Post by: Joseph wilcox on June 11, 2020, 05:00:09 AM
Post by: CackleBird98 on June 11, 2020, 05:04:04 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 11, 2020, 05:18:27 AM
Post by: zwickeyman on June 11, 2020, 05:21:47 AM
Post by: jrebel on June 11, 2020, 06:08:48 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 11, 2020, 06:14:09 AM
Post by: teanawayslayer on June 11, 2020, 06:20:42 AM
Not to piss anyone off or anything, but I got a bethel rifle tag with 6 pts :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :IBCOOL:good for you. Our system is seriously messed up. I have been really fortunate and have been fairly lucky with drawing tags over the years. This year I drew a bull tag with 13 points. That is the most points I’ve ever had in deer and elk. I’ve drawn Two branched bull tags, 6 cow tags, two quality deer tags, two second deer tags, and two buck tags in the past 10 years. I’m not trying to brag but I’ve been very lucky. Do I think it’s fair? Definitely not. I know a lot of people with a hole bunch of points that are senior citizens and don’t have many years of hunting left. I would gladly give my bull tag to one of them if I could. Something needs to be changed in our current system!!
Post by: Sutherland on June 11, 2020, 06:22:26 AM
Post by: huntnnw on June 11, 2020, 06:27:28 AM
I hear guys saying I have this many points and haven't drawn, then I ask what have you applied for the whole time? and its usually tags that are so hard to draw you may never draw. Then these same guys somehow think a different system fixes it.. the only thing that fixes it is NO points
Post by: sagerat on June 11, 2020, 06:30:55 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 11, 2020, 06:52:06 AM
If we are going to have a point system Ill take ours all day long over other states giving out most their tags to max point holders. You actually have a chance to draw here every year versus slim to none in other states. I couldn't even imagine what the point creep would look like here if we were like Utah system. We have way to many applicants versus tags rewarded.spot on! Ir they are applying as a group for 2 available tags, or half of their 24 points have come from ghost point apps. It's not always as simple as "I've got 24pts and can't draw".
I hear guys saying I have this many points and haven't drawn, then I ask what have you applied for the whole time? and its usually tags that are so hard to draw you may never draw. Then these same guys somehow think a different system fixes it.. the only thing that fixes it is NO points
Post by: Lightning_Rider on June 11, 2020, 07:01:17 AM
Not to piss anyone off or anything, but I got a bethel rifle tag with 6 pts :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :IBCOOL:good for you. Our system is seriously messed up. I have been really fortunate and have been fairly lucky with drawing tags over the years. This year I drew a bull tag with 13 points. That is the most points I’ve ever had in deer and elk. I’ve drawn Two branched bull tags, 6 cow tags, two quality deer tags, two second deer tags, and two buck tags in the past 10 years. I’m not trying to brag but I’ve been very lucky. Do I think it’s fair? Definitely not. I know a lot of people with a hole bunch of points that are senior citizens and don’t have many years of hunting left. I would gladly give my bull tag to one of them if I could. Something needs to be changed in our current system!!
You could go apply for a handicapped permit and designate me as your shooter this year... :hello:
Post by: Magnum_Willys on June 11, 2020, 07:04:40 AM
Post by: The scout on June 11, 2020, 07:12:20 AM
Post by: Wanttohuntmore on June 11, 2020, 07:32:27 AM
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 11, 2020, 07:36:53 AM
Post by: Joseph wilcox on June 12, 2020, 05:45:55 AM
Post by: SeaRun1 on June 12, 2020, 06:12:40 AM
My buddys 84 year old uncle finally drew a Cowichee Bull tag with 24 points. He is pretty stoked
How does this happen when Steve Rinella draws a Blues tag while living in the state for two years?
SR1
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 12, 2020, 06:31:37 AM
WA has a bonus point system which means everyone has some sort of a chance at drawing. Odds are better with 24pts but there is also a chance to draw with only 1pt. Its gambling plain and simple. Some scratch tickets are winners but most are losers.My buddys 84 year old uncle finally drew a Cowichee Bull tag with 24 points. He is pretty stoked
How does this happen when Steve Rinella draws a Blues tag while living in the state for two years?
SR1
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 12, 2020, 07:05:19 AM
Post by: pbg on June 12, 2020, 07:52:00 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 12, 2020, 07:54:37 AM
The point system doesn't work because it is set up like a lottery, how many points you have are not taken in to account when your name is put in the hat so why not just do away with the points and everyone puts in for what they want and then its fair for everyone and no one can complain about having all these points and not getting drawnthe more points you have the more names you have in the hat. :dunno:
Post by: Bigshooter on June 12, 2020, 08:13:28 AM
If we are going to have a point system Ill take ours all day long over other states giving out most their tags to max point holders. You actually have a chance to draw here every year versus slim to none in other states. I couldn't even imagine what the point creep would look like here if we were like Utah system. We have way to many applicants versus tags rewarded.
I hear guys saying I have this many points and haven't drawn, then I ask what have you applied for the whole time? and its usually tags that are so hard to draw you may never draw. Then these same guys somehow think a different system fixes it.. the only thing that fixes it is NO points
:yeah:
There are few that get it, but this guy gets it.
Post by: gee_unit360 on June 12, 2020, 08:20:22 AM
wow don’t post that. You draw something every single year. UnbelievableNot to piss anyone off or anything, but I got a bethel rifle tag with 6 pts :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :IBCOOL:good for you. Our system is seriously messed up. I have been really fortunate and have been fairly lucky with drawing tags over the years. This year I drew a bull tag with 13 points. That is the most points I’ve ever had in deer and elk. I’ve drawn Two branched bull tags, 6 cow tags, two quality deer tags, two second deer tags, and two buck tags in the past 10 years. I’m not trying to brag but I’ve been very lucky. Do I think it’s fair? Definitely not. I know a lot of people with a hole bunch of points that are senior citizens and don’t have many years of hunting left. I would gladly give my bull tag to one of them if I could. Something needs to be changed in our current system!!
Post by: gee_unit360 on June 12, 2020, 08:29:49 AM
Post by: idahohuntr on June 12, 2020, 08:31:36 AM
Agree...well stated. And while I also prefer a no points system, for those with high point totals I think they would be better off advocating for limiting choices. The guys sitting on 25 moose points or whatever would find those points far more valuable if people could only apply for one species or something like that. When WDFW created all these categories and allows everyone to apply for everything, it really de-valued your points...pretty much like a big company issuing a whole bunch of new stock and diluting the current shareholders.If we are going to have a point system Ill take ours all day long over other states giving out most their tags to max point holders. You actually have a chance to draw here every year versus slim to none in other states. I couldn't even imagine what the point creep would look like here if we were like Utah system. We have way to many applicants versus tags rewarded.
