Hunting Washington Forum
Other Activities => Fishing => Topic started by: 87Ford on January 19, 2020, 07:08:26 PM
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Bearpaw's thread requesting stories and photos from the new 2020 fishing season got me thinking.. Today, instead of fishing, I watched two crappy football games. Why? Because steelheading as I remember it is gone. As of Thursday 1/16, the Nooksack, Stilly, Sky, and Snoqualmie rivers have returned 112 hatchery steelhead from a combined plant of 486,768 smolt. That is a return of .00023 or just .023%. It's unprecedented. The reasons are surely complex and I didn't start this thread to discuss that.. I'm just shaking my head over this decline. Never thought I'd see this day. It really seems to be over in the Puget Sound basin.
I won't even start with the days of fishing these same rivers in March and April. It's over.. I've been reading the thread on where to go for retirement. Maybe it's time. :sry:
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It is a very sad state of affairs. With the same old Chambers creek fish inbreeding and terrible ocean conditions, it doesn't surprise me though. I grew up fishing the Sky and Skagit/Sauk during spring catch and release. That's where I learned to fish. Last years Skagit season was refreshing but sobering at the same time. The amount of pressure was unreal at times. Part of me hopes it doesn't open again.
I caught my first steelhead in 1989 plunking on the Crab Bar on tha Snohomish. Rowed my first steelhead up on a plug when I was 12 in 1996 in the Indian Hole on the Sky. Caught my first solo bank fishing steelhead at 16 on the Sauk. Between then and when it closed in 2007 I logged no less than 60 days a spring season up there. I towed the driftboat to high school for christ sake and left straight from school to the river for afternoon floats. It's part of my blood and makes me sad that my son won't get the opportunities I did.
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Yeah, well us South Sound Old-Timers have a right to be even more bitter. Puyallup, Green, and Nisqually went from three of the best to closed semi-permanently/permanently a long time ago. I'm still not over the whole situation going the direction it has and I'm not sure I ever will be.
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I’ve thought of posting a poll on the forum if hunting or fishing has tanked more in the last 15 years. Used to fish the skagit and others all the time but no more.
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Yeah, the whole situation is a sour taste. With all the snow last week, I couldn't believe not being on a river. Normally, snow in W WA in Jan/Feb, you would have to pry a steelheader off the river.
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In 2000 there were 100s of thousands of chum on the skagit. It was so much fun. This year maybe < 10K.
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In 2000 there were 100s of thousands of chum on the skagit. It was so much fun. This year maybe < 10K.
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I knew 7mm would throw down in this thread. My 1st, and only, wild steelhead to date in this state came on the north fork of the stilly on a hand tied red head woolly bugger. My own build rod. Amazing fish that graced me with a moment in the net.
This days are gone sadly....
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Yea. Deer Creek summer runs on the Stilly were hot.
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It hurts caught my first on the stilly at the lime plant . The sky, Skagit. Sauk, pilchuck river n Creek. Now I won't fish cause the runs are in such poor shape. Damn sorry I ever released any and I was doing it way before we ever had to. Hurts so bad loved being on the river and
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In 2000 there were 100s of thousands of chum on the skagit. It was so much fun. This year maybe < 10K.
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What many people don't realize is how this run, this one fish, affects everything else in the river. The Chums were prolific in not just the Skagit, but all the PS basin rivers. When I was in high school (not that long ago) I could put the driftboat in at Ben Howard on the Sky at daylight, and take out and Tualco at dark. Arms beat and battered because it was an endless stream of chums on plugs all day. You could literally hook as many as you wanted to. The Skagit and Stilly were the same way. There were silvers like crazy, and steelhead returns were reasonable and somewhat stable. I could float the upper Skagit and catch 100 rainbows and Dolly Vardon behind spawning chums without even thinking about it.
At about the same time, in the early 2000's a market for Chum roe opened up as Sushi became mainstream. Suddenly huge piles of rotting chum carcasses were being found up and down our rivers. Hens were stripped of eggs, and bucks were simply discarded. The prize? Roe to be sold to the Japanese and domestic sushi market. It literally took less than 10 years and natives along with non-native commercial seiners have all but wiped out these runs. Hell the Skagits had to open a CHUM HATCHERY! On a river that less than 10 years prior had 100's of thousands of these fish spawning in it naturally??? WTF?
