Post by: yorketransport on August 26, 2019, 10:14:38 PM
The rifle which was shipped to me was a 27/28 Nosler (28 Nosler necked down to 27, not a true 27 Nosler) built with a 26" X-Caliber barrel on a Rem 700 action in a McMillan Hunter stock. It was almost the exact gun I had planned for the 27 Boondoogle except I was using an ARC Nucleus action instead of the Rem 700. When I got the gun I gave it a once over to make sure everything looked good. I was sent 40 pieces of 3x fired brass and 40 bullets to test, along with the load data from the owner of the rifle. I ran the load data through QuickLoad just to fact check the data I was given and it came up as a stout load, but nothing too crazy. I backed the charge down by .5gr, other than that I matched it exactly, even using the same lot# on the powder (that was pure coincidence). This is the result after the 1st shot I fired from the rifle.
(https://i.imgur.com/le0oj88.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/qHw01Nk.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/tdolFsv.jpg?1)
What we have hear, is a pierced primer which sent gas back into the bolt with enough force to push the firing pin assembly back far enough for it to come out PAST THE BOLT SHROUD and rotate just enough to get stopped there! The cocking piece came back far enough to hit my thumb which was resting on the stock behind the tang. I've never seen this before or heard of this happening.
I immediately called the owner of the rifle to see what was going on. When I asked if there had been anything like this before, he said not to his knowledge, but it had pieced primers before. In fact the rifle had just be returned to him after he sent it back to the smith who built it to have the bolt looked at after it had pieced a primer previously. The owner then told me that there were a couple of fired cases in the box of brass that he sent me and I could take a look at those to see what was happening before. This is what I found.
(https://i.imgur.com/OCPf3oz.jpg?1)
That there is an oversized firing pin hole! Then I measured the firing pin protrusion on the bolt and came up with .072" protrusion! I'm not sure what anyone else considers normal, but I typically go for .040" protrusion on any of my actions where you can adjust that and the highest I found on any of my rifles was .053" on a Win model 70. Too much pin protrusion combined with an oversized firing pin hole equals a pierced primer, guaranteed.
When I asked the owner of the rifle who built it, he was hesitant to tell me at first because he knew what my response would be. After I insisted that he tells me which hacksaw "smith" did this work he told me that it was the same guy who butchered my two 270 barrels! As soon as I found out who built the gun I stuffed it back in the case and slapped a return label on there to get it as far away from me as possible! What gets me though is that I nearly bought this rifle from the owner after I pulled it out the case the first time, it was exactly what I had planned to build more than a year ago!
I thought about throwing the smith's name out there along with the story, but I just don't feel like listening to a bunch of his other customers telling me about how great his work is. So far, I've handled 3 builds by this smith and all of them had serious faults and in this case, dangerous problems. I can't think of any reputable build who would EVER let a gun leave the shop after seeing a primer look like that. I'm just glad that I always wear glasses when I'm shooting and all I ended up with was a split thumb nail instead of having a firing pin through my orbital socket.
Post by: Crunchy on August 27, 2019, 01:01:42 AM
Post by: jasnt on August 27, 2019, 05:39:46 AM
If you want something done right you gotta do it your self.
Post by: fowl smacker on August 27, 2019, 10:14:45 AM
Post by: CoryTDF on August 27, 2019, 10:27:03 AM
Glad you are ok. Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?
:yeah:
Post by: Caseyd on August 27, 2019, 10:41:48 AM
Post by: N7XW on August 27, 2019, 10:55:49 AM
Be careful guys!
Post by: whacker1 on August 27, 2019, 12:19:24 PM
Post by: huntandjeep on August 27, 2019, 04:49:15 PM
Post by: Dan-o on August 27, 2019, 06:07:09 PM
Post by: Smossy on August 27, 2019, 06:09:23 PM
I wouldn't drop the name either, Yorke.Screw that, name drop. Firearm failures due to poor worksmanship can be fatal. Thats a no brainer for me for that one. :dunno: I cant even make sense of why you wouldnt speak up..?
