Post by: UncleT on November 07, 2019, 10:44:12 AM
Got home Monday night from 11 days. Bald Mountain Canteen Flats. NO and I mean NO elk. Even the few tracks found were from before the freeze blast and snow drop. Essentially nothing after that.
Many big camps did not show, likely due to fire and pass closures as well, but also slow previous years. Several other camps that usually stay all season left early empty handed. Very LITTLE shooting. Scarily quiet! Same Little Naches Drainage. Same Ravens Roost. Same Bethel. Maybe I am missing something. But we broke up and visited all of these areas and talked to those we encountered. From our ridge top we can hear shots from all over the area. Across 410, down the valley on both sides.
Only a few spikes taken in my general area the whole season, that I know of? One early big bull by accident. EVERYONE I talked to, and I talked to a lot including Game Dept, was disappointed.
One encounter commented he saw more game in one day in Montana than he has seen here in 5 years.
Didn't clarify if he meant 5 days but it was said pretty strongly. One from Idaho said virtually the same thing?
Two major fires in three years in this area. Then Game Dept controlled burns even during hunting season both times.
Road grading and surface rolling throughout both sides of the Rock Creek Drainage. Scheduled during the middle of the hunting season?
One controlled burn was in preparation of a Fish Habitat Study and smoke blew up the hill through hunting areas and two camps.
...... on a mostly dry creek?????
"Game Department encounter" agreed that there was poor reporting throughout the Clockum, Wena, Oak Creek areas? And he expected "No improvement"?
I will be doing some research for Clockum, Wenas and Oak Creek-
1. When can animals be expected return to a burn area?
2. Total area included in these 3 areas and estimated number of herd.
3 point of better bulls.
Cows.
Spikes.
3 point or better Mule and Black Tail bucks
Does.
3. Elk recorded success. Last 5 years?
4. Deer recorded Success. Last 5 years?
5. Actual Local Tribe Treaty language.
6. Actual disbursement of License and hunting related funds? Not just what many keep repeating.
7. Success expectation of white tails in North eastern area?
Then research comparable states for same area and or animal density and hunt successes.
Also Treaty language and how other states handle it.
Lastly I guess I may open a Facebook page and see if I can get hunter input.
I will include WDFW as well, so they can comment if they care too.
Understanding how this type of thing normally turns out, if I get any sort of a picture I will take this
to the Game department and see what turns. We all know one voice and no data carries no water. So I am reaching out to the hunting community for input and maybe some help.
I want to research, interview and present "our" findings and seek realistic ideas for improvement.
(Feels like a term paper) Any one want to help and take a bite, let me know.
For now, share this with those you think would like to provide serious comment and send those comments to
Wa.meateater@yahoo.com.
Please. No rant about "hunting West". That is not the point here. Thanks.
Out for now.
Tony
Post by: Rainier10 on November 07, 2019, 10:54:15 AM
Options that I have thought of are a system where if you are born on an odd year you hunt elk odd years and deer even years. Buddy up with a partner born on an even year and you can hunt as a team, one hunts elk that year while the other hunts deer and vice versa. That would lower harvest and decrease opportunity but if you buddied up you would still kind of be out there hunting every year.
Post by: bobcat on November 07, 2019, 11:00:53 AM
Post by: rtspring on November 07, 2019, 11:02:25 AM
Could of filled a cow tag anytime any day.
Most people believe the elk are 15 miles deep into the wilderness, when in fact they are right under your nose.
The elk herds are in my opinion doing great!
Way fewer elk hunters this year, it was awesome.
Post by: rtspring on November 07, 2019, 11:06:22 AM
The Yakima area elk hunting is hopeless in my opinion, due to a certain group of people who are allowed to kill an unlimited number of bull elk year around, AND an unlimited number of cow elk from September 1 to December 31. Yes, you read that right. YEAR AROUND SEASON AND NO LIMITS.
You must be talking about white poachers, cause they are in fact killing way more than the indians. Spoke to a local gamey in yakima, they busted a whole bunch of them white poachers this year, and had only 1 interaction with indians when I spoke to them.
Post by: treeclimber2852 on November 07, 2019, 11:07:45 AM
Post by: Bango skank on November 07, 2019, 11:19:55 AM
The Yakima area elk hunting is hopeless in my opinion, due to a certain group of people who are allowed to kill an unlimited number of bull elk year around, AND an unlimited number of cow elk from September 1 to December 31. Yes, you read that right. YEAR AROUND SEASON AND NO LIMITS.
You must be talking about white poachers, cause they are in fact killing way more than the indians. Spoke to a local gamey in yakima, they busted a whole bunch of them white poachers this year, and had only 1 interaction with indians when I spoke to them.
Why would they bother interacting with the indians when they can do what they want? Just because the game wardens arent contacting them in the field doesnt mean theyre not killing as many or more elk than white poachers, it just means wardens arent wasting their time dealing with them when there is nothing they can do about it.
Post by: Rainier10 on November 07, 2019, 11:31:21 AM
"Don't let what you can't do get in the way of what you can do."
There are many factors that go into managing the resource. Tribal harvest is one. We don't have any control over that. There is a long list of other factors that can be addressed. Once all of those are handled we can turn our attention to the one item that can't be controlled.
Post by: rtspring on November 07, 2019, 11:37:06 AM
The Yakima area elk hunting is hopeless in my opinion, due to a certain group of people who are allowed to kill an unlimited number of bull elk year around, AND an unlimited number of cow elk from September 1 to December 31. Yes, you read that right. YEAR AROUND SEASON AND NO LIMITS.
You must be talking about white poachers, cause they are in fact killing way more than the indians. Spoke to a local gamey in yakima, they busted a whole bunch of them white poachers this year, and had only 1 interaction with indians when I spoke to them.
Why would they bother interacting with the indians when they can do what they want? Just because the game wardens arent contacting them in the field doesnt mean theyre not killing as many or more elk than white poachers, it just means wardens arent wasting their time dealing with them when there is nothing they can do about it.
They still make (contact) with anyone hunting.. ask the gamey.
Post by: Mfowl on November 07, 2019, 11:47:27 AM
Post by: 2MANY on November 07, 2019, 11:59:54 AM
Post by: gaddy on November 07, 2019, 12:02:23 PM
Post by: timberfaller on November 07, 2019, 12:08:02 PM
Anyone that thinks elk hunting is getting better didn't hunt 40 years ago.
Ya that too! :tup:
There was a nice herd getting established in the Methow back in the early 80's, hummmmmm wonder what happened to them all??? :bash:
Post by: Special T on November 07, 2019, 12:08:17 PM
One observation I had from early archery season right in the mix where the OP stated was a lack of calves. Over a few days I was close to two bands of cows totalling around 12, there was only one calf. That was the only calf I saw all season.Bingo! Calf recruitment is a big issue, and lots of cats equals low recruitment.
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Post by: Henrydog on November 07, 2019, 12:15:37 PM
Too many people and urban sprawl (not talking I5 look at the Spokcomton Valley, the West Plains, The TriCites, Moses Hole..plastic house after plastic house.
Poor science or not at all with very poor leadership since the 1980's at WDFW.
To many Cats, bears due to I5 corridor law passage and wolves.
Ignore science, over populate predators and double the human population and any game species will suffer.
Post by: borntoslay on November 07, 2019, 12:37:15 PM
This not only applies to Elk. It is all of hunting and most of recreational fishing dying in this State.The spokompton valley? Not sure im following the urban sprawl comment 😂
Too many people and urban sprawl (not talking I5 look at the Spokcomton Valley, the West Plains, The TriCites, Moses Hole..plastic house after plastic house.
Poor science or not at all with very poor leadership since the 1980's at WDFW.