I hear guys saying I have this many points and haven't drawn, then I ask what have you applied for the whole time? and its usually tags that are so hard to draw you may never draw. Then these same guys somehow think a different system fixes it.. the only thing that fixes it is NO points
:yeah:
There are few that get it, but this guy gets it.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 12, 2020, 08:40:21 AM
I was a witness.
I saw the point totals for the top 20 names out of the hat. There were 34,049 people in for quality bull, there was an additional 1,584 people that just did ghost points.
There were 464 permits total given out.
# Points used
1 5
2 12
3 16
4 12
4 12
6 15
7 14
8 11
9 11
10 10
10 10
12 12
12 12
14 9
15 12
15 12
17 19
18 6
19 12
20 14
The ties for 4,10,12,15 were groups.
The first person out on the "unselected" list had 14 points. There were a bunch of people in the first 20 unselected that had 6-16 points. There were three that had 23 or more points.
A bunch of those of course had come out of the hat before the last guy on the selected list but their hunt choice was gone already so they ended up on the unselected list.
It's all really a gamble.
More points get your name in the hat more times but you are up against every method of hunting in that first draw. All 34,000 with their multiple applications from there go into the same hat.
You could put in for the colockum rifle rut tag, have your name come out of the hat 15th but if the 14 people before you were archery, muzzleloader or just put in for a different first hunt choice than you then you would technically be the first person out of the hat looking for that permit and would get it.
On the other hand you could be the second guy out of the hat and if the first person drawn had the colockum rut rifle tag as there first choice the tag would be gone and if you didn't have a second choice for a hunt you would be out and on the unselected list.
In theory more points should help. From what I saw in the top 20 max points wasn't the key.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 12, 2020, 08:45:58 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 12, 2020, 08:50:06 AM
Post by: jstone on June 12, 2020, 08:52:31 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 12, 2020, 08:53:54 AM
It’s more agrevating than anything, one year I was the first loser in the bull category. Like rainier said, the highest point holders, don’t draw very often.it's a numbers thing though right? FAR more people in the 10-15 range then there are 20+ so it is more likely that a lower point individual is gonna end up with a tag than a max point individual.
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 12, 2020, 08:58:34 AM
Post by: huntnnw on June 12, 2020, 08:59:48 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 12, 2020, 09:00:07 AM
Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order :chuckle:I think so. For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in. I think they could do the same thing with the draw.
They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw. I said I thought there would be a huge interest. It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple. Explaining it is a little tricky. I offered to help in any way possible. It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 12, 2020, 09:01:49 AM
exactlyIt’s more agrevating than anything, one year I was the first loser in the bull category. Like rainier said, the highest point holders, don’t draw very often.it's a numbers thing though right? FAR more people in the 10-15 range then there are 20+ so it is more likely that a lower point individual is gonna end up with a tag than a max point individual.
Post by: bobcat on June 12, 2020, 09:07:24 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 12, 2020, 09:07:37 AM
agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order :chuckle:I think so. For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in. I think they could do the same thing with the draw.
They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw. I said I thought there would be a huge interest. It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple. Explaining it is a little tricky. I offered to help in any way possible. It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 12, 2020, 09:08:49 AM
You are exactly right Karl, there is so much more to it than having max points. The 10 guys with max points are still up against 1,500 guys with 17 points and 1,600 guys with 16 points and so on. So combined names in the hat the guys in the 10-15 range have more names combined than the max point guys combined.It’s more agrevating than anything, one year I was the first loser in the bull category. Like rainier said, the highest point holders, don’t draw very often.it's a numbers thing though right? FAR more people in the 10-15 range then there are 20+ so it is more likely that a lower point individual is gonna end up with a tag than a max point individual.
I look at it just like the raffle. There are 2,000 people that buy 1-4 eastern elk raffle tickets each, totaling 5,500 tickets sold. There are a few whales that buy 1,500-2,000 tickets each, for 5,500 tickets. The three whales have half of the tickets but the masses have the other half. That means that there is a 50-50 chance a whale or a regular guy wins.
It's all a gamble.
The benefit to the raffle as a half full guy is I get to keep my dream of drawing a great tag alive a little longer.
Post by: dilleytech on June 12, 2020, 09:09:20 AM
My buddys 84 year old uncle finally drew a Cowichee Bull tag with 24 points. He is pretty stoked
How does this happen when Steve Rinella draws a Blues tag while living in the state for two years?
SR1
The tag Steve drew didn’t have too bad of odds as do some other archery quality elk tags. Most guys with 20 points still in disbelief there not getting drawn are putting in really hard to draw rifle tags. Guys need to consider less desirable tags if they want opportunity.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 12, 2020, 09:11:05 AM
For a live feed they would have to block out peoples names of course. But yes if they could show the process so everyone could see it that would be awesome. It would be like the good ole days when you went to olympia and watched some of the draws in person.agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order :chuckle:I think so. For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in. I think they could do the same thing with the draw.
They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw. I said I thought there would be a huge interest. It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple. Explaining it is a little tricky. I offered to help in any way possible. It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 12, 2020, 09:21:59 AM
Would be fun/interesting...Why do they have to block names?For a live feed they would have to block out peoples names of course. But yes if they could show the process so everyone could see it that would be awesome. It would be like the good ole days when you went to olympia and watched some of the draws in person.agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order :chuckle:I think so. For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in. I think they could do the same thing with the draw.
They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw. I said I thought there would be a huge interest. It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple. Explaining it is a little tricky. I offered to help in any way possible. It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 12, 2020, 09:43:10 AM
Because of the world we live in. You could get the names I am sure through a request for information form but they don't want to just broadcast every hunters name and hunt choice for the world to see. I am sure there would be people that don't want the world to know what permit they are putting in for and there are even more people that wouldn't want some whacko radical group to know they are a hunter. I am very selective with who I tell I am a hunter to. There is a huge portion of our population that doesn't support hunting. Just look at the ridicule some get on here when personal information about them gets posted.Would be fun/interesting...Why do they have to block names?For a live feed they would have to block out peoples names of course. But yes if they could show the process so everyone could see it that would be awesome. It would be like the good ole days when you went to olympia and watched some of the draws in person.agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order :chuckle:I think so. For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in. I think they could do the same thing with the draw.
They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw. I said I thought there would be a huge interest. It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple. Explaining it is a little tricky. I offered to help in any way possible. It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.
Post by: gee_unit360 on June 12, 2020, 09:45:14 AM
agree, my speaker wasn’t on during the draw so I couldn’t talk to you guys but if they videod what we saw and posted that or could have a live feed, that would be good.Would be kind of fun (or aggravating!) if they posted the list of names, 1-34,000, so you could see your draw order :chuckle:I think so. For the raffles you can enter your ticket number and see what place you came in. I think they could do the same thing with the draw.
