Post by: actionshooter on January 01, 2020, 09:29:21 PM
My personal opinion is that the number points required for some hunts could never realistically be achieved. Some of the better units in Wyoming have daylight at the end of the tunnel.... but a top unit in Utah?, ya right. I just burned my Colorado deer points in 2019 and starting over completely sucks...
There is a possibility that when the economy drops, a bunch of people will drop out of the game, but other than that... does it just keep getting worse?
What's everybody's elses take on this?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 01, 2020, 09:46:49 PM
Reading draw trends is another big thing. Units getting blown up and creeping is usually pretty easy to spot. Research is never ending and a guy needs to continually update his data. I'm researching stuff now with the intention of hunting 2 to 3 years from now. Endless resources out there to help a guy do this and also to understand how stuff works.
Sucks you got burned on speed goats. We bailed last second on them last year because of my NV tag and it's a good thing because we wouldnt have drawn as the unit we were gonna apply for also crept
Post by: huntnnw on January 01, 2020, 09:56:42 PM
Post by: actionshooter on January 01, 2020, 10:04:28 PM
Burning points is a good thing in my opinion. There's so many absolutely killer tags out there that can be had with little to no points. You are now free to just start learning some areas and get them producing. Can't do that if you only go every 8 years. The whole dynamic of an area can change in that amount of time. The amount of people out there with point paralysis because they wanna make good on their "investment" is staggering. My inbox is proof :chuckle: So many people don't understand the draws and therefore keep getting "screwed" out of their tags but in reality they never had a chance because they didnt have the points to begin with.
I'm researching stuff now with the intention of hunting 2 to 3 years from now.
I like your take on the whole system... makes sense.
I have definitely have fallen into that "paralysis" category, where there are units that are a focus and just collect points until there are enough to draw, not looking at other units....
Thanks for kicking me in the sack.. :)
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 06:24:57 AM
Points are the devil!
New Mexico and Idaho. YUM!
THe rest is a money grab. Kinda like walking into a casino with a wad of cash.
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2020, 06:34:46 AM
Post by: huntnnw on January 02, 2020, 06:49:52 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on January 02, 2020, 07:01:29 AM
Post by: hunter399 on January 02, 2020, 07:06:46 AM
I try to buy less each year ,in down to 3-4 permits I buy as dream hunts.And my wife calls me a sucker every year.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 02, 2020, 07:15:31 AM
Obviously that's not everyone and as Shane pointed out, there's some bonus point systems that are getting worse, especially with the mass influx of people getting into the out of state game.
There's definitely some tricky spots to be in as far as points go in various states but I feel that a lot of times it's due to guys just misunderstanding their position and choices. If you have 16 points for CO elk and you are saving up for a unit 201 tag then you literally won't ever get there. Its physically impossible to ever "catch up". There will never be enough tags to flush the top end of applicants.
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 07:45:05 AM
:)
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 07:46:47 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on January 02, 2020, 07:56:53 AM
While in many ways the various systems are no different than a ponzi scheme I think folks do have to look at them in some ways like you would carefully analyze your retirement or investment accounts. In short - how are you going to allocate your available budget and what are your goals, and how much time/money do you have to hunt in a given year? Knowing answers to these questions will help you develop a strategy that ideally doesn't have you sitting on the sidelines if your goal is to hunt every year. Your risk/reward desires, just like investing, will also help with your strategy. Are you fine sitting on the sidelines hoping for a miracle tag (e.g., high risk) - or would you rather key in on areas that take few points? Now - the real benefit to hunting multiple states - you can tailor strategies to each states system and accomplish as many of your goals as possible...for example, you can have some "swing for the fences" states/units...and then apply in easier to draw units in other states. A critical thing to do though - as mentioned earlier - is to fully understand each states system and where you are applying. For example, make sure your swing for the fences units/draws actually give you a chance...especially as a NR. Depending on the state, quotas, point systems - you may not be eligible for the tag at all and so it could be a waste to apply.
One nice thing about today's world - information is so easy to gather that anyone with any desire can develop a well informed strategy with relative ease. With all my spreadsheets, notes, data files I've amassed over decades...I wish I would have had the skill and insight to put together a site like GoHunt so I could have made a fortune and then not worried about drawing tags for great hunts!