Post by: nwmein199 on August 27, 2019, 06:17:58 PM
I wouldn't drop the name either, Yorke.Screw that, name drop. Firearm failures due to poor worksmanship can be fatal. Thats a no brainer for me for that one. :dunno: I cant even make sense of why you wouldnt speak up..?
:yeah:
Safety first
Post by: Magnum_Willys on August 27, 2019, 06:22:13 PM
Post by: Dan-o on August 27, 2019, 06:33:22 PM
I wouldn't drop the name either, Yorke.Screw that, name drop. Firearm failures due to poor worksmanship can be fatal. Thats a no brainer for me for that one. :dunno: I cant even make sense of why you wouldnt speak up..?
For starters, because it's not about what's true, it's about what you can prove in a court of law.
Even if Yorke is 100% accurate, if he can't PROVE fault by the smith he is liable for libel.
Post by: Bob33 on August 27, 2019, 06:45:56 PM
If he simply states the facts of what happened to his action there is no basis for a defamation case. Not that the gunsmith couldn't try but truth is an absolute defense. The gunsmith has the obligation of proving statements made were false. " I bought an action from so and so. Here are the results of test firing."I wouldn't drop the name either, Yorke.Screw that, name drop. Firearm failures due to poor worksmanship can be fatal. Thats a no brainer for me for that one. :dunno: I cant even make sense of why you wouldnt speak up..?
For starters, because it's not about what's true, it's about what you can prove in a court of law.
Even if Yorke is 100% accurate, if he can't PROVE fault by the smith he is liable for libel.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 27, 2019, 07:35:04 PM
When I buy an action like Stiller isnt all that provided machined and ready for Smith to mate with barrel ? Wouldnt firing pin stuff be fault of action maker normally? Idk much about the detailsThe smith could be opening the bolt face or swapping firing pins too, just kind of depends on what the customer orders.
Post by: yorketransport on August 27, 2019, 09:17:08 PM
Glad you are ok. Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?
This will be a bit of a long explanation, but I think having the full back story helps explain the whole deal.
There're a couple reasons I won't throw it out there publicly. The biggest reason is out of respect for the initial shop who was "doing the work" on my 27 Boondoogle. That shop offers custom rifle services under their brand. At the time when I started my project they actually had a "Big Name" outside smith who was contracted to do the smith work for this shop. The deal was that the smith would do the work for this shop so that customers would get the "quality" work from the experienced smith, but essentially have the work rebranded. Part of that arrangement was a sort of confidentiality between the smith and the shop selling the service. I was only told the name of the smith doing the work after things started to go wrong with my 27 Boondoogle project. I was asked by the shop selling the service to keep the name of the smith to myself out of respect for their contract with the gunsmith. I'm choosing to respect that request because I understand the position that the shop is in. Had I known who was doing the work, I would have never allowed the smith to work on my project. Likewise, if the shop selling the service had been aware of my opinion of the smith, they would have never let him work on my project out of respect for me as a customer.
The smith doing the work has a 2+ year back log on complete rifle orders and doing quick builds on the side helped financially support his shop which wasn't generating enough revenue because he wasn't actually sending any completed rifles out the door. This is a common problem with gunsmiths where they're just bad businessmen and can't handle the inconsistent cash flow which comes from a custom product based business. They take the deposit from customer #2 to pay for the parts complete customer #1's gun, then just keep moving down the line until they're in a financial hole. It's been the death of more gunsmiths than I can count!
