having with this new law.
The HIPPA privacy forfeiture is a big deal to me. I don't have anything to hide there, but forfeiture of that privacy is a huge open door to all sorts of abuse by and of the system.
That HIPPA thing is the main reason I'm just done with buying firearms in this state; I'm trying to get all the handguns I might want before July 1, and will be done at that point. Surprisingly though, it doesn't look like most people are thinking of it that way; handguns on the various classified forums in this state don't seem to be selling well (including one I'm trying to sell), and I've heard several people talking about buying one "later in the summer". Is it not obvious to everyone how bad the situation really is?
Post by: woodswalker on June 07, 2019, 01:26:16 PM
From Talos Tactical LLC:
I-1639 is just a few weeks away, and the state finally released their new Firearm Transfer Application. To say we're frustrated is an understatement.
It demonstrates a clear lack of leadership from the FBI, WA AG's office, and/or the WA DOL. They are clearly not communicating. The form from the DOL doesn't allow us to do the things the AG and FBI say we need to do. Further, we have been supplying local law enforcement with what little info we're getting because the state hasn't deemed it necessary to keep them updated as to their role in this mess.
What do we have for info? The FBI says we can no longer do instant checks on semi-automatic rifles, handguns, and frames/receivers. They need to be submitted to local law enforcement. The state says we need to fill out their transfer form and physically mail it to the law enforcement agency. The agency is supposed to do the background check, and then physically mail it back. It cannot be done in less than 30 days (per an official release by King County). At 30 days, the paperwork expires. So either nobody will get their guns, or everybody will and we won't find out until later whether they legally should have. Again, there's no guidance from the state on this.
This all assumes that we could properly submit the form for a background check in the first place. We can't. The FBI says we can't use their system for a check on a receiver. The state form doesn't have a section for a receiver. We are three weeks out, and nobody has a mechanism in place for us to run a background check on a receiver. Do we not sell them? Are they no longer subject to a background check? Somebody needs to own this, but nobody currently is.
While I'm griping about the forms, let's dig into that a bit deeper. There's a box the purchaser must check on the state form, acknowledging that it's a forfeiture of HIPPA privacy. Handguns are just supposed to be for that instant. Semi-automatic rifles would be permanent. But there's only one box to check. So is it one, the other, both, or neither? Nobody knows. The form to request information is even more odd. The DOL says their website and database won't be ready for a year, and there's no funding or labor at all for it right now. Yet, this form is supposed to be processed by these imaginary employees using a website that doesn't exist, so you can see what guns the state thinks you own. Right.
Oh, and don't forget these classes you're supposed to take before buying a semi-automatic rifle. What classes count? No idea. Who can teach them? No idea. What test do you take and what forms do you fill out? No idea. What website do we check to make sure you did what you're supposed to do? It's the one the DOL says won't be done for a year.
The most frustrating part is that this is not even an attempt at curbing crime. Not one dollar or one minute of time is directed towards crime or criminals. This will destroy a background check system that works pretty darn well. The voters who pushed this through have wrecked a functional background check system, and virtually guaranteed that more bad guys will get guns. July 1 is going to be an ugly day in Washington.
Grumpys Gun Repair.
Woodswalker, thanks for posting that. It's a good representation of the frustrations a lot of us are having with this new law.
The HIPPA privacy forfeiture is a big deal to me. I don't have anything to hide there, but forfeiture of that privacy is a huge open door to all sorts of abuse by and of the system.
That HIPPA thing is the main reason I'm just done with buying firearms in this state; I'm trying to get all the handguns I might want before July 1, and will be done at that point. Surprisingly though, it doesn't look like most people are thinking of it that way; handguns on the various classified forums in this state don't seem to be selling well (including one I'm trying to sell), and I've heard several people talking about buying one "later in the summer". Is it not obvious to everyone how bad the situation really is?
I have a few inbound, one on this forum I am trying to raise the funds to pick up and I will be transferring all shop stock in the effected categories into my personal possession. Any receivers ( ARs, 10-22 clones, bolt receivers levers), any handguns (including some shop projects) and any semi-auto long guns (have to figure out what to do with the semi-auto shotgun i am holding for WHEIA). That way they are owned and I won’t have stock in limbo that I can’t even give to myself. i have more than one customer who really doesn't understand the gravity of the situation.
Grumpys Gun Repair - Aaron
Post by: woodswalker on June 07, 2019, 03:02:59 PM
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar-15-lower-safe-fire-1728.html
$30 lower
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Be good to have a stash.