The truly sad part is the system wide repercussions. Those fish don't spawn in the river anymore, so the Dolly's and rainbows don't get the eggs and flesh from dead salmon. Their carcasses don't rot on the bottom and along the banks of the river anymore, so the bug life that sustains salmon fry, resident rainbows/Dolly's, and steelhead smolt is decreasing every year. The smolt outmigration in late spring early summer is dismal, and the predators that rely on them like mergansers, cormorants, seals, and other predatory fish are taking a much higher percentage of the run than before.
By specifically targeting that one salmon to the brink of collapse in our local rivers, it's had a ripple effect throughout the whole river ecosystem, crashing all the other species that depended on in. Why do you think Pink runs have been so dismal the last few runs? Because about 8 years ago Chum runs weren't large enough to sustain the roe market so they moved on to the next biggest source, Pinks! Seen the sein boats outside Mukilteo and Everett scooping up 10's of thousands at a time? These fish are the backbone of our ecosystem and every other species in the river depends on them successfully spawning in mass. It's all connected guys. Couple terminal net fisheries with piss poor ocean conditions and we are being set up for catastrophe.
WTF
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So what's the rationalization for hatchery closures given the poor returns? If it's genetic diversity why not get eggs from the same species from different areas and include them? Should be opening more hatcheries, not closing ones we have.
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So what's the rationalization for hatchery closures given the poor returns? If it's genetic diversity why not get eggs from the same species from different areas and include them? Should be opening more hatcheries, not closing ones we have.
No one at WDFW will admit that they've been using the same strain of fish for 60+ years and thats why we see declining returns coupled with reduced size. They'll blame it on everything else. Oregon has successfully implemented broodstock programs on many of it's rivers with amazing results. We used to have them on some PS rivers as well as the coast, same deal. Environmental groups and wild fish groups are constantly suing the department to reduce or eliminate hatchery programs because they don't want hatchery fish interbreeding with the wild fish native to the system, despite the fact that those fish have been mingling for decades, and it's shown that most hatchery fish have less than 1% chance of successfully spawning.
That's the long answer Taco, the short answer is the same as most problems in our society. Politics.
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Liberals ruin everything :chuckle: :'(
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Lets just say it sucks.
Caught my first steelhead on the Toutle in 1973.
I wont even get into how good it use to be on ALL the rivers in this state.
This weekend I pulled the jet boat out of the barn and towed it to a launch to start the motors.
With any luck the rivers will drop and I will find a fish or two.
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In 2000 there were 100s of thousands of chum on the skagit. It was so much fun. This year maybe < 10K.
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What many people don't realize is how this run, this one fish, affects everything else in the river. The Chums were prolific in not just the Skagit, but all the PS basin rivers. When I was in high school (not that long ago) I could put the driftboat in at Ben Howard on the Sky at daylight, and take out and Tualco at dark. Arms beat and battered because it was an endless stream of chums on plugs all day. You could literally hook as many as you wanted to. The Skagit and Stilly were the same way. There were silvers like crazy, and steelhead returns were reasonable and somewhat stable. I could float the upper Skagit and catch 100 rainbows and Dolly Vardon behind spawning chums without even thinking about it.
At about the same time, in the early 2000's a market for Chum roe opened up as Sushi became mainstream. Suddenly huge piles of rotting chum carcasses were being found up and down our rivers. Hens were stripped of eggs, and bucks were simply discarded. The prize? Roe to be sold to the Japanese and domestic sushi market. It literally took less than 10 years and natives along with non-native commercial seiners have all but wiped out these runs. Hell the Skagits had to open a CHUM HATCHERY! On a river that less than 10 years prior had 100's of thousands of these fish spawning in it naturally??? WTF?
The truly sad part is the system wide repercussions. Those fish don't spawn in the river anymore, so the Dolly's and rainbows don't get the eggs and flesh from dead salmon. Their carcasses don't rot on the bottom and along the banks of the river anymore, so the bug life that sustains salmon fry, resident rainbows/Dolly's, and steelhead smolt is decreasing every year. The smolt outmigration in late spring early summer is dismal, and the predators that rely on them like mergansers, cormorants, seals, and other predatory fish are taking a much higher percentage of the run than before.
By specifically targeting that one salmon to the brink of collapse in our local rivers, it's had a ripple effect throughout the whole river ecosystem, crashing all the other species that depended on in. Why do you think Pink runs have been so dismal the last few runs? Because about 8 years ago Chum runs weren't large enough to sustain the roe market so they moved on to the next biggest source, Pinks! Seen the sein boats outside Mukilteo and Everett scooping up 10's of thousands at a time? These fish are the backbone of our ecosystem and every other species in the river depends on them successfully spawning in mass. It's all connected guys. Couple terminal net fisheries with piss poor ocean conditions and we are being set up for catastrophe.