They asked if there would be interest in a "how it works" tutorial for the draw. I said I thought there would be a huge interest. It is a super fair process and actually pretty simple. Explaining it is a little tricky. I offered to help in any way possible. It will take a bunch of work to put together but I think it would be super helpful so that hunters had a better understanding of how it works.
How did you get selected to be a witness?
Post by: gee_unit360 on June 12, 2020, 09:49:13 AM
You have too many points.
I was a witness.
I saw the point totals for the top 20 names out of the hat. There were 34,049 people in for quality bull, there was an additional 1,584 people that just did ghost points.
There were 464 permits total given out.
# Points used
1 5
2 12
3 16
4 12
4 12
6 15
7 14
8 11
9 11
10 10
10 10
12 12
12 12
14 9
15 12
15 12
17 19
18 6
19 12
20 14
The ties for 4,10,12,15 were groups.
The first person out on the "unselected" list had 14 points. There were a bunch of people in the first 20 unselected that had 6-16 points. There were three that had 23 or more points.
A bunch of those of course had come out of the hat before the last guy on the selected list but their hunt choice was gone already so they ended up on the unselected list.
It's all really a gamble.
More points get your name in the hat more times but you are up against every method of hunting in that first draw. All 34,000 with their multiple applications from there go into the same hat.
You could put in for the colockum rifle rut tag, have your name come out of the hat 15th but if the 14 people before you were archery, muzzleloader or just put in for a different first hunt choice than you then you would technically be the first person out of the hat looking for that permit and would get it.
On the other hand you could be the second guy out of the hat and if the first person drawn had the colockum rut rifle tag as there first choice the tag would be gone and if you didn't have a second choice for a hunt you would be out and on the unselected list.
In theory more points should help. From what I saw in the top 20 max points wasn't the key.
How did you get selected to be a witness?
Post by: Rainier10 on June 12, 2020, 10:13:13 AM
That was last year. This year was different with Covid. I called and asked what they were doing and was told that they didn't think they would have witnesses this year. I got a call on June 9th this year around noon asking if I would be available June 10th at 830 am for a Microsoft Teams meeting to do the draw. I said yes. I got an email after that with the meeting invite and one of the recipients of the email had trophyhunt in the address. I sent him a pm and asked if he had any plans at 830 the next day. He sent a "yes LOL" and a "good luck".
The reason for the secrecy about the draw is the servers that results are on. They are set up for a certain amount of traffic. More traffic means you need more expensive servers. Most of the time there is very low traffic on the WDFW site. They pay for a service to handle that traffic. When results come out traffic spikes. The servers can't handle that.
It is just like this site. When this site was small the servers were small, as the site has grown Dale has had to upgrade to handle the increased traffic.
I have been a witness twice and didn't draw anything. Both times that I have been a witness one of the witnesses did actually draw a tag. Last year a guy drew a mountain view quality elk tag and this year a guy drew a skagit bull tag. Apparently that doesn't normally happen but both times I was there it did. So I am lucky for someone, just not me.
I am not sure how it worked for the other witnesses but that is how it worked for me.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 12, 2020, 10:36:10 AM
Post by: slim9300 on June 12, 2020, 01:57:08 PM
This state has far too many people applying for too few tags to ever be ‘fixed.’ It statistically cannot happen. If you want a decent chance to draw a good tag, apply for another state. You have better odds of drawing a far better elk tag in NM your first year, than drawing a ‘decent’ elk tag in this state with 20 points. You know why? NM has WAY more special permit tags available for application, and doesn’t have general season hunting. At least you can hunt every year in this state, but I doubt that will last forever.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Bigshooter on June 12, 2020, 02:09:57 PM
So many people here are making stupid comments about the draw system in WA. If you don’t know your odds prior to applying, how can you properly set your expectations? What if I told you that most of the best elk and deer tags in this state have a roughly 1% (1/100) chance of being drawn with 20 points? Even if the odds were 5%, that’s 1/20 that you would get a tag. That’s terrible! As the total number of tags available go down (let’s say due to predation and an inability to manage ungulate populations by the state), your points actually become less valuable in many cases. With that knowledge, hopefully you would have the common sense to never expect to draw a tag with tiny odds.
This state has far too many people applying for too few tags to ever be ‘fixed.’ It statistically cannot happen. If you want a decent chance to draw a good tag, apply for another state. You have better odds of drawing a far better elk tag in NM your first year, than drawing a ‘decent’ elk tag in this state with 20 points. You know why? NM has WAY more special permit tags available for application, and doesn’t have general season hunting. At least you can hunt every year in this state, but I doubt that will last forever.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Another person that gets it.
Post by: stw on June 12, 2020, 03:00:25 PM
Post by: Stein on June 12, 2020, 04:22:36 PM
From our perspective, there are two sides to the coin. For most people, "fixing" the system means making it easier for THEM to draw a tag, whatever their situation and preference is. As we know, the only way for it to be easier for me to draw is make it harder or impossible for someone else to draw.
In order to increase any odds, you would have to limit the number of people applying and many people prefer to enter many categories vs having to chose one. Thus, it won't likely change, because we have different and competing preferences. The only thing that will change is the cost will go up occasionally and the odds will go down every year unless we get more animals or less hunters. Whatever the scheme, they all involve taking away opportunity which is the only way to increase anyone's odds.
The way I looked at it is that to get those 22 points, it would cost me $286 in application costs (likely more as fees increase over time) plus the base license I normally don't use for a 1% shot at something or spend that money elsewhere where I can pull tags every 2-3 years. I would rather go on a great antelope hunt in MT or WY than have 22 years of NOT SELECTED for elk and they both cost about the same. If you have to buy the base elk license and don't hunt the general, it's a fool's game unless you have the money to play in state and out of state.
Post by: slim9300 on June 12, 2020, 04:33:14 PM
From WDFW's perspective, the system works perfect. They can reduce tags in a unit by 75% and will still get the same revenue, usually even more year over year. It encourages people to apply for more categories more often then a pure random draw and the revenue is based on the players, not the number of tags. It also tends to greatly overestimate anyone's chances because 22 points is a bunch and the human brain works in strange ways sometimes. People with max points think they have great odds, maybe even close to guaranteed when as noted, it might be 1%.Exactly.
From our perspective, there are two sides to the coin. For most people, "fixing" the system means making it easier for THEM to draw a tag, whatever their situation and preference is. As we know, the only way for it to be easier for me to draw is make it harder or impossible for someone else to draw.
In order to increase any odds, you would have to limit the number of people applying and many people prefer to enter many categories vs having to chose one. Thus, it won't likely change, because we have different and competing preferences. The only thing that will change is the cost will go up occasionally and the odds will go down every year unless we get more animals or less hunters. Whatever the scheme, they all involve taking away opportunity which is the only way to increase anyone's odds.