To many Cats, bears due to I5 corridor law passage and wolves.
Ignore science, over populate predators and double the human population and any game species will suffer.
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Post by: D-Rock425 on November 07, 2019, 12:40:47 PM
Post by: borntoslay on November 07, 2019, 12:42:38 PM
This not only applies to Elk. It is all of hunting and most of recreational fishing dying in this State.I think it's more about the science as you stated, plenty of land out there to maintain healthy populations in my opinion.
Too many people and urban sprawl (not talking I5 look at the Spokcomton Valley, the West Plains, The TriCites, Moses Hole..plastic house after plastic house.
Poor science or not at all with very poor leadership since the 1980's at WDFW.
To many Cats, bears due to I5 corridor law passage and wolves.
Ignore science, over populate predators and double the human population and any game species will suffer.
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Post by: Ridgerunner on November 07, 2019, 12:47:35 PM
Post by: Henrydog on November 07, 2019, 12:58:05 PM
[/quote]I think it's more about the science as you stated, plenty of land out there to maintain healthy populations in my opinion.
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[/quote]
I agree borntoslay in general, but prior to all the new houses in the last 20 years between Spokane to Cd'A a lot of game has been displaced. I used to see elk and whitetail with in a mile of my house and I had Huns and Pheasants flush weekly going to the mail box. Ducks and Geese used to hit all the fields along the Spokane River daily. Now that area is houses and strip malls. I think only 2 species are adapting and prospering in a more urban Eastern Washington...Quail and Coyotes. Just my personal observation. Wolves are prospering as well...but that I think we all agree that is just an agenda
Post by: Rainier10 on November 07, 2019, 01:05:41 PM
The number of cow permits in 2016 and before had a huge influence of where we are now.:yeah:
The company line was "herds are over objective" and everyone cheered at the increased opportunity. 3 years later, a bunch of fires and a hard winter or two you have low numbers and nobody is happy.
Of course the other side of the coin is had they not reduced the number of animals in 2015 and 2016 people would have been screaming at the fact that we lost 100's of animals due to the hard winter that could have been harvested by hunters.
Darned if you do and darned if you don't.
Hind sight is always 20/20.
Post by: 2MANY on November 07, 2019, 01:28:39 PM
I think it's more about the science as you stated, plenty of land out there to maintain healthy populations in my opinion.
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[/quote]
I agree borntoslay in general, but prior to all the new houses in the last 20 years between Spokane to Cd'A a lot of game has been displaced. I used to see elk and whitetail with in a mile of my house and I had Huns and Pheasants flush weekly going to the mail box. Ducks and Geese used to hit all the fields along the Spokane River daily. Now that area is houses and strip malls. I think only 2 species are adapting and prospering in a more urban Eastern Washington...Quail and Coyotes. Just my personal observation. Wolves are prospering as well...but that I think we all agree that is just an agenda
[/quote]
Henry of course you are 100% correct but mankind never takes the blame easily.
Post by: jstone on November 07, 2019, 01:34:53 PM
Post by: ljsommer on November 07, 2019, 01:44:19 PM
Are things to the point where people who usually hunt E. WA for elk are now opting to hunt W. WA elk? Or are the east siders just planning on going to Idaho?
Post by: Rainier10 on November 07, 2019, 01:48:22 PM
Yep all those cow permits they gave out for a few years screwed the Hurd up. Anyone could have seen this coming.
I agree. They did the same thing with Methow doe permits a couple years ago.
What kills me is they gave us a free ticket to overharvest cows and does. Very few passed on the opportunity most took it. Why? Because they could. Did it hurt us down the line? Looks like it.
Natives are given free ticket to overharvest and everyone is pissed that they do but when we are given a similar opportunity that they have we do the same thing and think it is okay.
Post by: borntoslay on November 07, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
I think it's more about the science as you stated, plenty of land out there to maintain healthy populations in my opinion.
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I agree borntoslay in general, but prior to all the new houses in the last 20 years between Spokane to Cd'A a lot of game has been displaced. I used to see elk and whitetail with in a mile of my house and I had Huns and Pheasants flush weekly going to the mail box. Ducks and Geese used to hit all the fields along the Spokane River daily. Now that area is houses and strip malls. I think only 2 species are adapting and prospering in a more urban Eastern Washington...Quail and Coyotes. Just my personal observation. Wolves are prospering as well...but that I think we all agree that is just an agenda
[/quote]
Henry of course you are 100% correct but mankind never takes the blame easily.
[/quote]Agree on all this, I grew up in Spokane and have witnessed it too. I just think the urban sprawl displacement is minuscule compared to what's going on out in our forests.
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Post by: logger on November 07, 2019, 02:03:17 PM
Anyone that thinks elk hunting is getting better didn't hunt 40 years ago.couldn't agree more, hunted all that country from the late 80's till the last few years, don't even bother anymore. qaulity is pretty important to me.
Post by: stlusn30-06 on November 07, 2019, 02:14:43 PM
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
Post by: borntoslay on November 07, 2019, 02:23:24 PM
Just doing some quick internet research:Thanks for that, although I think the wolves in Idaho (panhandle) are destroying game herds they worked 50 years to restore
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
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Post by: borntoslay on November 07, 2019, 02:24:21 PM
and that's with open wolf seasonJust doing some quick internet research:Thanks for that, although I think the wolves in Idaho (panhandle) are destroying game herds they worked 50 years to restore
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
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Post by: 7mmfan on November 07, 2019, 02:43:10 PM
Can i ask a hopefully not too derailing question?
Are things to the point where people who usually hunt E. WA for elk are now opting to hunt W. WA elk? Or are the east siders just planning on going to Idaho?
Speaking for myself here. I live in Puget Sound, always hunted east side elk, and now would rather go to Idaho than hunt locally. I think west side elk hunting can actually be pretty good if you have time to scout and pattern, but I don’t like hunting in a rain forest.
Post by: Rainier10 on November 07, 2019, 02:49:09 PM
Post by: stlusn30-06 on November 07, 2019, 03:00:26 PM
Just doing some quick internet research:Thanks for that, although I think the wolves in Idaho (panhandle) are destroying game herds they worked 50 years to restore
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
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Comment wasn't that Wolves weren't having an impact on game populations, or even that Idaho Fish & Wildlife aren't looking to drop those numbers and use hunting as a solid management tool to do so. It was that for all the talk here, we always look east to Idaho and Montana for the better hunting. Which it is, and it is with higher predator numbers. There is a consistent trend as predators have expanded about how they're going to ruin and kill off all the game, yet in places where they are established the hunting is still solid. I'm not saying it won't have an impact, it obviously will. They are going to kill lots of ungulates. What I'm getting at is that for all the freaking out, there isn't one state where they have reestablished that has had their entire game pops destroyed, which seems to be the way we lean here. There is obviously something seriously wrong in WA. Deer and Elk pops are dropping. Others have pointed to habitat loss, disease, fires etc... These things have been shown in real life to destroy pop numbers over night. If we were all as fired up about slowing development or funding disease research as we are about stopping wolves, we might make some headway. I might be way wrong, cuz I don't feel like internet sleuthing for more numbers right now. If someone can point me to research that shows where a state's hunting was devastated by wolf reintroduction, I'm all ears and will change my opinion in a heart beat. This guy asked what was going on in Eastern Wa. I just laid a few things out that aren't hearsay.
Post by: borntoslay on November 07, 2019, 03:04:28 PM
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Post by: vandeman17 on November 07, 2019, 03:13:11 PM
Can i ask a hopefully not too derailing question?
Are things to the point where people who usually hunt E. WA for elk are now opting to hunt W. WA elk? Or are the east siders just planning on going to Idaho?