WTF
This may very well be the best post I've seen that simplifies and answers the question.. These fish also contributed greatly to river bank forage with the increase nitrogen surplus that made cover and erosion control natural habitat as well. The sheer mass return numbers of Chum is what supported this. River fishing in this state is close to done.
As stated above, I think what has happened to our fisheries far out weighs the problems of wild game. That is a sad statement
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In 2000 there were 100s of thousands of chum on the skagit. It was so much fun. This year maybe < 10K.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200120/cf856d5907f22af65acb062885059f0f.jpg)
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What many people don't realize is how this run, this one fish, affects everything else in the river. The Chums were prolific in not just the Skagit, but all the PS basin rivers. When I was in high school (not that long ago) I could put the driftboat in at Ben Howard on the Sky at daylight, and take out and Tualco at dark. Arms beat and battered because it was an endless stream of chums on plugs all day. You could literally hook as many as you wanted to. The Skagit and Stilly were the same way. There were silvers like crazy, and steelhead returns were reasonable and somewhat stable. I could float the upper Skagit and catch 100 rainbows and Dolly Vardon behind spawning chums without even thinking about it.
At about the same time, in the early 2000's a market for Chum roe opened up as Sushi became mainstream. Suddenly huge piles of rotting chum carcasses were being found up and down our rivers. Hens were stripped of eggs, and bucks were simply discarded. The prize? Roe to be sold to the Japanese and domestic sushi market. It literally took less than 10 years and natives along with non-native commercial seiners have all but wiped out these runs. Hell the Skagits had to open a CHUM HATCHERY! On a river that less than 10 years prior had 100's of thousands of these fish spawning in it naturally??? WTF?
The truly sad part is the system wide repercussions. Those fish don't spawn in the river anymore, so the Dolly's and rainbows don't get the eggs and flesh from dead salmon. Their carcasses don't rot on the bottom and along the banks of the river anymore, so the bug life that sustains salmon fry, resident rainbows/Dolly's, and steelhead smolt is decreasing every year. The smolt outmigration in late spring early summer is dismal, and the predators that rely on them like mergansers, cormorants, seals, and other predatory fish are taking a much higher percentage of the run than before.
By specifically targeting that one salmon to the brink of collapse in our local rivers, it's had a ripple effect throughout the whole river ecosystem, crashing all the other species that depended on in. Why do you think Pink runs have been so dismal the last few runs? Because about 8 years ago Chum runs weren't large enough to sustain the roe market so they moved on to the next biggest source, Pinks! Seen the sein boats outside Mukilteo and Everett scooping up 10's of thousands at a time? These fish are the backbone of our ecosystem and every other species in the river depends on them successfully spawning in mass. It's all connected guys. Couple terminal net fisheries with piss poor ocean conditions and we are being set up for catastrophe.
WTF
This may very well be the best post I've seen that simplifies and answers the question.. These fish also contributed greatly to river bank forage with the increase nitrogen surplus that made cover and erosion control natural habitat as well. The sheer mass return numbers of Chum is what supported this. River fishing in this state is close to done.
As stated above, I think what has happened to our fisheries far out weighs the problems of wild game. That is a sad statement
Caveman, your comment on shoreline forage and brush is spot on. One of my favorite things to do when I was a little kid floating the Sky with my dad was leap out at the top an island and he would pick me up at the bottom. The bars with all the willows and other brush on them were always loaded with corkies, spin-n-glows, plugs, and an occasional goose nest to keep things interesting! :yike: The last few years I found myself wondering why all the bars in those sections of the river were just bare gravel. Most of them had been in place for many years yet there was virtually no plant growth on them. Your statement makes a lot of sense.
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It's also likely land-use based. Rivers are flood-prone, scoured, channelized, rip-rapped (is that a word?).
As for steelheading, stick a fork in it. I missed the good old days but even starting in the early 2000s, there isn't much left from even that late. I've quit targeting wild fish for catch and release because I can't even justify that much impact anymore. Who wants to be the guy that kills the last one?
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Should be a separate good old days steelhead success thread
Boy some of the things outdoors I liked doing sure has tanked in the last 10 years
Elk
Deer
Salmon
Steelhead
Halibut
It’s sad what’s happened
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That's exactly why my son now holds a Fender Rarities Strat instead of an 1141 these days.