The way I looked at it is that to get those 22 points, it would cost me $286 in application costs (likely more as fees increase over time) plus the base license I normally don't use for a 1% shot at something or spend that money elsewhere where I can pull tags every 2-3 years. I would rather go on a great antelope hunt in MT or WY than have 22 years of NOT SELECTED for elk and they both cost about the same. If you have to buy the base elk license and don't hunt the general, it's a fool's game unless you have the money to play in state and out of state.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: vandeman17 on June 12, 2020, 04:39:39 PM
Post by: Ridgeratt on June 12, 2020, 04:46:04 PM
I have double digit points in multiple categories with my highest being 17 for next year and would gladly give them all up today to go back to a purely random draw with no point system. Give me one deer choice, one elk choice and then one of the 3 OIL species with one choice and I would be happy.
Absolutely but upfront the tag fees and if not drawn keep the application fees. Refund the rest.
Post by: stw on June 12, 2020, 05:53:04 PM
Post by: idaho guy on June 12, 2020, 07:57:13 PM
I have double digit points in multiple categories with my highest being 17 for next year and would gladly give them all up today to go back to a purely random draw with no point system. Give me one deer choice, one elk choice and then one of the 3 OIL species with one choice and I would be happy.
:yeah:
Limiting entry’s to 1 oil tag or 1 deer category and 1 elk category would significantly improve odds and fix a lot of problems. Do it just like Idaho or even go to just 1 choice in only one category guys with high points would actually have decent odds. Once you draw you’re out of that category for 3-4 years. It’s a simple fix but still wouldn’t be great just a lot better.
Post by: Stein on June 12, 2020, 08:37:54 PM
I have double digit points in multiple categories with my highest being 17 for next year and would gladly give them all up today to go back to a purely random draw with no point system. Give me one deer choice, one elk choice and then one of the 3 OIL species with one choice and I would be happy.
:yeah:
Limiting entry’s to 1 oil tag or 1 deer category and 1 elk category would significantly improve odds and fix a lot of problems. Do it just like Idaho or even go to just 1 choice in only one category guys with high points would actually have decent odds. Once you draw you’re out of that category for 3-4 years. It’s a simple fix but still wouldn’t be great just a lot better.
When that is brought up there is typically a chorus of guys who want to be able to apply for everything and are very opposed to having to make that choice.
If I were king, everyone would get one permit application per year. Let hunters decide what is important for them. That said, what seems to be important to more than a few is being able to apply for tons of stuff as opposed to actually being able to draw. Anyone that hunts or fishes must be an optimist at some level I guess.
Post by: dvolmer on June 12, 2020, 10:34:46 PM
From WDFW's perspective, the system works perfect. They can reduce tags in a unit by 75% and will still get the same revenue, usually even more year over year. It encourages people to apply for more categories more often then a pure random draw and the revenue is based on the players, not the number of tags. It also tends to greatly overestimate anyone's chances because 22 points is a bunch and the human brain works in strange ways sometimes. People with max points think they have great odds, maybe even close to guaranteed when as noted, it might be 1%.
From our perspective, there are two sides to the coin. For most people, "fixing" the system means making it easier for THEM to draw a tag, whatever their situation and preference is. As we know, the only way for it to be easier for me to draw is make it harder or impossible for someone else to draw.
In order to increase any odds, you would have to limit the number of people applying and many people prefer to enter many categories vs having to chose one. Thus, it won't likely change, because we have different and competing preferences. The only thing that will change is the cost will go up occasionally and the odds will go down every year unless we get more animals or less hunters. Whatever the scheme, they all involve taking away opportunity which is the only way to increase anyone's odds.
The way I looked at it is that to get those 22 points, it would cost me $286 in application costs (likely more as fees increase over time) plus the base license I normally don't use for a 1% shot at something or spend that money elsewhere where I can pull tags every 2-3 years. I would rather go on a great antelope hunt in MT or WY than have 22 years of NOT SELECTED for elk and they both cost about the same. If you have to buy the base elk license and don't hunt the general, it's a fool's game unless you have the money to play in state and out of state.
Bingo!!!!! Nailed it Stein!!!
Post by: vandeman17 on June 13, 2020, 07:51:57 AM
I have double digit points in multiple categories with my highest being 17 for next year and would gladly give them all up today to go back to a purely random draw with no point system. Give me one deer choice, one elk choice and then one of the 3 OIL species with one choice and I would be happy.
:yeah:
Limiting entry’s to 1 oil tag or 1 deer category and 1 elk category would significantly improve odds and fix a lot of problems. Do it just like Idaho or even go to just 1 choice in only one category guys with high points would actually have decent odds. Once you draw you’re out of that category for 3-4 years. It’s a simple fix but still wouldn’t be great just a lot better.
When that is brought up there is typically a chorus of guys who want to be able to apply for everything and are very opposed to having to make that choice.
If I were king, everyone would get one permit application per year. Let hunters decide what is important for them. That said, what seems to be important to more than a few is being able to apply for tons of stuff as opposed to actually being able to draw. Anyone that hunts or fishes must be an optimist at some level I guess.
That is very true but I also don’t think those optimists really know how crappy their odds actually are by having all those categories. My assumption is that they believe that each additional point gives them much better odds. While it is true that it does give them better odds, when the unit they are applying for starts out with one point odds of like .3% then each additional point really doesn’t do squat.
I think one deer application so it could be buck, doe, second or whatever you choose. Same with elk being bull or cow. Let hunters choose their goals and decide on the odds they want to pursue. For OIL, only allow one species to be applied for and same principle applies for bull, cow, ram, ewe or whatever. If you wanted to go even farther, which I am on the fence about, front the OIL money.
Post by: OltHunter on June 13, 2020, 08:07:28 AM
Post by: bobcat on June 13, 2020, 09:46:34 AM
Did our system used to be 1 app per species with 4 options?
Yes
Post by: Stein on June 13, 2020, 09:56:27 AM
I have double digit points in multiple categories with my highest being 17 for next year and would gladly give them all up today to go back to a purely random draw with no point system. Give me one deer choice, one elk choice and then one of the 3 OIL species with one choice and I would be happy.
:yeah:
Limiting entry’s to 1 oil tag or 1 deer category and 1 elk category would significantly improve odds and fix a lot of problems. Do it just like Idaho or even go to just 1 choice in only one category guys with high points would actually have decent odds. Once you draw you’re out of that category for 3-4 years. It’s a simple fix but still wouldn’t be great just a lot better.
When that is brought up there is typically a chorus of guys who want to be able to apply for everything and are very opposed to having to make that choice.