Post by: Special T on June 07, 2019, 03:16:07 PM
I didnt realize the HIPPA problem was also pistols.From Talos Tactical LLC:
I-1639 is just a few weeks away, and the state finally released their new Firearm Transfer Application. To say we're frustrated is an understatement.
It demonstrates a clear lack of leadership from the FBI, WA AG's office, and/or the WA DOL. They are clearly not communicating. The form from the DOL doesn't allow us to do the things the AG and FBI say we need to do. Further, we have been supplying local law enforcement with what little info we're getting because the state hasn't deemed it necessary to keep them updated as to their role in this mess.
What do we have for info? The FBI says we can no longer do instant checks on semi-automatic rifles, handguns, and frames/receivers. They need to be submitted to local law enforcement. The state says we need to fill out their transfer form and physically mail it to the law enforcement agency. The agency is supposed to do the background check, and then physically mail it back. It cannot be done in less than 30 days (per an official release by King County). At 30 days, the paperwork expires. So either nobody will get their guns, or everybody will and we won't find out until later whether they legally should have. Again, there's no guidance from the state on this.
This all assumes that we could properly submit the form for a background check in the first place. We can't. The FBI says we can't use their system for a check on a receiver. The state form doesn't have a section for a receiver. We are three weeks out, and nobody has a mechanism in place for us to run a background check on a receiver. Do we not sell them? Are they no longer subject to a background check? Somebody needs to own this, but nobody currently is.
While I'm griping about the forms, let's dig into that a bit deeper. There's a box the purchaser must check on the state form, acknowledging that it's a forfeiture of HIPPA privacy. Handguns are just supposed to be for that instant. Semi-automatic rifles would be permanent. But there's only one box to check. So is it one, the other, both, or neither? Nobody knows. The form to request information is even more odd. The DOL says their website and database won't be ready for a year, and there's no funding or labor at all for it right now. Yet, this form is supposed to be processed by these imaginary employees using a website that doesn't exist, so you can see what guns the state thinks you own. Right.
Oh, and don't forget these classes you're supposed to take before buying a semi-automatic rifle. What classes count? No idea. Who can teach them? No idea. What test do you take and what forms do you fill out? No idea. What website do we check to make sure you did what you're supposed to do? It's the one the DOL says won't be done for a year.
The most frustrating part is that this is not even an attempt at curbing crime. Not one dollar or one minute of time is directed towards crime or criminals. This will destroy a background check system that works pretty darn well. The voters who pushed this through have wrecked a functional background check system, and virtually guaranteed that more bad guys will get guns. July 1 is going to be an ugly day in Washington.
Grumpys Gun Repair.
Woodswalker, thanks for posting that. It's a good representation of the frustrations a lot of us are having with this new law.
The HIPPA privacy forfeiture is a big deal to me. I don't have anything to hide there, but forfeiture of that privacy is a huge open door to all sorts of abuse by and of the system.
That HIPPA thing is the main reason I'm just done with buying firearms in this state; I'm trying to get all the handguns I might want before July 1, and will be done at that point. Surprisingly though, it doesn't look like most people are thinking of it that way; handguns on the various classified forums in this state don't seem to be selling well (including one I'm trying to sell), and I've heard several people talking about buying one "later in the summer". Is it not obvious to everyone how bad the situation really is?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Cougartail on June 07, 2019, 04:21:47 PM
Post by: tritt007 on June 07, 2019, 04:40:02 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 07, 2019, 06:51:06 PM
Post by: Yondering on June 07, 2019, 08:45:05 PM
I didnt realize the HIPPA problem was also pistols.
I didn't either until a few weeks ago. I think a lot of people don't.
I posted a link with the new transfer paperwork. It answers a lot of questions
Yup, from your link - section C, question 4.
Here it is again for those who missed it. This is a big deal guys. https://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652001a.pdf (https://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652001a.pdf)
Post by: konradcountry on June 08, 2019, 07:39:28 AM
You guys are still missing the point. It’s NOT sold as a rifle or a pistol. Unless you buy a complete lower. If it is stripped it is sold as “other”. It is not a pistol. It is not a rifle. How you built it decides.
No they aren't missing the point because some shops actually require the purchaser to choose and then it is sold as a rifle or pistol.
What people should do in such cases is state that they plan on putting it in the safe and would like it transferred as other.
Post by: konradcountry on June 08, 2019, 07:50:09 AM
I was told no signing over medical rights is required for pistol purchases ? By a sporting systems employee.
