More bad smith work from a big name gun builder

[yorketransport]

Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?

It really wasn't what I'd consider a hot load. If you crunch the numbers in QL using a 27/28 Nosler (97.2gr H2O capacity measured capacity) shooting 82.5gr Re 33 with an OAL of 3.580" and a 170gr projectile that's 1.72" long, you come in at around 61K psi and a velocity of 3170 fps from a 27" barrel. The load data I got with the gun was for 83.0gr of Re 33 with a velocity of 3190 fps, very close to the QL prediction. The one round I fired from the gun extracted easily despite the pierced primer and showed a velocity of 3176 fps. That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect from this case with a 170 class bullet.

That primer a CCI250?  That only come from a smith issue, or is it possible that the load was still too hot?  Somewhat a rookie trying to learn signs of a hot load compared to some other issue.

The primer is a Fed 215m. I had 10,000 of these primers from the same lot # and I've use roughly 5,000 of them without any similar issues. And I'll be the first to admit that I've shot some very questionable loads with these primers while working on a few projects. The best measure for pressure when you're working with a more common chambering is typically velocity. If all the published load manuals are getting 2850 fps with a 180gr bullet from a 7 Rem Mag loaded to 3.400" (pretty standard published load data) and you're getting 3000 fps with the same bullet at the same OAL, something's up. All things equal, velocity equals pressure.

I totally respect not naming the company, but why not the smith? You said you didn’t know the work was getting sent off to him, so how would anyone else put the smiths name with the actual shop you went through?

Maybe the better question to ask is what do I have to gain by naming the smith here? I started this post more to vent than anything. The majority of the people who've responded to this thread probably wouldn't be considering this smith for a build. I view picking a smith the same way I do hiring any other sort of contractor, get references and do interviews. If you're going to give somebody a significant chunk of your money to provide a service then you need to do your homework. You'll still get burned if you do anything often enough, but if you searched up this smith's name you'd hear plenty of stories that would make yo rethink your choices.

[yorketransport]

Well said Andrew.  Very common financial trend in this industry, which is why those of us that have been in for 10+ years are far and few.  Wonder if this guy is one of the handful of smith's that I have been fixing their work lately.  ALOT of safety issues out there lately with both local smiths and out of state guys.  Seeing stuff that shouldn't even be going out the door but it is and unfortunately some guys are getting injured lately.  Definitely do your homework when choosing a builder.

I'd bet you've had at least one come through to get fixed. I've talked to 3 shop owners who've had to fix bad work done by this guy. I'll shoot you a PM with the name, you probably won't be surprised.

[The scout]

Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?

It really wasn't what I'd consider a hot load. If you crunch the numbers in QL using a 27/28 Nosler (97.2gr H2O capacity measured capacity) shooting 82.5gr Re 33 with an OAL of 3.580" and a 170gr projectile that's 1.72" long, you come in at around 61K psi and a velocity of 3170 fps from a 27" barrel. The load data I got with the gun was for 83.0gr of Re 33 with a velocity of 3190 fps, very close to the QL prediction. The one round I fired from the gun extracted easily despite the pierced primer and showed a velocity of 3176 fps. That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect from this case with a 170 class bullet.

That primer a CCI250?  That only come from a smith issue, or is it possible that the load was still too hot?  Somewhat a rookie trying to learn signs of a hot load compared to some other issue.

The primer is a Fed 215m. I had 10,000 of these primers from the same lot # and I've use roughly 5,000 of them without any similar issues. And I'll be the first to admit that I've shot some very questionable loads with these primers while working on a few projects. The best measure for pressure when you're working with a more common chambering is typically velocity. If all the published load manuals are getting 2850 fps with a 180gr bullet from a 7 Rem Mag loaded to 3.400" (pretty standard published load data) and you're getting 3000 fps with the same bullet at the same OAL, something's up. All things equal, velocity equals pressure.

I totally respect not naming the company, but why not the smith? You said you didn’t know the work was getting sent off to him, so how would anyone else put the smiths name with the actual shop you went through?