If I were king, everyone would get one permit application per year. Let hunters decide what is important for them. That said, what seems to be important to more than a few is being able to apply for tons of stuff as opposed to actually being able to draw. Anyone that hunts or fishes must be an optimist at some level I guess.
That is very true but I also don’t think those optimists really know how crappy their odds actually are by having all those categories. My assumption is that they believe that each additional point gives them much better odds. While it is true that it does give them better odds, when the unit they are applying for starts out with one point odds of like .3% then each additional point really doesn’t do squat.
I think one deer application so it could be buck, doe, second or whatever you choose. Same with elk being bull or cow. Let hunters choose their goals and decide on the odds they want to pursue. For OIL, only allow one species to be applied for and same principle applies for bull, cow, ram, ewe or whatever. If you wanted to go even farther, which I am on the fence about, front the OIL money.
Some don't know, some don't care. Check out a casino on any given day and you will find a bunch of people who aren't playing the odds and coming back for more. Guys will complain and then can't wait to enter next year, it's the addictive nature of points systems and gambling in general.
I don't think it will change because there would be an uproar over "losing" out on the ability to use points or apply for multiple species. Like I said, from WDFW's perspective it is a near perfect system.
I don't personally play anymore, so I think it's great because that's other license revenue they don't have to bring in. The only improvement would be to go to a WY system where you can buy even more "special" points and bring in more revenue.
Post by: dilleytech on June 14, 2020, 08:36:20 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 14, 2020, 08:57:44 AM
Post by: ne kid on June 14, 2020, 10:06:11 AM
Post by: HntnFsh on June 15, 2020, 05:43:23 AM
Turn Quality bull & any bull into oil tags.
I doubt that will improve odds much at all. But havent researched to see how many points that would take out of the system.
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 08:23:00 AM
The best 1 is 1 application per species.Take away the possible 800 hunters that were successful at tagging a bull odds go up even more.With hunters saying that getting drawn within 100 years i don't see anything wrong with making quality and bull oil tags.
over 50k applications went into the quality bull draw and over 40k went into the any bull drawing.That's almost 10% over a 10 year period out of the draws. :twocents:
Post by: Rainier10 on June 15, 2020, 08:33:13 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 08:36:25 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 15, 2020, 08:40:12 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 15, 2020, 08:42:03 AM
Post by: Ironhead on June 15, 2020, 08:47:10 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 08:50:08 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 08:52:35 AM
I addition to those applications that actually applied for hunts there were people that just put in for ghost points. 1584 quality and 2043 any bull ghost points only.True,Very true.This makes the oil option that more appealing.The draw odds are rising. :chuckle:
Post by: vandeman17 on June 15, 2020, 08:55:39 AM
How about 10 % of Quality Bull tags in a given hunt # go to top point holders the rest go into a random draw for anyone then if successful in the draw there will be a 5 year waiting period before you can enter the draw again.
I don't think that would do much good as a decent amount of the quality units already have so few tags. Even one that has 10 tags, that means 1 tag given to highest point holder
Post by: Stein on June 15, 2020, 09:07:17 AM
WDFW would likely not see any additional revenue, so I would guess they would oppose it as well because they would be hearing all the griping and not getting anything in return.
You can't change the system so everyone wins and WDFW would get more revenue, so I'll stand by my prediction that nothing will change.
Post by: dilleytech on June 15, 2020, 09:21:35 AM
At all?It would take out every person that tags a bull elk out of the draw.Over 800 tags for quality and any bull(2019).Every idea in this thread improves the odds to draw a tag.
The best 1 is 1 application per species.Take away the possible 800 hunters that were successful at tagging a bull odds go up even more.With hunters saying that getting drawn within 100 years i don't see anything wrong with making quality and bull oil tags.
over 50k applications went into the quality bull draw and over 40k went into the any bull drawing.That's almost 10% over a 10 year period out of the draws. :twocents:
Marking it a OIL tag would decrease greatly the number of bull tags you could get over your lifetime. I’m 31 I have been drawn 3 times and didn’t Putin for about 7 years.
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 09:27:18 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 15, 2020, 09:31:26 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 09:43:52 AM
What do you think the bull to cow ratio is in Yakima?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 15, 2020, 09:49:26 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 09:54:13 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 09:57:37 AM
Or we could just increase permits back up to where they should be in the first place :dunno:If you're right Karl where do you feel the quota should be?Back to where it was in say 2016 or even more?
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 15, 2020, 10:02:10 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 10:05:04 AM
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 15, 2020, 10:11:19 AM
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 10:13:47 AM
I sure wish I had an answer to that. Its 2020 and we are still counting animals like its 1975. Its frustrating. I'm sure it's a budget thing but sometimes I wonder. I'd volunteer a considerable amount if time if they would implement a volunteer program for winter counts. We all have gps, cameras,optics, even drones, etc, etc. Let us help :twocents:I would volunteer to count as well. :tup:
Post by: B4noon on June 15, 2020, 10:22:34 AM
I sure wish I had an answer to that. Its 2020 and we are still counting animals like its 1975. Its frustrating. I'm sure it's a budget thing but sometimes I wonder. I'd volunteer a considerable amount if time if they would implement a volunteer program for winter counts. We all have gps, cameras,optics, even drones, etc, etc. Let us help :twocents:It’s not a budget issue it’s a priority issue and depending upon what region your in biologists have been allowed to change adapt their job to their personal interests so in Yakima elk fall into the arm chair quarterback approach with little effort however golden eagles, gray squirrels, and bumble bees have taken the front row believe it or not they are ahead of carnivores and they also come with outside funding which creates more indirect revenue which is how they obtain funding for administration positions until that is changes ungulates although they generate revenue for the state through license sales and have huge economic impacts to the communities they take a back row same the way the game department always throws trout hatcheries on the table when budget cuts have to be made even though they generate huge amounts of money endangered species come with outside funding with less direction in how it is spent wdfw is even looking into reducing or eliminating feed stations
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 15, 2020, 10:31:31 AM
Post by: dilleytech on June 15, 2020, 11:11:29 AM
Exactly my point. :yeah:
Huh? Basically I was drawn 3 times in 10 years and you think OIL would be better? Of course there were a lot more tags issued back then..
Post by: Stein on June 15, 2020, 11:24:28 AM
Exactly my point. :yeah:
Huh? Basically I was drawn 3 times in 10 years and you think OIL would be better? Of course there were a lot more tags issued back then..
More tags and fewer applicants. It's not of much value comparing 10 years ago with the next 10 years. Many tag numbers are down 75-90% and applicants are up in just 4 years. The unit I used to apply for went from 134 tags in 2016 to 10 last year - down 92.5%. You now need 18 points for a 10% chance when only four years ago you had the same chance with 4 points.