I was only given the smith's name after the work went sideways and I said that I needed to talk to the smith. While I haven't directly done work with the smith prior to this, he was well enough aware of who I am to know my opinion of him. I've had enough "unique" projects done that I stand out, maybe not by name but by my unconventional tastes in guns. What followed was a display of many of the reasons I don't respect him as a business owner or a gunsmith, all of which I have records of in the form of emails and texts. I ultimately made the decision to take back all my parts and walk away from the $1300 I had paid (after he told me the project was completed and shipping out!) and pay a different smith to try and finish the project. When the finished project failed to shoot even reasonably adequate groups I started trouble shooting the problems until I found the issue which was an improperly cut tenon on both barrels. That was part of the work which was completed by the original smith before I pulled the project from him. When I reached out to the smith about the error I was reminded AGAIN why I don't respect him. His arrogance and ego are far beyond his skill! And that's coming from me, a guy who's well know for being incredibly arrogant within my profession! :chuckle:
By now the owners of the shop who's name was behind the whole fiasco were worried that it would negatively impact my opinion and relationship with them. Because of me they've dropped the big named smith and hired their own in house smith to do their work from now on. I do respect how that shop chose to handle the situation, which is why I chose to honor their request to not publicly bury the smith. Since they felt responsible for the failure of the 27 Boondoogle project (which they indirectly were) one of the owners of that shop sent me his personal rifle (the 27 Nosler in this thread) to use to finish my testing which I had originally planned to do with the 1-7" twist barrel on the 27 Boondoogle. Everything after that is what I described in my original post on this thread.
So the quick explanation for why I won't name the smith (or the shop who was the middle man) is just out of respect for the owners of the shop. I told them I wouldn't publicly name the smith because that would compromise their contract with him. I don't see any reason to complicate that arrangement any more than I already have. If anyone is really that interested in the name of the smith you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I will say that it's not anyone who advertises here on HuntWA.
Andrew
Post by: Taco280AI on August 27, 2019, 09:55:44 PM
Post by: jasnt on August 27, 2019, 10:38:21 PM
Post by: whacker1 on August 28, 2019, 08:42:52 AM
Glad you are ok. Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?
This will be a bit of a long explanation, but I think having the full back story helps explain the whole deal.
There're a couple reasons I won't throw it out there publicly. The biggest reason is out of respect for the initial shop who was "doing the work" on my 27 Boondoogle. That shop offers custom rifle services under their brand. At the time when I started my project they actually had a "Big Name" outside smith who was contracted to do the smith work for this shop. The deal was that the smith would do the work for this shop so that customers would get the "quality" work from the experienced smith, but essentially have the work rebranded. Part of that arrangement was a sort of confidentiality between the smith and the shop selling the service. I was only told the name of the smith doing the work after things started to go wrong with my 27 Boondoogle project. I was asked by the shop selling the service to keep the name of the smith to myself out of respect for their contract with the gunsmith. I'm choosing to respect that request because I understand the position that the shop is in. Had I known who was doing the work, I would have never allowed the smith to work on my project. Likewise, if the shop selling the service had been aware of my opinion of the smith, they would have never let him work on my project out of respect for me as a customer.
The smith doing the work has a 2+ year back log on complete rifle orders and doing quick builds on the side helped financially support his shop which wasn't generating enough revenue because he wasn't actually sending any completed rifles out the door. This is a common problem with gunsmiths where they're just bad businessmen and can't handle the inconsistent cash flow which comes from a custom product based business. They take the deposit from customer #2 to pay for the parts complete customer #1's gun, then just keep moving down the line until they're in a financial hole. It's been the death of more gunsmiths than I can count!
