More bad smith work from a big name gun builder

[JimmyHoffa]

When I buy an action like Stiller isnt all that provided machined and ready for Smith to mate with barrel ?   Wouldnt firing pin stuff be fault of action maker normally?   Idk much about the details

The smith could be opening the bolt face or swapping firing pins too, just kind of depends on what the customer orders.

[yorketransport]

Glad you are ok.  Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?

This will be a bit of a long explanation, but I think having the full back story helps explain the whole deal.

There're a couple reasons I won't throw it out there publicly. The biggest reason is out of respect for the initial shop who was "doing the work" on my 27 Boondoogle. That shop offers custom rifle services under their brand. At the time when I started my project they actually had a "Big Name" outside smith who was contracted to do the smith work for this shop. The deal was that the smith would do the work for this shop so that customers would get the "quality" work from the experienced smith, but essentially have the work rebranded. Part of that arrangement was a sort of confidentiality between the smith and the shop selling the service. I was only told the name of the smith doing the work after things started to go wrong with my 27 Boondoogle project. I was asked by the shop selling the service to keep the name of the smith to myself out of respect for their contract with the gunsmith. I'm choosing to respect that request because I understand the position that the shop is in. Had I known who was doing the work, I would have never allowed the smith to work on my project. Likewise, if the shop selling the service had been aware of my opinion of the smith, they would have never let him work on my project out of respect for me as a customer.

The smith doing the work has a 2+ year back log on complete rifle orders and doing quick builds on the side helped financially support his shop which wasn't generating enough revenue because he wasn't actually sending any completed rifles out the door. This is a common problem with gunsmiths where they're just bad businessmen and can't handle the inconsistent cash flow which comes from a custom product based business. They take the deposit from customer #2 to pay for the parts complete customer #1's gun, then just keep moving down the line until they're in a financial hole. It's been the death of more gunsmiths than I can count!

I was only given the smith's name after the work went sideways and I said that I needed to talk to the smith. While I haven't directly done work with the smith prior to this, he was well enough aware of who I am to know my opinion of him. I've had enough "unique" projects done that I stand out, maybe not by name but by my unconventional tastes in guns. What followed was a display of many of the reasons I don't respect him as a business owner or a gunsmith, all of which I have records of in the form of emails and texts. I ultimately made the decision to take back all my parts and walk away from the $1300 I had paid (after he told me the project was completed and shipping out!) and pay a different smith to try and finish the project. When the finished project failed to shoot even reasonably adequate groups I started trouble shooting the problems until I found the issue which was an improperly cut tenon on both barrels. That was part of the work which was completed by the original smith before I pulled the project from him. When I reached out to the smith about the error I was reminded AGAIN why I don't respect him. His arrogance and ego are far beyond his skill! And that's coming from me, a guy who's well know for being incredibly arrogant within my profession!

By now the owners of the shop who's name was behind the whole fiasco were worried that it would negatively impact my opinion and relationship with them. Because of me they've dropped the big named smith and hired their own in house smith to do their work from now on. I do respect how that shop chose to handle the situation, which is why I chose to honor their request to not publicly bury the smith. Since they felt responsible for the failure of the 27 Boondoogle project (which they indirectly were) one of the owners of that shop sent me his personal rifle (the 27 Nosler in this thread) to use to finish my testing which I had originally planned to do with the 1-7" twist barrel on the 27 Boondoogle. Everything after that is what I described in my original post on this thread.

So the quick explanation for why I won't name the smith (or the shop who was the middle man) is just out of respect for the owners of the shop. I told them I wouldn't publicly name the smith because that would compromise their contract with him. I don't see any reason to complicate that arrangement any more than I already have. If anyone is really that interested in the name of the smith you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I will say that it's not anyone who advertises here on HuntWA.

Andrew

[Taco280AI]

 

[jasnt]

I can respect that

[whacker1]

Glad you are ok.  Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?

This will be a bit of a long explanation, but I think having the full back story helps explain the whole deal.

There're a couple reasons I won't throw it out there publicly. The biggest reason is out of respect for the initial shop who was "doing the work" on my 27 Boondoogle. That shop offers custom rifle services under their brand. At the time when I started my project they actually had a "Big Name" outside smith who was contracted to do the smith work for this shop. The deal was that the smith would do the work for this shop so that customers would get the "quality" work from the experienced smith, but essentially have the work rebranded. Part of that arrangement was a sort of confidentiality between the smith and the shop selling the service. I was only told the name of the smith doing the work after things started to go wrong with my 27 Boondoogle project. I was asked by the shop selling the service to keep the name of the smith to myself out of respect for their contract with the gunsmith. I'm choosing to respect that request because I understand the position that the shop is in. Had I known who was doing the work, I would have never allowed the smith to work on my project. Likewise, if the shop selling the service had been aware of my opinion of the smith, they would have never let him work on my project out of respect for me as a customer.