Speaking for myself here. I live in Puget Sound, always hunted east side elk, and now would rather go to Idaho than hunt locally. I think west side elk hunting can actually be pretty good if you have time to scout and pattern, but I don’t like hunting in a rain forest.
I do/will still hunt e wa elk but only for archery. You couldn't pay me to go out for modern unless it was with a permit in my pocket.
Post by: trophyhunt on November 07, 2019, 03:59:26 PM
I don’t believe that for a second, how many non natives are poaching in the ytc ? One native has at least 6 bull kills in that unit alone! Respectfully disagreeThe Yakima area elk hunting is hopeless in my opinion, due to a certain group of people who are allowed to kill an unlimited number of bull elk year around, AND an unlimited number of cow elk from September 1 to December 31. Yes, you read that right. YEAR AROUND SEASON AND NO LIMITS.
You must be talking about white poachers, cause they are in fact killing way more than the indians. Spoke to a local gamey in yakima, they busted a whole bunch of them white poachers this year, and had only 1 interaction with indians when I spoke to them.
Post by: elkchaser54 on November 07, 2019, 04:07:56 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on November 07, 2019, 04:11:53 PM
Couple bad winters and suddenly the sky is falling . I'm with the guy that said control what you can. The wdfw sucks but there jobs suck, they get blamed for everything . Doesnt matter if they do good, they are always the biggest scapegoat. I'd blame winters and predators more then racist propaganda.racist propaganda? Now your sounding like a lefty? Just because some of us disagree with the treaty makes us a racist, smh
Post by: fishngamereaper on November 07, 2019, 04:14:17 PM
Weird thing is when someone is chasing you with a weapon you tend to hide really good...
Numbers may be down a little but it's a cycle...always happens... :twocents:
Carry on.
Post by: idaho guy on November 07, 2019, 04:18:56 PM
and that's with open wolf seasonJust doing some quick internet research:Thanks for that, although I think the wolves in Idaho (panhandle) are destroying game herds they worked 50 years to restore
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
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:yeah: correct with a year round open season on wolves(private land) and a liberal trapping season. I think its helping the elk with the wolf seasons but still no where like it was before wolves . NO WAY Idaho has even as many cats and bears as Washington, to suggest we have more cats and bears is crazy
Post by: Scheindogg on November 07, 2019, 05:18:29 PM
Can i ask a hopefully not too derailing question?
Are things to the point where people who usually hunt E. WA for elk are now opting to hunt W. WA elk? Or are the east siders just planning on going to Idaho?
I have a friend who hinted and applied for tags for elk for 15+ years and got tired of not getting drawn (Among many other things) and has officially stopped hunting WA and makes the trek from W WA to Idaho each year.
This was his first year doing solely Idaho and he already got a nice whitetail buck to show for it :dunno:
Post by: steeleywhopper on November 07, 2019, 05:44:39 PM
Post by: TriggerMike on November 07, 2019, 05:52:56 PM
The number of cow permits in 2016 and before had a huge influence of where we are now.
And the years before 2016 the cow tag numbers were even higher. Manastash, Umtanum, etc were all 400 tags.
Post by: bigdub257 on November 07, 2019, 05:57:48 PM
Post by: bowhunterforever on November 07, 2019, 07:15:49 PM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on November 07, 2019, 07:23:01 PM
Two major fires in three years in this area. Then Game Dept controlled burns even during hunting season both times.
Road grading and surface rolling throughout both sides of the Rock Creek Drainage. Scheduled during the middle of the hunting season?
One controlled burn was in preparation of a Fish Habitat Study and smoke blew up the hill through hunting areas and two camps.
...... on a mostly dry creek?????
Controlled burning and road grading have very little to no impact on spooking elk out of an area for a long time. I was burning last weekend here in Idaho and had elk wall right by me as I was having lunch. I know several people who operate heavy machinery that usually have good chances of shooting elk and deer every year.
Fires have no impact either unless it is a catastrophic fire that nukes everything. The only impact it may have is having a closure order associated with it but a guy that hunts burned areas knows that new shoots pop up fast in the fall time the elk love the new growth in fire scars and that goes for controlled burns too.
Post by: UncleT on November 07, 2019, 11:07:46 PM
I agree in part with most of the general comments.
Not sure weather has anything to do with it. Years past herds were strong and the winters were brutal. Plenty of snow and cold back then and tracking to go with it. The past few years I haven't even needed to dry the tent to store it. Had a Grampa Tag last year so I hunted a week later. It was still the same weather as last week. Sunny days and dry ground.
I imagine there are places that one can find bands of elk. But most are migration routes to feeding stations. I figure we all understand that the "high" herd isn't bothered by a brief snow blast so they aren't moving yet. I hunted both deer and elk in the same general area and animal sightings in general have been falling off for the past several years. I wheel and bike in the same area and the same thing applies.
However, we hunted high, low, deep, and I mean deep and searched for paths, trails, routes. All the regular ones were unused. I would accept not finding the animals. I take issue with not finding tracks however. If they have "just changed their patterns" then the general discussion with hunters in the surrounding areas wouldn't suggest the same issues. Including chats withe game officers and WDFW conservation biologists.
Side note. When the stated changed from Fish and Game to Fish and Wildlife I sensed an attitude change. :dunno:
AND Kelly Susewind, Director of WDFW, came in 2018 from the department of Ecology and before that was a researcher in salt water fisheries. :bash:
Yes there are several factors involves. Disease, predators, poaching, Indian Treaty Rights (?), fires, tags (?)
But other states have similar weather (or worse) and to some degree all or most of the same issues to overcome.
Regarding predators- we even seem to disagree with where and how many are out there. And whether they reduce or make a herd healthier. I am interested in some real numbers ... not even sure I trust "our WDFW" numbers as noted in the original post and comparison with other states.
For my own sanity I will continue to investigate. I will attempt to do so objectively. I want to know not to prove something even if I "wonder". If I find anything I will post it here. Please continue to contribute. As I noted in the original post. If there turns out to be points of interest, I will take it to the WDFW, hopefully carrying the concerns of other hunters as well.
After all-it's our state and our game..... right? If we are troubled by government handling of car tabs why is it unheard of to at least wonder about the management of our traditional past time.
Out here.
UncleT
Post by: stickslinger on November 08, 2019, 05:52:58 AM
The number of cow permits in 2016 and before had a huge influence of where we are now.:yeah
The company line was "herds are over objective" and everyone cheered at the increased opportunity. 3 years later, a bunch of fires and a hard winter or two you have low numbers and nobody is happy.
Of course the other side of the coin is had they not reduced the number of animals in 2015 and 2016 people would have been screaming at the fact that we lost 100's of animals due to the hard winter that could have been harvested by hunters.
Darned if you do and darned if you don't.
Hind sight is always 20/20.
The problem with them saying numbers are over objective had nothing to do with the herd health. They did a study and felt that the ground was getting over grazed, so instead of limiting sheep or cattle numbers they wanted to reduce elk numbers. Complete incompetence!!!
Post by: Rainier10 on November 08, 2019, 07:46:32 AM
Catering to business and profits versus what is best for the wildlife and habitat.The number of cow permits in 2016 and before had a huge influence of where we are now.:yeah
The company line was "herds are over objective" and everyone cheered at the increased opportunity. 3 years later, a bunch of fires and a hard winter or two you have low numbers and nobody is happy.
Of course the other side of the coin is had they not reduced the number of animals in 2015 and 2016 people would have been screaming at the fact that we lost 100's of animals due to the hard winter that could have been harvested by hunters.
Darned if you do and darned if you don't.
Hind sight is always 20/20.