Mathematically, quality elk tags are OIL.
Post by: dilleytech on June 15, 2020, 01:11:45 PM
Exactly my point. :yeah:
Huh? Basically I was drawn 3 times in 10 years and you think OIL would be better? Of course there were a lot more tags issued back then..
More tags and fewer applicants. It's not of much value comparing 10 years ago with the next 10 years. Many tag numbers are down 75-90% and applicants are up in just 4 years. The unit I used to apply for went from 134 tags in 2016 to 10 last year - down 92.5%. You now need 18 points for a 10% chance when only four years ago you had the same chance with 4 points.
Mathematically, quality elk tags are OIL.
True but I think having gotten 3 tags in my life is better then 1. And if I would have kept applying I most likely would have gotten more draws.
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 06:26:23 PM
Nothing from anybody huh?If i posted this exactly word for word i would have been attacked by several.But see nothing nothing from anyone who has been on here complaining daily about the draws and having 22 points and all that has a problem with the system enough to voice an opinion on this statement? :bash: Maybe we should keep the system as it is,maybe some (a lot actually)will never draw and have 50 points :chuckle: and this guy can still get a tag every other year or more. :tup:Exactly my point. :yeah:
Huh? Basically I was drawn 3 times in 10 years and you think OIL would be better? Of course there were a lot more tags issued back then..
More tags and fewer applicants. It's not of much value comparing 10 years ago with the next 10 years. Many tag numbers are down 75-90% and applicants are up in just 4 years. The unit I used to apply for went from 134 tags in 2016 to 10 last year - down 92.5%. You now need 18 points for a 10% chance when only four years ago you had the same chance with 4 points.
Mathematically, quality elk tags are OIL.
True but I think having gotten 3 tags in my life is better then 1. And if I would have kept applying I most likely would have gotten more draws.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 15, 2020, 06:44:50 PM
Tag numbers are a joke but overall the system is pretty fair. People just don't understand it, don't know how to navigate it, or refuse to adapt methods to increase drawing success :twocents:
Post by: Oh Mah on June 15, 2020, 06:55:56 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 15, 2020, 07:22:26 PM
Elk on the other hand, there are some good units and some not so good units based on trophy potential, weapon restrictions and season dates all become a factor. There is no way I would ever expect someone who tags a bull in Toutle to have to forgo the opportunity to hunt the blues.
Post by: dilleytech on June 16, 2020, 09:22:23 AM
Big difference in fillets app strategy vs others though. I've known him for a long time and the archery tags he was drawing weren't that hard to get, especially back before the splitting of categories. I'd say most guys with max points or close to are guys going for top tier rifle tags and or have some ghost point apps in their history as well. I've also had 3 bull permits but I've also never missed an application season, never put in for points only, and I apply for higher odds units and weapons.
Tag numbers are a joke but overall the system is pretty fair. People just don't understand it, don't know how to navigate it, or refuse to adapt methods to increase drawing success :twocents:
Well said. Tag numbers are a joke. But when the odds are what they are you either find some middle ground and give your self more opportunity or you put in for the hardest to get rifle tags and complain when you have 25 points 😏. Look at the odds of harvest. If you want your best odds first off don’t hunt rifle lol.
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 16, 2020, 11:11:05 AM
exactly. Personal responsibility. I apply for 1 single quality deer unit every year. It's a hard draw and odds are low but it's the unit I want to draw and have accepted the fact that I may never draw it and die with 80 deer points. That's my personal choice. I could have been applying for lesser tags all these years and had a high likelyhood of drawing.Big difference in fillets app strategy vs others though. I've known him for a long time and the archery tags he was drawing weren't that hard to get, especially back before the splitting of categories. I'd say most guys with max points or close to are guys going for top tier rifle tags and or have some ghost point apps in their history as well. I've also had 3 bull permits but I've also never missed an application season, never put in for points only, and I apply for higher odds units and weapons.
Tag numbers are a joke but overall the system is pretty fair. People just don't understand it, don't know how to navigate it, or refuse to adapt methods to increase drawing success :twocents:
Well said. Tag numbers are a joke. But when the odds are what they are you either find some middle ground and give your self more opportunity or you put in for the hardest to get rifle tags and complain when you have 25 points 😏. Look at the odds of harvest. If you want your best odds first off don’t hunt rifle lol.
Obviously theres guys out there that just have bad luck but I'd bet there is a pattern among most max point deer and elk guys
Post by: Twispriver on June 16, 2020, 08:21:59 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 17, 2020, 10:25:53 AM
I drew a bull tag the year before they split the categories so I didn't go into the quality draw with a points bank so I'm behind a lot of guys counting points. I'm pretty sure I would have a better chance at drawing if I at least picked a second choice but I only apply for the unit I normally hunt and with the weapons choice with the fewest permits. I'd rather not draw and hunt spikes with my group than burn my points on a permit in a unit I've never set foot in before. I understand and accept that I handicap my own odds and I don't complain when I don't draw. If/when I do pull the permit though I'll be applying the next year for sure.I drew deer and elk tags that year,
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 17, 2020, 10:57:59 AM
I drew elk that year also. I've drawn twice since :chuckle: :sry:I drew a bull tag the year before they split the categories so I didn't go into the quality draw with a points bank so I'm behind a lot of guys counting points. I'm pretty sure I would have a better chance at drawing if I at least picked a second choice but I only apply for the unit I normally hunt and with the weapons choice with the fewest permits. I'd rather not draw and hunt spikes with my group than burn my points on a permit in a unit I've never set foot in before. I understand and accept that I handicap my own odds and I don't complain when I don't draw. If/when I do pull the permit though I'll be applying the next year for sure.I drew deer and elk tags that year,
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 17, 2020, 12:52:26 PM
used all that luck on elk tags and never gonna draw your quality deer tag :chuckle:I drew elk that year also. I've drawn twice since :chuckle: :sry:I drew a bull tag the year before they split the categories so I didn't go into the quality draw with a points bank so I'm behind a lot of guys counting points. I'm pretty sure I would have a better chance at drawing if I at least picked a second choice but I only apply for the unit I normally hunt and with the weapons choice with the fewest permits. I'd rather not draw and hunt spikes with my group than burn my points on a permit in a unit I've never set foot in before. I understand and accept that I handicap my own odds and I don't complain when I don't draw. If/when I do pull the permit though I'll be applying the next year for sure.I drew deer and elk tags that year,
Post by: Karl Blanchard on June 17, 2020, 12:58:32 PM
Post by: GameHunter1959 on June 18, 2020, 03:16:24 AM
Doe permits about every other year
2x Second Deer permits
4x Cow permits- been applying since the late 1980s. Never missed a year or put in for ghost points. Drew my 4th for this upcoming season.