No it's in the text of 1639.
You're giving the state permission to look at your medical records annually. Which records exactly? 1639 doesn't specify which means they can do whatever they want.
There is also no criteria for what would be a violation. So you could go see a counselor for depression and the state could decide that you aren't fit to own a handgun or semi-auto rifle.
1639 is some of the worst anti-gun legislation this country as seen. It's a backdoor registry and gives the state unlimited access to your medical records. However it was sold to voters as just additional requirements for storing guns and buying AR type rifles.
Post by: Yondering on June 08, 2019, 01:19:31 PM
You guys are still missing the point. It’s NOT sold as a rifle or a pistol. Unless you buy a complete lower. If it is stripped it is sold as “other”. It is not a pistol. It is not a rifle. How you built it decides.
No they aren't missing the point because some shops actually require the purchaser to choose and then it is sold as a rifle or pistol.
What people should do in such cases is state that they plan on putting it in the safe and would like it transferred as other.
I think the point is those shops are not following the law and they're doing it incorrectly. You shouldn't have to tell them anything about your intentions with it; a lower receiver is neither a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, and should not be transferred as any of those.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 08, 2019, 02:01:17 PM
Post by: konradcountry on June 08, 2019, 08:28:31 PM
You guys are still missing the point. It’s NOT sold as a rifle or a pistol. Unless you buy a complete lower. If it is stripped it is sold as “other”. It is not a pistol. It is not a rifle. How you built it decides.
No they aren't missing the point because some shops actually require the purchaser to choose and then it is sold as a rifle or pistol.
What people should do in such cases is state that they plan on putting it in the safe and would like it transferred as other.
I think the point is those shops are not following the law and they're doing it incorrectly. You shouldn't have to tell them anything about your intentions with it; a lower receiver is neither a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, and should not be transferred as any of those.
I would bet it is actually legal for them to ask and then transfer as a rifle or pistol. I'm not saying it is right or necessary but my guess is that it is legal and they do it for liability reasons.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 08, 2019, 10:13:24 PM
You guys are still missing the point. It’s NOT sold as a rifle or a pistol. Unless you buy a complete lower. If it is stripped it is sold as “other”. It is not a pistol. It is not a rifle. How you built it decides.
No they aren't missing the point because some shops actually require the purchaser to choose and then it is sold as a rifle or pistol.
What people should do in such cases is state that they plan on putting it in the safe and would like it transferred as other.
I think the point is those shops are not following the law and they're doing it incorrectly. You shouldn't have to tell them anything about your intentions with it; a lower receiver is neither a rifle, pistol, or shotgun, and should not be transferred as any of those.
I would bet it is actually legal for them to ask and then transfer as a rifle or pistol. I'm not saying it is right or necessary but my guess is that it is legal and they do it for liability reasons.
Post by: konradcountry on June 09, 2019, 08:06:36 AM
It is not. It’s not a rifle or a pistol. It’s other. It’s a part that can become either in a matter of seconds by swapping uppers. It can become a shotgun or a bolt action rifle too, or all of the above. Pop the pins, swap the upper, and all of the sudden it’s no longer a rifle, or a pistol. If your dealer is selling them as something else, your dealer doesn’t know what they’re doing. That’s not a liability they should be taking. What if you change your mind? They gonna come over and watch you make it to ensure what you make is a pistol or not? If they’re marking it as rifle or pistol on the form, they’re filling out the paperwork incorrectly. Page 5 of the ATF Form 4473, Part B, Question 16, tells you how to fill it out. Frames and receivers = other.
Yes we get how it is normally transferred and I never said my dealer does this. The question is why some dealers do this and whether or not it is legal.
Just because an atf form states it should be "other" does not mean it is illegal for them to do this.
This happens in other states so it is most likely legal even if it shouldn't be. From what I have it is standard procedure in California to mark it is a rifle.
Post by: Windwalker on June 09, 2019, 11:29:28 AM
It is not on the shop to decide. It is “other” period. There are so many different kinds of uppers made to attach to an AR lower, it could be a pistol, a rifle, a shotgun, a bolt action, or all of the above. As long as you don’t make illegal combination of parts like an SBR or SBS, you can turn an AR lower into anything you want, with the same lower, just by changing uppers. That’s why they’re the best selling guns in America.:yeah:
Picked up 2 more “others” yesterday.
My understanding is they will not be affected but I’m a sucker for excuses to buy more.