The problem with them saying numbers are over objective had nothing to do with the herd health. They did a study and felt that the ground was getting over grazed, so instead of limiting sheep or cattle numbers they wanted to reduce elk numbers. Complete incompetence!!!
Post by: stlusn30-06 on November 08, 2019, 10:30:03 AM
and that's with open wolf seasonJust doing some quick internet research:Thanks for that, although I think the wolves in Idaho (panhandle) are destroying game herds they worked 50 years to restore
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
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:yeah: correct with a year round open season on wolves(private land) and a liberal trapping season. I think its helping the elk with the wolf seasons but still no where like it was before wolves . NO WAY Idaho has even as many cats and bears as Washington, to suggest we have more cats and bears is crazy
Bears according to each states Fish and Wildlife Dept: WA = 25-30,000 ID= 20-30,000.
Idaho doesn't have cat numbers apparently. Independent orgs put the cat numbers at roughly the same. Apologies. Not more of those species. Same numbers.
Post by: Bushcraft on November 08, 2019, 10:59:49 AM
Of the 16 cows I saw (one of which I harvested), only one of them had a calf. Obviously that's a small sample, but it's a sample that gives me pause nonetheless.
There was bear, cougar, coyote and wolf sign everywhere.
Mule Deer, Bighorn Sheep and Elk trifecta for me this year...time to drop the hammer on some predators!
Post by: 2MANY on November 08, 2019, 11:06:13 AM
Good lord what a joke.
HOW DUMB CAN THEY BE????????????????????????????
Post by: Rainier10 on November 08, 2019, 11:09:36 AM
Post by: jmscon on November 08, 2019, 11:24:06 AM
When the state cuts antlerless tags way down, it means they are trying to manage the herd instead of driving them into oblivion.
‘16-‘17 winter was really bad all across the west, many animals died, it takes time for those herds to come back. I think some states reported 30-40% declines in herds if mule deer. I think elk faired better because of longer legs (I think that was one of the reasons). But if you have a couple of those winters back to back or even two years apart, it will make the situation look dire.
Washington is the smallest state in the west and if those predator numbers are correct and we have the same amount as Idaho (which is much larger) then we really need to get after it. And put a lot of pressure on the Dept. and politicians.
Just my opinion.
Post by: Rainier10 on November 08, 2019, 11:30:54 AM
I would like to see at least for the wildlife's sake the state bring in hired guns to take out the mature cats. I think there are a ton of them and they just getting smarter the older they get. They stay away from "opportunity" hunters and they get more efficient at killing not to mention they are bigger and eat more.
I think if they state could come up with a program where they are the ones taking out the mature cats for the sake of the ungulates that would really help. It would suck for the hunters to not be involved but it would at least help the ungulates out a ton. It would be like the sharp shooters taking out goats in the olympics.
If they had a donate $2 for mature cougar removal on my license that I could check I would do it for everyone in my family.
Post by: idaho guy on November 08, 2019, 07:37:07 PM
and that's with open wolf seasonJust doing some quick internet research:Thanks for that, although I think the wolves in Idaho (panhandle) are destroying game herds they worked 50 years to restore
1.) Hoof disease has taken a heavy toll over the last decade
2.) Winter of 2016 took out 30-35% of the St. Helens heard. Assume winter 2016 had impact on most of the eastside heards
3.) Natives take ~8% of the annual deer and elk harvest state wide. According to facts, they are not out slaughtering entire heards as other have indicated.
4.) Increased predator pressure is impacting elk numbers, and maybe more importantly, changing heard behavior. They are moving into heavier cover, more remote, and rugged country.
5.) While some areas are hurting, others are complaining about how big the Colockum herd is and how much damage it is causing.
Montana and Idaho have more wolves, bears, and around as many cats as Washington. Their Elk/deer pops are doing alright. It's fairly consistent on here that the same people that hate the idea of predators talk of going to hunt states with larger predator populations. Just an observation. It's ironic.
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:yeah: correct with a year round open season on wolves(private land) and a liberal trapping season. I think its helping the elk with the wolf seasons but still no where like it was before wolves . NO WAY Idaho has even as many cats and bears as Washington, to suggest we have more cats and bears is crazy
Bears according to each states Fish and Wildlife Dept: WA = 25-30,000 ID= 20-30,000.
Idaho doesn't have cat numbers apparently. Independent orgs put the cat numbers at roughly the same. Apologies. Not more of those species. Same numbers.
Fair enough :tup: I am not sure I trust either states published numbers but that’s beside the point. When I took my kid over there deer hunting the bear and especially lion sign was ridiculous compared to what I see in Idaho. It was a pretty small area compared to the whole state that we actually hunted
Post by: Fullabull on November 11, 2019, 08:07:24 PM
Post by: WapitiChaser on November 15, 2019, 02:19:24 PM
I agree with the big picture set out by the posters here, and I agree with RTS.
We have hunted the Natches drainage for years. Yes the camps were way down YAY! But that means less hunters in the woods to bust the elk out. BOO! The entrenched camps were there but there were many many more that didn’t show for whatever reason.
That said, it was a NO draw year for us. All six of my crew ghosted all the elk draws. So, on a general tag we KNEW it was gonna be sketchy. I still would not miss the week and time in the woods with my boys for anything.
Over the modern season, we saw a couple of spikes taken in the area and a cow. For us, we saw bulls and cows every day. I personally only saw ONE female calf with momma. Everything else was mature, healthy and more than able to outrun most predators. But yeah, Very few young.
But here is my closing. I think it was the warm weather this year keeping most of the herd at high altitudes. My buddy forget my game cameras in camp when he pulled out on Tuesday. A week later, I had the opportunity to swing back through and get them. Bombing down 19 at 9pm, 1/4 mile from camp, I was damn near killed when a big cow jumps out in front of the car. Following her was somewhere between 80-100 others all stampeding up the East ridge out of the valley.
Coming back west on 410, I passed another herd grazing along 410 west of ranger creek. So we pattern them and they pattern us. It’s a big picture with lots of input.
For me, I won’t starve if I dont fill the freezer. I want my elk of course, but it’s the chase too. Ya gotta consider EVERYTHING all the posters have mentioned. If you go to the VAST national forest to find that one elk, on that one week, that my friends is the very definition of FAIR chase. If those stars line up, fantastic. If not, I had a great week. I unplugged and everything fell away. I can’t wait for next season😎
Post by: huntnnw on November 15, 2019, 03:00:51 PM
Post by: RG on November 15, 2019, 03:42:32 PM
years. Your elk are still there just using different areas. You need to expand your scope when they aren’t where you expect.
Post by: Sutherland on November 15, 2019, 06:53:57 PM
Great write ups everyone! Staying positive :tup:
Post by: stlusn30-06 on November 18, 2019, 10:03:33 AM
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/management/game-harvest
Post by: kevinlisa06 on November 26, 2019, 09:42:06 PM
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Post by: Landowner on November 27, 2019, 06:50:20 PM
Post by: bbarnes on November 29, 2019, 03:56:37 AM
Post by: Naches Sportsman on November 29, 2019, 09:07:37 PM
Let's hope for a mild 2019-2020 for elk herds across the west. Seeing hundreds of elk trying to survive in over knee deep snow on the front side of clemans in mid March last spring is something I don't want to see for a few years.
Post by: 257wbymagkiller on November 29, 2019, 09:11:39 PM
Post by: 3dvapor on November 29, 2019, 10:05:36 PM
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2019, 11:05:18 PM
OTC tags and very liberal seasons took its toll on the herd never really allowing it to grow like it could, despite that the herds were growing anyways.
Now add more predators and less people hunting predators combined with continued liberal OTC seasons and the herds are now going backwards.