The smith doing the work has a 2+ year back log on complete rifle orders and doing quick builds on the side helped financially support his shop which wasn't generating enough revenue because he wasn't actually sending any completed rifles out the door. This is a common problem with gunsmiths where they're just bad businessmen and can't handle the inconsistent cash flow which comes from a custom product based business. They take the deposit from customer #2 to pay for the parts complete customer #1's gun, then just keep moving down the line until they're in a financial hole. It's been the death of more gunsmiths than I can count!

I was only given the smith's name after the work went sideways and I said that I needed to talk to the smith. While I haven't directly done work with the smith prior to this, he was well enough aware of who I am to know my opinion of him. I've had enough "unique" projects done that I stand out, maybe not by name but by my unconventional tastes in guns. What followed was a display of many of the reasons I don't respect him as a business owner or a gunsmith, all of which I have records of in the form of emails and texts. I ultimately made the decision to take back all my parts and walk away from the $1300 I had paid (after he told me the project was completed and shipping out!) and pay a different smith to try and finish the project. When the finished project failed to shoot even reasonably adequate groups I started trouble shooting the problems until I found the issue which was an improperly cut tenon on both barrels. That was part of the work which was completed by the original smith before I pulled the project from him. When I reached out to the smith about the error I was reminded AGAIN why I don't respect him. His arrogance and ego are far beyond his skill! And that's coming from me, a guy who's well know for being incredibly arrogant within my profession!

By now the owners of the shop who's name was behind the whole fiasco were worried that it would negatively impact my opinion and relationship with them. Because of me they've dropped the big named smith and hired their own in house smith to do their work from now on. I do respect how that shop chose to handle the situation, which is why I chose to honor their request to not publicly bury the smith. Since they felt responsible for the failure of the 27 Boondoogle project (which they indirectly were) one of the owners of that shop sent me his personal rifle (the 27 Nosler in this thread) to use to finish my testing which I had originally planned to do with the 1-7" twist barrel on the 27 Boondoogle. Everything after that is what I described in my original post on this thread.

So the quick explanation for why I won't name the smith (or the shop who was the middle man) is just out of respect for the owners of the shop. I told them I wouldn't publicly name the smith because that would compromise their contract with him. I don't see any reason to complicate that arrangement any more than I already have. If anyone is really that interested in the name of the smith you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I will say that it's not anyone who advertises here on HuntWA.

Andrew

Thank you for sharing the whole back story.  I can respect that decision and relationship.  The scenario you mention is a common trend in many businesses that have long lead times, construction - homebuilder takes deposit from homeowner 2 to finish home 1.  sales of wedding dresses.....take deposit on dress 2 to finish tailoring on dress 1.  commissioned art....take deposit on painting 2 to complete painting 1.   Super common trend with folks that either don't understand how a P & L or balance sheet work, or are just don't care to understand.   We also see it in folks that get behind in quarterly taxes, money has been spent because it was comingled in the same account, so when it is time to pay the employment security taxes, etc.  the money is gone.

[rbros]

Glad you are ok.  Why wouldn't you drop his name, it could potentially keep someone from getting hurt?

This will be a bit of a long explanation, but I think having the full back story helps explain the whole deal.

There're a couple reasons I won't throw it out there publicly. The biggest reason is out of respect for the initial shop who was "doing the work" on my 27 Boondoogle. That shop offers custom rifle services under their brand. At the time when I started my project they actually had a "Big Name" outside smith who was contracted to do the smith work for this shop. The deal was that the smith would do the work for this shop so that customers would get the "quality" work from the experienced smith, but essentially have the work rebranded. Part of that arrangement was a sort of confidentiality between the smith and the shop selling the service. I was only told the name of the smith doing the work after things started to go wrong with my 27 Boondoogle project. I was asked by the shop selling the service to keep the name of the smith to myself out of respect for their contract with the gunsmith. I'm choosing to respect that request because I understand the position that the shop is in. Had I known who was doing the work, I would have never allowed the smith to work on my project. Likewise, if the shop selling the service had been aware of my opinion of the smith, they would have never let him work on my project out of respect for me as a customer.

The smith doing the work has a 2+ year back log on complete rifle orders and doing quick builds on the side helped financially support his shop which wasn't generating enough revenue because he wasn't actually sending any completed rifles out the door. This is a common problem with gunsmiths where they're just bad businessmen and can't handle the inconsistent cash flow which comes from a custom product based business. They take the deposit from customer #2 to pay for the parts complete customer #1's gun, then just keep moving down the line until they're in a financial hole. It's been the death of more gunsmiths than I can count!