I was only given the smith's name after the work went sideways and I said that I needed to talk to the smith. While I haven't directly done work with the smith prior to this, he was well enough aware of who I am to know my opinion of him. I've had enough "unique" projects done that I stand out, maybe not by name but by my unconventional tastes in guns. What followed was a display of many of the reasons I don't respect him as a business owner or a gunsmith, all of which I have records of in the form of emails and texts. I ultimately made the decision to take back all my parts and walk away from the $1300 I had paid (after he told me the project was completed and shipping out!) and pay a different smith to try and finish the project. When the finished project failed to shoot even reasonably adequate groups I started trouble shooting the problems until I found the issue which was an improperly cut tenon on both barrels. That was part of the work which was completed by the original smith before I pulled the project from him. When I reached out to the smith about the error I was reminded AGAIN why I don't respect him. His arrogance and ego are far beyond his skill! And that's coming from me, a guy who's well know for being incredibly arrogant within my profession! :chuckle:
By now the owners of the shop who's name was behind the whole fiasco were worried that it would negatively impact my opinion and relationship with them. Because of me they've dropped the big named smith and hired their own in house smith to do their work from now on. I do respect how that shop chose to handle the situation, which is why I chose to honor their request to not publicly bury the smith. Since they felt responsible for the failure of the 27 Boondoogle project (which they indirectly were) one of the owners of that shop sent me his personal rifle (the 27 Nosler in this thread) to use to finish my testing which I had originally planned to do with the 1-7" twist barrel on the 27 Boondoogle. Everything after that is what I described in my original post on this thread.
So the quick explanation for why I won't name the smith (or the shop who was the middle man) is just out of respect for the owners of the shop. I told them I wouldn't publicly name the smith because that would compromise their contract with him. I don't see any reason to complicate that arrangement any more than I already have. If anyone is really that interested in the name of the smith you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I will say that it's not anyone who advertises here on HuntWA.
Andrew
Thank you for sharing the whole back story. I can respect that decision and relationship. The scenario you mention is a common trend in many businesses that have long lead times, construction - homebuilder takes deposit from homeowner 2 to finish home 1. sales of wedding dresses.....take deposit on dress 2 to finish tailoring on dress 1. commissioned art....take deposit on painting 2 to complete painting 1. Super common trend with folks that either don't understand how a P & L or balance sheet work, or are just don't care to understand. We also see it in folks that get behind in quarterly taxes, money has been spent because it was comingled in the same account, so when it is time to pay the employment security taxes, etc. the money is gone.
Post by: rbros on August 28, 2019, 09:29:11 AM
Glad you are ok. Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?
This will be a bit of a long explanation, but I think having the full back story helps explain the whole deal.
There're a couple reasons I won't throw it out there publicly. The biggest reason is out of respect for the initial shop who was "doing the work" on my 27 Boondoogle. That shop offers custom rifle services under their brand. At the time when I started my project they actually had a "Big Name" outside smith who was contracted to do the smith work for this shop. The deal was that the smith would do the work for this shop so that customers would get the "quality" work from the experienced smith, but essentially have the work rebranded. Part of that arrangement was a sort of confidentiality between the smith and the shop selling the service. I was only told the name of the smith doing the work after things started to go wrong with my 27 Boondoogle project. I was asked by the shop selling the service to keep the name of the smith to myself out of respect for their contract with the gunsmith. I'm choosing to respect that request because I understand the position that the shop is in. Had I known who was doing the work, I would have never allowed the smith to work on my project. Likewise, if the shop selling the service had been aware of my opinion of the smith, they would have never let him work on my project out of respect for me as a customer.
The smith doing the work has a 2+ year back log on complete rifle orders and doing quick builds on the side helped financially support his shop which wasn't generating enough revenue because he wasn't actually sending any completed rifles out the door. This is a common problem with gunsmiths where they're just bad businessmen and can't handle the inconsistent cash flow which comes from a custom product based business. They take the deposit from customer #2 to pay for the parts complete customer #1's gun, then just keep moving down the line until they're in a financial hole. It's been the death of more gunsmiths than I can count!