Post by: Bigshooter on January 02, 2020, 08:05:01 AM
Post by: Ironhead on January 02, 2020, 08:16:41 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 08:19:43 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 02, 2020, 08:22:26 AM
Post by: Ironhead on January 02, 2020, 08:23:00 AM
One of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike::bash:
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2020, 08:29:18 AM
Post by: grundy53 on January 02, 2020, 08:30:24 AM
One of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike:Agreed. It's usually because they have a lot of points and still can't draw. Lol
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 08:34:34 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2020, 09:21:03 AM
One of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike:But will you also agree that when a state is into the point system this far it's not right to just abandoned the program?
Post by: WSU on January 02, 2020, 09:29:48 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 09:33:31 AM
IF they did, and adopted an Idaho like system, I could legitimately have a chance to hunt goats or sheep before I died if not in a year or two. Whereas now, even at max points, odds are it will never happen.
You are correct WSU
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2020, 09:40:46 AM
One of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike:But will you also agree that when a state is into the point system this far it's not right to just abandoned the program?
I think you would be surprised at how many hunters would be ok with abandoning the program and losing their points, especially ones with children who hunt. I don't have kids but still would be totally ok with getting rid of points and losing mine.
Post by: actionshooter on January 02, 2020, 09:41:33 AM
Oil species (moose, sheep, mtn goat) are a different beast all together because there isn't enough of that resource to meet the demand. If a guy can't come to peace with the fact he probably won't draw in his lifetime for those species, he probably shouldn't apply.Yep,
Aside from Idaho, I don't even bother with these out of state, the odds are too low and the cost is too high..
Alaska is the obvious choice for moose, but they way I see goat and sheep, I would rather pay up and go than gamble on winning the animal lotto before old age gets me...
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 09:42:54 AM
Part of the homework Karl is talking about.... As a non-resident applying out of state you need to pay attention to each system, not just where you want to hunt etc. Many states have caps on Non-residents. You need to pay attention to how many tags are even available. Its very easy to apply for a hunt where there isnt even a non resident tag available. I see it every year when looking at stats. They will gladly take your cash. You are essentially handing them your money with ZERO chance of drawing. This is more pertinent with OIL hunts where tag numbers are low.
Getting lower every year too. Thanks to the wolves.
Post by: grundy53 on January 02, 2020, 09:47:05 AM
Agreed. I would gladly give mine upOne of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike:But will you also agree that when a state is into the point system this far it's not right to just abandoned the program?
I think you would be surprised at how many hunters would be ok with abandoning the program and losing their points, especially ones with children who hunt. I don't have kids but still would be totally ok with getting rid of points and losing mine.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2020, 09:50:59 AM
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 09:52:44 AM
Oil species (moose, sheep, mtn goat) are a different beast all together because there isn't enough of that resource to meet the demand. If a guy can't come to peace with the fact he probably won't draw in his lifetime for those species, he probably shouldn't apply.Yep,
Aside from Idaho, I don't even bother with these out of state, the odds are too low and the cost is too high..
Alaska is the obvious choice for moose, but they way I see goat and sheep, I would rather pay up and go than gamble on winning the animal lotto before old age gets me...
I dropped a couple, feel too invested in others. Thats the hook.
Post by: actionshooter on January 02, 2020, 09:54:54 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 02, 2020, 09:55:16 AM
absolutely in a heart beat!!!!!! You paid a small fee for a chance to draw a tag and didn't win. That's the only investment anyone is into their points. It's a losing lotto ticket. Nothing more. If people could wrap their brains around that, it would be a no brainer to dump WA system.Agreed. I would gladly give mine upOne of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike:But will you also agree that when a state is into the point system this far it's not right to just abandoned the program?
I think you would be surprised at how many hunters would be ok with abandoning the program and losing their points, especially ones with children who hunt. I don't have kids but still would be totally ok with getting rid of points and losing mine.
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
As for starting from scratch for guys who burned or new hunters just starting, I couldn't imagine not jumping into the game. There's endless low point/no point opportunities out there for some really solid hunts. My daughter and nephew are coming of age and we are absolutely jumping in with both feet. Can't go on cool hunts in amazing places if you don't play the game. We will play the game :twocents:
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 10:00:17 AM
I have a buddy who just moved to NM and has lived in CO for the last 30 years. We sat around in hunting camp (in CO) this year talking about the whole points situation, specifically in UT... The state realizes that on some of their hunts that newer hunters aren't putting in for b/c they basically know they couldn't ever draw the tag. They also see that there are more and more hunts where this is happening. Its his opinion that at some point UT will revise their system b/c the revenue is declining from this...….