Maybe the better question to ask is what do I have to gain by naming the smith here? I started this post more to vent than anything. The majority of the people who've responded to this thread probably wouldn't be considering this smith for a build. I view picking a smith the same way I do hiring any other sort of contractor, get references and do interviews. If you're going to give somebody a significant chunk of your money to provide a service then you need to do your homework. You'll still get burned if you do anything often enough, but if you searched up this smith's name you'd hear plenty of stories that would make yo rethink your choices.

I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

[dscubame]

All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed....  I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.

[JimmyHoffa]

Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters?  Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?

[yorketransport]

Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters?  Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?

I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I'll use a thread I started a while back as an example. I won't use Berger bullets for hunting based on my personal experience with them failing to reliably and predictably expand. I'm not the only one who holds that opinion, but if I (or somebody else) brings it up there will be a significant number of people who will come to the defense of Berger bullets for hunting because their experience is completely different than mine. So who's actually right in that situation? The bullet can't be both the best and worst bullet at the same time. It's the same with gunsmiths.

I can say that I've had nothing but bad luck with Gunsmith X (who's done excellent work for me in the past ) and that Dirk McFiddlesticks is the only guy I'll let touch my equipment (who's also done some great work ). If 80% of the customers are satisfied with the results they get from each smith, then the 20% of us who had a bad experience are considered outliers and one off experiences. My experience with the bad smith work here falls into the 20% bracket. I'm more likely to have issues on my projects because I have have unusual ideas and I'm very particular about the finished product. I'm just a difficult customer and I know that.

Basically, people are going to go out into the echo chamber of the internet and search for information. You'll find reviews saying what an amazing smith this guy is just like you'll find reviews with experiences similar to mine. The average person is going to find the information that best fits with their predetermined opinion and just dismiss the other side as the outliers.

All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed....  I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.

If you're a factory rifle shooter, what difference would it make if you knew the name or not?

[yorketransport]

Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters?  Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?

No classic work coming from that shop that I'm aware of, I'm not sure he's ever touched a piece of walnut!

[dscubame]

Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters?  Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?

I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I'll use a thread I started a while back as an example. I won't use Berger bullets for hunting based on my personal experience with them failing to reliably and predictably expand. I'm not the only one who holds that opinion, but if I (or somebody else) brings it up there will be a significant number of people who will come to the defense of Berger bullets for hunting because their experience is completely different than mine. So who's actually right in that situation? The bullet can't be both the best and worst bullet at the same time. It's the same with gunsmiths.

I can say that I've had nothing but bad luck with Gunsmith X (who's done excellent work for me in the past ) and that Dirk McFiddlesticks is the only guy I'll let touch my equipment (who's also done some great work ). If 80% of the customers are satisfied with the results they get from each smith, then the 20% of us who had a bad experience are considered outliers and one off experiences. My experience with the bad smith work here falls into the 20% bracket. I'm more likely to have issues on my projects because I have have unusual ideas and I'm very particular about the finished product. I'm just a difficult customer and I know that.

Basically, people are going to go out into the echo chamber of the internet and search for information. You'll find reviews saying what an amazing smith this guy is just like you'll find reviews with experiences similar to mine. The average person is going to find the information that best fits with their predetermined opinion and just dismiss the other side as the outliers.

All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed....  I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.

If you're a factory rifle shooter, what difference would it make if you knew the name or not?

It makes no difference to me personally as stated, it is the big picture unboxed and only my opinion.  I will go back to being a sideline observer on this one.   

[b23]

Curious, was the load a little on the hot side to begin with?

It really wasn't what I'd consider a hot load. If you crunch the numbers in QL using a 27/28 Nosler (97.2gr H2O capacity measured capacity) shooting 82.5gr Re 33 with an OAL of 3.580" and a 170gr projectile that's 1.72" long, you come in at around 61K psi and a velocity of 3170 fps from a 27" barrel. The load data I got with the gun was for 83.0gr of Re 33 with a velocity of 3190 fps, very close to the QL prediction. The one round I fired from the gun extracted easily despite the pierced primer and showed a velocity of 3176 fps. That's pretty consistent with what I'd expect from this case with a 170 class bullet.