Imagine builder workshops are going to become very popular.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 09, 2019, 01:06:07 PM
Post by: konradcountry on June 09, 2019, 04:33:28 PM
It’s a violation of 27 CFR 478.21 (a)-(b), which is the third most commonly cited violation during audits according to the ATF.
Well I'm not convinced it counts as incorrectly filling out a form.
I just read that California shops normally sell them as rifle and not other. So I find it hard to believe that the entire state is breaking the law.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 09, 2019, 05:10:40 PM
https://www.atf.gov/file/60686/download
Post by: Windwalker on June 09, 2019, 07:41:20 PM
It would be handy to have a summary and any clarification.
Feel free to correct or edit and see if we can cobble together a reasonable understanding.
What is correct or needs edited?
1) Effective January 1, 2019 Purchasers of All semi-auto rifles will be required to at least 21yrs.
Unchanged- 21yrs old to purchase a frame or receiver
Unchanged- 21yrs old to purchase ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.
Unchanged- 18 or older for other ammo.
2) All semi-auto rifles (and handguns by default) fall under the new 'enhanced' background check/waiting period purview of I-1639 & require a 10 business day wait.
CCP will no longer qualify for an instant check after July 1.
3) Will waive their HIPPA rights when buying semi-auto rifles/handguns.
4) Buying ANY semi-automatic rifle requires proof of training for I-1639 compliance. And no exemptions for military, law enforcement or instructors.
(question how non-resident active duty military stationed in WA State- are affected? 18 year olds can fight for this country but not buy lesser guns than they fight with?)
5) Some polymer lowers will be outlawed.
6) Aluminum lowers are legal and background checks unchanged. * Note: DOL (at this time) has no provision to process an 'OTHER' transaction.
7) Aluminum 80% lowers can be bought by anyone, any age.
#8) It is illegal to buy handguns, receivers and now semi-auto rifles out of state. They must be sent to an IN-state FFL and processed per WA state law.
9) Non-residents see #8
10) The NRA/SAF are all over this- the lawsuit has survived the motion to dismiss. Now it's being scheduled for hearings. There are 2 injunction requests within the existing lawsuit and another emergency relief order. Keep in mind It's taken six months just to get to this point so whatever happens it will not be soon. Sporting Systems Youtube and Facebook page posts weekly updates. They are the lead plaintiff suing the state.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 09, 2019, 07:59:22 PM
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2019, 08:32:16 PM
If I feel the need 80 percent all the way.
Post by: Yondering on June 09, 2019, 08:38:52 PM
Yes I will be done buying .I refuse to register with the dmv .
If I feel the need 80 percent all the way.
The DMV issues drivers licenses. LOL.
80% receivers will be illegal to purchase after July 1, so you're out of luck there as well.
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2019, 08:54:57 PM
Excuse me I guess it's your sheriff office not dmv .Yes I will be done buying .I refuse to register with the dmv .
If I feel the need 80 percent all the way.
The DMV issues drivers licenses. LOL.
80% receivers will be illegal to purchase after July 1, so you're out of luck there as well.
Now you show me where it's says no 80 percent lowers .since you seem to be an expert.
Post by: Windwalker on June 09, 2019, 09:15:41 PM
Yes I will be done buying .I refuse to register with the dmv .
If I feel the need 80 percent all the way.
The DMV issues drivers licenses. LOL.
80% receivers will be illegal to purchase after July 1, so you're out of luck there as well.
“Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.”
“Untraceable firearm means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.”
HB 1739 makes it illegal to manufacture with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.
(Doing so would make you a manufacturer – someone who needs a Federal Firearms License (FFL)
This was already illegal per the Gun Control Act of 1968. Federal law always said you can build a gun at home, but only for personal use.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use
[18 U.S.C. 922(o), (p) and (r); 26 U.S.C. 5822; 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]
The legislation’s wording doesn’t outright ban “untraceable firearms”. 80% lowers aren’t considered firearms until they’re built.
As long as you’re building your 80% lower and AR-15 with no intent of selling it, you can still build one in Washington.
The legislation passed doesn’t appear to cover 80 percent lowers at all, in fact – only the firearms built using them.
That said- Polymer 80% lowers may be illegal
Once an 80% lower is machined, it’s considered a firearm. But once machined, that polymer “firearm” will not have the necessary 3.7 ounces of steel present that the legislation requires to be legal.
Post by: hunter399 on June 09, 2019, 09:23:51 PM
Ya didn't say I had intended to sell a 80 percent.Yes I will be done buying .I refuse to register with the dmv .