I'm sitting at max in every category there. Well as max as I can be. Without diving into it, folks that have applied there in the past will know what I am talking about
Post by: actionshooter on January 02, 2020, 10:03:48 AM
Jesus! When are you going??I have a buddy who just moved to NM and has lived in CO for the last 30 years. We sat around in hunting camp (in CO) this year talking about the whole points situation, specifically in UT... The state realizes that on some of their hunts that newer hunters aren't putting in for b/c they basically know they couldn't ever draw the tag. They also see that there are more and more hunts where this is happening. Its his opinion that at some point UT will revise their system b/c the revenue is declining from this...….
I'm sitting at max in every category there.
My buddy drew Books Cliffs Elk this year and he had something come up so he turned the tag back in and is hoping he can draw it again this year....
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 02, 2020, 10:04:27 AM
That being said, I'm not totally convinced it would give me that good of an opportunity to hunt more game. We have a population 5x higher than ID, 10x+ Wyoming and about 6-7x Montana. At the end of the day, we have way more people here. It is what it is.
Post by: actionshooter on January 02, 2020, 10:07:18 AM
If I had to give up all my points tomorrow, I totally would. It's a worthless game.Yah... Washington is a different animal for sure... I'm not sold that a different system would change anything here..... But there is no way I'm going to say WDFW did something right either :)
That being said, I'm not totally convinced it would give me that good of an opportunity to hunt more game. We have a population 5x higher than ID, 10x+ Wyoming and about 6-7x Montana. At the end of the day, we have way more people here. It is what it is.
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 10:08:26 AM
I have a buddy who just moved to NM and has lived in CO for the last 30 years. We sat around in hunting camp (in CO) this year talking about the whole points situation, specifically in UT... The state realizes that on some of their hunts that newer hunters aren't putting in for b/c they basically know they couldn't ever draw the tag. They also see that there are more and more hunts where this is happening. Its his opinion that at some point UT will revise their system b/c the revenue is declining from this...….
I'm sitting at max in every category there.
Jesus! When are you going??
My buddy drew Books Cliffs Elk this year and he had something come up so he turned the tag back in and is hoping he can draw it again this year....
Now that soccer is over, I'll be a lot more aggressive. The rest is up to UTAH. LOL
Post by: The Big Game Hunter on January 02, 2020, 10:25:54 AM
Its great if you have 20 points in the bank but its a real pisser when you reset or you want to get your kid going.You're certainly right about the frustrating aspects of the point system for a kid or other new hunter starting from zero.
When it comes to having 20 points though, it's not a sure thing even at that point level in Washington. I recently checked draw odds for deer and elk (never mind the OIL species) in Washington when goHunt started offering data for the state. I almost had to literally pick my jaw off the floor when I saw single digit draw odds for some deer and elk hunts even when the applicant has over 20 points...
Post by: huntnphool on January 02, 2020, 10:28:37 AM
One of my favorites are when people think points are the way to go, or preach that we should go to a preference point system. :yike:But will you also agree that when a state is into the point system this far it's not right to just abandoned the program?
You have to remember that “the system” is doing exactly what it was intended to do, raise revenue.
There are ways to get rid of the system that would be fair to hunters/investors, the problem is the state doesn’t want to get rid of “the system”!
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 02, 2020, 10:31:51 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on January 02, 2020, 10:33:14 AM
I have a buddy who just moved to NM and has lived in CO for the last 30 years. We sat around in hunting camp (in CO) this year talking about the whole points situation, specifically in UT... The state realizes that on some of their hunts that newer hunters aren't putting in for b/c they basically know they couldn't ever draw the tag. They also see that there are more and more hunts where this is happening. Its his opinion that at some point UT will revise their system b/c the revenue is declining from this...….Long-term I do see states revising their systems to include more random opportunity...whether they are a preference state like CO or bonus or hybrid state system. Revenue, recruitment, equity, etc will drive the changes as the downsides of points become more and more apparent and the pressure will grow to change. However - as much as many of us would like a "burn the house down" approach, it will never fly :twocents:
Post by: vandeman17 on January 02, 2020, 10:36:56 AM
Think how much some hunters have invested in points in states where non residents are required to purchase a hunting lisc and then a special permit app just to apply then to pay more for the points. Is it right to start everyone back at zero when they have that much invested?
My comments were purely based on WA getting rid of the system.