And how close to touching the lands were you seating?

I'm sure you already know this so I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but if you have a load that is near or at max, then you seat the bullet out to touching or near touch, it'll spike up the start pressure and put you way over max in a hurry.  I've been guilty of this myself, I didn't take into account I was already at max, then seated the bullets out to right at touching and immediately got a pieced primer.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's something to always keep in mind.

[yorketransport]

And how close to touching the lands were you seating?

I'm sure you already know this so I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but if you have a load that is near or at max, then you seat the bullet out to touching or near touch, it'll spike up the start pressure and put you way over max in a hurry.  I've been guilty of this myself, I didn't take into account I was already at max, then seated the bullets out to right at touching and immediately got a pieced primer.  I'm not saying that's what happened here, but it's something to always keep in mind.

That was one of my concerns when this happened so I checked the distance to the lands when I got home and it was .020". I tried hard to come up with another explanation. I'd bet that the excessive firing pin protrusion was what pushed everything over the edge. Too much protrusion combined with an oversized firing pin hole is a recipe for disaster. If that pin were sticking out any more it would have hit the base of the bullet.

[The scout]

Does this bad smith only work on long range, plastic fantastic, barrel eaters?  Or does he also work on older, more classic stuff?

I guess if I felt like I could save even one person from wasting there money on a business I would tell who it was, especially if there work was dangerous. But I don’t go out of my comfort zone as far as smiths go if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I'll use a thread I started a while back as an example. I won't use Berger bullets for hunting based on my personal experience with them failing to reliably and predictably expand. I'm not the only one who holds that opinion, but if I (or somebody else) brings it up there will be a significant number of people who will come to the defense of Berger bullets for hunting because their experience is completely different than mine. So who's actually right in that situation? The bullet can't be both the best and worst bullet at the same time. It's the same with gunsmiths.

I can say that I've had nothing but bad luck with Gunsmith X (who's done excellent work for me in the past ) and that Dirk McFiddlesticks is the only guy I'll let touch my equipment (who's also done some great work ). If 80% of the customers are satisfied with the results they get from each smith, then the 20% of us who had a bad experience are considered outliers and one off experiences. My experience with the bad smith work here falls into the 20% bracket. I'm more likely to have issues on my projects because I have have unusual ideas and I'm very particular about the finished product. I'm just a difficult customer and I know that.

Basically, people are going to go out into the echo chamber of the internet and search for information. You'll find reviews saying what an amazing smith this guy is just like you'll find reviews with experiences similar to mine. The average person is going to find the information that best fits with their predetermined opinion and just dismiss the other side as the outliers.

All this withholding is pure crap, but proceed....  I shoot box store tikka rifles so no skin off my back yet my opinion on this bs none the less.

If you're a factory rifle shooter, what difference would it make if you knew the name or not?

I guess we can agree to disagree. Lol. Didn’t think a berger bullet not expanding was on the same level as someone’s ego and lack knowledge possibly hurting someone was on the same level. And just so you know I know the smith you are talking about I was just trying to maybe help someone else. Hopefully you have another project in the works because I really like following along with them.

[yorketransport]

I guess we can agree to disagree. Lol. Didn’t think a berger bullet not expanding was on the same level as someone’s ego and lack knowledge possibly hurting someone was on the same level. And just so you know I know the smith you are talking about I was just trying to maybe help someone else. Hopefully you have another project in the works because I really like following along with them.

I get that and I figured that anyone familiar with that segment of the shooting world would be able to figure it out pretty easy since there's been a history of questionable products coming from that shop for a while. He still has a loyal following and nothing I say is going to change the opinion of one of those folks.

[hogslayer]

Should have never left Dillon, MT!