At least it will have a purpose.
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Man I miss the 80's
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/ff374/triggerhappy12/1/Rockin%20Westport%2082'.JPG) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/triggerhappy12/p/b0c9200b-9ce0-4e5b-b41f-4e1562f2a7c6)
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Both my kids were potty trained in a jet sled.
How could our fish managers screw things up sooo perfectly????
Pathetic!!!!!!!
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ff374/triggerhappy12/3dfad7a8-c2ce-45d8-bb3a-d93c207313c7_zpspy6zahrz.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/triggerhappy12/p/39e9e8fe-2b31-40a9-876a-b028c59a5e7c)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ff374/triggerhappy12/.highres/50b7e1c3-c8f1-423e-8039-e0a808712b70_zps1122d5ee.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/triggerhappy12/p/0f5579ee-4746-49fd-9ad4-2e31de6c3ed3)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ff374/triggerhappy12/.highres/crying-indian_zpsf76fb370.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/triggerhappy12/p/59e288b4-8ae3-432a-9677-ba220fe177a9)
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A good read is One Man's Steelhead Shangri LA :tup:
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To many pink salmon and whales eating up all the food base. Too many people wanting to participate. Preserve them for posterity, like bald eagles, if you want. Sadly, the good old days are long gone.
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Uhhhhh I dont think to many pink salmon are the problem.
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Uhhhhh I dont think to many pink salmon are the problem.
There's a theory that the hatcheries from Alaska, Russia, South Korea and Japan are releasing close to 5 billion pinks a year. They all seem to converge in the same general feeding grounds as all the other Pacific Salmon and out compete for the food. The result is the other salmon are reduced in size and numbers, which lowers the productivity of rivers here. Steelhead and rainbow trout would be negatively affected by increasingly sterile rivers.
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Considering the biomass of anadromous fish in the north Pacific is a fraction of what it was historically, I cannot imagine that there is any serious competition for food out there amongst salmon species. Maybe in extreme warm water years but even then I think it would be a stretch.
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Uhhhhh I dont think to many pink salmon are the problem.
There's a theory that the hatcheries from Alaska, Russia, South Korea and Japan are releasing close to 5 billion pinks a year. They all seem to converge in the same general feeding grounds as all the other Pacific Salmon and out compete for the food. The result is the other salmon are reduced in size and numbers, which lowers the productivity of rivers here. Steelhead and rainbow trout would be negatively affected by increasingly sterile rivers.
I read something similar.
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Well I've could be wrong, it's happened before. Just seems highly unlikely to me.
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Considering the biomass of anadromous fish in the north Pacific is a fraction of what it was historically, I cannot imagine that there is any serious competition for food out there amongst salmon species. Maybe in extreme warm water years but even then I think it would be a stretch.
There may be a fraction of the anadromous fish (I don’t know) but there’s a fraction of the food also. Especially in warm water years where zooplankton production can be reduced by over 90%. There absolutely is competition for food, or to put it another way, food shortages.
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I have it from good authorities that there is an over abundance of whales too. Whales that eat herring, krill, etc. :(
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Here’s an interesting article to maybe refute the overall biomass claim. Lotsa pinks out there...
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https://www.adn.com/business-economy/2019/04/17/pink-salmon-expected-to-drive-alaska-commercial-salmon-harvest-up-this-season-forecast-says/
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Your mileage may vary...
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@Skillet thoughts on this? I have no data to support my assumptions but we're talking about an ecosystem that really hasn't changed that much over millennia. The only part of it that is targeted is the anadromous fish. Whales have only recently recovered from historic lows caused by excessive whale hunting. 500, 600, 700 years ago there was huge numbers of whales and salmon feeding in these zones. You are right that warm water years cause zooplankton numbers to drop. Sometimes precipitously, but that has also been happening for millenia.
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I think the Gulf of Alaska food web has changed significantly since the Blob in 2015. Herring have been relatively scarce the last few years, but are coming back. However, they're much smaller now for their age than they were in 2014. Massive seabird dieoffs around the GOA in recent years point to food shortages. I don't think baleen wales have much of an overall effect on the food web, but they can sure make a dent in a localized biomass of forage. Ask any hatchery manager that's released smolts into the salt in the last 5 years. Whales are smart, big, and obvious - so some folks like to focus on them as a villain.