I was only given the smith's name after the work went sideways and I said that I needed to talk to the smith. While I haven't directly done work with the smith prior to this, he was well enough aware of who I am to know my opinion of him. I've had enough "unique" projects done that I stand out, maybe not by name but by my unconventional tastes in guns. What followed was a display of many of the reasons I don't respect him as a business owner or a gunsmith, all of which I have records of in the form of emails and texts. I ultimately made the decision to take back all my parts and walk away from the $1300 I had paid (after he told me the project was completed and shipping out!) and pay a different smith to try and finish the project. When the finished project failed to shoot even reasonably adequate groups I started trouble shooting the problems until I found the issue which was an improperly cut tenon on both barrels. That was part of the work which was completed by the original smith before I pulled the project from him. When I reached out to the smith about the error I was reminded AGAIN why I don't respect him. His arrogance and ego are far beyond his skill! And that's coming from me, a guy who's well know for being incredibly arrogant within my profession! :chuckle:
By now the owners of the shop who's name was behind the whole fiasco were worried that it would negatively impact my opinion and relationship with them. Because of me they've dropped the big named smith and hired their own in house smith to do their work from now on. I do respect how that shop chose to handle the situation, which is why I chose to honor their request to not publicly bury the smith. Since they felt responsible for the failure of the 27 Boondoogle project (which they indirectly were) one of the owners of that shop sent me his personal rifle (the 27 Nosler in this thread) to use to finish my testing which I had originally planned to do with the 1-7" twist barrel on the 27 Boondoogle. Everything after that is what I described in my original post on this thread.
So the quick explanation for why I won't name the smith (or the shop who was the middle man) is just out of respect for the owners of the shop. I told them I wouldn't publicly name the smith because that would compromise their contract with him. I don't see any reason to complicate that arrangement any more than I already have. If anyone is really that interested in the name of the smith you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I will say that it's not anyone who advertises here on HuntWA.
Andrew
Well said Andrew. Very common financial trend in this industry, which is why those of us that have been in for 10+ years are far and few. Wonder if this guy is one of the handful of smith's that I have been fixing their work lately. ALOT of safety issues out there lately with both local smiths and out of state guys. Seeing stuff that shouldn't even be going out the door but it is and unfortunately some guys are getting injured lately. Definitely do your homework when choosing a builder.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on August 28, 2019, 10:56:54 AM
Post by: Taco280AI on August 28, 2019, 11:37:16 AM
Post by: Jason on August 28, 2019, 12:17:54 PM
People are getting injured and and nobody will say a name? What about the next person to get injured that may have gone elsewhere with this knowledge? You knew it might happen and said nothing.I get the predicament that Andrew is in with honoring what he had with the other smith, but when injuries could be prevented by knowing you have a rifle that is being or was built by a smith that is building and selling bad work then IMO that trumps any agreement that is in place.
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 03:24:47 PM
People are getting injured and and nobody will say a name? What about the next person to get injured that may have gone elsewhere with this knowledge? You knew it might happen and said nothing.
I definitely see that perspective. In this specific case though it would be Remington responsible for the faulty part. Despite all the issues I've had with this smith and my personal opinion of him, the oversized firing pin hole is a known issue with Remington 700s and that was ultimately the cause of the failure. The smith is guilty of over looking (or ignoring) the issue since I know for a fact that he test fires all guns which leave the shop.
As I said before, if anyone is looking to have a LR rifle built and is worried that this may be their smith, just shoot me a PM and we can discuss it. If/when this smith gets brought up I have and will give my opinion of his work. I get 5-10 emails/messages a month from folks looking for advice or suggestions about building a gun. I have a very long list of businesses and vendors that I've either personally worked with or somebody in the very small group of people I shoot with has worked with. Between the 4 of us we've had well over 100 custom guns built by at least 40 different shops ranging from small, no name smiths to barrel manufacturers and some of the top names in the LR hunting and target shooting community. It's hard to pin down one builder as the best, but each of us can name one smith and one vendor we'd consider the worst!
Post by: h20hunter on August 28, 2019, 03:25:59 PM
Post by: The scout on August 28, 2019, 03:28:16 PM
Post by: b23 on August 28, 2019, 03:49:48 PM
Post by: Crunchy on August 28, 2019, 04:58:45 PM
Post by: jasnt on August 28, 2019, 05:46:48 PM
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 07:42:44 PM
Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?