If I feel the need 80 percent all the way.
The DMV issues drivers licenses. LOL.
80% receivers will be illegal to purchase after July 1, so you're out of luck there as well.
“Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.”
“Untraceable firearm means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.”
HB 1739 makes it illegal to manufacture with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.
This was already illegal per the Gun Control Act of 1968. Federal law always said you can build a gun at home, but only for personal use.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-individual-need-license-make-firearm-personal-use
[18 U.S.C. 922(o), (p) and (r); 26 U.S.C. 5822; 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]
You can’t intend to sell it. Doing so would make you a manufacturer – someone who need a Federal Firearms License (FFL).
The legislation’s wording doesn’t outright ban “untraceable firearms”. 80% lowers aren’t considered firearms until they’re built.
As long as you’re building your 80% lower and AR-15 with no intent of selling it, you can still build one in Washington.
The legislation passed doesn’t appear to cover 80 percent lowers at all, in fact – only the firearms built using them.
That said- Polymer 80% lowers may be illegal
Once an 80% lower is machined, it’s considered a firearm. But once machined, that polymer “firearm” will not have the necessary 3.7 ounces of steel present that the legislation requires to be legal.
Nothing in the new law covers 80 percent lowers , and are not considered a firearm till finished.
Post by: Windwalker on June 09, 2019, 10:02:04 PM
There are too many unanswered questions and undoubtedly questions that haven't been thought of yet.
Hoping this gets fleshed out here as well as can be expected with all the knowledgeable folks that frequent this site.
If enough chime in to steer this in the right direction, end result will provide some insight of what to expect.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 10, 2019, 11:19:33 AM
Post by: Special T on June 10, 2019, 11:52:47 AM
The 3.7oz of steel or steel alloy is for the firearm, not the frame. They define a firearm as being capable of firing a projectile too. So whatever they’re trying to do with that bill, which I suspect is to ban polymer 80s, isn’t actually going to do anything except make them feel better. It’s already prohibited to sell a firearm you produced from an 80% lower under federal law, and all the little caveats they put in there don’t actually effect anything because of how it was written. This point is all just hypothetical though because that bill has not yet passed.So do you think this is to do away with the all polymer printed handguns?
I'm assuming that those 80%glock builds have enough steel since the barrel and slide are metal.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Post by: Windwalker on June 10, 2019, 04:08:35 PM
‘‘firearm’’ does not include the frame or receiver of any such weapon-
‘major component’’ means, with respect to a firearm, the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm.
(A) that, after removal of grips, stocks, and magazines, is not as detectable as the Security Exemplar, by walk-through metal detectors calibrated and operated to detect the Security Exemplar; or
(B) any major component of which, when subjected to inspection by the types of x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component.
The object suitable for testing and calibrating metal detectors is constructed of 3.7 ounces of material type 17–4 PH stainless steel in a shape resembling a handgun.
The questionable slice of 1739 that casts a doubt is - (comma or)
, or the frame or receiver of the firearm would not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the part when examined by the types of X-ray machines commonly used at airports.
"Undetectable firearm"- by definition 'or the frame or receiver' is out of context and not applicable.
Possibly included it to see what sticks knowing it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 10, 2019, 08:47:31 PM
The undetectable portion talks about the 3.7oz of steel or steel alloy requirement, but it refers to the firearm, which they define as:
"Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder. "Firearm" does not include a flare gun or other pyrotechnic visual distress signaling device, or a powder-actuated tool or other device designed solely to be used for construction purposes."
""Undetectable firearm" means any firearm that is not as detectable as 3.7 ounces of 17-4 PH stainless steel by walk-through metal detectors or magnetometers commonly used at airports or any firearm where the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm would not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the part when examined by the types of X-ray machines commonly used at airports."
Since they are referring to the completed gun, I wouldn't worry about having the 3.7oz of steel or steel alloy in the frame alone. It is odd that they specify a certain type of stainless steel though. The intent for this term is to prevent them from bypassing metal detectors. Which will never happen with any gun because of all the other metal parts (barrels, slides, magazines, springs, extractors, ejectors, trigger bars/connectors, pins, etc.). These legislators are stuck in 1983 and are just now getting around to the fear and paranoia surrounding polymer framed guns when they came out. If these people had any clue how a gun works or ever handled one in their lives, they'd know how ignorant they look and sound. Ignorance is bliss.
""Untraceable firearm" means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer."