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2020, 10:42:52 AM
Its great if you have 20 points in the bank but its a real pisser when you reset or you want to get your kid going.You're certainly right about the frustrating aspects of the point system for a kid or other new hunter starting from zero.
When it comes to having 20 points though, it's not a sure thing even at that point level in Washington. I recently checked draw odds for deer and elk (never mind the OIL species) in Washington when goHunt started offering data for the state. I almost had to literally pick my jaw off the floor when I saw single digit draw odds for some deer and elk hunts even when the applicant has over 20 points...
I know! Thats why the pill of throwing out the system isn't hard to swallow for a lot of hunters. If people knew the real truth behind points. As Huntinphool pointed out, very hard for them (WDFW) to swallow! They are getting what they want.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 02, 2020, 10:43:12 AM
Think how much some hunters have invested in points in states where non residents are required to purchase a hunting lisc and then a special permit app just to apply then to pay more for the points. Is it right to start everyone back at zero when they have that much invested?I’d give all my points back in any state that I have them and not think twice about the money I’ve paid. 8 years in Utah and Wyoming isn’t necessarily cheap. 4 years in Colorado also.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 02, 2020, 10:44:53 AM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 02, 2020, 10:45:46 AM
Think how much some hunters have invested in points in states where non residents are required to purchase a hunting lisc and then a special permit app just to apply then to pay more for the points. Is it right to start everyone back at zero when they have that much invested?I’d give all my points back in any state that I have them and not think twice about the money I’ve paid. 8 years in Utah and Wyoming isn’t necessarily cheap. 4 years in Colorado also.
I'd give you all of my points if you'd teach me how to just SEE a buck like the one in your avatar :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on January 02, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
Post by: mburrows on January 02, 2020, 10:51:18 AM
Its great if you have 20 points in the bank but its a real pisser when you reset or you want to get your kid going.You're certainly right about the frustrating aspects of the point system for a kid or other new hunter starting from zero.
When it comes to having 20 points though, it's not a sure thing even at that point level in Washington. I recently checked draw odds for deer and elk (never mind the OIL species) in Washington when goHunt started offering data for the state. I almost had to literally pick my jaw off the floor when I saw single digit draw odds for some deer and elk hunts even when the applicant has over 20 points...
Just wait until they update the with the draw odds from 2019 after they cut back all the permits. Your draw odds for a quality archery elk tag in the colockum last year were 3.5% with 23 points. Its not inconceivable to think somebody with 5-10 points in their early 30's may never draw a quality tag in WA.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 02, 2020, 10:52:10 AM
oh you can't teach that level of special 😂Think how much some hunters have invested in points in states where non residents are required to purchase a hunting lisc and then a special permit app just to apply then to pay more for the points. Is it right to start everyone back at zero when they have that much invested?I’d give all my points back in any state that I have them and not think twice about the money I’ve paid. 8 years in Utah and Wyoming isn’t necessarily cheap. 4 years in Colorado also.
I'd give you all of my points if you'd teach me how to just SEE a buck like the one in your avatar :chuckle:
Post by: Buckhunter24 on January 02, 2020, 10:55:02 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2020, 10:56:07 AM
If I had to give up all my points tomorrow, I totally would. It's a worthless game.General population, not hunters and definitely not non-resident hunters.
That being said, I'm not totally convinced it would give me that good of an opportunity to hunt more game. We have a population 5x higher than ID, 10x+ Wyoming and about 6-7x Montana. At the end of the day, we have way more people here. It is what it is.
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2020, 11:02:14 AM
It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.I would guess that once the state is 'packed' with wolves, it will go permit only--if not sooner. Maybe just elk and muleys first, then white/blacktail. Just have to figure if WDFW would be calculating permits off a harvest needed or revenue. They like to sell 'opportunity' not animals, so that could be the way to clear points and keep revenue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 02, 2020, 11:06:06 AM
It’s easy. Bumble around long enough to get bored then decide to go follow a elk where you don’t have a elk tag and bumble around some more then they just appear in the spotter. :dunno: :chuckle:Think how much some hunters have invested in points in states where non residents are required to purchase a hunting lisc and then a special permit app just to apply then to pay more for the points. Is it right to start everyone back at zero when they have that much invested?I’d give all my points back in any state that I have them and not think twice about the money I’ve paid. 8 years in Utah and Wyoming isn’t necessarily cheap. 4 years in Colorado also.