It really wasn't what I'd consider a hot load. If you crunch the numbers in QL using a 27/28 Nosler (97.2gr H2O capacity measured capacity) shooting 82.5gr Re 33 with an OAL of 3.580" and a 170gr projectile that's 1.72" long, you come in at around 61K psi and a velocity of 3170 fps from a 27" barrel. The load data I got with the gun was for 83.0gr of Re 33 with a velocity of 3190 fps, very close to the QL prediction. The one round I fired from the gun extracted easily despite the pierced primer and showed a velocity of 3176 fps. That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect from this case with a 170 class bullet.
That primer a CCI250? That only come from a smith issue, or is it possible that the load was still too hot? Somewhat a rookie trying to learn signs of a hot load compared to some other issue.
The primer is a Fed 215m. I had 10,000 of these primers from the same lot # and I've use roughly 5,000 of them without any similar issues. And I'll be the first to admit that I've shot some very questionable loads with these primers while working on a few projects. The best measure for pressure when you're working with a more common chambering is typically velocity. If all the published load manuals are getting 2850 fps with a 180gr bullet from a 7 Rem Mag loaded to 3.400" (pretty standard published load data) and you're getting 3000 fps with the same bullet at the same OAL, something's up. All things equal, velocity equals pressure.
I totally respect not naming the company, but why not the smith? You said you didn’t know the work was getting sent off to him, so how would anyone else put the smiths name with the actual shop you went through?
Maybe the better question to ask is what do I have to gain by naming the smith here? I started this post more to vent than anything. The majority of the people who've responded to this thread probably wouldn't be considering this smith for a build. I view picking a smith the same way I do hiring any other sort of contractor, get references and do interviews. If you're going to give somebody a significant chunk of your money to provide a service then you need to do your homework. You'll still get burned if you do anything often enough, but if you searched up this smith's name you'd hear plenty of stories that would make yo rethink your choices.
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 07:46:38 PM
Well said Andrew. Very common financial trend in this industry, which is why those of us that have been in for 10+ years are far and few. Wonder if this guy is one of the handful of smith's that I have been fixing their work lately. ALOT of safety issues out there lately with both local smiths and out of state guys. Seeing stuff that shouldn't even be going out the door but it is and unfortunately some guys are getting injured lately. Definitely do your homework when choosing a builder.
I'd bet you've had at least one come through to get fixed. I've talked to 3 shop owners who've had to fix bad work done by this guy. I'll shoot you a PM with the name, you probably won't be surprised.
Post by: The scout on August 28, 2019, 07:52:06 PM
Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?
It really wasn't what I'd consider a hot load. If you crunch the numbers in QL using a 27/28 Nosler (97.2gr H2O capacity measured capacity) shooting 82.5gr Re 33 with an OAL of 3.580" and a 170gr projectile that's 1.72" long, you come in at around 61K psi and a velocity of 3170 fps from a 27" barrel. The load data I got with the gun was for 83.0gr of Re 33 with a velocity of 3190 fps, very close to the QL prediction. The one round I fired from the gun extracted easily despite the pierced primer and showed a velocity of 3176 fps. That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect from this case with a 170 class bullet.That primer a CCI250? That only come from a smith issue, or is it possible that the load was still too hot? Somewhat a rookie trying to learn signs of a hot load compared to some other issue.
The primer is a Fed 215m. I had 10,000 of these primers from the same lot # and I've use roughly 5,000 of them without any similar issues. And I'll be the first to admit that I've shot some very questionable loads with these primers while working on a few projects. The best measure for pressure when you're working with a more common chambering is typically velocity. If all the published load manuals are getting 2850 fps with a 180gr bullet from a 7 Rem Mag loaded to 3.400" (pretty standard published load data) and you're getting 3000 fps with the same bullet at the same OAL, something's up. All things equal, velocity equals pressure.I totally respect not naming the company, but why not the smith? You said you didn’t know the work was getting sent off to him, so how would anyone else put the smiths name with the actual shop you went through?