Because they chose the term "firearm" several times, which they defined above, I don't see how this law changes anything as it pertains to 80% lowers. They are not firearms. Whats more, I don't see how they could possibly enforce this law. Precisely because an 80% lower is not a firearm, it can be shipped directly to your front door. I don't see how they could possibly hope to prove the date of manufacture or construction, outside of finding a receipt, and even then, 80% lowers don't require a "federally licensed manufacturer or importer" because they aren't firearms. Seems like another toothless feel good liberal law.
They made some slight changes to the language between the first version and the version our "Governor" signed, with visions of the White House in his head.
I know reading bills is tedious and people don't like to do it, but a down and dirty is to basically skip through everything until you hit an underlined part. That is a change. You can also do a text search for "new section"(these are frequently near the underlined stuff) and find whole passages that have been added. Then refer back to the beginning of the document for definitions of terms used. It can generally be done pretty quickly. They're almost always adding text or passages to an existing framework, and seldom add more than a few paragraphs to something. A lot of what is added is just the terms they've come up with. HB 1739 is a good example. They made these new terms about "undetectable" and "untraceable", so they just insert those into prior passages. For instance:
"(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(a) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle;
(b) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; ((or))
(c) Assemble or repair any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.
2) It is not unlawful for a person to manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, assemble, or repair, or have in possession or under control, a short-barreled rifle, or any part designed or intended solely and exclusively for use in a short- barreled rifle or in converting a weapon into a short-barreled rifle, if the person is in compliance with applicable federal law."
http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2019-20/Pdf/Bills/House%20Passed%20Legislature/1739-S.PL.pdf#page=1
Just for fun.
https://s.abcnews.com/images/WNT/150601_wn_thomas3_16x9_992.jpg
Post by: Windwalker on June 10, 2019, 10:26:45 PM
Is there any leeway for non-resident active duty military stationed in WA State 21 or above to buy a semi-auto?
RCW 9.41.124
Purchasing of rifles and shotguns by nonresidents. (Effective July 1, 2019.)
Residents of a state other than Washington may purchase rifles and shotguns, except those firearms defined as semiautomatic assault rifles, in Washington: PROVIDED, That such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, Title IV, Pub. L. 90-351 as administered by the United States secretary of the treasury: AND PROVIDED FURTHER, That such residents are eligible to purchase or possess such weapons in Washington and in the state in which such persons reside: AND PROVIDED FURTHER, That such residents are subject to the procedures and background checks required by this chapter.
And 18 year olds can fight for this country but not buy a 10/22?
What am I missing.
Post by: konradcountry on June 11, 2019, 07:08:16 AM
I wouldn’t use California as a guide for anything firearms related. And that could be a state law for California. As hard as our legislators are trying, this isn’t California yet. I would follow the pertinent ATF paperwork, ATF guidance, and Federal law.
Well if California dealers can sell them as rifles then the ATF probably doesn't care if Washington dealers do the same.
I'm not saying anyone should comply with dealers that ask. But it is probably legal for them to do this.
Post by: konradcountry on June 11, 2019, 07:10:07 AM
With the realization this is very fluid with misinformation/interpretation debates.
It would be handy to have a summary and any clarification.
Feel free to correct or edit and see if we can cobble together a reasonable understanding.
What is correct or needs edited?
...
6) Aluminum lowers are legal and background checks unchanged. * Note: DOL (at this time) has no provision to process an 'OTHER' transaction.
I read somewhere that this has changed and now there will be a 10 day waiting period with lowers.
Post by: linxx77 on June 11, 2019, 08:24:38 AM
Post by: wadu1 on June 11, 2019, 09:20:16 AM
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 11, 2019, 03:17:21 PM
I wouldn’t use California as a guide for anything firearms related. And that could be a state law for California. As hard as our legislators are trying, this isn’t California yet. I would follow the pertinent ATF paperwork, ATF guidance, and Federal law.
Well if California dealers can sell them as rifles then the ATF probably doesn't care if Washington dealers do the same.
I'm not saying anyone should comply with dealers that ask. But it is probably legal for them to do this.
Post by: Bob33 on June 11, 2019, 03:52:18 PM
Yes I'm done with auto loaders and handguns until they remove HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996) waver requirements. The way I read it and from the NRA/ILA reports and FFL dealers you wave your HIPAA rights to purchase.The waiver of confidentiality with respect to handgun purchases was enacted into law in 1994. RCW 9.41.094 is amended effective July 1 to include assault rifles.
See page 46, section 411: http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/1993-94/Pdf/Bills/Session%20Laws/House/2319-S2.SL.pdf?cite=1994 sp.s. c 7 § 411.
Here is the before and after:
RCW 9.41.094
Waiver of confidentiality. (Effective until July 1, 2019.)
A signed application to purchase a pistol shall constitute a waiver of confidentiality and written request that the health care authority, mental health institutions, and other health care facilities release, to an inquiring court or law enforcement agency, information relevant to the applicant's eligibility to purchase a pistol to an inquiring court or law enforcement agency.
[ 2018 c 201 § 6004; 1994 sp.s. c 7 § 411.]
RCW 9.41.094
Waiver of confidentiality. (Effective July 1, 2019.)
A signed application to purchase a pistol or semiautomatic assault rifle shall constitute a waiver of confidentiality and written request that the health care authority, mental health institutions, and other health care facilities release, to an inquiring court or law enforcement agency, information relevant to the applicant's eligibility to purchase a pistol or semiautomatic assault rifle to an inquiring court or law enforcement agency.
Post by: Cab on June 11, 2019, 04:22:16 PM
FYI: Sporting System is going to have the required class FOR FREE online
Post by: HntnFsh on June 11, 2019, 05:59:49 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 11, 2019, 06:28:15 PM
Online is not a option when handling firearms :chuckle:
The training must be sponsored by a federal, state, county or municipal law enforcement agency, a college or university, a nationally recognized organization that customarily offers firearms training, or a firearms training school with certified instructors.
The training must include instruction on:
Basic firearms safety rules;
Firearms and children, including secure gun storage and talking to children about gun safety;
Firearms and suicide prevention;
Secure gun storage to prevent unauthorized access and use;
Safe handling of firearms; and
State and federal firearms laws, including prohibited firearms transfers.
Post by: Lucky1 on June 11, 2019, 06:49:01 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 11, 2019, 06:56:27 PM
Yet I am very Leary of cash grabbing right now. "people saying pay this take this, this will work and it most likely will NOT"
I am watching this very close. I am sure there is going to be a curriculum/mandatory material and handouts etc for these "said classes" I have not seen any list of the exact organizations that will be recognized. Or any of the teaching material guidelines or information YET.
Post by: Bob33 on June 11, 2019, 07:07:33 PM
There is ZERO CLASSES OFFERED ATM and all these online class claims or people saying they have already done a class YOU HAVE NOT this is what the new info on 1639 says.Instruction in the safe handling of firearms doesn't necessarily have to be done in person. Time will tell what the state comes up with but extensive training in many disciplines is done online.
Online is not a option when handling firearms :chuckle:
The training must be sponsored by a federal, state, county or municipal law enforcement agency, a college or university, a nationally recognized organization that customarily offers firearms training, or a firearms training school with certified instructors.
The training must include instruction on:
Basic firearms safety rules;
Firearms and children, including secure gun storage and talking to children about gun safety;
Firearms and suicide prevention;
Secure gun storage to prevent unauthorized access and use;
Safe handling of firearms; and
State and federal firearms laws, including prohibited firearms transfers.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 11, 2019, 07:24:31 PM
That sounds like hands on handling.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 11, 2019, 07:29:07 PM
However you have to have hands on time with instructors to get the card/certificate.
Post by: CarbonHunter on June 11, 2019, 07:32:36 PM
Post by: aaronoto on June 11, 2019, 07:42:27 PM
Yes there could be physical classes offered but all this online talk is just talk. what I am seeing for a requirement can not be done through a computer.
Yet I am very Leary of cash grabbing right now. "people saying pay this take this, this will work and it most likely will NOT"
I am watching this very close. I am sure there is going to be a curriculum/mandatory material and handouts etc for these "said classes" I have not seen any list of the exact organizations that will be recognized. Or any of the teaching material guidelines or information YET.
Have you heard anything to contrary that what they're offering will not work? As far as I can tell, the state hasn't laid out any other requirements for training other than what you posted above. There is no state agency certifying those that are offering training for 1639, there is no state issued certificate that you get that a gun store can verify that you received training from a legitimate instructor, there is no hands on requirement, there is no time requirement. So really, what's to stop Joe Blow who has taken an NRA class from starting a firearms training school and saying he's a "certified instructor" and offering a 1639 "class" and charging say $20 for a certificate and spending 20 minutes with you going over the bullet points? There are several "instructors" up in Whatcom county that have come out with 1639 classes. They're charging upwards of $150 as well.... I'm waiting for the guy that sets up a website and has you read a page, sign a training certificate that you have received the information, pay a fee, and print a certificate...