I also think any impact on the food web has as much to do with hatchery chum as hatchery pinks. AK hatchery production of chum has increased several thousand percent since 2014. Chums may not eat herring as much as other salmon, but they do eat what herring eat.
Basically, though, I don't think the amount of hatchery fish we're putting out is necessarily wrong, or bad. We're just putting them out at a time when the overall food web in the GOA is recovering from a significant body blow and has a different profile than it did a short 5 years ago. It may take another 5 years to come back to"normal," or it may be that we have to accept the status quo as our new normal. I'm sure this cycle had happened a lot over the ages, but it's what we're dealing with right now so it seems more dramatic than a blob 100 years ago. Humans have a penchant for the dramatic. As an example - how many more forum posts are there about the Corona virus today than there were 100 years ago about the Spanish flu? :chuckle:
In summary, I do think it is different out here than it was a few years ago, but I don't think it is all nearly as bad as some people like to think it is.
:twocents:
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Way to take the middle road. :chuckle: I'll accept that ocean conditions are poor, and that my previous statement about no lack of food was wrong. Clearly, 5 years of warm ocean conditions have made available food for young anadromous fish and herring more difficult to come by. Hatchery pinks and chums play a roll in that. I still don't think that's the cause of the decline in Puget Sound steelhead runs.
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Sounds like I need to give up eating sushi or steelhead fishing.
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Sounds like I need to give up eating sushi or steelhead fishing.
Well? Which will it be?
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I'm an engineer which is about as far from a biologist as you can get, so here is my uninformed opinion.
1. There is no management or recovery plan which stems from a lack of knowledge about salmon and steelhead in general. We really don't know more than we do and there is no real push for the research that would lead to the knowledge about how to develop a plan. Humans likely know more about Monarch butterflies than we do about salmon which is crazy considering it is an important renewable food source.
2. My thought is that the most likely scenario is death by a thousand cuts rather than one or two culprits. Dams, breeding grounds, overfishing, birds, pinnipeds, warm water, lack of food, competition with other fish, probably a dozen other things.
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Way to take the middle road. :chuckle: I'll accept that ocean conditions are poor, and that my previous statement about no lack of food was wrong. Clearly, 5 years of warm ocean conditions have made available food for young anadromous fish and herring more difficult to come by. Hatchery pinks and chums play a roll in that. I still don't think that's the cause of the decline in Puget Sound steelhead runs.
Admittedly, I know less about steelhead than of the five Pacific salmon species, and about pinks least of those five. The study I shared with you did show that steelhead roam the farthest when out to sea, and trended the most southernly. So it is likely they don't interact with the feeding hatchery salmon as much see much and may have escaped many of the issues of the more northeasterly GOA foodweb disruption I'm blathering on about.
One thing I can tell you is I promise that I'm not participating in a steelhead intercept fishery as a troller! I wish we did bycatch a few more, I love to eat them.
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LOL.
I'm hungry for king crab.
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Sounds like I need to give up eating sushi or steelhead fishing.
let me know when you want to sell your boat
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Which one?
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Your thorbuilt.
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Update to my original post. As of today, 2/6 the adult steelhead return to the Puget Sound rivers, Nooksack, Stilly, Sky, and Snoqualmie is 255 fish from a plant of 486,767 or .052%
How about the North Fork Stilly? A plant of 136,270 that returned a whopping 24 fish. That's .000176 or .0176%
I don't think any of these rivers met their egg take numbers.. Portions of these rivers have reopened for hatchery steelhead retention, not because they now have enough broodstock, but because "hatchery broodstock collection has ended for the season"
There was essentially no hatchery winter steelhead season in these rivers this year...
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Bring back the KISW shirt, blast Rush's Working Man to the West from our coast, the fish will come.
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There was has essentially been no hatchery winter steelhead season in these many rivers this year for many years...
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Bring back the KISW shirt, blast Rush's Working Man to the West from our coast, the fish will come.
THIS!!!!!!!!!
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Bring back the KISW shirt, blast Rush's Working Man to the West from our coast, the fish will come.
THIS!!!!!!!!!
I was trying to figure out if Tower records or loss of the kingdome may have contributed. Maybe add some Def Leppard to the mix.
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I remember one day around 83' I caught 5 steelhead in the Deschutes river near Tumwater.
AND
There was defiantly loud music involved.
Where have all the good times gone???
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Bring back the KISW shirt, blast Rush's Working Man to the West from our coast, the fish will come.
THIS!!!!!!!!!
I was trying to figure out if Tower records or loss of the kingdome may have contributed. Maybe add some Def Leppard to the mix.
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I was pulling plugs on the Skykomish listening to the Kingdome implosion on the radio. I remember the day well. We managed a few nice fish that day. Blue Pirate #35 Hotshot was the plug of the day.
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Update to my original post. As of today, 2/6 the adult steelhead return to the Puget Sound rivers, Nooksack, Stilly, Sky, and Snoqualmie is 255 fish from a plant of 486,767 or .052%
How about the North Fork Stilly? A plant of 136,270 that returned a whopping 24 fish. That's .000176 or .0176%
I don't think any of these rivers met their egg take numbers.. Portions of these rivers have reopened for hatchery steelhead retention, not because they now have enough broodstock, but because "hatchery broodstock collection has ended for the season"
There was essentially no hatchery winter steelhead season in these rivers this year...
It’s still early. The last 2 years I’ve seen chrome bright fish coming in the Green as late as April and May. Hoping for the best.
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Hell, Kennedy Creek an Skookum Creek use to have steelhead.
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Update to my original post. As of today, 2/6 the adult steelhead return to the Puget Sound rivers, Nooksack, Stilly, Sky, and Snoqualmie is 255 fish from a plant of 486,767 or .052%
How about the North Fork Stilly? A plant of 136,270 that returned a whopping 24 fish. That's .000176 or .0176%
I don't think any of these rivers met their egg take numbers.. Portions of these rivers have reopened for hatchery steelhead retention, not because they now have enough broodstock, but because "hatchery broodstock collection has ended for the season"
There was essentially no hatchery winter steelhead season in these rivers this year...
It’s still early. The last 2 years I’ve seen chrome bright fish coming in the Green as late as April and May. Hoping for the best.
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April and May is definitely prime time for chrome wild fish in PS rivers. They aren't open though. That's the point.
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Talking about hatchery steelhead..
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Talking about hatchery steelhead..
+1, and dams are a non factor.
Why is it that coastal Indian hatcheries get plenty of fish back every year? Do coastal Indian hatchery fish migrate to areas that are less susceptible to predation, or are their programs simply better?
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Talking about hatchery steelhead..
+1, and dams are a non factor.
Why is it that coastal Indian hatcheries get plenty of fish back every year? Do coastal Indian hatchery fish migrate to areas that are less susceptible to predation, or are their programs simply better?
It's a fact that the tribes hatcheries are awesome! Anybody that's been up to the top point of the Oly pen has witnessed Top Notch hatchery practices which are there for production of fish. With out it there are no fish because it all has been over harvested.
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Talking about hatchery steelhead..
+1, and dams are a non factor.
Why is it that coastal Indian hatcheries get plenty of fish back every year? Do coastal Indian hatchery fish migrate to areas that are less susceptible to predation, or are their programs simply better?
It's a fact that the tribes hatcheries are awesome! Anybody that's been up to the top point of the Oly pen has witnessed Top Notch hatchery practices which are there for production of fish. With out it there are no fish because it all has been over harvested.
How can there be overharvest of Puget Sound steelhead and not coastal, unless the coastal fish are hiding in a different spot while growing? :dunno:
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Nets.
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I remember back to the late 80's when there were steelhead dumped in the ditches of the Green R around Auburn for what reason is probably still unknown?
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Nets.
Again, how are coastal fish avoiding the “predators”/nets and the PS fish are not?
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Coastal Tribal hatcheries get "more" fish back because they 1] Empty into the coast, and therefore have higher survival than Puget Sound streams
2] Are federally funded (by taxpayers] 3] Have the largest smolt release programs on the westside, with the exception of the Cowlitz 4] Arent subject to "hatchery reform" 5] Arent subject to Endangered Species Act limitations.
The Bogachiel hatchery gets back fish at as good or as high a return rate as any tribal program. If they weren't subject to the same hatchery reform regulations and could selectively breed locally adapted broodstock and release them at the same quantities as tribal programs, you'd see a dramatic increase in the both the quality and quantity of adult returns.
The Sooes [Tribal) releases 165,000 smolts on average a year, which is slightly more than the Bogey/Calawah. And the fishery was totally closed this year to tribal and recreational fishing due to bad returns. Last time I looked the Bogey had returned 1106 steelhead this season, the highest return on the coast. Both facilities utilize "chambers" stock, for a more apples to apples comparison. Both are subject to intensive tribal fisheries-
Cook Creek on the Quinault releases a "Chambers" derivative, at a higher annual number than Bogey. It sucked this year as well.
The Salmon releases a local (Quinault) stock that is selectively bred for large size. While return rates seem better, they also plant a lot more into that system, usually 200,000 to 225,000.
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Nets.
Again, how are coastal fish avoiding the “predators”/nets and the PS fish are not?
My simple thoughts are that coastal fish can sneak up there favorite streams without detection from as much predators as inner pugatroplis steelheads. The Pugatroplis rivers have suffered from many issues for many decades. This thought coming from a young boy who caught his first of many steelheads from the Green which at one point was in the top 10 in the state.
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Coastal Tribal hatcheries get "more" fish back because they 1] Empty into the coast, and therefore have higher survival than Puget Sound streams
2] Are federally funded (by taxpayers] 3] Have the largest smolt release programs on the westside, with the exception of the Cowlitz 4] Arent subject to "hatchery reform" 5] Arent subject to Endangered Species Act limitations.
The Bogachiel hatchery gets back fish at as good or as high a return rate as any tribal program. If they weren't subject to the same hatchery reform regulations and could selectively breed locally adapted broodstock and release them at the same quantities as tribal programs, you'd see a dramatic increase in the both the quality and quantity of adult returns.
The Sooes [Tribal) releases 165,000 smolts on average a year, which is slightly more than the Bogey/Calawah. And the fishery was totally closed this year to tribal and recreational fishing due to bad returns. Last time I looked the Bogey had returned 1106 steelhead this season, the highest return on the coast. Both facilities utilize "chambers" stock, for a more apples to apples comparison. Both are subject to intensive tribal fisheries-
Cook Creek on the Quinault releases a "Chambers" derivative, at a higher annual number than Bogey. It sucked this year as well.
The Salmon releases a local (Quinault) stock that is selectively bred for large size. While return rates seem better, they also plant a lot more into that system, usually 200,000 to 225,000.
Boy Howdy that's what I was looking up! Thank you! :yeah:
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Coastal Tribal hatcheries get "more" fish back because they 1] Empty into the coast, and therefore have higher survival than Puget Sound streams
Ok, so are coastal fish and PS fish maturing in different areas once they hit the salt?...doubtful that they are that different.
So if they both mature in similar areas, the difference is the areas of the PS before they reach those maturing grounds, and same areas when they return. How many “nets” are there in that migration route, that the coastal fish never have to deal with?
Is there that much steelhead netting going on in the inland waters?
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There is extremely limited tribal netting targeting steelhead nowadays in Puget Sound Rivers. There are simply so few fish coming back either it isn't worth it for them or they are choosing not to. There are a few exceptions of course....the Skagit on years there is a forecasted harvestable surplus, and a few limited C and S fisheries in the S rivers, the Nooksack, etc. Most tribes are no longer fishing steelhead.
There is no legal non-tribal netting targeting steelhead. Im sure a few get captured in salmon fisheries as bycatch (ie seine fisheries, etc) but its miniscule.
Puget Sound problems have to do with predation by pinnipeds, avian mortality, and a lack of food during early entry into the sound/ocean. Telemetry studies show less than 20% (sometimes less than 10%) even make it out of the Strait of Juan de Fuca, after being released from PS rivers.
When Puget Sound hatcheries release 486,767 steelhead smolts (for this years 2-salt return) and to date trap around 255 adults, with a virtually shut down recreational fishery, high water, and almost no tribal netting, spread out over 5 different hatchery programs, you could say "Houston, we have a problem".
And as some other posters have noted, it aint just steelhead. Chum returns last year are among the worst, and the worst, in several of the major Puget Sound systems.
You can add sockeye to the list, and pinks in most, with the exception of the Puyallup/Green. Puget Sound is seriously hurting.
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Puget Sound problems have to do with predation by pinnipeds, avian mortality, and a lack of food during early entry into the sound/ocean. Telemetry studies show less than 20% (sometimes less than 10%) even make it out of the Strait of Juan de Fuca, after being released from PS rivers.
You can add sockeye to the list, and pinks in most, with the exception of the Puyallup/Green. Puget Sound is seriously hurting.
Bingo!!!
This is what I was getting at. The issue is within the PS itself, pinnipeds being the top issue IMO. :tup:
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BigCutty3, thank you for commenting on this thread..
Fishing in the spring for wild fish on the PS rivers has been gone for a long time (aside from the Sauk/Skagit last year). Thought I could at least continue fishing on what's left of the hatchery program, but with returns continuing to decline to where we are, I'm afraid it's really over.
Houston, we have a problem..
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BigCutty3, thank you for commenting on this thread..
Fishing in the spring for wild fish on the PS rivers has been gone for a long time (aside from the Sauk/Skagit last year). Thought I could at least continue fishing on what's left of the hatchery program, but with returns continuing to decline to where we are, I'm afraid it's really over.
Houston, we have a problem..
+1
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If it’s the PS itself, why are PS hatchery coho and chinook doing well? 2019 wasn’t good, but 2018 was. The hatchery steelhead returns are unreal bad. Clearly something here going on. Just don’t understand why it doesn’t effect coho and chinook the same.
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Steelhead are the largest smolts that are leaving the systems, and likely are the preferred target for the pinnipeds due to that. Coho are the second largest, about half the size of steelhead smolts or slightly smaller. Hatchery Chinook are even smaller and go out on average at around 80 fish to the pound.
Steelhead tend to run in the surface column as well, and it is believed that makes them more prone to predation. A lot of steehead smolts disappear around the Tacoma Narrows, Hood Canal Bridge, and in Admiralty inlet, all known choke points where things get funneled into and are vulnerable.
Hatchery coho and Chinook release numbers are also much more substantial than steelhead, in the tens of millions in PS. They also tend to run deeper than steelhead.
Pink and chum fry are the smallest smolts and leave the river soon after absorbing their yolk sac, about an inch long. They are dependent on good plankton abundance for early productivity, and are not subject to pinniped predation due to their small size. Cutts, Dollies, and any other fish bigger than them will snack them like popcorn though.
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If it’s the PS itself, why are PS hatchery coho and chinook doing well? 2019 wasn’t good, but 2018 was. The hatchery steelhead returns are unreal bad. Clearly something here going on. Just don’t understand why it doesn’t effect coho and chinook the same.
Edit: just saw the above post, and some of this is a bit redundant...
I think we'd need to define "doing well" in regard to salmon since numbers are on a general downward trend for PS as well, but there are perhaps some unknown factors as well as some known: for example
the number of salmon released absolutely dwarfs steelhead released, and steelhead are typically raised to a much larger size before release.
For anyone interested, there are comprehensive studies on the causes:
https://www.eopugetsound.org/magazine/young-salmon (https://www.eopugetsound.org/magazine/young-salmon)
and
https://marinesurvivalproject.com/wp-content/uploads/PS-Steelhead-Marine-Survival-Research-Summary-Report-2013-2017-13April20....pdf (https://marinesurvivalproject.com/wp-content/uploads/PS-Steelhead-Marine-Survival-Research-Summary-Report-2013-2017-13April20....pdf)
and
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282898401_Multi-population_analysis_of_Puget_Sound_steelhead_survival_and_migration_behavior (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282898401_Multi-population_analysis_of_Puget_Sound_steelhead_survival_and_migration_behavior)
Now if we could just develop the will as a society to do something about it that would matter...
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@ BigCutty thanks for posting the info you did. There is alot involved. :tup:
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If it’s the PS itself, why are PS hatchery coho and chinook doing well? 2019 wasn’t good, but 2018 was. The hatchery steelhead returns are unreal bad. Clearly something here going on. Just don’t understand why it doesn’t effect coho and chinook the same.
I wouldn't say they are doing well, last several years the seasons were short, limited or flat out closed. It's been a while since I would say the numbers and size of fish were good. The trend is clearly down for PS, Columbia and coastal for a couple of decades and we know what it was like the last few years, bad news.
(https://pnwbestlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Screen-Shot-2019-03-11-at-7.53.56-PM-768x505.png)
All of the fish have different times when they breed, return to the ocean, return from the ocean, what they eat and where they migrate to not to mention commercial, sport and tribal pressure. It's no surprise that some will luck out and have better conditions and feed than others. Big events like the blob hit everything while more local stuff like drought, flood and predators can hit one species much more than others.
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For sure doing “well” is all relative. Size and weight in coho and chinook is way down over time, and some years it’s really bad. But numbers are still there. 2018 was an incredible year. 2019 not so much. 2017 was good, 2016 I think was the year they closed coho, only to have a decent return in the end. But relative to steelhead survival, it’s still night and day. BigCutty, thanks for the info, very interesting and informative.