Maybe the better question to ask is what do I have to gain by naming the smith here? I started this post more to vent than anything. The majority of the people who've responded to this thread probably wouldn't be considering this smith for a build. I view picking a smith the same way I do hiring any other sort of contractor, get references and do interviews. If you're going to give somebody a significant chunk of your money to provide a service then you need to do your homework. You'll still get burned if you do anything often enough, but if you searched up this smith's name you'd hear plenty of stories that would make yo rethink your choices.
I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Post by: dscubame on August 28, 2019, 08:04:33 PM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on August 28, 2019, 08:20:06 PM
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 08:22:53 PM
Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters? Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?
I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
I'll use a thread I started a while back as an example. I won't use Berger bullets for hunting based on my personal experience with them failing to reliably and predictably expand. I'm not the only one who holds that opinion, but if I (or somebody else) brings it up there will be a significant number of people who will come to the defense of Berger bullets for hunting because their experience is completely different than mine. So who's actually right in that situation? The bullet can't be both the best and worst bullet at the same time. It's the same with gunsmiths.
I can say that I've had nothing but bad luck with Gunsmith X (who's done excellent work for me in the past :chuckle:) and that Dirk McFiddlesticks is the only guy I'll let touch my equipment (who's also done some great work :tup:). If 80% of the customers are satisfied with the results they get from each smith, then the 20% of us who had a bad experience are considered outliers and one off experiences. My experience with the bad smith work here falls into the 20% bracket. I'm more likely to have issues on my projects because I have have unusual ideas and I'm very particular about the finished product. I'm just a difficult customer and I know that.
Basically, people are going to go out into the echo chamber of the internet and search for information. You'll find reviews saying what an amazing smith this guy is just like you'll find reviews with experiences similar to mine. The average person is going to find the information that best fits with their predetermined opinion and just dismiss the other side as the outliers.
All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed.... I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.
If you're a factory rifle shooter, what difference would it make if you knew the name or not?
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 08:26:14 PM
Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters? Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?
No classic work coming from that shop that I'm aware of, I'm not sure he's ever touched a piece of walnut! :chuckle:
Post by: dscubame on August 28, 2019, 08:30:52 PM
Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters? Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?
I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
I'll use a thread I started a while back as an example. I won't use Berger bullets for hunting based on my personal experience with them failing to reliably and predictably expand. I'm not the only one who holds that opinion, but if I (or somebody else) brings it up there will be a significant number of people who will come to the defense of Berger bullets for hunting because their experience is completely different than mine. So who's actually right in that situation? The bullet can't be both the best and worst bullet at the same time. It's the same with gunsmiths.
I can say that I've had nothing but bad luck with Gunsmith X (who's done excellent work for me in the past :chuckle:) and that Dirk McFiddlesticks is the only guy I'll let touch my equipment (who's also done some great work :tup:). If 80% of the customers are satisfied with the results they get from each smith, then the 20% of us who had a bad experience are considered outliers and one off experiences. My experience with the bad smith work here falls into the 20% bracket. I'm more likely to have issues on my projects because I have have unusual ideas and I'm very particular about the finished product. I'm just a difficult customer and I know that.
Basically, people are going to go out into the echo chamber of the internet and search for information. You'll find reviews saying what an amazing smith this guy is just like you'll find reviews with experiences similar to mine. The average person is going to find the information that best fits with their predetermined opinion and just dismiss the other side as the outliers.All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed.... I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.
If you're a factory rifle shooter, what difference would it make if you knew the name or not?
It makes no difference to me personally as stated, it is the big picture unboxed and only my opinion. I will go back to being a sideline observer on this one. :brew:
Post by: b23 on August 28, 2019, 08:57:03 PM
Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?