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 11, 2019, 08:21:26 PM
I agree it sounds like people are already buying and taking classes and I have seen no exact list of what’s going to be excepted so how can people be offering classes? If we don’t know what’s expected to happen during the class or forums to give out etc. I know as a dealer I already have to now hand out paperwork with each sale.
Like the suicide prevention part with no guide lines on what is to be read or handed out how are these classes covering that area that is said to be part of the requirement during class?
Post by: bobcat on June 12, 2019, 10:44:44 PM
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 12, 2019, 11:11:43 PM
Post by: cmiller85 on June 12, 2019, 11:49:25 PM
Post by: CackleBird98 on June 13, 2019, 03:51:33 AM
Does this apply to revolvers or just pistols? Or all handguns? Anyone know?I believe it applies to all semiautos, shotguns, rifles, pistols, bazookas, missile launchers, etc. Could be wrong tho.
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2019, 06:24:13 AM
Post by: Cab on June 13, 2019, 10:06:33 AM
Where can I find the legal status to the challenges to 1639?
Sporting System has a lot of info on their FB page and have video updates.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 13, 2019, 10:18:03 AM
the certificate is just for semi auto rifles
Post by: Jpmiller on June 13, 2019, 11:56:01 AM
Post by: aaronoto on June 13, 2019, 09:41:40 PM
Where can I find the legal status to the challenges to 1639?
Sporting System has a lot of info on their FB page and have video updates.
They also just posted that they’ll launch a free online training program to meet the 1639 requirements.
Post by: konradcountry on June 14, 2019, 07:51:46 AM
Post by: Cab on June 14, 2019, 10:23:42 AM
Where can I find the legal status to the challenges to 1639?
Sporting System has a lot of info on their FB page and have video updates.
They also just posted that they’ll launch a free online training program to meet the 1639 requirements.
Yea they're good guys, I always enjoy making a stop in there.
Post by: actionshooter on June 15, 2019, 08:00:57 AM
Where can I find the legal status to the challenges to 1639?
Sporting System has a lot of info on their FB page and have video updates.
They also just posted that they’ll launch a free online training program to meet the 1639 requirements.
Yea they're good guys, I always enjoy making a stop in there.
Sporting Systems is a fantastic shop and Dan (owner) is one of the most ardent 2A supporters I have ever met. Without him the current lawsuit against 1639 wouldn't exist.
Here is the current update on 1639
https://www.facebook.com/dmsportingsystems/videos/430217041091645/
Post by: northwesthunter84 on June 18, 2019, 06:53:12 PM
Post by: actionshooter on June 19, 2019, 06:34:44 PM
Post by: Windwalker on June 20, 2019, 01:44:07 AM
More just posted on their Facebook page.
Sporting Systems
Wednesday at 4:04 PM
GREAT NEWS FLASH - “other” firearms being given 1 year extension for background checks at the dealer level. So the lowers can be delivered without crazy waiting periods. Now, we’ll take this fight to the state legislature to be sure they don’t screw it up. We are still going to keep our #F1639 lower sale going, with the intent to sell 6000 lowers in 6 months. Great effort by several parties, including the state Senate Republican Causcus, thank you for making calls Senator Lynda Wilson and the Second Amendment Foundation legal team for driving this home! We saved $$$ for the continued fight on against 1639.
Sporting Systems Fighting for your 2A rights everyday.
Post by: SGTDuffman on June 20, 2019, 05:12:12 AM
Post by: Windwalker on June 21, 2019, 03:40:09 PM
“other” firearms have been given a 1 year extension for background checks at the dealer level.
“Other” transfers & Long Gun transfers (not semi-auto) are same as before. NCIS check.
(One year extension to buy all you can)
Semi auto & Handgun checks will go thru the ‘new’ LEA, 10 business day wait - for intrusive mining of our health record data and re-verify qualification every year in perpetuity……….
Post by: Platensek-po on June 21, 2019, 04:16:31 PM
Post by: Jpmiller on June 21, 2019, 05:17:07 PM
Post by: emac on June 21, 2019, 08:27:37 PM
So if I want to keep my options open it looks like the lower receiver is the only part I need a background check for so if I bought two, one for shorter cartridges and one for longer, I'd be covered for if I change my mind later and I can purchase the rest of the parts and have them come straight to me?Correct
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