I was only given the smith's name after the work went sideways and I said that I needed to talk to the smith. While I haven't directly done work with the smith prior to this, he was well enough aware of who I am to know my opinion of him. I've had enough "unique" projects done that I stand out, maybe not by name but by my unconventional tastes in guns. What followed was a display of many of the reasons I don't respect him as a business owner or a gunsmith, all of which I have records of in the form of emails and texts. I ultimately made the decision to take back all my parts and walk away from the $1300 I had paid (after he told me the project was completed and shipping out!) and pay a different smith to try and finish the project. When the finished project failed to shoot even reasonably adequate groups I started trouble shooting the problems until I found the issue which was an improperly cut tenon on both barrels. That was part of the work which was completed by the original smith before I pulled the project from him. When I reached out to the smith about the error I was reminded AGAIN why I don't respect him. His arrogance and ego are far beyond his skill! And that's coming from me, a guy who's well know for being incredibly arrogant within my profession!

By now the owners of the shop who's name was behind the whole fiasco were worried that it would negatively impact my opinion and relationship with them. Because of me they've dropped the big named smith and hired their own in house smith to do their work from now on. I do respect how that shop chose to handle the situation, which is why I chose to honor their request to not publicly bury the smith. Since they felt responsible for the failure of the 27 Boondoogle project (which they indirectly were) one of the owners of that shop sent me his personal rifle (the 27 Nosler in this thread) to use to finish my testing which I had originally planned to do with the 1-7" twist barrel on the 27 Boondoogle. Everything after that is what I described in my original post on this thread.

So the quick explanation for why I won't name the smith (or the shop who was the middle man) is just out of respect for the owners of the shop. I told them I wouldn't publicly name the smith because that would compromise their contract with him. I don't see any reason to complicate that arrangement any more than I already have. If anyone is really that interested in the name of the smith you can send me a PM and we can discuss it. I will say that it's not anyone who advertises here on HuntWA.

Andrew

Well said Andrew.  Very common financial trend in this industry, which is why those of us that have been in for 10+ years are far and few.  Wonder if this guy is one of the handful of smith's that I have been fixing their work lately.  ALOT of safety issues out there lately with both local smiths and out of state guys.  Seeing stuff that shouldn't even be going out the door but it is and unfortunately some guys are getting injured lately.  Definitely do your homework when choosing a builder.

[Karl Blanchard]

This is also a very good reminder why shooting glasses are important. Bad stuff can happen and eyes are important.

[Taco280AI]

People are getting injured and and nobody will say a name? What about the next person to get injured that may have gone elsewhere with this knowledge? You knew it might happen and said nothing.

[Jason]

People are getting injured and and nobody will say a name? What about the next person to get injured that may have gone elsewhere with this knowledge? You knew it might happen and said nothing.

I get the predicament that Andrew is in with honoring what he had with the other smith, but when injuries could be prevented by knowing you have a rifle that is being or was built by a smith that is building and selling bad work then IMO that trumps any agreement that is in place.

[yorketransport]

People are getting injured and and nobody will say a name? What about the next person to get injured that may have gone elsewhere with this knowledge? You knew it might happen and said nothing.

I definitely see that perspective. In this specific case though it would be Remington responsible for the faulty part. Despite all the issues I've had with this smith and my personal opinion of him, the oversized firing pin hole is a known issue with Remington 700s and that was ultimately the cause of the failure. The smith is guilty of over looking (or ignoring) the issue since I know for a fact that he test fires all guns which leave the shop.

As I said before, if anyone is looking to have a LR rifle built and is worried that this may be their smith, just shoot me a PM and we can discuss it. If/when this smith gets brought up I have and will give my opinion of his work. I get 5-10 emails/messages a month from folks looking for advice or suggestions about building a gun. I have a very long list of businesses and vendors that I've either personally worked with or somebody in the very small group of people I shoot with has worked with. Between the 4 of us we've had well over 100 custom guns built by at least 40 different shops ranging from small, no name smiths to barrel manufacturers and some of the top names in the LR hunting and target shooting community. It's hard to pin down one builder as the best, but each of us can name one smith and one vendor we'd consider the worst!

[h20hunter]

Well put. 

[The scout]

I totally respect not naming the company, but why not the smith? You said you didn’t know the work was getting sent off to him, so how would anyone else put the smiths name with the actual shop you went through?

[b23]

Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?

[Crunchy]

That primer a CCI250?  That only come from a smith issue, or is it possible that the load was still too hot?  Somewhat a rookie trying to learn signs of a hot load compared to some other issue.

[jasnt]

Cci 250’s is all I use.  Never had an issue.