It really wasn't what I'd consider a hot load. If you crunch the numbers in QL using a 27/28 Nosler (97.2gr H2O capacity measured capacity) shooting 82.5gr Re 33 with an OAL of 3.580" and a 170gr projectile that's 1.72" long, you come in at around 61K psi and a velocity of 3170 fps from a 27" barrel. The load data I got with the gun was for 83.0gr of Re 33 with a velocity of 3190 fps, very close to the QL prediction. The one round I fired from the gun extracted easily despite the pierced primer and showed a velocity of 3176 fps. That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect from this case with a 170 class bullet.
And how close to touching the lands were you seating?
I'm sure you already know this so I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but if you have a load that is near or at max, then you seat the bullet out to touching or near touch, it'll spike up the start pressure and put you way over max in a hurry. I've been guilty of this myself, I didn't take into account I was already at max, then seated the bullets out to right at touching and immediately got a pieced primer. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's something to always keep in mind.
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 09:06:19 PM
And how close to touching the lands were you seating?
I'm sure you already know this so I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but if you have a load that is near or at max, then you seat the bullet out to touching or near touch, it'll spike up the start pressure and put you way over max in a hurry. I've been guilty of this myself, I didn't take into account I was already at max, then seated the bullets out to right at touching and immediately got a pieced primer. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's something to always keep in mind.
That was one of my concerns when this happened so I checked the distance to the lands when I got home and it was .020". I tried hard to come up with another explanation. I'd bet that the excessive firing pin protrusion was what pushed everything over the edge. Too much protrusion combined with an oversized firing pin hole is a recipe for disaster. If that pin were sticking out any more it would have hit the base of the bullet. :chuckle:
Post by: The scout on August 28, 2019, 09:17:06 PM
Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters? Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?
I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
I'll use a thread I started a while back as an example. I won't use Berger bullets for hunting based on my personal experience with them failing to reliably and predictably expand. I'm not the only one who holds that opinion, but if I (or somebody else) brings it up there will be a significant number of people who will come to the defense of Berger bullets for hunting because their experience is completely different than mine. So who's actually right in that situation? The bullet can't be both the best and worst bullet at the same time. It's the same with gunsmiths.
I can say that I've had nothing but bad luck with Gunsmith X (who's done excellent work for me in the past :chuckle:) and that Dirk McFiddlesticks is the only guy I'll let touch my equipment (who's also done some great work :tup:). If 80% of the customers are satisfied with the results they get from each smith, then the 20% of us who had a bad experience are considered outliers and one off experiences. My experience with the bad smith work here falls into the 20% bracket. I'm more likely to have issues on my projects because I have have unusual ideas and I'm very particular about the finished product. I'm just a difficult customer and I know that.
Basically, people are going to go out into the echo chamber of the internet and search for information. You'll find reviews saying what an amazing smith this guy is just like you'll find reviews with experiences similar to mine. The average person is going to find the information that best fits with their predetermined opinion and just dismiss the other side as the outliers.All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed.... I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.
If you're a factory rifle shooter, what difference would it make if you knew the name or not?
I guess we can agree to disagree. Lol. Didn’t think a berger bullet not expanding was on the same level as someone’s ego and lack knowledge possibly hurting someone was on the same level. And just so you know I know the smith you are talking about I was just trying to maybe help someone else. Hopefully you have another project in the works because I really like following along with them.
Post by: yorketransport on August 28, 2019, 09:26:36 PM
I guess we can agree to disagree. Lol. Didn’t think a berger bullet not expanding was on the same level as someone’s ego and lack knowledge possibly hurting someone was on the same level. And just so you know I know the smith you are talking about I was just trying to maybe help someone else. Hopefully you have another project in the works because I really like following along with them.
I get that and I figured that anyone familiar with that segment of the shooting world would be able to figure it out pretty easy since there's been a history of questionable products coming from that shop for a while. He still has a loyal following and nothing I say is going to change the opinion of one of those folks.
Post by: hogslayer on August 28, 2019, 09:31:01 PM