Its sad, because I think the NE could compensate for central WA losses and add some really great elk hunting to this state if managed properly and allowed to grow to good numbers.
Post by: Bango skank on November 30, 2019, 04:48:56 AM
My take on EW elk hunting is it never really fully developed, at least in the NE corner.
OTC tags and very liberal seasons took its toll on the herd never really allowing it to grow like it could, despite that the herds were growing anyways.
Now add more predators and less people hunting predators combined with continued liberal OTC seasons and the herds are now going backwards.
Its sad, because I think the NE could compensate for central WA losses and add some really great elk hunting to this state if managed properly and allowed to grow to good numbers.
At least they went from any elk to any bull what, 5 years ago now maybe? I think they still need to get rid of the early archery "any elk" and get rid of the antlerless special permits. I dont think otc any bull here is going too far, not enough folks around able to successfully hunt them for that to be a problem imo. We need to stop all antlerless harvest though. I really dont think there should be any cow moose permits either for that matter. Elk, moose, muley and whitetail are all in enough trouble that no antlerless harvest whatsoever should be allowed unless we manage to get our predators under control and rebuild our herds. Which is a pipe dream, i know.
Post by: boneaddict on November 30, 2019, 06:42:16 AM
Quote
Its sad, because I think the NE could compensate for central WA losses and add some really great elk hunting to this state if managed properly and allowed to grow to good numbers.
That’s the understatement of the year of the cold hard truth.
I hate to be the pessimist here, but ALL HUNTING is dying. Wolves were the best tool the anti hunters could have employed. Shortly we can take all of our technology and toys to the dump.
Post by: Fullabull on December 02, 2019, 08:28:28 PM
Post by: follow maggie on December 06, 2019, 05:21:50 PM
Post by: KFhunter on December 07, 2019, 12:33:13 PM
I don’t think wdfw cares if we hunt or not
No, as a whole this is incorrect. There's passionate hunters within WDFW ranks.
Post by: dreamingbig on February 11, 2020, 09:56:46 AM
TruthQuoteIts sad, because I think the NE could compensate for central WA losses and add some really great elk hunting to this state if managed properly and allowed to grow to good numbers.
That’s the understatement of the year of the cold hard truth.
I hate to be the pessimist here, but ALL HUNTING is dying. Wolves were the best tool the anti hunters could have employed. Shortly we can take all of our technology and toys to the dump.
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Post by: buglebrush on February 11, 2020, 10:28:26 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on February 11, 2020, 10:36:01 AM
The fault is 100% WDFW's. Their refusal to aggressively manage predators has brought us to this point, and will soon take us over the edge of no return. I am absolutely sickened by what they've done to us, and especially future generations. My Son will never experience the magic of September like he could've if WDFW didn't believe in over protecting predators at the cost of all other wildlife.Can’t disagree but you also have to blame the citizens and their love for furry predators. The states hands are tied a bit when it comes to effective management of lions and bears. And we have had a governor who loves wolves. All those are hard to overcome even if the commission only followed science instead of politics.
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Post by: dreamingbig on February 11, 2020, 10:39:28 AM
You could still offer rifle hunts for youth and elderly to help offset the Hunter recruitment issue.
And I will say it again it is radical but not without merit. After all the proposal to ban all sales of fossil fuel vehicles keeps getting traction.
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Post by: buglebrush on February 11, 2020, 10:43:00 AM
The fault is 100% WDFW's. Their refusal to aggressively manage predators has brought us to this point, and will soon take us over the edge of no return. I am absolutely sickened by what they've done to us, and especially future generations. My Son will never experience the magic of September like he could've if WDFW didn't believe in over protecting predators at the cost of all other wildlife.Can’t disagree but you also have to blame the citizens and their love for furry predators. The states hands are tied a bit when it comes to effective management of lions and bears. And we have had a governor who loves wolves. All those are hard to overcome even if the commission only followed science instead of politics.
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By this logic we shouldn't blame the SS officers who exterminated people at Auschwitz. ( Only slightly kidding) When gave you heard the WDFW telling the truth about predators in this state? When's the last time they got on Television and begged the state to allow hounds for cats, OTC spring bear, bear baiting, etc... For the most part it's obvious that the Biologists, etc care more for their jobs than telling the truth.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 11, 2020, 10:44:57 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on February 11, 2020, 10:47:31 AM
Of course it's not dying!! Did you see the proposed regs?? There will be several draw tags available this year!!!:yeah:
If it were dying they would have said "There will be a couple of draw tags available this year!!!"
Clearly we are in good shape with several tags available. :chuckle:
Post by: dreamingbig on February 11, 2020, 10:48:29 AM
By this logic we shouldn't blame the SS officers who exterminated people at Auschwitz. ( Only slightly kidding) When gave you heard the WDFW telling the truth about predators in this state? When's the last time they got on Television and begged the state to allow hounds for cats, OTC spring bear, bear baiting, etc... For the most part it's obvious that the Biologists, etc care more for their jobs than telling the truth.
My point was it was much better when hound hunting and baiting was allowed. You are correct though in that they didn’t fight and haven’t fought. We need a commission that is pro hunting. The governor appointed group certainly is not.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 11, 2020, 10:58:52 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on February 11, 2020, 11:03:53 AM
I can only speak to yakima GMU's but this last year was one of the best calf crops I've seen in years and overall elk numbers are robust. I said it last year as well. The drastic permit cuts were not warranted and a knee jerk reaction by fish and feathers. This year will be the same with their counts. Elk are scattered this year due to no snow so if they fly the "winter range" for their counts they will say there's no elk. Elk are coming out of our ears around here. It's the only game animal we have in yak county because are deer are just a shell of what they once were. Its sad.I hope you are right. The pathetic quality elk permits are being proposed again and they will not even consider archery antlerless until after their counts. So as of right now the only thing you can hunt for elk in 356 in archery season is a spike or draw one of 7 bull tags.
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Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 11, 2020, 11:11:17 AM
we do not have an elk population problem. Are we down from the 100 YEAR ALL TIME HIGH of 2013 or 14 or whatever year it was, absolutely. Populations will always rise and fall. You can't look at a 3 year window and scream that the sky is falling. That logic is silly (not saying that's what you're doing).I can only speak to yakima GMU's but this last year was one of the best calf crops I've seen in years and overall elk numbers are robust. I said it last year as well. The drastic permit cuts were not warranted and a knee jerk reaction by fish and feathers. This year will be the same with their counts. Elk are scattered this year due to no snow so if they fly the "winter range" for their counts they will say there's no elk. Elk are coming out of our ears around here. It's the only game animal we have in yak county because are deer are just a shell of what they once were. Its sad.I hope you are right. The pathetic quality elk permits are being proposed again and they will not even consider archery antlerless until after their counts. So as of right now the only thing you can hunt for elk in 356 in archery season is a spike or draw one of 7 bull tags.
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I spend a lot of days in these hills. In almost every gmu. If there is a low elk population then the only elk left must be following me around :chuckle:
Post by: dreamingbig on February 11, 2020, 11:13:33 AM
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Post by: buglebrush on February 11, 2020, 11:13:46 AM
we do not have an elk population problem. Are we down from the 100 YEAR ALL TIME HIGH of 2013 or 14 or whatever year it was, absolutely. Populations will always rise and fall. You can't look at a 3 year window and scream that the sky is falling. That logic is silly (not saying that's what you're doing).I can only speak to yakima GMU's but this last year was one of the best calf crops I've seen in years and overall elk numbers are robust. I said it last year as well. The drastic permit cuts were not warranted and a knee jerk reaction by fish and feathers. This year will be the same with their counts. Elk are scattered this year due to no snow so if they fly the "winter range" for their counts they will say there's no elk. Elk are coming out of our ears around here. It's the only game animal we have in yak county because are deer are just a shell of what they once were. Its sad.I hope you are right. The pathetic quality elk permits are being proposed again and they will not even consider archery antlerless until after their counts. So as of right now the only thing you can hunt for elk in 356 in archery season is a spike or draw one of 7 bull tags.
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I spend a lot of days in these hills. In almost every gmu. If there is a low elk population then the only elk left must be following me around :chuckle:
Great to hear! My comments and experiences are totally related to the NE Corner, and it's a different story up here. :'(
Post by: buglebrush on February 11, 2020, 11:14:39 AM
Just another example of why we desperately need OTC spring bear. :bash:
Post by: Karl Blanchard on February 11, 2020, 11:29:48 AM
Post by: 2MANY on February 11, 2020, 11:32:00 AM
Post by: buglebrush on February 11, 2020, 11:37:23 AM
We also need more logging and forest fires. I've said it a million times, its easiest to just blame predation but loss of USABLE habitat is a pandemic across the west. Just because a forest hasn't been turned into condo's doesn't mean it hasn't been lost as productive habitat :twocents:
I'm all about more logging, but there's unbelievable amounts of prime elk habitat that contains no elk in the NE corner. 10-15 years ago areas were full of elk, but are now barren in the NE Corner. Up here, it's really about the predators. However, more logging would help a lot too. Logging creates so much winter forage.
Post by: Gringo31 on February 11, 2020, 12:52:07 PM
Quote
How do we as the shepherds of Big Game in WA resuscitate it?
What makes us think we have any say? I don't think we do and I think it's foolish to believe they look to listen. It seems clear to me that all of this ends up just being passionate noise. In the end, I don't think any of it matters. WDFW is going to do what they're going to do and we can all just decide to take a bite or not. :twocents:
Post by: dvolmer on February 11, 2020, 01:29:03 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 11, 2020, 01:50:11 PM
We also need more logging and forest fires. I've said it a million times, its easiest to just blame predation but loss of USABLE habitat is a pandemic across the west. Just because a forest hasn't been turned into condo's doesn't mean it hasn't been lost as productive habitat :twocents:
I'm all about more logging, but there's unbelievable amounts of prime elk habitat that contains no elk in the NE corner. 10-15 years ago areas were full of elk, but are now barren in the NE Corner. Up here, it's really about the predators. However, more logging would help a lot too. Logging creates so much winter forage.
Appears that fires and logging have both picked up in last couple of years in NE . Habitat should follow. Control predators and we might have something.
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 11, 2020, 06:03:49 PM
Post by: Sitka_Blacktail on February 11, 2020, 08:23:59 PM
We also need more logging and forest fires. I've said it a million times, its easiest to just blame predation but loss of USABLE habitat is a pandemic across the west. Just because a forest hasn't been turned into condo's doesn't mean it hasn't been lost as productive habitat :twocents:
I'm all about more logging, but there's unbelievable amounts of prime elk habitat that contains no elk in the NE corner. 10-15 years ago areas were full of elk, but are now barren in the NE Corner. Up here, it's really about the predators. However, more logging would help a lot too. Logging creates so much winter forage.
Appears that fires and logging have both picked up in last couple of years in NE . Habitat should follow. Control predators and we might have something.
Logging and fires are good at creating feed. But there is a line at which It can be a detriment too. In snow country a good tree canopy keeps the the depth of the snow down and makes it easier for animals to find food and to travel. The best scenario is an age varied forest with openings for new growth and a good canopy for heavy snowfall and all stages in between.
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 11, 2020, 09:57:51 PM
Add 3+ Wolf Packs in that little area 24/7/365 on top of growing bear and cougar population and elk have zero chance to recover. One pack would be plenty - 3 is elimination of a species. Elk in the Blues are soon to be extinct in the next 10 years.There’s more than wolves hunting em 24/7
Post by: huntnnw on February 11, 2020, 10:12:30 PM
Post by: buglebrush on February 11, 2020, 10:17:14 PM
hunters who are not familiar with NE WA an how many bears there are its staggering. Its unbelievable how many we get on cams. Throw on top an exploding cat population and now wolves the ungulates really have no chance. Last year I saw around 20 does in August where I bear hunt and 1 fawn! my trail cams in 101 had 2 fawns for 10 does! and my house in 127 we have 5 does is all in the area and all had fawns and none survived!
:yeah:
Really is hopeless unless WDFW pulls it's head out of the sand. Even with Idaho type predator management it may be too little, too late. :bash:
Post by: huntnnw on February 11, 2020, 10:25:24 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 11, 2020, 10:38:38 PM
Elk in the Blues are soon to be extinct in the next 10 years.That's a bold prediction. I have a hard time seeing it come to fruition, but the Blues have definitely taken some big hits recently.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 12, 2020, 05:52:48 AM
:yeah: and there’s the elephant in the room...Add 3+ Wolf Packs in that little area 24/7/365 on top of growing bear and cougar population and elk have zero chance to recover. One pack would be plenty - 3 is elimination of a species. Elk in the Blues are soon to be extinct in the next 10 years.There’s more than wolves hunting em 24/7
Post by: millerwheeler on February 12, 2020, 06:04:15 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on February 12, 2020, 06:24:06 AM
Wouldn't it be more far to say predators, poachers, and tribal insane harvest numbers are put huge dents in it ?Yes, in fact, that's exactly what to say. But I'd put tribal insane harvest over poachers.
Post by: hughjorgan on February 12, 2020, 08:00:33 AM
Wouldn't it be more far to say predators, poachers, and tribal insane harvest numbers are put huge dents in it ?Yes, in fact, that's exactly what to say. But I'd put tribal insane harvest over poachers.
Not to be a buzzkill but I bet more deer and elk are killed by vehicles than by the tribe yearly to put that into perspective...
Post by: Mr Mykiss on February 12, 2020, 09:01:53 AM
Not to be a buzzkill but I bet more deer and elk are killed by vehicles than by the tribe yearly to put that into perspective...That is not true for big bulls in the Blues.
Post by: 2MANY on February 12, 2020, 09:03:40 AM
Post by: Pegasus on February 12, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 12, 2020, 09:38:26 AM
Elk are crying the Blues.
:yeah:
Post by: buglebrush on February 12, 2020, 10:02:04 AM
:yeah:Not to be a buzzkill but I bet more deer and elk are killed by vehicles than by the tribe yearly to put that into perspective...That is not true for big bulls in the Blues.
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 10:35:27 AM
What do you mean elk hunting is dying in Eastern Washington? There are hunters everywhere you go.
Hunters yes.
But Elk that is the question in hand.
If numbers keep dropping so will success rates. If success rates keep dropping it turns into a nice camping trip. And then one thinks I can go camping at a much warmer time of year and spend time with the family without paying for a tag soup dinner. Then no more elk hunting. :chuckle:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 12, 2020, 11:47:57 AM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 12, 2020, 11:51:57 AM
And shoot predators
:bfg: :bfg: :bfg: :mgun2: :mgun2: :bfg: :mgun: :mgun: :mgun: :hunt2: :hunt2: :hunt2: :stirthepot: :hunter: :hunter: :hunter: :stirthepot: :brew: :brew:
Post by: Cheif on February 13, 2020, 06:33:55 PM
I just read the new proposals for this years special permit numbers and it is making me sick. I was lucky enough to be one of the 6 Dayton Quality modern rifle hunters this last October/November. After calling the regional game biologist for the state I was worried when he told me that the Dayton area was in terrible shape with a 50% elk reduction in just the last two years. I hunted long and hard and consider myself lucky to have shot a 5x5 bull after many days of hunting. The biggest problem that I saw was the lack of calves. I am not exaggerating when I say that I saw somewhere around 45-55 cow elk during my hunt in various spots in the Dayton unit during my hunt. The cows I saw were healthy and in great shape. But NONE of them had a calf with them! Not even one! On top of that, I figure that there was only one spike shot in the entire unit during the modern rifle season. I was in and out of many camps in just about all of the areas of the unit and the only spike shot was over on Newby Ridge way out in the middle of no-mans land. This was due to the previous year having a nearly zero calf survival rate also. Another year or two of no calf survival and the final outcome will be nothing but devastating. Hopefully the semi-mild winter we have had this year will help reverse this issue. I see that the quality permits have been doubly reduced again this year and set at 3 instead of 6 like last year. In the past, this unit usually has given out approximately 15 or so permits. I also saw that the rest of the Blues permits have been slashed this year also.
This is simply unacceptable. For this state to let one of, if not the premier elk hunt in the West fizzle out to what it is in less than 10 years is criminal.... There are some folks in wdfw that should be looking for careers elsewhere. Where's the accountability?
Post by: Magnum_Willys on February 13, 2020, 07:00:33 PM
Post by: Cheif on February 13, 2020, 07:10:03 PM
Post by: idaho guy on February 14, 2020, 02:42:04 PM
Not to be a buzzkill but I bet more deer and elk are killed by vehicles than by the tribe yearly to put that into perspective...That is not true for big bulls in the Blues.
I was at taxidermist Sometime last month and a native brought in 2 huge bulls from the blues on Washington side. Be nice to hunt huge bulls when they are all bunched up on winter range. Just adding a little fuel to the fire :chuckle: :chuckle: carry on
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 02:53:33 PM
Post by: Ghost Hunter on February 14, 2020, 02:54:52 PM
Not to be a buzzkill but I bet more deer and elk are killed by vehicles than by the tribe yearly to put that into perspective...That is not true for big bulls in the Blues.
I was at taxidermist Sometime last month and a native brought in 2 huge bulls from the blues on Washington side. Be nice to hunt huge bulls when they are all bunched up on winter range. Just adding a little fuel to the fire :chuckle: :chuckle: carry on
Pics?
Post by: idaho guy on February 14, 2020, 07:13:19 PM
Not to be a buzzkill but I bet more deer and elk are killed by vehicles than by the tribe yearly to put that into perspective...That is not true for big bulls in the Blues.
I was at taxidermist Sometime last month and a native brought in 2 huge bulls from the blues on Washington side. Be nice to hunt huge bulls when they are all bunched up on winter range. Just adding a little fuel to the fire :chuckle: :chuckle: carry on
Pics?
What do you mean? No I don’t take pictures of other people’s stuff dropped of at taxi if that’s what you’re wanting. I don’t really care just passing along what I saw everybody knows it’s happening. it’s not something super unusual or hard to believe like a Bigfoot sighting. It goes on every year. Now that I actually think about it I shouldn’t have posted that as I don’t want to send this thread down a native hunting rabbit hole. But you can’t argue that it’s not screwing up elk management in the area but Washingtons biggest problem is predators.It was just that comment about the blues and I just recently seen those two big bulls taken from there. It’s not like a big secret and if you’re not aware of it you should be
Post by: hughjorgan on February 14, 2020, 08:03:56 PM
I’ve numerous pics of a couple natives from kooskia that have hunted Dayton for years, in September with a rifle. 180”-190” mulies from unit 11-11a, full velvet with a rifle, the same injun that killed a huge ram in 11 a few years ago...
I get that people are upset about what the natives do, but realistically they take relatively small amount of elk and deer every year. You can look up and see how many deer and elk are killed on our highways; WSDOT keeps statistics through their highway activity tracking system(the numbers are low in my opinion since a lot of workers never enter what they pick up and now you have salvage permits as well). A quick google search showed from 2000-2004 nearly 15000 deer state wide were killed by automobile but no one seems to care about all those deer being killed or elk along I-90 that are hit by traffic but one Indian shoots some elk and ah H E double hockey sticks breaks loose. The deer and elk herds go up and down, they’ll bounce back!
Post by: Mudman on February 14, 2020, 09:23:07 PM
Post by: buglebrush on February 14, 2020, 09:24:25 PM
Dunno bout that but I do know bear n cougar kill far more than 10000 Indians. I wish Natives would take up predator hunting n trapping. Use those treaty rights for good!:yeah:. Put that Casino money into Helicopter wolf hunting!
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:30:30 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 14, 2020, 09:45:03 PM
Post by: Cheif on February 14, 2020, 09:57:22 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 14, 2020, 10:12:07 PM
Post by: Gringo31 on February 15, 2020, 11:08:46 AM
BUT! None of that even matters. WDFW is in charge and they will "charge" us increasingly forever with no consequences to the final results of what they're selling.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 15, 2020, 01:03:32 PM
Post by: duckmen1 on February 15, 2020, 01:05:21 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on February 15, 2020, 01:29:14 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 15, 2020, 06:11:10 PM
An average of 2,994 deer and 83 elk died in automobile collisions on state highways each year from 2000-04, according to a Fish and Wildlife Department survey. However, Kelly McAllister, a state Department of Transportation wildlife biologist who tracks where animals are hit by vehicles, said maintenance crews pick up between 5,000 and 6,000 deer and elk a year from state-maintained roadways
Obviously roadkill isn’t the only factor but I think it isn’t really even brought up as much as people like to blame natives. There is a lot affecting the health of the herds. WDFW didn’t help the Yakima/Ellensburg herds with all the cow permits. Add predators to the equation, poachers, habitat, etc...
Post by: 1Guy on February 15, 2020, 09:37:05 PM
Post by: dvolmer on February 16, 2020, 12:22:30 AM
I’d say the only secret is the amount of bulls taken by tribes in the 346 area and the blues, the tribes will never post those numbers.
The tribes don't even know the numbers. No reporting required!!!
Post by: sandman76 on February 16, 2020, 09:25:28 AM
really unbelievable to see whats happened to units I use to hunt in 101 and 105 the whitetails are almost gone in many areas in the mountains. It was just 6 to 7 years ago you could throw out some bait and a cam and get lots of deer, several mature bucks. Now some of the same spots are void of deer. 20 years ago you would see mule deer in these spots, now its a miracle to see one. Our whitetail spots in 101 Id venture to guess 60-70% decline in deer in last 6 years.My friends and I could not agree more!
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Post by: sandman76 on February 16, 2020, 09:26:33 AM
Aren't they one in the sameWouldn't it be more far to say predators, poachers, and tribal insane harvest numbers are put huge dents in it ?Yes, in fact, that's exactly what to say. But I'd put tribal insane harvest over poachers.
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Post by: Gringo31 on February 16, 2020, 07:35:30 PM
What is the cougar population in the state? I realize this number is vague. When I was in NATRS classes at WSU 20 years ago I remember them saying it was around 4K. Today, it's hard to even get them to give a number.
IF (Big if) 4000 cats kill a deer or elk a week (lets pretend it's just deer) that is 4000X52 = 208K deer a year. Split that however you want betwen deer and elk. In any other category, throw in tribal harvest, normal hunting harvest, road kill etc. and you'll quickly find out that it ain't about the tribe or vehicles. It is hard to swallow when tribes say how much deer and elk and "heritage" blah, blah but they don't back it up with real numbers to actually manage it. I'm not trying to bring drama but just call out what is. The real problem is management. It's preservation vs conservation. And....it's broken.