I'd give you all of my points if you'd teach me how to just SEE a buck like the one in your avatar :chuckle:
Post by: Bigshooter on January 02, 2020, 11:58:24 AM
Every system has its pros and cons obviously.
Part of the homework Karl is talking about.... As a non-resident applying out of state you need to pay attention to each system, not just where you want to hunt etc. Many states have caps on Non-residents. You need to pay attention to how many tags are even available. Its very easy to apply for a hunt where there isnt even a non resident tag available. I see it every year when looking at stats. They will gladly take your cash. You are essentially handing them your money with ZERO chance of drawing. This is more pertinent with OIL hunts where tag numbers are low.
Getting lower every year too. Thanks to the wolves.
I can get a tag in every western state for deer or elk every year. It might not be "the best" tag/unit or with a rifle. But there are plenty of tags to get every year. And it's not hard to figure out.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 02, 2020, 12:05:10 PM
It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Post by: huntnphool on January 02, 2020, 12:10:17 PM
Think how much some hunters have invested in points in states where non residents are required to purchase a hunting lisc and then a special permit app just to apply then to pay more for the points. Is it right to start everyone back at zero when they have that much invested?
My comments were purely based on WA getting rid of the system.
+1
Post by: idahohuntr on January 02, 2020, 12:13:29 PM
Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
Post by: huntnphool on January 02, 2020, 12:24:17 PM
Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
+1
Post by: walleye1 on January 02, 2020, 12:31:36 PM
Post by: Buckjunkie on January 02, 2020, 12:33:59 PM
I like the various draw systems because it allows me to plan. If every state was random or like Washington you will have years with too many tags and years without any tags.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on January 02, 2020, 12:44:13 PM
Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
Post by: ctwiggs1 on January 02, 2020, 12:47:06 PM
Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
Not really. It's all still a game of chance. His odds are significantly higher but the truth is plenty of guys get drawn with 1 point.
Post by: Bigshooter on January 02, 2020, 12:51:27 PM
I don't really have a problem with the points systems in any states. I think most people are clueless on how different each are. The biggest problem is people's unrealistic expectations of getting a coveted tag. If you want the coveted tags you'll probably never get them. If you want to hunt you will get tags.
I agree 100%
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 02, 2020, 12:58:15 PM
[/quote]
bigshooter summed up what I was trying to get at. Where there is a will there is a way. The only thing sitting in a guys way from going hunting is himself. It may require learning a different weapon discipline, season, etc but the opportunities are there for the taking.
Post by: idahohuntr on January 02, 2020, 01:17:48 PM
Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Post by: Buckhunter24 on January 02, 2020, 01:22:20 PM
Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Yeah copy that on the youth thats a good point
Post by: Curly on January 02, 2020, 01:40:48 PM
Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Sounds racist to me......
Post by: JimmyHoffa on January 02, 2020, 01:43:40 PM
Don't give WDFW anymore ideas. I could see them making a special category to promote more diversity in hunting.Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Sounds racist to me......
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 02, 2020, 02:23:57 PM
Only sitting on max points in one state (Wyoming elk) but the other states I’ve switched to trying to draw good tags when the schedule allows. Another 25 years and I may not even be that interested in hunting some of these critters, but at least if I do it now I’ll have the memories of the hunt, no matter the outcome of the hunt or the size of the critters and really isn’t that what it is all about?
It’s my kids I really feel sorry for, the explosion of the popularity of applying for hunts across the west is amazing, I almost see some guys bragging about their points like they would an animal they shot. And the truth is that may be their only reward for a lot of them. Go and make the memories, get out in the field and enjoy every trip and road trip is what I say.
Post by: idahohuntr on January 02, 2020, 03:24:14 PM
You guys have just figured out how to end the points system in WA. Find your most left leaning state legislator and tell them point systems are discriminatory against minority hunters...as historically they had lower likelihood of growing up in hunting families etc...I wish I was joking...I really think this would work. Although the new system of applying would require race, sex, etc. so your application could be properly sorted :yike:Don't give WDFW anymore ideas. I could see them making a special category to promote more diversity in hunting.Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Sounds racist to me......
Post by: Bango skank on January 02, 2020, 03:31:23 PM
You guys have just figured out how to end the points system in WA. Find your most left leaning state legislator and tell them point systems are discriminatory against minority hunters...as historically they had lower likelihood of growing up in hunting families etc...I wish I was joking...I really think this would work. Although the new system of applying would require race, sex, etc. so your application could be properly sorted :yike:Don't give WDFW anymore ideas. I could see them making a special category to promote more diversity in hunting.Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Sounds racist to me......