1x Quality Bull permit in 2017
1x Any Deer permit 2007
I’m guessing most the Hunt Wa Forum has seen similar draw odds/success or lack there of. At this point I’ve accepted the way it is, and just apply each year and hope for the best.
Post by: Onewhohikes on June 18, 2020, 05:28:54 AM
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 18, 2020, 07:29:15 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on June 18, 2020, 07:50:45 AM
I think permit numbers will bounce back in a few years for most elk units.Why are you optimistic?
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Post by: D-Rock425 on June 18, 2020, 08:07:53 AM
I saw it happen back in 2010 in the bumping and Nile archery season went spike only cow permits dropped and in just a few short years later archery season was back to antlerless and spike otc and wdfw was giving out 430 cow permits in the two units to modern and muzzy hunters (2016 numbers)I think permit numbers will bounce back in a few years for most elk units.Why are you optimistic?
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Post by: High Climber on June 18, 2020, 08:18:17 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2020, 08:44:14 AM
I think permit numbers will bounce back in a few years for most elk units.:yeah: I had 49 cows, two spikes and 49 calves on my place last weekend. If the predators don't get them that is great news for the herds assuming other areas have similar cow to calf numbers this year. It has been a great spring early summer, lots of rain showers once every week or two keeping vegetation green and plentiful. Wildlife is resilient and I think we are going to see a boom in numbers, if the predators don't get them all and the young ones can make it through the first few months.
Post by: 7mmfan on June 18, 2020, 08:51:28 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on June 18, 2020, 09:21:46 AM
The increase happened because of active vocal groups who were willing to call them on their BS. The WSB was particularly active. I haven’t seen any groups currently willing to push them back the other way.I saw it happen back in 2010 in the bumping and Nile archery season went spike only cow permits dropped and in just a few short years later archery season was back to antlerless and spike otc and wdfw was giving out 430 cow permits in the two units to modern and muzzy hunters (2016 numbers)I think permit numbers will bounce back in a few years for most elk units.Why are you optimistic?
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Post by: huntingaddiction on June 18, 2020, 10:56:40 AM
Post by: Hockman on June 18, 2020, 11:38:24 AM
To me, the issue with our point system is it should be designed such that the longer you stay in the system, and more points you build, the better your odds drawing should be. Unfortunately that is not the case.
I was only able to find data for 2019 so I picked goats because the number of hunts is small and I had to enter the data in a spreadsheet manually. The attached pdf should have a trend of applicants per point level (Note: In 2019 there were an additional 3,862 applicants for points only that are not reflected in the data) and an assumed scenario for North Lake Chelan where the real 2019 data is advanced one year. It assumes the same people (2 applicants who drew are removed at their level) apply and assumes the same number of number applicants.
The data shows that each point level the odds drop as time advances.
Post by: huntingaddiction on June 18, 2020, 01:01:39 PM
Post by: High Climber on June 18, 2020, 01:07:47 PM
22? That seems crazy to me. Are you putting in for rifle tags?I’ve never put in for rifle tags, mostly apply for archery but the last two years went muzzy for slightly better odds in the particular units I was applying. 22 points = crappy odds still
Post by: Stein on June 18, 2020, 01:55:41 PM
If someone made this point, I missed it.
To me, the issue with our point system is it should be designed such that the longer you stay in the system, and more points you build, the better your odds drawing should be. Unfortunately that is not the case.
I was only able to find data for 2019 so I picked goats because the number of hunts is small and I had to enter the data in a spreadsheet manually. The attached pdf should have a trend of applicants per point level (Note: In 2019 there were an additional 3,862 applicants for points only that are not reflected in the data) and an assumed scenario for North Lake Chelan where the real 2019 data is advanced one year. It assumes the same people (2 applicants who drew are removed at their level) apply and assumes the same number of number applicants.
The data shows that each point level the odds drop as time advances.
It's true, in general your odds of drawing the hard tags tend to go down year to year but your odds at X points in any given draw are better than if you had <X points. It's two ways of looking at odds and both are accurate.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2020, 02:42:58 PM
If someone made this point, I missed it.Exactly. One guy that had 10 points/100 names in the hat drops out of the running. Everyone else gets a point and that increases the number of names in the hat. The guy that had 20 points/400 names in the hat the following year has 21 points/441 names in the hat. It only takes three guys still in the drawing with 21 points to drown out the points removed by the 10 point guy that was drawn.
To me, the issue with our point system is it should be designed such that the longer you stay in the system, and more points you build, the better your odds drawing should be. Unfortunately that is not the case.
I was only able to find data for 2019 so I picked goats because the number of hunts is small and I had to enter the data in a spreadsheet manually. The attached pdf should have a trend of applicants per point level (Note: In 2019 there were an additional 3,862 applicants for points only that are not reflected in the data) and an assumed scenario for North Lake Chelan where the real 2019 data is advanced one year. It assumes the same people (2 applicants who drew are removed at their level) apply and assumes the same number of number applicants.
The data shows that each point level the odds drop as time advances.
It is worse for elk, there were 34,000 people in the draw. Only 464 got drawn and they go back into the system the next year. They only have one point but they are still in. The other 33,546 people are still in the hat with one more point added to their old total. The number is astronomical even if the average of points is 5/25 names in the hat goes to 6/36 names in the hat. 33,546 x 11 =380,006 more names in the hat.
People think the system is set up to give you a better chance which technically it does. But if you look at it closer what it really is doing is giving you a better chance than a guy with fewer points than you but you are both dealing with ever decreasing odds. Nobody really gets ahead.
Post by: Stein on June 18, 2020, 02:48:36 PM
Post by: D-Rock425 on June 18, 2020, 02:56:58 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2020, 03:05:58 PM
I think the best way to do it is to zero the points and everyone gets one name in the hat. It really is the most fair. You either get lucky or you don't.
Post by: B4noon on June 18, 2020, 03:29:37 PM
Post by: Stein on June 18, 2020, 04:49:20 PM
Would giving a percentage of tags out in preference drawing help at all? Lets just say 25% of tags go in a preference draw for any hunt that has more than 4 tags? The remaining 75% would stay in current system. I don't know enough about preference vs bonus points to know if this,would help at all.There are only two variables that matter, tags and hunters. Changing anything else is just tilting the table in this guy’s direction or that guy.
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Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 18, 2020, 07:01:06 PM
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
Post by: slim9300 on June 18, 2020, 09:38:20 PM
:yeah:This is dead on.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
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Post by: Oh Mah on June 19, 2020, 12:18:58 AM
:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
Post by: huntnphool on June 19, 2020, 01:07:45 AM
:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Post by: GameHunter1959 on June 19, 2020, 02:02:17 AM
:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Welcome to the Internet!