Post by: trophyhunt on February 16, 2020, 09:18:48 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 16, 2020, 09:33:30 PM
Post by: KFhunter on February 16, 2020, 09:35:48 PM
less elk = less road kill
20 years ago I quit riding motorcycles on the hwy, too many close calls with deer.
Now I ride again on the hwy and no deer jumping out in front of me
Post by: huntnnw on February 16, 2020, 11:30:06 PM
Post by: Cheif on February 17, 2020, 08:39:11 AM
Post by: huntnnw on February 17, 2020, 08:49:16 AM
Post by: idaho guy on February 17, 2020, 12:59:02 PM
Nothing I know of. Heard they could shoot whatever they want at any hour. They would drive by camp with blankets on roof of truck and rifles with spotlights .
I think this is correct virtually no restrictions. They don’t even have to get sheep horns plugged. Washington’s biggest problem is four legged predators but anyone that doesn’t acknowledge that native hunting is making good management impossible is clueless. Tribes have too at least cooperate with the different states on management at some point. Having one group maybe draw a tag maybe in 25 years and another get completely unregulated killing is ridiculous. I am not saying take away tribal hunting but it’s long past time they need to work with the states on some common management goals.
Post by: meatwhack on February 17, 2020, 01:32:36 PM
Post by: buglebrush on February 17, 2020, 01:38:40 PM
Nothing I know of. Heard they could shoot whatever they want at any hour. They would drive by camp with blankets on roof of truck and rifles with spotlights .
I think this is correct virtually no restrictions. They don’t even have to get sheep horns plugged. Washington’s biggest problem is four legged predators but anyone that doesn’t acknowledge that native hunting is making good management impossible is clueless. Tribes have too at least cooperate with the different states on management at some point. Having one group maybe draw a tag maybe in 25 years and another get completely unregulated killing is ridiculous. I am not saying take away tribal hunting but it’s long past time they need to work with the states on some common management goals.
I see no reason for them to be able to hunt any different than me off the reservation. It's totally ridiculous! Honestly, I try to avoid even thinking about it, because it's so infuriating. The only way they should be able to do it is if they traveled there on foot, not using roads or trails built by the evil white man. Wear, eat, and use only things they built themselves with no purchased components. No Atvs, cars, camo, guns, phones, gps, tarps, tents, backpacks, phelps game calls, flashlights, etc...and even then it shouldn't be allowed. Maybe I should go to the regions of the world where my ancestors were brutally murdered and driven off their ancestral lands and demand my ancestral right to do whatever I want. :twocents:
Post by: idaho guy on February 17, 2020, 01:49:20 PM
Nothing I know of. Heard they could shoot whatever they want at any hour. They would drive by camp with blankets on roof of truck and rifles with spotlights .
I think this is correct virtually no restrictions. They don’t even have to get sheep horns plugged. Washington’s biggest problem is four legged predators but anyone that doesn’t acknowledge that native hunting is making good management impossible is clueless. Tribes have too at least cooperate with the different states on management at some point. Having one group maybe draw a tag maybe in 25 years and another get completely unregulated killing is ridiculous. I am not saying take away tribal hunting but it’s long past time they need to work with the states on some common management goals.
I see no reason for them to be able to hunt any different than me off the reservation. It's totally ridiculous! Honestly, I try to avoid even thinking about it, because it's so infuriating. The only way they should be able to do it is if they traveled there on foot, not using roads or trails built by the evil white man. Wear, eat, and use only things they built themselves with no purchased components. No Atvs, cars, camo, guns, phones, gps, tarps, tents, backpacks, phelps game calls, flashlights, etc...and even then it shouldn't be allowed. Maybe I should go to the regions of the world where my ancestors were brutally murdered and driven off their ancestral lands and demand my ancestral right to do whatever I want. :twocents:
I agree 100 percent. They should be able to do whatever on reservation but abide by rules when off the Rez. I know one and told him same thing ride your horse and use a longbow and I would feel better about it. They use 3/4 ton diesel trucks and 300 ultra mags to shoot bull elk during the rut and then later on winter range.
Post by: huntnnw on February 17, 2020, 02:43:46 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on February 17, 2020, 04:11:35 PM
What cracks me up with the blues herd is there were never elk there. White man brought the first ones in by railroad from Yellowstone in the early 1900’s. Somehow Indians have rights to shoot them . What’s funny is I have never witnessed a Indian out of their rig hunting . Talked to a rancher one day rounding up cattle and said he loses several cows a year to being shot and left.
Same thing how they claim rights to hunt around Yakima and Ellensburg. If you read the WDFW historic range description for these locations they claim archeological evidence of elk being in these areas and used by natives but it is rather vague on what evidence they write of.
Post by: idahohuntr on February 18, 2020, 08:01:30 PM
Elk are native to most of North America, including the Blue Mountains in Oregon and Washington. Overharvest and unregulated hunting in the middle 1800's drove elk to near extinction in much of the Northwest. Elk were brought back as a result of several conservation measures including transplants from Yellowstone.
Tribes have treaties with the United States - those treaties supersede state law and thus do not require Tribes to have any permission or cooperation with state fish and game agencies. Those treaties reserved the right to harvest elk - nothing about them limited tribes to any particular method or technology. The rights to hunt and fish were not limited to just the reservation boundaries...it explicitly included areas off reservation. Nearly everything I mention above has been adjudicated in the Supreme Court.
All that said, of course co-management would be desirable for everyone, but we won't get anywhere if non-tribal attitudes are that Tribes need to follow state law or that non-tribal hunters should have the same rights and opportunities as tribal hunters. I don't state this as my opinion of what is right/wrong - just the facts as I see them. :twocents:
Post by: meatwhack on February 18, 2020, 08:11:21 PM
Post by: idaho guy on February 18, 2020, 08:27:54 PM
Post by: idahohuntr on February 18, 2020, 08:45:51 PM
Don’t the treaties say “in common with” for hunting off the reservation?Many do, and it's been the subject of litigation many times. In short, SCOTUS holds that the language does not mean equal rights/opportunities as non tribal people...otherwise what was the treaty for?
Post by: meatwhack on February 18, 2020, 08:56:31 PM
Post by: jstone on February 18, 2020, 09:00:37 PM
Post by: huntnnw on February 18, 2020, 10:08:15 PM
Lot of misunderstanding and misinformation in some of these posts...let me clarify a few things:
Elk are native to most of North America, including the Blue Mountains in Oregon and Washington. Overharvest and unregulated hunting in the middle 1800's drove elk to near extinction in much of the Northwest. Elk were brought back as a result of several conservation measures including transplants from Yellowstone.
Tribes have treaties with the United States - those treaties supersede state law and thus do not require Tribes to have any permission or cooperation with state fish and game agencies. Those treaties reserved the right to harvest elk - nothing about them limited tribes to any particular method or technology. The rights to hunt and fish were not limited to just the reservation boundaries...it explicitly included areas off reservation. Nearly everything I mention above has been adjudicated in the Supreme Court.
All that said, of course co-management would be desirable for everyone, but we won't get anywhere if non-tribal attitudes are that Tribes need to follow state law or that non-tribal hunters should have the same rights and opportunities as tribal hunters. I don't state this as my opinion of what is right/wrong - just the facts as I see them. :twocents:
history of the Blue mt elk
https://lmtribune.com/feature/blue-mountain-elk-herd-was-started-years-ago-this-is/article_33556b19-6860-5284-89f1-51e5a326c35b.html
Post by: idahohuntr on February 18, 2020, 10:59:11 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on February 19, 2020, 05:21:14 AM
Post by: nwwanderer on February 21, 2020, 07:13:53 AM
Post by: Stein on February 21, 2020, 08:15:15 AM