I would simply self identify as a left handed lesbian midget eskimo albino. Get drawn every year.
Post by: fishngamereaper on January 02, 2020, 03:32:09 PM
Until I get my poor man's sheep tag.
Post by: buckfvr on January 02, 2020, 03:38:05 PM
Post by: syoungs on January 02, 2020, 04:04:38 PM
You guys have just figured out how to end the points system in WA. Find your most left leaning state legislator and tell them point systems are discriminatory against minority hunters...as historically they had lower likelihood of growing up in hunting families etc...I wish I was joking...I really think this would work. Although the new system of applying would require race, sex, etc. so your application could be properly sorted :yike:Don't give WDFW anymore ideas. I could see them making a special category to promote more diversity in hunting.Maybe, but one could make an equally compelling case that youth just getting into hunting should have priority over the guy whose hunted/applied/drawn tags for 40-50 years as well :dunno:Both! :chuckle:It seems to me that Washington's point system will have to end at some point. When it gets to where people have 40 to 50 points and still can't draw anything, and new hunters have essentially zero chance of drawing any special hunts, I just don't see how it can continue.
The only way it could is if general deer and elk seasons are eliminated, and therefore permit numbers increased by a huge number. But again that would cause a decrease in revenue so it's unlikely to happen.
Moose, sheep, and mountain goat NEVER should have used points. It just can't work mathematically. The point system for those species should be ended immediately.
So are we gonna get rid of the system because guys with 40 to 50 pts can't draw or the guys with no pts can't draw?
Anything other than random requires picking winners and losers...and I personally don't see how any particular group can make a strong case they are more deserving of the public's limited wildlife resources.
I think the guy with 40 or 50 points might not lose much money wise but hes put in time applying and been dissapointed for a long time. I put in for the first time last year and have no problem.saying the guy.thats been.waiting in line longer should get a turn before me
One thing all of society can agree on...able bodies white men, 20-60 yrs old...no preference for anything :chuckle:
Sounds racist to me......
Affirmative tag action.... god I hope they don't stumble across this thread.
Post by: theleo on January 06, 2020, 10:45:17 AM
Post by: Bob33 on January 15, 2020, 02:08:15 PM
https://www.mtnpursuit.org/nonresidents_are_selling_preference_points_under_wyoming_s_party_hunt_draw_regulations
Post by: Stein on January 15, 2020, 02:18:18 PM
If you want to hunt the premium units, you need to break out the checkbook one way or another.
Post by: bobcat on January 15, 2020, 02:26:26 PM
Post by: Stein on January 15, 2020, 02:31:07 PM
Anyway, I don't apply as a party but don't really care one way or another, it's just noise in a broken system in my opinion.
Post by: mburrows on January 15, 2020, 06:00:51 PM
I've heard that Colorado does not average points, but instead they simply use the points of the party member who has the lowest number. Not sure if that's true though, as I don't apply in Colorado.
Correct. Montana does the same
Post by: BULLBLASTER on January 15, 2020, 06:57:14 PM
Post by: vandeman17 on January 15, 2020, 07:06:39 PM
People “selling” their points is definitely a thing. It’s just a biproduct of the rules as they are. I’m not sure how they could put a stop to it while keeping averages for party apps. I really don’t think it’s a rampant or issue that really needs to be solved. It certainly doesn’t hurt the other people with Max or near max points. Ans is probably a small group for the mid range point units. Heck I applied this year with buddies having less points so basically the same thing... I’ll make them buy me lunch so then I can be a points seller too. :chuckle:
Agreed. It’s a mutual agreement between the parties. I wouldn’t personally do it but to each their own
Post by: Stein on January 15, 2020, 07:49:03 PM
I've heard that Colorado does not average points, but instead they simply use the points of the party member who has the lowest number. Not sure if that's true though, as I don't apply in Colorado.
Correct. Montana does the same
Montana averages points for the general license for sure (preference points).
Quote
Up to 5 applicants may apply as a party. FWP shall use an average of the number of preference points accumulated by those applicants to determine the party's preference points.
I thought they did for special permits (bonus points), but I couldn't find anything on the website or internet.
Post by: dvolmer on January 15, 2020, 08:22:59 PM
The reason you don't here the state of Wyoming making a big deal about it is because all they care about is getting their money.