Post by: Threewolves on June 19, 2020, 05:42:29 AM
:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
[/quote
5 years seems like not that big of deal in your 20s and 30s but in your 60s and 70s it is a big deal.
Also, did you put in for MT Antelope?
Post by: Oh Mah on June 19, 2020, 08:26:30 AM
5 years is the same for a 20 year old as it is for an 80 year old,If you got your tag booh hooo on you if you have to be done or wait five years for the other guy that is complaining to get his.
Post by: slim9300 on June 19, 2020, 09:54:41 AM
The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
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Post by: blackveltbowhunter on June 19, 2020, 10:44:23 AM
While it's my opinion on the WHY, and I could be way off base. Evidence points me to this conclusion so I'm not just spitballing here.
It's my belief that many departments across the West have effectively given themselves an "out" with point systems across the board. Rather than focusing on improving game numbers or quality and reaping the rewards in increased revenue through improved participation in the draw systems, they " give" you a point. An illusion that your odds are increasing. When in reality all incentive to improve the system is gone. In addition to cash revenue, no one can bow out because they have invested their most precious commodity, time.
Post by: Oh Mah on June 19, 2020, 12:16:52 PM
Could you please explain how fish and game would lose a great deal of money with this idea?The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1)The successful applicants can still purchase the app. but for points only for 5 years unless the other way where they are done done.
2)What difference would it make?I mean so many on here say they will be out of the point system all together if they ever get drawn anyway.So just arguing to argue.
3)New hunters join in every year adding to the draw system why not just be happy you were able to draw a quality or a any bull tag and let the rest have a chance.
Post by: Stein on June 19, 2020, 12:35:07 PM
Anytime there are more max point holders than tags, there is going to be a problem. Make more tags or force less applicants or leave it alone.
Post by: slim9300 on June 19, 2020, 12:37:10 PM
Could you please explain how fish and game would lose a great deal of money with this idea?The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
1)The successful applicants can still purchase the app. but for points only for 5 years unless the other way where they are done done.
2)What difference would it make?I mean so many on here say they will be out of the point system all together if they ever get drawn anyway.So just arguing to argue.
3)New hunters join in every year adding to the draw system why not just be happy you were able to draw a quality or a any bull tag and let the rest have a chance.
Your idea would have a tiny impact on draw odds overall, and would only really increase the odds on low quality hunts like cow/doe tags. The mid-level and premium hunts would be basically unaffected.
Just look at the total applicant pool versus available tags. 5 years worth of successful applicants isn’t a significant number to sway the total pool.
At the same time I think it’s a fair idea.
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Post by: slim9300 on June 19, 2020, 12:37:59 PM
If everyone can buy points, it won't change any draw odds. Actually, it will make them SLIGHTLY better for 5 years and then every year after that, there will be new entrants jumping back in with 5-6 points every year dragging the odds right back down. If you compare the number of quality tags issued to the number of applicants, you will see that it's an insignificant percentage, so any waiting periods won't really move the needle. It's not the few guys that drew that are the issue, it's the horde that didn't draw that is the problem.
Anytime there are more max point holders than tags, there is going to be a problem. Make more tags or force less applicants or leave it alone.
This. Beat me to it.
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Post by: ShaneTyTrey on June 19, 2020, 01:02:10 PM
The one thing that could be changed without effecting money at all, is each applicant is given one choice for each application only. That still increases odds and effects nothing on the side of WDFW. Not the best, but a small tweak that would make some difference. Another option would be to do away with buck/quality and bull/quality and just have one permit and double the price. Likely most everyone still plays, the odds go up significantly and the state doesn't see much of a hit in revenue. I am guessing anyone paying $13/application would pay $26/application if the odds were significantly increased. I have no way to prove that, but strongly believe it.The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Oh Mah on June 19, 2020, 01:28:17 PM
I agree,i have brought all of this stuff up before also in this forum. :tup:The one thing that could be changed without effecting money at all, is each applicant is given one choice for each application only. That still increases odds and effects nothing on the side of WDFW. Not the best, but a small tweak that would make some difference. Another option would be to do away with buck/quality and bull/quality and just have one permit and double the price. Likely most everyone still plays, the odds go up significantly and the state doesn't see much of a hit in revenue. I am guessing anyone paying $13/application would pay $26/application if the odds were significantly increased. I have no way to prove that, but strongly believe it.The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As far as i'm concerned others will disagree but oh well.
1)Everyone keeps saying limit applicants or increase tags.I have brought up ways to limit applicants whether it be forever or for some period of time.
2)Charge more then less will get in or stay in the draws.
3)Make it 1 choice per species for apps.
4)Double the number of tags and break the areas down by splitting them in half.If you get drawn and you don't see the game you wanted because too many hunters then you got what some are asking for(more tags)if there was reason for more tags then you got what you asked for.
The bottom line is this,Everybody that got drawn in the past few years that said if they ever got drawn they would be out of it completely are doing the other hunters a great dis service,In my opinion if you say your gonna do something then do it. If not then quit saying it while not drawing and whining about the system.
Post by: slim9300 on June 19, 2020, 01:29:03 PM
Two fair points but I think the majority would not allow the second option to happen. I like your thinking.The one thing that could be changed without effecting money at all, is each applicant is given one choice for each application only. That still increases odds and effects nothing on the side of WDFW. Not the best, but a small tweak that would make some difference. Another option would be to do away with buck/quality and bull/quality and just have one permit and double the price. Likely most everyone still plays, the odds go up significantly and the state doesn't see much of a hit in revenue. I am guessing anyone paying $13/application would pay $26/application if the odds were significantly increased. I have no way to prove that, but strongly believe it.The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: huntnphool on June 19, 2020, 02:28:13 PM
The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Doesn’t sound like you read them, I addressed that.
Post by: slim9300 on June 19, 2020, 02:43:44 PM
I looked back through this thread on my phone before posting that, and didn’t see a post from you. 🤷🏼♂️The F&G will never listen to you or anyone for that matter when it comes to the draw system, it’s now too entrenched. You know that. It would cost them a great deal of money regardless of the change they put in place (assuming it was done to increase the odds).:yeah:Exactly right.Thats why i keep saying either O.I.L or they get taken out of the draw for 5 years after successfully drawing.It will do 2 major things.
The only way to increase OVERALL odds is A) increase tag numbers or B) limit hunter applications.
A doesn't happen because it requires work/effort on the part of game managers/commissions
B doesn't happen because the majority of proposed options would cut into budgets funding these same folks.
1)It will take those hunters out of the draw for 5 years.
2)It wont effect the state economically hardly at all.
I’ve proposed a couple different systems that would work, seems a lot of you simply insist on complaining rather than looking for actual solutions. ;)
Doesn’t sound like you read them, I addressed that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk