Post by: blindluck on June 16, 2021, 08:40:01 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 16, 2021, 08:47:07 PM
Post by: rtspring on June 16, 2021, 08:48:06 PM
Yes, they can shoot bulls year around.
Post by: blindluck on June 16, 2021, 09:00:40 PM
Post by: Jellymon on June 16, 2021, 09:14:11 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 17, 2021, 10:24:19 AM
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
Post by: jackelope on June 17, 2021, 10:31:13 AM
Just a warning before it happens. It's not our first rodeo.
:chuckle:
Post by: Mtnwalker on June 17, 2021, 10:43:38 AM
I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
OTC harvest not doing much damage to the elk numbers these days.. but I digress :chuckle:
Post by: NRA4LIFE on June 17, 2021, 10:45:51 AM
Post by: hunter399 on June 17, 2021, 10:50:53 AM
I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)I'm just gonna throw this out there as far as permits vs native hunting regulations.
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
To wait 10-20 years to draw a moose tag,or bull tag and not hunt it ,is crazy talk.
There is a pretty big difference in regulated hunting,harvest reporting-vs-year round season with very liberal bag limits.
Yes I do agree it there right according to the treaty.
But I didn't see anything in the treaty about casinos and other stuff that can be regulated in a way to encourage natives to comply with,harvest reports,bag limits,and a little more conservative seasons.
Natives would still regulate themselves just like they do now.
If that casino operating liences was on the line,tribal members would be Alot less likely to look the other way.
And in turn enforce a more conservative game policy.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 17, 2021, 10:55:57 AM
A couple of honest questions here, do the tribal hunters have to report their kills? And if so, are those numbers made public?Some tribes do and some don't. I have seen the document from a group of tribes that do report, I think it was a report on like 20 something tribes.
Post by: hunter399 on June 17, 2021, 11:01:41 AM
There are ways of encouraging natives to take a little more conservative path. And still be within the laws of the treaty.
They would still have all the rights they have now,exempt from wildlife laws all that and self govern by there own people.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 17, 2021, 11:11:36 AM
The OP talks about elk in the back of trucks that are visible. Why are they visible? Because it is their right to harvest them and take them home. The people in operation cody didn't have those rights. They didn't get caulk because they had an elk in the back of their truck in the drive thru at McDonald's. They did it so nobody would see them but they still did it.
People are upset at the tribal harvest because they can see it. I assure you there is just as much overharvest by non natives that you don't see.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 17, 2021, 11:13:36 AM
I guess what I'm really trying to say in my above statement.I agree 100% and think it would be great if they/a very select few would take a little less. It would improve things for all user groups IMO but I totally understand them not wanting to give an inch.
There are ways of encouraging natives to take a little more conservative path. And still be within the laws of the treaty.
They would still have all the rights they have now,exempt from wildlife laws all that and self govern by there own people.
Post by: johnbmyersii on June 17, 2021, 11:16:29 AM
I always try to come back to "operation cody" and how many animals are getting taken out of season by non natives and that is just what one game warden wrote about. How many others were taken that nobody knows about.
The OP talks about elk in the back of trucks that are visible. Why are they visible? Because it is their right to harvest them and take them home. The people in operation cody didn't have those rights. They didn't get caulk because they had an elk in the back of their truck in the drive thru at McDonald's. They did it so nobody would see them but they still did it.
People are upset at the tribal harvest because they can see it. I assure you there is just as much overharvest by non natives that you don't see.
I dont completely disagree but one single non-native doesnt get to go shoot 3 bull elk and 2 mule deer bucks on the firing center in one week. The times I've been on the firing center during the winter I look at the sign-out sheet and the amount of animals getting taken out of there every week by the natives is insane and there is a log book at the check-in station you can look at and see the evidence first hand
Post by: hunter399 on June 17, 2021, 11:18:22 AM
I always try to come back to "operation cody" and how many animals are getting taken out of season by non natives and that is just what one game warden wrote about. How many others were taken that nobody knows about.I Agree with your above statement 100%
The OP talks about elk in the back of trucks that are visible. Why are they visible? Because it is their right to harvest them and take them home. The people in operation cody didn't have those rights. They didn't get caulk because they had an elk in the back of their truck in the drive thru at McDonald's. They did it so nobody would see them but they still did it.
People are upset at the tribal harvest because they can see it. I assure you there is just as much overharvest by non natives that you don't see.
I don't really care how many Elk a year any native harvest.
I guess my end goal would be harvest reporting,enforcement of bag limits,and a little more tribes working with WDFW to come up with management plans that can work for the tribe and the greater good of deer and elk herds.
Of course any enforcement of anything would be done by there own people.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 17, 2021, 12:14:30 PM
The WHITE man gave them those rights....
Yes, they can shoot bulls year around.
"They" didn't give "them" anything.
It was contractually agreed upon in a treaty between two nations. That treaty is enforced and honored (on the USA end of things) by our Constitution; the supreme law of the land.
To the OPs point, it is what it is. The Colockum and Yakima herds are primary targets for local natives. If you don't want to share that with them then you just need to hunt elsewhere.
Heck, if someone told me I could shoot an extra elk every year, I wouldn't hesitate. Our elk is usually gone by May.
Post by: HillHound on June 17, 2021, 12:37:16 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 17, 2021, 12:53:42 PM
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 17, 2021, 01:03:46 PM
So you guys that post support for the natives (wrongs)rights, and say you don’t care, what is your opinion on ZERO limits, how about selling meat for jerky (illegal even by tribal law), and single members killing dozens of bulls each year to supply that business? Does your support still make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?? Most of us are aware that it’s just a few bad apples on both sides, but c’mon man!
I'm totally with you Jerry. If they're violating the treaty or if they're violating their own take laws, some sort of consequence should be in order. I don't expect that I'd be able to convince the tribes to enforce their laws better by trashing talking on the internet though.
My standing as an American citizen supercedes (marginally) my status as a hunter. The US Constitution and all it supports are the fundamental doctrine of my allegiance to my nation. I've literally taken an oath to put my life on the line to defend that document. That document says that the treaties (even if they weren't written very well) are law. So that's it. They're law.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 17, 2021, 01:26:54 PM
I'm right there with you man.I always try to come back to "operation cody" and how many animals are getting taken out of season by non natives and that is just what one game warden wrote about. How many others were taken that nobody knows about.I Agree with your above statement 100%
The OP talks about elk in the back of trucks that are visible. Why are they visible? Because it is their right to harvest them and take them home. The people in operation cody didn't have those rights. They didn't get caulk because they had an elk in the back of their truck in the drive thru at McDonald's. They did it so nobody would see them but they still did it.
People are upset at the tribal harvest because they can see it. I assure you there is just as much overharvest by non natives that you don't see.
I don't really care how many Elk a year any native harvest.
I guess my end goal would be harvest reporting,enforcement of bag limits,and a little more tribes working with WDFW to come up with management plans that can work for the tribe and the greater good of deer and elk herds.
Of course any enforcement of anything would be done by there own people.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on June 17, 2021, 01:35:59 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2021, 09:32:38 AM
So you guys that post support for the natives (wrongs)rights, and say you don’t care, what is your opinion on ZERO limits, how about selling meat for jerky (illegal even by tribal law), and single members killing dozens of bulls each year to supply that business? Does your support still make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?? Most of us are aware that it’s just a few bad apples on both sides, but c’mon man!
I am assuming you are speaking to me here on some of above.
I do support their rights. They had a ton taken away and were given very little in return. Our forefathers screwed them and we should at least honor what they were granted in exchange for everything they gave up. Renegotiate if you want but don't just tear it up and say that doesn't apply anymore.
I never said I don't care and I am not sure anyone who has replied says they don't care about what is seen as abuse of those rights.
Edit: I found the post where hunter399 says he doesn't care how many they harvest followed by he wants reporting of harvest, enforcement of bag limits and for them to work with WDFW to manage the herds.
I am not happy about zero limits for some but I am not sure there is anything I can do about that. It is kind of like being pissed off the sun comes up every day in the east. I can wish it would come up in the west but it just isn't going to happen so I can be pissed off about it or move on to what I can control.
Using the elk to sell jerky is frustrating. I don't know that it is illegal by tribal law but if it is then it is. Speeding is illegal and I do it all the time. Not wearing a seatbelt is illegal and I do it all the time. I would be willing to be that you do or have done something illegal before and paid absolutely consequences for your illegal behavior. It happens, we all do it on some level.
One member killing dozens of bulls is frustrating. Ever hear of the "kill em all boys"? They shot a ton of deer, elk, bears, bobcats, all kinds of wildlife out of season and using illegal hunting methods greatly impacting the population and taking away opportunity from legal hunters. I know you have read operation cody, all of those cases were non natives taking game outside normal seasons and way above legal limits. It happens on both sides.
"Warm and fuzzy"? I don't believe anyone in this thread said they feel "warm and fuzzy" about what is going on with the native harvest or the non native harvest.
Post by: Stein on June 18, 2021, 09:42:29 AM
I would also like to see them work with WDFW to manage the elk population. I would also see WDFW at least appear to give a care about elk as well.
Post by: OutHouse on June 18, 2021, 01:23:49 PM
So you guys that post support for the natives (wrongs)rights, and say you don’t care, what is your opinion on ZERO limits, how about selling meat for jerky (illegal even by tribal law), and single members killing dozens of bulls each year to supply that business? Does your support still make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?? Most of us are aware that it’s just a few bad apples on both sides, but c’mon man!
I am assuming you are speaking to me here on some of above.
I do support their rights. They had a ton taken away and were given very little in return. Our forefathers screwed them and we should at least honor what they were granted in exchange for everything they gave up. Renegotiate if you want but don't just tear it up and say that doesn't apply anymore.
I never said I don't care and I am not sure anyone who has replied says they don't care about what is seen as abuse of those rights.
I am not happy about zero limits for some but I am not sure there is anything I can do about that. It is kind of like being pissed off the sun comes up every day in the east. I can wish it would come up in the west but it just isn't going to happen so I can be pissed off about it or move on to what I can control.
Using the elk to sell jerky is frustrating. I don't know that it is illegal by tribal law but if it is then it is. Speeding is illegal and I do it all the time. Not wearing a seatbelt is illegal and I do it all the time. I would be willing to be that you do or have done something illegal before and paid absolutely consequences for your illegal behavior. It happens, we all do it on some level.
One member killing dozens of bulls is frustrating. Ever hear of the "kill em all boys"? They shot a ton of deer, elk, bears, bobcats, all kinds of wildlife out of season and using illegal hunting methods greatly impacting the population and taking away opportunity from legal hunters. I know you have read operation cody, all of those cases were non natives taking game outside normal seasons and way above legal limits. It happens on both sides.
"Warm and fuzzy"? I don't believe anyone in this thread said they feel "warm and fuzzy" about what is going on with the native harvest or the non native harvest.
That pretty much sums up my feelings on this as well. I don't know anyone in the "I don't care at all" category. The actual poaching by other groups is absolutely rampant, and is probably the major source of the problem. I reviewed files in a case where a guy here in central WA was killing dozens of deer per week and selling the bodies for $60 a piece. All of this was caught on a camera an informant was wearing. Unfortunately, the poaching was not the subject of that case, and the authorities had bigger fish to fry. Never heard about that investigation even starting as an independent investigation or going anywhere for that matter.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2021, 01:40:57 PM
There is not a doubt in my mind that tons of deer especially but elk also get whacked by workers at illegal grow operations on DNR and NF land. I am sure that just as many get whacked by farmers who are sick of crop damage from deer and elk.
People get enraged by the few bad apples in the native community but that is only because you can see it. You can see it because it is their right.
The reason nobody is pissed about poaching is because it is illegal so people don't do it in broad daylight for all to see. They don't post it on YouTube videos of how to break an elk down in minutes that they have harvested outside of traditional seasons.
Post by: OutHouse on June 18, 2021, 01:45:56 PM
Interesting story Outhouse.
There is not a doubt in my mind that tons of deer especially but elk also get whacked by workers at illegal grow operations on DNR and NF land. I am sure that just as many get whacked by farmers who are sick of crop damage from deer and elk.
People get enraged by the few bad apples in the native community but that is only because you can see it. You can see it because it is their right.
The reason nobody is pissed about poaching is because it is illegal so people don't do it in broad daylight for all to see. They don't post it on YouTube videos of how to break an elk down in minutes that they have harvested outside of traditional seasons.
Good points. What's visible is what's gonna take the brunt of the anger that's for sure.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2021, 01:47:43 PM
Working with the WDFW is the best chance our wildlife has but look at this forum and how much hate and distrust so many of the members here have the WDFW. So many think they don't have our interests or the wildlife's interest in mind. Do you think natives are going to trust and want to work with WDFW/government? Come on, our government already screwed them with the treaty.
It seems to me the best option for our herds is to control what we can and enforce what we can. Stop non native poaching and overharvest.
Post by: Dan-o on June 18, 2021, 03:07:00 PM
So you guys that post support for the natives (wrongs)rights, and say you don’t care, what is your opinion on ZERO limits, how about selling meat for jerky (illegal even by tribal law), and single members killing dozens of bulls each year to supply that business? Does your support still make you feel warm and fuzzy inside?? Most of us are aware that it’s just a few bad apples on both sides, but c’mon man!
I am assuming you are speaking to me here on some of above.
I do support their rights. They had a ton taken away and were given very little in return. Our forefathers screwed them and we should at least honor what they were granted in exchange for everything they gave up. Renegotiate if you want but don't just tear it up and say that doesn't apply anymore.
I never said I don't care and I am not sure anyone who has replied says they don't care about what is seen as abuse of those rights.
Edit: I found the post where hunter399 says he doesn't care how many they harvest followed by he wants reporting of harvest, enforcement of bag limits and for them to work with WDFW to manage the herds.
I am not happy about zero limits for some but I am not sure there is anything I can do about that. It is kind of like being pissed off the sun comes up every day in the east. I can wish it would come up in the west but it just isn't going to happen so I can be pissed off about it or move on to what I can control.
Using the elk to sell jerky is frustrating. I don't know that it is illegal by tribal law but if it is then it is. Speeding is illegal and I do it all the time. Not wearing a seatbelt is illegal and I do it all the time. I would be willing to be that you do or have done something illegal before and paid absolutely consequences for your illegal behavior. It happens, we all do it on some level.
One member killing dozens of bulls is frustrating. Ever hear of the "kill em all boys"? They shot a ton of deer, elk, bears, bobcats, all kinds of wildlife out of season and using illegal hunting methods greatly impacting the population and taking away opportunity from legal hunters. I know you have read operation cody, all of those cases were non natives taking game outside normal seasons and way above legal limits. It happens on both sides.
"Warm and fuzzy"? I don't believe anyone in this thread said they feel "warm and fuzzy" about what is going on with the native harvest or the non native harvest.
Right there with you, Rainier.
Pretending that a treaty negotiated between nations doesn't exist is not the answer.
Geez, did saying that make me warm and fuzzy?
Post by: nwwanderer on June 18, 2021, 03:58:53 PM
Post by: rtspring on June 18, 2021, 06:37:50 PM
The WHITE man gave them those rights....
Yes, they can shoot bulls year around.
"They" didn't give "them" anything.
It was contractually agreed upon in a treaty between two nations. That treaty is enforced and honored (on the USA end of things) by our Constitution; the supreme law of the land.
To the OPs point, it is what it is. The Colockum and Yakima herds are primary targets for local natives. If you don't want to share that with them then you just need to hunt elsewhere.
Heck, if someone told me I could shoot an extra elk every year, I wouldn't hesitate. Our elk is usually gone by May.
Change the way its worded all you want, but yes the white man GAVE them those rights. However you want to spell it out. Period! End of story.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 18, 2021, 07:15:14 PM
Post by: hunter399 on June 18, 2021, 08:47:24 PM
Fine. Then the native Americans gave the white nan the right to live here. Revoke the treaties and you would have to leave. Crazy how wording worksThat's funny ,so history can repeat itself.
No more casino
No reservation
If you look at how the treaty came about in history .
You would repeat that process onto your people.
I see this topic getting locked real quick.
As far as wildlife and wildlife laws I have no problem revoke the treaty .I guess you'll have to buy a hunting liences,fishing license,Getting up to speed with regulations and bag limits,seasons and all that fun stuff and do it with out casino money.I guess no more sovereign nation .
Do you really want all that white man "white privilege" pushed into the nation.
Just like in history ,I'm not really seeing white man going anywhere.
Better hope the federal government never falls ,you might get your wish about the treaty.The only thing that keeps your treaty is the federal government and Constitution.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 18, 2021, 09:05:59 PM
Fine. Then the native Americans gave the white nan the right to live here. Revoke the treaties and you would have to leave. Crazy how wording worksThat's funny ,so history can repeat itself.
No more casino
No reservation
If you look at how the treaty came about in history .
You would repeat that process onto your people.
I see this topic getting locked real quick.
As far as wildlife and wildlife laws I have no problem revoke the treaty .I guess you'll have to buy a hunting liences,fishing license,Getting up to speed with regulations and bag limits,seasons and all that fun stuff and do it with out casino money.I guess no more sovereign nation .
Do you really want all that white man "white privilege" pushed into the nation.
Just like in history ,I'm not really seeing white man going anywhere.
Better hope the federal government never falls ,you might get your wish about the treaty.The only thing that keeps your treaty is the federal government and Constitution.
Wow so your are basically saying we should go to war with the tribes over this? Interesting take.
Post by: hunter399 on June 18, 2021, 09:11:47 PM
The point I'm trying to make is your treaty is with the federal government not the "white man".Fine. Then the native Americans gave the white nan the right to live here. Revoke the treaties and you would have to leave. Crazy how wording worksThat's funny ,so history can repeat itself.
No more casino
No reservation
If you look at how the treaty came about in history .
You would repeat that process onto your people.
I see this topic getting locked real quick.
As far as wildlife and wildlife laws I have no problem revoke the treaty .I guess you'll have to buy a hunting liences,fishing license,Getting up to speed with regulations and bag limits,seasons and all that fun stuff and do it with out casino money.I guess no more sovereign nation .
Do you really want all that white man "white privilege" pushed into the nation.
Just like in history ,I'm not really seeing white man going anywhere.
Better hope the federal government never falls ,you might get your wish about the treaty.The only thing that keeps your treaty is the federal government and Constitution.
Wow so your are basically saying we should go to war with the tribes over this? Interesting take.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 18, 2021, 09:15:51 PM
I mean looking at history. When the treaties were signed, how many members of the federal government were not white men? But sure. The federal government acts as a representative of the People of the United States in those treaties. If you don’t like what they are doing, take it it up with you elected reps. Kind of veiled threat behind saying they are protected by constitution, although your rights are also only protected by the constitution and the federal government so......The point I'm trying to make is your treaty is with the federal government not the "white man".Fine. Then the native Americans gave the white nan the right to live here. Revoke the treaties and you would have to leave. Crazy how wording worksThat's funny ,so history can repeat itself.
No more casino
No reservation
If you look at how the treaty came about in history .
You would repeat that process onto your people.
I see this topic getting locked real quick.
As far as wildlife and wildlife laws I have no problem revoke the treaty .I guess you'll have to buy a hunting liences,fishing license,Getting up to speed with regulations and bag limits,seasons and all that fun stuff and do it with out casino money.I guess no more sovereign nation .
Do you really want all that white man "white privilege" pushed into the nation.
Just like in history ,I'm not really seeing white man going anywhere.
Better hope the federal government never falls ,you might get your wish about the treaty.The only thing that keeps your treaty is the federal government and Constitution.
Wow so your are basically saying we should go to war with the tribes over this? Interesting take.
Post by: hunter399 on June 18, 2021, 09:26:18 PM
And just like that every time our constitution is used as toilet paper. Your treaty is worth a little less and a little less.I mean looking at history. When the treaties were signed, how many members of the federal government were not white men? But sure. The federal government acts as a representative of the People of the United States in those treaties. If you don’t like what they are doing, take it it up with you elected reps. Kind of veiled threat behind saying they are protected by constitution, although your rights are also only protected by the constitution and the federal government so......The point I'm trying to make is your treaty is with the federal government not the "white man".Fine. Then the native Americans gave the white nan the right to live here. Revoke the treaties and you would have to leave. Crazy how wording worksThat's funny ,so history can repeat itself.
No more casino
No reservation
If you look at how the treaty came about in history .
You would repeat that process onto your people.
I see this topic getting locked real quick.
As far as wildlife and wildlife laws I have no problem revoke the treaty .I guess you'll have to buy a hunting liences,fishing license,Getting up to speed with regulations and bag limits,seasons and all that fun stuff and do it with out casino money.I guess no more sovereign nation .
Do you really want all that white man "white privilege" pushed into the nation.
Just like in history ,I'm not really seeing white man going anywhere.
Better hope the federal government never falls ,you might get your wish about the treaty.The only thing that keeps your treaty is the federal government and Constitution.
Wow so your are basically saying we should go to war with the tribes over this? Interesting take.
Ever heard that saying it isn't worth the paper it was printed on. Same with the treaty and constitution.Every year less men in this country stand behind it.
In return makes it worth a little less and little less each year.
It isn't me that makes it worth less ,but the direction our new generation heads does not fair well for the treaty.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 18, 2021, 09:34:37 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 07:12:36 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 08:06:31 AM
I would also argue that non native poaching is not prosecuted very well. Loss of license. Not a big deal to a poacher. The guys in operation Cody didn’t seem to get much punishment.
I’m am fine agreeing to disagree.
Post by: hunter399 on June 21, 2021, 08:39:46 AM
When the resource is gone ,ITS GONE....
Poaching ,tribal hunting,whatever.
Done with this topic.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 09:02:06 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 10:08:59 AM
I forgot to add, tribal hunters provided that Asian poaching ring leader elk and deer weekly!! That guy received most his meat from tribal guys. And I do agree non tribal poachers don’t get enough punishment, that we are in agreement.And had that Asian been given a stiffer penalty it would send a message to others to not be the middle man for the tribes. If there is nobody to sell to/no demand then there is no need for the for overharvest. A big part of the reason they take so many is they can sell it to people like the guy in Operation Cody. You can't control the tribes because of the treaty but the treaty doesn't apply to the ring leader. You can give him a stiffer punishment and send a message to others, don't do this. The slap on the wrist he got makes the risk versus reward worth it to others to do the same thing.
There are tools and laws in place to greatly reduce overharvest they just aren't used.
Post by: ctwiggs1 on June 21, 2021, 10:15:32 AM
Those states also have wolves (another contentious issue).
What every other state does not have is WDFW.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 10:16:48 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 12:07:37 PM
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 12:13:53 PM
Post by: gutsnthegrass on June 21, 2021, 12:20:38 PM
Agree, that azz hat got house restriction, it was a joke and slap in the face to Todd and all the other UC police that kicked butt on that case. Those prosecutors should be strung up by their toes (being nice). Worst case of poaching in our history and nothing was done to the offenders.
And this is a huge problem. These poachers should be used as examples and prosecuted to the fullest extent, otherwise, the message to other poachers is they can take what they want and only get a slap on the wrist.
Post by: NRA4LIFE on June 21, 2021, 12:45:43 PM
Post by: HillHound on June 21, 2021, 12:52:44 PM
Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
Post by: Whitefoot on June 21, 2021, 01:12:55 PM
Have had multiple experiences coming across Native Americans with Bulls in the back of their pickups during the spring and summer. Just happened again last weekend. A buddy ran into a pickup with a 3 point bull loaded up. They said it’s open year round for anything with visible antlers. Our experience discussing this with the wardens felt more like they were annoyed with us talking about it then having any issues with it. Just doesn’t seem right here in 2021. What say you?
Should of just asked me bro!
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 01:39:00 PM
Post by: h20hunter on June 21, 2021, 01:49:18 PM
Post by: Whitefoot on June 21, 2021, 01:49:53 PM
No pictures, but the warden was very aware. It was the Colockum
They didn't break the law. It's totally legal for them and even if you would have taken pictures it would still be legal.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 02:04:16 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 02:14:56 PM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 02:19:20 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 02:44:48 PM
Rainier, have you seen this rampant non native poaching? I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and I see evidence once in a while, but not enough to say rampant. Not calling you out here, just curious where I need to start hanging out more, I need poacher points!!I had two elk shot on my property this year. Turned them both in. I assume they were shot by my neighbor filling his freezer or masterhunters hunting the DNR adjacent to me and the elk crossed the fence and died. They just trespassed to retrieve them, deboned them and left the hide and bones on my place. Last year my neighbor called in a poached 6 point bull elk shot on Wilson Creek road. Two years ago I found a bull, no head but everything else still there about 100 yards off wilson creek road. That same year in August my neighbor found a nice 6 point bull still in velvet shot and the entire left to rot. Two or three years ago a member of the Tacoma SCI chapter called in a slaughter of cow elk in the colockum during the rifle season, maybe 13, I can't remember. There was an article in the paper about it. That's all in one GMU, 328 and most of it in a 9-15 square mile area. That's not even 25% of the unit. So yes I would say there is a huge problem.
There was another article last year about out of state hunters that shot a giant bull and were trying to take it out whole to their home state where it was legal and wouldn't be questioned.
There is not a doubt in my mind you could get 20 points a year if you camped out on my place from September to December and turned in trespassers and poachers.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 02:53:08 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 02:56:24 PM
It is calving season right now. I have 50 cows on my place and 50 calves. Some of those cows are yearlings and some didn't get bread. The reason I have a one to one ratio is because there are a ton of twins.
Had half of those 6 cows that I saw dead in August been mothers of twins that is 12 calves that probably became coyote, cougar or bear food.
Again I will say yes non native poaching is a huge problem and impacts our opportunity.
Fix what you can and once that is done then work on what you can't control.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 03:03:17 PM
That sucks to hear, it’s all bad. But, it just as well could have been natives? Bruce Richards (retired game warden of over 40 years), told me many stories of natives killing and leaving animals, they only took what fell in front of them. Made his veins bulge when he told the stories. I would consider it all poaching.I would bet a ton of money the two cows that were dead on my place this past winter were not natives. They were either master hunters or a neighbor.
I would have had a dead deer on my place as well but when I saw a rig parked next to my fence I hiked in to the deer hotspot and found a father(50's) and son(20's) getting ready to pull the trigger on a small 2x3 deer. They were pissed when I spoiled their hunt but really embarrassed to find out I was the owner of the property and the one that put up the sign that they parked next to. "We thought this was still timber company land and someone was just trying to post it to keep us out."
My neighbor did end up with a dead deer on his place. A neighbor just couldn't help himself and shot it. Neighbor had cell game cams and called it in. He didn't press charges but wanted the poacher to know he had robbed his wife of the opportunity to shoot a buck on their property because this guy shot it instead.
Post by: Bowhunter3 on June 21, 2021, 03:03:48 PM
Rainier, have you seen this rampant non native poaching? I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and I see evidence once in a while, but not enough to say rampant. Not calling you out here, just curious where I need to start hanging out more, I need poacher points!!I had two elk shot on my property this year. Turned them both in. I assume they were shot by my neighbor filling his freezer or masterhunters hunting the DNR adjacent to me and the elk crossed the fence and died. They just trespassed to retrieve them, deboned them and left the hide and bones on my place. Last year my neighbor called in a poached 6 point bull elk shot on Wilson Creek road. Two years ago I found a bull, no head but everything else still there about 100 yards off wilson creek road. That same year in August my neighbor found a nice 6 point bull still in velvet shot and the entire left to rot. Two or three years ago a member of the Tacoma SCI chapter called in a slaughter of cow elk in the colockum during the rifle season, maybe 13, I can't remember. There was an article in the paper about it. That's all in one GMU, 328 and most of it in a 9-15 square mile area. That's not even 25% of the unit. So yes I would say there is a huge problem.
There was another article last year about out of state hunters that shot a giant bull and were trying to take it out whole to their home state where it was legal and wouldn't be questioned.
There is not a doubt in my mind you could get 20 points a year if you camped out on my place from September to December and turned in trespassers and poachers.
Why don’t you camp out on your land and turn these poachers in?
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 03:05:13 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 03:33:59 PM
So to have as much land as I do unfortunately that means I have to work. I show up to my place Friday and find a dead elk that wasn't there the Sunday before when I left. I give permission to about 30-40 different people for all three seasons so I have more eyes on the place. They run people off all the time so they can have access to my place, small price to pay for some great hunting ground.Rainier, have you seen this rampant non native poaching? I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and I see evidence once in a while, but not enough to say rampant. Not calling you out here, just curious where I need to start hanging out more, I need poacher points!!I had two elk shot on my property this year. Turned them both in. I assume they were shot by my neighbor filling his freezer or masterhunters hunting the DNR adjacent to me and the elk crossed the fence and died. They just trespassed to retrieve them, deboned them and left the hide and bones on my place. Last year my neighbor called in a poached 6 point bull elk shot on Wilson Creek road. Two years ago I found a bull, no head but everything else still there about 100 yards off wilson creek road. That same year in August my neighbor found a nice 6 point bull still in velvet shot and the entire left to rot. Two or three years ago a member of the Tacoma SCI chapter called in a slaughter of cow elk in the colockum during the rifle season, maybe 13, I can't remember. There was an article in the paper about it. That's all in one GMU, 328 and most of it in a 9-15 square mile area. That's not even 25% of the unit. So yes I would say there is a huge problem.
There was another article last year about out of state hunters that shot a giant bull and were trying to take it out whole to their home state where it was legal and wouldn't be questioned.
There is not a doubt in my mind you could get 20 points a year if you camped out on my place from September to December and turned in trespassers and poachers.
Why don’t you camp out on your land and turn these poachers in?
I have personally caught multiple people red handed and prefer to go the education route since I am not there all the time and don't want my place trashed by some guy that was poaching and is now pissed off that he is getting penalized for it.
Most of the dead animals I find on my place are when I am planting trees, spraying weeds or fixing fences that someone has cut to drive their quad in and retrieve a poached animal.
Post by: Bowhunter3 on June 21, 2021, 03:42:13 PM
So to have as much land as I do unfortunately that means I have to work. I show up to my place Friday and find a dead elk that wasn't there the Sunday before when I left. I give permission to about 30-40 different people for all three seasons so I have more eyes on the place. They run people off all the time so they can have access to my place, small price to pay for some great hunting ground.Rainier, have you seen this rampant non native poaching? I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and I see evidence once in a while, but not enough to say rampant. Not calling you out here, just curious where I need to start hanging out more, I need poacher points!!I had two elk shot on my property this year. Turned them both in. I assume they were shot by my neighbor filling his freezer or masterhunters hunting the DNR adjacent to me and the elk crossed the fence and died. They just trespassed to retrieve them, deboned them and left the hide and bones on my place. Last year my neighbor called in a poached 6 point bull elk shot on Wilson Creek road. Two years ago I found a bull, no head but everything else still there about 100 yards off wilson creek road. That same year in August my neighbor found a nice 6 point bull still in velvet shot and the entire left to rot. Two or three years ago a member of the Tacoma SCI chapter called in a slaughter of cow elk in the colockum during the rifle season, maybe 13, I can't remember. There was an article in the paper about it. That's all in one GMU, 328 and most of it in a 9-15 square mile area. That's not even 25% of the unit. So yes I would say there is a huge problem.
There was another article last year about out of state hunters that shot a giant bull and were trying to take it out whole to their home state where it was legal and wouldn't be questioned.
There is not a doubt in my mind you could get 20 points a year if you camped out on my place from September to December and turned in trespassers and poachers.
Why don’t you camp out on your land and turn these poachers in?
I have personally caught multiple people red handed and prefer to go the education route since I am not there all the time and don't want my place trashed by some guy that was poaching and is now pissed off that he is getting penalized for it.
Most of the dead animals I find on my place are when I am planting trees, spraying weeds or fixing fences that someone has cut to drive their quad in and retrieve a poached animal.
Understood, was just curious. I would probably be met with the same time constraint. Gotta be frustrating for sure. Nice of you to provide access for so many folks. Hope they’re able to provide their time to help with repairs when needed.
Post by: OutHouse on June 21, 2021, 03:49:36 PM
I believe 90% of non natives wish all poachers were hung by their privates! Not sure how we can convince the prosecutors to ramp up the penalties, heck, some counties are decriminalizing shop lifting in this, no responsibility for what you do times. I was under the assumption that the east side judges and prosecutors were tougher, sounds like I was wrong. Not sure why penalties don’t hurt, but again, besides never voting for democrats, what else can we do?
Most game violations are considered low priority whether they are felony or misdemeanor/gross misdemeanor level. When they are in the misdemeanor category, those prosecutors have upwards of several hundred cases at any given time. They are more focused on domestic violence assaults and DUIs because of the greater impact those crimes have on people. At the felony level, the prosecutors have fewer cases (but still a lot) and again they are more concerned with prosecuting serious assaults, rapes, murders, what have you. I think it comes down to the amount of time a prosecutor has for his cases. They have to prioritize. I don't like it either but the tax payers would have to fund more prosecutors and defense attorneys if they expect a prosecutor to have time to vigorously go after these guys.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 04:14:21 PM
My wife wants me to quit buying more land, it really is a lot of work to maintain. I don't have time to enjoy it because I am always working on it or trying to keep someone off of it.So to have as much land as I do unfortunately that means I have to work. I show up to my place Friday and find a dead elk that wasn't there the Sunday before when I left. I give permission to about 30-40 different people for all three seasons so I have more eyes on the place. They run people off all the time so they can have access to my place, small price to pay for some great hunting ground.Rainier, have you seen this rampant non native poaching? I’ve spent a lot of time in the woods and I see evidence once in a while, but not enough to say rampant. Not calling you out here, just curious where I need to start hanging out more, I need poacher points!!I had two elk shot on my property this year. Turned them both in. I assume they were shot by my neighbor filling his freezer or masterhunters hunting the DNR adjacent to me and the elk crossed the fence and died. They just trespassed to retrieve them, deboned them and left the hide and bones on my place. Last year my neighbor called in a poached 6 point bull elk shot on Wilson Creek road. Two years ago I found a bull, no head but everything else still there about 100 yards off wilson creek road. That same year in August my neighbor found a nice 6 point bull still in velvet shot and the entire left to rot. Two or three years ago a member of the Tacoma SCI chapter called in a slaughter of cow elk in the colockum during the rifle season, maybe 13, I can't remember. There was an article in the paper about it. That's all in one GMU, 328 and most of it in a 9-15 square mile area. That's not even 25% of the unit. So yes I would say there is a huge problem.
There was another article last year about out of state hunters that shot a giant bull and were trying to take it out whole to their home state where it was legal and wouldn't be questioned.
There is not a doubt in my mind you could get 20 points a year if you camped out on my place from September to December and turned in trespassers and poachers.
Why don’t you camp out on your land and turn these poachers in?
I have personally caught multiple people red handed and prefer to go the education route since I am not there all the time and don't want my place trashed by some guy that was poaching and is now pissed off that he is getting penalized for it.
Most of the dead animals I find on my place are when I am planting trees, spraying weeds or fixing fences that someone has cut to drive their quad in and retrieve a poached animal.
Understood, was just curious. I would probably be met with the same time constraint. Gotta be frustrating for sure. Nice of you to provide access for so many folks. Hope they’re able to provide their time to help with repairs when needed.
The father son pair that I caught during deer season took away time I was spending with my father in law. His health is failing and I was trying to get him on deer and I have to break away from that to go run off a couple of guys that saw the signs and just trespassed anyways. In todays world of onX there is no excuse for being on the wrong land.
But back on topic I still think that poaching by non natives is a huge deal.
I totally get why it isn't a big deal to prosecutors. They are spread thin and have to prioritize. Do you want to help a guy that is pissed off that an elk got shot a father who's daughter was raped? If it were my daughter I would want justice in the rape case before the elk poaching. Of course I think there would be enough money for prosecutors and jails if they weren't making safe injection sites. They already have safe injections sites they are called jails.
Post by: idaho guy on June 21, 2021, 04:19:15 PM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 04:29:51 PM
Post by: Bowhunter3 on June 21, 2021, 04:59:36 PM
Post by: Platensek-po on June 21, 2021, 05:06:37 PM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Post by: idaho guy on June 21, 2021, 05:18:03 PM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 05:21:57 PM
Complain about the treaty until you are blue in the face and do nothing about the non native poaching that is just as prevalent and tell me how good you feel about fighting a fight you couldn’t win versus making a difference by getting your own house in order. Non native poaching is your house and is what you can control. Don’t complain about native poaching and turn a blind eye on the non native poaching.
Post by: HillHound on June 21, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 05:51:19 PM
And then they say,
“That native is allowed to shoot as many elk as he wants and he shouldn’t do it just because he is allowed to. I’m only allowed to shoot one a year and I do everything I can to fill that tag and even offer help to anyone that wants it so they can fill their tag.”
I honestly could shoot an elk every year and help 30 more get taken each year until the resource runs out and it would be perfectly legal but I don’t because it’s not good for the elk.
I choose to do what I can. I improve the habitat I own, 8,000 trees planted, three water sources created, hundreds of gallons of noxious weed killer sprayed each year, limit harvest on my property, aggressively predator hunt and limit vehicle traffic in spring when calves and fawns are being born.
Do I wish some natives were more concerned about the resource? Yes but I focus my time and energy on what I can change and I can see my efforts paying off every year.
Post by: Taco280AI on June 21, 2021, 06:02:33 PM
I choose to do what I can. I improve the habitat I own, 8,000 trees planted, three water sources created, hundreds of gallons of noxious weed killer sprayed each year, limit harvest on my property, aggressively predator hunt and limit vehicle traffic in spring when calves and fawns are being born.
Do I wish some natives were more concerned about the resource? Yes but I focus my time and energy on what I can change and I can see my efforts paying off every year.
:tup:
Post by: trophyhunt on June 21, 2021, 06:53:47 PM
“Hunting” unlimited game by treaty or poaching unlimited game by non natives, it boils down to lack of ethics or care for the resource. It’s really a matter of being a piece of *censored* or not. It doesn’t matter if you do it legally or not. If you’re willing to continually drop animals for profit or negligent personal gain, over and over and over again, karma will find you. The treaty will never change, and the non native poaching will never change(why would it, you literally can’t get in trouble). All we can do is teach our youth to respect the resource. Prosecution won’t get more strict, simply the opposite. If you spend any time up in the colockum, you see both. You also have the choice to take the matter into your own hands. Be creative. I can assure you wdfw won’t do *censored* unless you hand them a closed and shut case, and even then…:tup:
Post by: Rainier10 on June 21, 2021, 10:26:42 PM
I think in 2021 there probably shouldn’t be unlimited harvest by one user group.
I think all user groups should work together to manage the resource for a sustainable population.
I agree 100% with Idaho guy that the tribe could make some good money while improving the recreational hunting for all user groups.
Unfortunately I’m not sure that will happen but it would be great if it did.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 21, 2021, 11:10:57 PM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Oh for sure. Those guys were losers. But you know what. They are still out there fishin closed waters and poaching animals. Cause year after year nothing happens to them. It’s just one of those situations where if you live in a glass house... props to rainier10 for fighting the good fight and doing the right thing and setting a great example.
Post by: Buckhunter24 on June 22, 2021, 04:01:03 AM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Oh for sure. Those guys were losers. But you know what. They are still out there fishin closed waters and poaching animals. Cause year after year nothing happens to them. It’s just one of those situations where if you live in a glass house... props to rainier10 for fighting the good fight and doing the right thing and setting a great example.
Maybe you can collect 10 points sounds like you know where to start looking :dunno:
Post by: trophyhunt on June 22, 2021, 04:31:51 AM
Post by: idaho guy on June 22, 2021, 05:07:09 AM
Just went back to the beginning post.
I think in 2021 there probably shouldn’t be unlimited harvest by one user group.
I think all user groups should work together to manage the resource for a sustainable population.
I agree 100% with Idaho guy that the tribe could make some good money while improving the recreational hunting for all user groups.
Unfortunately I’m not sure that will happen but it would be great if it did.
:tup:
Post by: idaho guy on June 22, 2021, 05:09:07 AM
So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Oh for sure. Those guys were losers. But you know what. They are still out there fishin closed waters and poaching animals. Cause year after year nothing happens to them. It’s just one of those situations where if you live in a glass house... props to rainier10 for fighting the good fight and doing the right thing and setting a great example.
Maybe you can collect 10 points sounds like you know where to start looking :dunno:
:yeah: why don’t you turn them in ?
Post by: Rainier10 on June 22, 2021, 09:58:41 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 22, 2021, 10:01:20 AM
Please try to keep this civil and within forum rules.
There is some good discussion and so far we have been able to keep this on the open forum for all to see including non members. Let's try to keep it here. The more eyes on this topic the better. It stimulates conversation and thought on a very sensitive topic.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 22, 2021, 10:31:18 AM
Who says I haven’t? These guys know all game wardens on a first name basis and have had their licenses revoked yet are still out there. I haven’t seen these guys in like 15 yrs either. They do in and out of jail likes it’s their second home. Last time I talked to a sheriff about them he just said “yeah we know but we will wait till we can nail them for something stronger. Can’t revoke their licenses a second time.” These were dudes I knew through working construction a long time ago. I remember one of them was out fishing in his jet boat with an ankle bracelet on. Nothing says house arrest like fishin on a river right?So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Oh for sure. Those guys were losers. But you know what. They are still out there fishin closed waters and poaching animals. Cause year after year nothing happens to them. It’s just one of those situations where if you live in a glass house... props to rainier10 for fighting the good fight and doing the right thing and setting a great example.
Maybe you can collect 10 points sounds like you know where to start looking :dunno:
:yeah: why don’t you turn them in ?
Post by: idaho guy on June 22, 2021, 11:02:33 AM
Post by: idaho guy on June 22, 2021, 11:07:20 AM
Who says I haven’t? These guys know all game wardens on a first name basis and have had their licenses revoked yet are still out there. I haven’t seen these guys in like 15 yrs either. They do in and out of jail likes it’s their second home. Last time I talked to a sheriff about them he just said “yeah we know but we will wait till we can nail them for something stronger. Can’t revoke their licenses a second time.” These were dudes I knew through working construction a long time ago. I remember one of them was out fishing in his jet boat with an ankle bracelet on. Nothing says house arrest like fishin on a river right?So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Oh for sure. Those guys were losers. But you know what. They are still out there fishin closed waters and poaching animals. Cause year after year nothing happens to them. It’s just one of those situations where if you live in a glass house... props to rainier10 for fighting the good fight and doing the right thing and setting a great example.
Maybe you can collect 10 points sounds like you know where to start looking :dunno:
:yeah: why don’t you turn them in ?
Thats a bummer-but if you have not seen them in 15 years how do you know they are still actively poaching?
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 22, 2021, 11:10:19 AM
Its kind of shocking to hear about all this rampant poaching going on in Washington. I have mainly hunted Idaho and Montana my whole life and I don't really know of anyone that even wants to poach or would consider it. The few I know that got pinched were honest mistakes and the game warden gave them NO leniency. To the point I felt it was unjustified. I will take your word for it but where I hunt they cant wait to write a ticket even when it probably doesn't make common sense. The difference is pretty baffling. Sounds like you cant get them to do anything and we have a bunch of Barney Fifes just living to write tickets. Maybe between the 2 states we could get some officers in the middle :chuckle: I don't know maybe we have some big time poaching going on around here and I just dont know about it.
I've witnessed spotlighting in N Idaho multiple times but who knows how much it stacks up alongside Washington. I'd guess there is a lot of illegal take in Idaho, particularly if baiting is taken into account.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 22, 2021, 11:39:02 AM
Have had multiple experiences coming across Native Americans with Bulls in the back of their pickups during the spring and summer. Just happened again last weekend. A buddy ran into a pickup with a 3 point bull loaded up. They said it’s open year round for anything with visible antlers. Our experience discussing this with the wardens felt more like they were annoyed with us talking about it then having any issues with it. Just doesn’t seem right here in 2021. What say you?It is pretty simple...they have a treaty right to hunt and a state warden has no jurisdiction over them.
I agree with the comments espousing the win-win scenario for greater cooperation between tribal and state wildlife managers; but I understand Tribes that aren't all that eager to work with a state that is both incompetent and has a long history of screwing Tribes and refusing to recognize their rights.
The other 800lb gorilla in the room that never gets talked about...a lot of the habitat destruction and degradation which has an enormous effect on the quantity of fish and game available to harvest has disproportionately benefited non-tribal members (or been at the hands of non-tribal members)...so its a bit tough to ask them to significantly reduce their harvest when such actions have caused them the most harm while getting the least benefit. :twocents:
Post by: idaho guy on June 22, 2021, 11:55:14 AM
Its kind of shocking to hear about all this rampant poaching going on in Washington. I have mainly hunted Idaho and Montana my whole life and I don't really know of anyone that even wants to poach or would consider it. The few I know that got pinched were honest mistakes and the game warden gave them NO leniency. To the point I felt it was unjustified. I will take your word for it but where I hunt they cant wait to write a ticket even when it probably doesn't make common sense. The difference is pretty baffling. Sounds like you cant get them to do anything and we have a bunch of Barney Fifes just living to write tickets. Maybe between the 2 states we could get some officers in the middle :chuckle: I don't know maybe we have some big time poaching going on around here and I just dont know about it.
I've witnessed spotlighting in N Idaho multiple times but who knows how much it stacks up alongside Washington. I'd guess there is a lot of illegal take in Idaho, particularly if baiting is taken into account.
:tup: I didn't really think that post through. I just got a pm that reminded me of 1 specific user group that is pretty bad in the game violation department. I just have kept my distance from that type for a long time but I basically didnt think through all the people I have known in the past. I think every 5 acres parcel might have a corn pile in the panhandle :chuckle: I had not thought about that one either. You guys are right on this one. I still think some of our game wardens seem overly agressive on technicalities but thinking way back there is a lot of stuff going on never gets caught or prosecuted. They say ignorance is bliss ha ha but I was just thinking about the hunters I associate with now. I have known some real dandys in the past but just decided real quick not to hang around them at all.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 22, 2021, 12:08:20 PM
I knew these guys through my oldWho says I haven’t? These guys know all game wardens on a first name basis and have had their licenses revoked yet are still out there. I haven’t seen these guys in like 15 yrs either. They do in and out of jail likes it’s their second home. Last time I talked to a sheriff about them he just said “yeah we know but we will wait till we can nail them for something stronger. Can’t revoke their licenses a second time.” These were dudes I knew through working construction a long time ago. I remember one of them was out fishing in his jet boat with an ankle bracelet on. Nothing says house arrest like fishin on a river right?So you think the number one priority is to revise the treaty and take away the natives rights, put rules in place for them to follow before we enforce the rules that are already in place for non natives and are being broken by non natives on a regular basis at an alarming rate?Exactly multiple deer and elk a week for two years and he gets house arrest monitoring. That's one guy responsible for hundreds of animals poached.Like I said before people have this attitude because native or not there are certain people who will rape the resource till it’s gone. And using the wolf and fox analogy again, keeping the wolves out of the chicken house does no good when the fox is let in. So that is why people keep bringing up natives, because if we do away with all non native poaching(another major issue that needs to be heavily prosecuted)we still have a major 2 legged predator that may or may not be decimating our elk and deer herds because there is no way to track or regulate them. Let them hunt but if the natives want anything left to hunt they better wake up and start issuing tags, even if they can get a ton of them, at least they will have numbers to make decisions off of to help the herd. Now all that matters is if there is a jerky order to fill or not. If tags are required wdfw can now enforce, even if it is to see that they have tags for the velvet bulls they are killing in June. Yes that’s right I said it, off the Rez be held accountable by our police, much like when we are on the Rez. Don’t know what’s stopping me from throwing a native pride hat on and killing anything anytime because I can’t say I’ve ever seen wdfw checking for validation of tribe and hunting rights, unless they just know them all by name and vehicle description so there is no need to contact. I would be concerned about this if I care about the resource and was native. I would want wdfw making sure I was legit and there wasn’t a bunch of us non native people slaying elk with Yakama nation bumper stickers.
How many others are out there only taking a couple deer or elk a year? How many farmers are taking a few deer and elk that are eating their crops and giving them to their friends and family? How many spike by two elk or how many 2 point deer are being shot and snuck out of the woods or left to rot?
And are those guys worried about prosecution? It is only a slap on the wrist for hundreds of deer and elk. What could they possibly do to a farmer who shoots 4 deer and 3 elk a year on his property that are damaging his crops?
I am here to say it is a huge problem.
You have the natives that have treaty rights saying they can harvest what they want.
At the same time you have non natives poaching knowing it is illegal but also knowing if they get caught nothing significant is going to happen to them. If something significant happened to them you would fix half of the problem, the half that you legally have control over.
Unfortunately you have people complaining about the half that you have no control over and doing nothing about the half that you can control.
How do you think you are going to enforce these new rules and limits you put on native harvest if you already can't enforce the rules that are in place for non natives?
I dont think we should change treaties or try and dictate rules for tribes they are sovereign nations. With that said what some of these tribal members are doing is absurd and wanton waste of a very valuable renewable resource. There are tribes selling elk tags to white guys for 20k and up because they manage their game. They require an enrolled member to guide you on your overpriced elk tag providing valuable employment to tribal members. It would be good for the tribes AND everyone else if they cooperated with state wildlife agencies and actually managed the herds for a better future. Most importantly it would be WAY better for those elk herds. You are right I cant control the abuse but I wont condone it either . The tribal hunting discussed here has no affect on me at all but its wrong in todays world of more people and less habitat. Just because I have a right does not mean I should exercise it. I have lots of rights I choose not to exercise because doing so is a bad idea. Truth matters and saying "I cant control it" so I will deflect the blame at other bad actors will not solve the problem. You have to speak up and address the problem and encourage the tribe to come to the table with other state wildlife agencies. It is better for the tribe,every other hunter and most importantly the ELK. Some of these posts seem to have some kind of white "guilt" or whatever you want to call it. Call a spade a spade and address the problem-ignoring it because you dont want to offend some group is not the answer. Address all the problems-tribal over harvest,poaching and predators and your elk might stand a chance. Or you can ignore it and focus on 1 or 2 of the other issues and your elk are screwed.If nothing changes at least you can tell your grandkids you tried not that you just ignored it because you had no "control". You have a voice and I am not talking about bashing anyone. Actually controlling harvest BENEFITS the tribe more than anyone since they have the most opportunity to actually hunt the elk.
Sure. I also grew up with guys whose favorite saying was “closed waters are the best waters”, and poached deer like crazy with crossbows from their pickups. Some had lost fishing and hunting privileges and still did it. I was young and thought they were cool. Now I think they were just dumb crooks who basically never got
Punished and didn’t care. So if you aren’t going to punish the people who wantonly break the laws how are you going to encourage people who have the right to do it to
Stop? Basically the government has told them they don’t care and aren’t going to protect the resource, many on here say the same. So how can you come to the table and say you need to stop
Legally harvesting these animals but we are unwilling to stop
Illegal harvest?
Wow you grew up with some real losers :chuckle: I said address ALL the problems. I doubt poaching takes anywhere near unlimited tribal harvest but doesn’t matter what I think. You can address ALL the problems or you can focus on one exclusively and you will be guaranteed to fail. The elk lose
Oh for sure. Those guys were losers. But you know what. They are still out there fishin closed waters and poaching animals. Cause year after year nothing happens to them. It’s just one of those situations where if you live in a glass house... props to rainier10 for fighting the good fight and doing the right thing and setting a great example.
Maybe you can collect 10 points sounds like you know where to start looking :dunno:
:yeah: why don’t you turn them in ?
Thats a bummer-but if you have not seen them in 15 years how do you know they are still actively poaching?
Manager at the company I worked at. He was a good guy who had a wild youth and these were his old fishing hunting buddies. He is a straight shooter now but still knows these guys. They haven’t changed a bit from what he tells me. When I was young I didn’t really think much of it. As I got older and more involved in hunting and conservation it really hit me what these guys were doing. I’m amazed about what people will do in the woods and get away with while
I constantly am checking to
Make sure I’m doing the right thing. It can be hard to hold the line but having kids made the choice easy. I felt I had to teach them the right things and to do it the right way or it’s all gunna be lost. So
Much is wrong with our wildlife management here. Heck I reported 2 cow elk poached to wdfw in April and never heard back from them. :dunno: I’ve fished in Washington my whole life and never been asked for
My license. Neither has my dad. I’ve had my boat checked and my boaters card asked for but not my fishing license. Plus hunting and fishing violations are not the only things happening out there. Illegal dumping, illegal harvest of trees (especially before Christmas), drug use and manufacture, illegal off-roading, guns fired in occupied campgrounds, the list is enormous. We need stupider penalties and more nforcement.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 22, 2021, 12:19:04 PM
Hunted southeast Idaho a few years ago, by Paris, Utah boarder. Couldn't believe the crap we saw, hiked in the dark to get to the top of a mountain, in the valley for half my hike I could see trucks turning off/on headlights as they were driving in the woods below me. Having people leaving the woods every morning as we were going in to hunt, I went to the local police dept but they said there just isn't enough wardens around and shrugged it off. I always thought when I was younger that poaching would go away as people grew up and got wiser, makes me sick to think adults are out there teaching young hunters how to poach.Its kind of shocking to hear about all this rampant poaching going on in Washington. I have mainly hunted Idaho and Montana my whole life and I don't really know of anyone that even wants to poach or would consider it. The few I know that got pinched were honest mistakes and the game warden gave them NO leniency. To the point I felt it was unjustified. I will take your word for it but where I hunt they cant wait to write a ticket even when it probably doesn't make common sense. The difference is pretty baffling. Sounds like you cant get them to do anything and we have a bunch of Barney Fifes just living to write tickets. Maybe between the 2 states we could get some officers in the middle :chuckle: I don't know maybe we have some big time poaching going on around here and I just dont know about it.
I've witnessed spotlighting in N Idaho multiple times but who knows how much it stacks up alongside Washington. I'd guess there is a lot of illegal take in Idaho, particularly if baiting is taken into account.
:tup: I didn't really think that post through. I just got a pm that reminded me of 1 specific user group that is pretty bad in the game violation department. I just have kept my distance from that type for a long time but I basically didnt think through all the people I have known in the past. I think every 5 acres parcel might have a corn pile in the panhandle :chuckle: I had not thought about that one either. You guys are right on this one. I still think some of our game wardens seem overly agressive on technicalities but thinking way back there is a lot of stuff going on never gets caught or prosecuted. They say ignorance is bliss ha ha but I was just thinking about the hunters I associate with now. I have known some real dandys in the past but just decided real quick not to hang around them at all.
Post by: Stein on June 22, 2021, 12:44:37 PM
Same year saw several guys wounding antelope, having them run off and then just shooting another one that also ran off. At least 4 wounded that got away that I saw. Year before that, a group of four put about 20 rounds into a huge herd densely packed together about 600 yards away, only one retrieved and it was shot in the hind quarter, wonder how many died in the coming hours and days.
Last year I didn't have an unpunched buck tag and was working on filling my doe tag and one night four wounded bucks wandered by. All four limping on one of their hind legs.
Go watch a shoulder season shootout, plenty of ugly stuff to go around unfortunately. That's just the wasted animals during legal season.
In my book, if you shoot more animals than you have tags for it's poaching. The two area wardens always seem to have at least one animal in their truck.
Unfortunately, it's everywhere from every user group. We're all people and there are x% of bad apples in every group.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 24, 2021, 09:29:03 AM
The above thread is about the blues but the same thing is true everywhere. 25 years ago bear baiting and hound hunting were banned massively increasing predator numbers. Those are making a huge impact on our deer and elk herds everywhere. This is another one that is not the natives fault, we did this to ourselves. It would be great if the tribes were willing to come to the table but why would they help us provide more animals for the predators to eat?
Post by: Maverick on June 24, 2021, 11:03:44 AM
I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 24, 2021, 11:30:11 AM
Post by: johnbmyersii on June 24, 2021, 12:16:23 PM
Yakama tribe= ZERO limits, a few very bad apples= more bulls killed by the tribe than non natives. We will never know, but I’d bet on it! Not including other tribes that harvest in that area, like the mucks!!
I couldn't agree more. When I went out on the firing center last march, the sign-out sheet for the past week showed 3 mule deer and 5 bull elk, in one week alone. The signatures on the signouts were all from the same 3 people, and makes we wonder how many animals actually get taken out of there throughout the year. With all this, us locals to the area suffer because we got Alkali changed from general branched bull to a quality hunt so lose out on that category.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 24, 2021, 12:20:35 PM
I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 24, 2021, 12:21:57 PM
Even the jerky guy (yakama member) was complaining about fellow natives on the YTC last year, lol. I'd like to see your question answered in court!!!Yakama tribe= ZERO limits, a few very bad apples= more bulls killed by the tribe than non natives. We will never know, but I’d bet on it! Not including other tribes that harvest in that area, like the mucks!!
I couldn't agree more. When I went out on the firing center last march, the sign-out sheet for the past week showed 3 mule deer and 5 bull elk, in one week alone. The signatures on the signouts were all from the same 3 people, and makes we wonder how many animals actually get taken out of there throughout the year. With all this, us locals to the area suffer because we got Alkali changed from general branched bull to a quality hunt so lose out on that category.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 24, 2021, 12:23:57 PM
My idea is wdfw grow a pair and match the seasons with all the tribes in our state. That way when everything is gone, maybe the tribes will have a reason to come to the table, and yes, I'm 100% serious.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
Post by: johnbmyersii on June 24, 2021, 12:26:23 PM
My idea is wdfw grow a pair and match the seasons with all the tribes in our state. That way when everything is gone, maybe the tribes will have a reason to come to the table, and yes, I'm 100% serious.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
thats probably the only way the problem would get fixed....
Post by: Maverick on June 24, 2021, 12:40:34 PM
I actually spend a ton of time predator hunting. You're an idiot if you think tribal hunting isn't an issue in the blues. They shot more bulls in there last year than we are even given permits for in the short seasons we have.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 24, 2021, 12:41:16 PM
Elk are native, they certainly existed at the time the Treaties were signed, and so my guess is people don't talk about it much because there is no legitimacy to suggest tribes shouldn't kill elk.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
Post by: johnbmyersii on June 24, 2021, 12:51:47 PM
Elk are native, they certainly existed at the time the Treaties were signed, and so my guess is people don't talk about it much because there is no legitimacy to suggest tribes shouldn't kill elk.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
Disregard, I had always known they were not originally native to central WA, not re-introduced per the below snippet from WDFW. Due to the supreme court decision from Herrera v. Wyoming, tribes do have hunting rights to re-introduced/recovered species
"Zooarchaeological evidence suggests elk historically inhabited the arid shrub steppe habitats of the
Columbia Basin, but were hunted to extinction by 1850 (McCorquodale 1985, Dixon and Lyman
1996). Elk were reintroduced to various locations throughout the state. In 1913, 50 elk from Montana
were released in the Naches River area of Yakima county, resulting in the reestablishment of the
Yakima herd (McCall 1997a). Additional transplants between 1913 - 1930 into the Blue Mountains
and the Colockum area resulted in the reestablishment of these major elk herds in eastern Washington
(Appendix E)."
Post by: Rainier10 on June 24, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
Good for you on the predator hunting.I actually spend a ton of time predator hunting. You're an idiot if you think tribal hunting isn't an issue in the blues. They shot more bulls in there last year than we are even given permits for in the short seasons we have.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
I'm an idiot? Interesting.
Post by: dvolmer on June 24, 2021, 01:16:27 PM
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 24, 2021, 01:30:51 PM
I actually spend a ton of time predator hunting. You're an idiot if you think tribal hunting isn't an issue in the blues. They shot more bulls in there last year than we are even given permits for in the short seasons we have.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
Where did Rainier10 say tribal harvest isn't an issue? Only thing I've read him saying that there is also non-tribal take that presents an issue and is a lot easier to address :dunno:
Post by: Rainier10 on June 24, 2021, 02:08:57 PM
It is great that people are passionate about their favorite herd, gmu or quarry but there is a bigger picture also. There are more herds, there are more gmu's and there are more animals than just deer and elk. I am sure there are a few GMU's where non native poaching far exceeds what the native take is and others where native harvest exceeds non native poaching. It goes both ways.
Post by: idaho guy on June 24, 2021, 03:18:18 PM
I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
:yeah: I have agreed with this for years. I dont think you need to give up elk or deer but if hunters would spend even equal time hunting predators it would make a world of difference. The plus is with all the pro predator groups pushing more and more on the landscape we could be living in the "good ole days" of predator hunting :chuckle: At this point in my hunting lifetime I spend more time hunting and trapping predators but still do a lot of deer and elk hunting. I think its just a mind set that alot of hunters grew up with to just hunt elk and deer. Hunt predators and bears and lions taste great :tup:
Post by: coachcw on June 25, 2021, 06:32:14 AM
Post by: Whitefoot on June 29, 2021, 11:29:21 AM
makes to great management , sure its there right . but what about all the other cuts and tax breaks that they get that they didn't before , time for things to be adjusted .
SMH!
Post by: trophyhunt on June 29, 2021, 02:08:06 PM
”SMH!” Is that how you feel about management ?makes to great management , sure its there right . but what about all the other cuts and tax breaks that they get that they didn't before , time for things to be adjusted .
SMH!
Post by: emac on June 29, 2021, 04:53:56 PM
You would have to add up permit numbers for probably 10 years to add up to what they take in a yearI actually spend a ton of time predator hunting. You're an idiot if you think tribal hunting isn't an issue in the blues. They shot more bulls in there last year than we are even given permits for in the short seasons we have.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
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Post by: emac on June 29, 2021, 04:55:58 PM
When were the treaties signed.Elk are native, they certainly existed at the time the Treaties were signed, and so my guess is people don't talk about it much because there is no legitimacy to suggest tribes shouldn't kill elk.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
I know elk were not native to the blues. They came on a train from Yellowstone.
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Post by: OutHouse on June 29, 2021, 05:18:27 PM
makes to great management , sure its there right . but what about all the other cuts and tax breaks that they get that they didn't before , time for things to be adjusted .
They try to "adjust" things all the time but when the government goes to court with the Yakamas they get beat like an old drum nearly every time. Government has buyer's remorse on the treaties.
Post by: Platensek-po on June 29, 2021, 05:34:10 PM
When were the treaties signed.Elk are native, they certainly existed at the time the Treaties were signed, and so my guess is people don't talk about it much because there is no legitimacy to suggest tribes shouldn't kill elk.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
I know elk were not native to the blues. They came on a train from Yellowstone.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Elk were 100% native to these areas. That they had been hunted till they were wiped out of those areas might be, but natives hunted elk in Washington for 14k years before that. Would be like saying bison aren’t native to Washington because they had been removed and never came back. They certainly are native. Remember most of these species went extinct due to over hunting and most of that over hunting was not done by the tribes.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 29, 2021, 05:36:46 PM
Precisely. I'm always amazed at the number of hunters who do not know this...or that think elk are not native. The fact they were hunted to near extinction (not by tribes) and were supplemented by yellowstone herds is often where the confusion appears to arise.When were the treaties signed.Elk are native, they certainly existed at the time the Treaties were signed, and so my guess is people don't talk about it much because there is no legitimacy to suggest tribes shouldn't kill elk.
One thing people never talk about and I'd like to have a better understanding of. The elk were introduced here in Kittitas county in the 1910s and 1920s for hunting, how can tribes claim tribal hunting rights to a species that is not native and people paid to introduce? Not saying its wrong they have the right, just wondering how is works since the elk are not native.
I know elk were not native to the blues. They came on a train from Yellowstone.
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Elk were 100% native to these areas. That they had been hunted till they were wiped out of those areas might be, but natives hunted elk in Washington for 14k years before that. Would be like saying bison aren’t native to Washington because they had been removed and never came back. They certainly are native. Remember most of these species went extinct due to over hunting and most of that over hunting was not done by the tribes.
Post by: idahohuntr on June 29, 2021, 05:41:08 PM
Depends on the specific case, but in a large number of major cases it is actually the United States stepping in on behalf of the Tribe to enforce their treaties on an errant state...like OR, WA, or more recently WY. Its not the Yakamas beating the 'government'...its the United States taking a belt to the States on behalf of the Yakamas (and other tribes).makes to great management , sure its there right . but what about all the other cuts and tax breaks that they get that they didn't before , time for things to be adjusted .
They try to "adjust" things all the time but when the government goes to court with the Yakamas they get beat like an old drum nearly every time. Government has buyer's remorse on the treaties.
Also...the US Congress has plenary power over tribes and can adjust any aspect of tribal treaties they want...Congress could terminate every tribal treaty tomorrow if they so desired.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 29, 2021, 06:38:42 PM
Are you adding up permit numbers to compare what predators take each year or the natives? I’m pretty sure if you look at predations numbers they will total more than the native harvest and we keep introducing new predators.You would have to add up permit numbers for probably 10 years to add up to what they take in a yearI actually spend a ton of time predator hunting. You're an idiot if you think tribal hunting isn't an issue in the blues. They shot more bulls in there last year than we are even given permits for in the short seasons we have.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
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Post by: OutHouse on June 30, 2021, 08:41:42 AM
Depends on the specific case, but in a large number of major cases it is actually the United States stepping in on behalf of the Tribe to enforce their treaties on an errant state...like OR, WA, or more recently WY. Its not the Yakamas beating the 'government'...its the United States taking a belt to the States on behalf of the Yakamas (and other tribes).makes to great management , sure its there right . but what about all the other cuts and tax breaks that they get that they didn't before , time for things to be adjusted .
They try to "adjust" things all the time but when the government goes to court with the Yakamas they get beat like an old drum nearly every time. Government has buyer's remorse on the treaties.
Also...the US Congress has plenary power over tribes and can adjust any aspect of tribal treaties they want...Congress could terminate every tribal treaty tomorrow if they so desired.
All of that's probably correct. I was just thinking from recollection over the years it seems like the Yakamas win a lot when they go to court.
Post by: Rainier10 on June 30, 2021, 08:53:57 AM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 30, 2021, 09:11:49 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 30, 2021, 10:02:20 AM
Post by: emac on June 30, 2021, 11:02:29 AM
I know that predators take more than tribal. That's all predators do is hunt 365. The tribal harvest in the blues is a big number though add that on top of predators and em surprised there are any elk left.Are you adding up permit numbers to compare what predators take each year or the natives? I’m pretty sure if you look at predations numbers they will total more than the native harvest and we keep introducing new predators.You would have to add up permit numbers for probably 10 years to add up to what they take in a yearI actually spend a ton of time predator hunting. You're an idiot if you think tribal hunting isn't an issue in the blues. They shot more bulls in there last year than we are even given permits for in the short seasons we have.I'm not joking at all. If everyone that had a moose tag this year passed the number of moose would go up as long as the habitat could handle it. I 100% believe that just as many elk are shot by poachers as by the few tribal members that shoot multiple elk. There are those tribal members that only shoot one a year and many tribal members that never shoot an elk. If we are comparing natives that overharvest and non natives that overharvest I am positive the non native over harvesters take way more animals.I don't think it is right but it is their right. (See what I did there?)
I will say that I think there is just as big of a problem from the non native side. I think if you stop illegal harvest by non natives you would see game numbers increase. Once we get people to follow the rules and seasons in place we can look at the abuse by tribal members exercising their rights.
I look at it this way. Everyone says our moose populations are hurting and yet every member on here that draws a moose tag this year is going to do everything they can to harvest a moose. Every permit holder last year and the year before did the same thing. Why? Because they had a tag, they had the right and they wanted to fill that tag, exercise that right before their were no more moose to hunt or the opportunity was taken away.
Our elk are in the same spot. Is it because of tribal overharvest or is it because everyone that has an OTC spike tag or special permit bull or cow tag this year is going to do their best to fill it? If people feel so strongly about the numbers of elk and moose we have don't fill your tag. People that are against hunting do it all the time. They buy tags they never intend to use. Control what you can. Right now there is nothing that you can do about tribal rights. ( I did it again)
You can control what you do, make the personal decision to not exercise your right to harvest an elk OTC or with that coveted special permit but don't hunt and then complain that someone else is exercising their right. Don't exercise yours and someone should exercise theirs less so you can enjoy yours more.
You're joking right? Are you seriously trying to compare tribal hunters having an open season on elk all year to a once in a lifetime moose tag? You really think more elk are poached by non natives then what natives shoot? The only thing you've said that I agree with is people will hunt because they can. Exactly why tribes need stricter seasons. It takes a non native years to draw a tag and a native can shoot big bulls every year. Non natives are restricted so we have elk to hunt for future generations. Doesn't work when another group of people slaughter them.
If you truly think our deer and elk are on life support quit hunting deer and elk. Spend your entire season shooting predators. You can kill two bears, one cougar and as many coyotes as you want in this state. If every hunter that thinks our deer and elk are on life support just took a couple years off hunting deer and elk and only shot predators we would have tons of wildlife.
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Post by: Rainier10 on June 30, 2021, 11:43:46 AM
Post by: gaddy on June 30, 2021, 11:47:05 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on June 30, 2021, 01:04:50 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on June 30, 2021, 02:54:05 PM
Post by: trophyhunt on June 30, 2021, 03:40:19 PM
Post by: hughjorgan on June 30, 2021, 07:09:09 PM
The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
Post by: trophyhunt on June 30, 2021, 07:23:36 PM
Well, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
Post by: emac on June 30, 2021, 07:38:42 PM
That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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Post by: Whitefoot on July 01, 2021, 08:42:27 AM
Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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Post by: hughjorgan on July 01, 2021, 08:56:46 AM
Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Post by: Whitefoot on July 01, 2021, 09:10:09 AM
Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Post by: hunter399 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:41 AM
All I'm gonna add isWould be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
+1 to the coliville tribe ,They do have Bag limits and season dates. And do pop a wolf now and again.
Post by: LongBomb on July 01, 2021, 10:01:01 AM
Post by: pianoman9701 on July 01, 2021, 10:03:55 AM
Post by: hughjorgan on July 01, 2021, 11:45:35 AM
Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Pretty sure we can all get on board with that
Post by: Taco280AI on July 01, 2021, 12:05:51 PM
Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Why aren't you? Why aren't all of you? You've paid attention to what has happened to the elk in Yellowstone? In northern Idaho?
Post by: B4noon on July 01, 2021, 12:35:46 PM
Post by: Tbar on July 01, 2021, 12:38:35 PM
No money in it on the wolf end the ones who tend to abuse and poach or over harvest in all user groups aren’t doing it cause their hungry it’s all about the money and when there is no market for a dead wolf those user groups will keep their attention where they can make a profit has zero to do with management same reason over harvest of elk is generally mature bulls not cause they eat better but there is a hell of a market on antlers.......,,,,, insert as desired.
Post by: Taco280AI on July 02, 2021, 06:25:32 AM
Post by: hunter399 on July 02, 2021, 07:15:42 AM
But I don't really know. :dunno: :dunno:
Post by: idaho guy on July 03, 2021, 12:59:13 PM
I thought a wolf pelt is like a gold bar..
But I don't really know. :dunno: :dunno:
They are not gold bars but they bring really good money
Post by: idaho guy on July 03, 2021, 01:04:05 PM
No money in it on the wolf end the ones who tend to abuse and poach or over harvest in all user groups aren’t doing it cause their hungry it’s all about the money and when there is no market for a dead wolf those user groups will keep their attention where they can make a profit has zero to do with management same reason over harvest of elk is generally mature bulls not cause they eat better but there is a hell of a market on antlers
They could make good money selling wolf hides and a few more dollars with skulls and as mentioned help the elk they hunt or over hunt. You should try and get an organization like Idaho where members could reimburse money spent for dead wolves to natives. They would be getting paid 2 ways but they could make good money just selling pelts.
Post by: idaho guy on July 03, 2021, 01:07:12 PM
Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
What would it take to get you and other tribal members to aggressively hunt wolves?
Post by: trophyhunt on July 03, 2021, 02:35:19 PM
Money!Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
What would it take to get you and other tribal members to aggressively hunt wolves?
Post by: pianoman9701 on July 03, 2021, 03:45:29 PM
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on July 03, 2021, 10:18:00 PM
Post by: Tbar on July 03, 2021, 10:21:48 PM
What was the harvest (elk) in the panhandle in 2000 vs 2020? I'm not a wolf advocate but there is truth in numbers.Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Why aren't you? Why aren't all of you? You've paid attention to what has happened to the elk in Yellowstone? In northern Idaho?
Post by: Tbar on July 03, 2021, 10:45:12 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 03, 2021, 10:49:10 PM
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 12:28:48 AM
What was the harvest (elk) in the panhandle in 2000 vs 2020? I'm not a wolf advocate but there is truth in numbers.Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Why aren't you? Why aren't all of you? You've paid attention to what has happened to the elk in Yellowstone? In northern Idaho?
realistic numbers would be early 90s to late 90’s bs about 2008-10 when we started actually being able to manage wolves. That would be accurate information based on few to no wolves and then wolves unmanaged for 10-15 years. 2000 would show harvest post unmanaged wolves vs 12 years of increasing wolf management. 2000 to 2020 harvest numbers is a very inaccurate time frame to measure wolf impact on elk hunting. Seasons have changed greatly as well and they created a bunch of 4-5 month long depredation tags for cows and a December muzzle season for cows. Both of those have very high success and a 4 month cow season should be 100 percent with very little effort. None of these existed till recently since the wolves pushed big herds down on to private. The only way to measure wolves impact on elk is to have been there from early 90’s till 2020. I have been looking at Idaho panhandle would be very smart for any state debating what wolves really do to elk herds. You can’t just pull some generic time frame and say hey! They are killing more elk! Nothing to worry about. Specifically certain units were dramatically impacted and some never got over run with wolves so the impact was less. If harvest stats are what you want to use the only accurate data would be to compare units with heavy wolves and look mid 90’s till about 2005-8 depending on area. You would also have to throw out stats from new tags created which should be almost 100 percent. Don’t oversimplify and just throw out numbers
Post by: Tbar on July 04, 2021, 12:44:00 AM
The generic timeframe is when idfg started tracking and publishing. Please provide the numbers you are referring to so we can better understand the impacts.What was the harvest (elk) in the panhandle in 2000 vs 2020? I'm not a wolf advocate but there is truth in numbers.Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Why aren't you? Why aren't all of you? You've paid attention to what has happened to the elk in Yellowstone? In northern Idaho?
realistic numbers would be early 90s to late 90’s bs about 2008-10 when we started actually being able to manage wolves. That would be accurate information based on few to no wolves and then wolves unmanaged for 10-15 years. 2000 would show harvest post unmanaged wolves vs 12 years of increasing wolf management. 2000 to 2020 harvest numbers is a very inaccurate time frame to measure wolf impact on elk hunting. Seasons have changed greatly as well and they created a bunch of 4-5 month long depredation tags for cows and a December muzzle season for cows. Both of those have very high success and a 4 month cow season should be 100 percent with very little effort. None of these existed till recently since the wolves pushed big herds down on to private. The only way to measure wolves impact on elk is to have been there from early 90’s till 2020. I have been looking at Idaho panhandle would be very smart for any state debating what wolves really do to elk herds. You can’t just pull some generic time frame and say hey! They are killing more elk! Nothing to worry about. Specifically certain units were dramatically impacted and some never got over run with wolves so the impact was less. If harvest stats are what you want to use the only accurate data would be to compare units with heavy wolves and look mid 90’s till about 2005-8 depending on area. You would also have to throw out stats from new tags created which should be almost 100 percent. Don’t oversimplify and just throw out numbers
Post by: hunter399 on July 04, 2021, 06:10:44 AM
You don't have to look in a book to tell elk numbers have been reduced in Idaho .The generic timeframe is when idfg started tracking and publishing. Please provide the numbers you are referring to so we can better understand the impacts.What was the harvest (elk) in the panhandle in 2000 vs 2020? I'm not a wolf advocate but there is truth in numbers.Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
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If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Why aren't you? Why aren't all of you? You've paid attention to what has happened to the elk in Yellowstone? In northern Idaho?
realistic numbers would be early 90s to late 90’s bs about 2008-10 when we started actually being able to manage wolves. That would be accurate information based on few to no wolves and then wolves unmanaged for 10-15 years. 2000 would show harvest post unmanaged wolves vs 12 years of increasing wolf management. 2000 to 2020 harvest numbers is a very inaccurate time frame to measure wolf impact on elk hunting. Seasons have changed greatly as well and they created a bunch of 4-5 month long depredation tags for cows and a December muzzle season for cows. Both of those have very high success and a 4 month cow season should be 100 percent with very little effort. None of these existed till recently since the wolves pushed big herds down on to private. The only way to measure wolves impact on elk is to have been there from early 90’s till 2020. I have been looking at Idaho panhandle would be very smart for any state debating what wolves really do to elk herds. You can’t just pull some generic time frame and say hey! They are killing more elk! Nothing to worry about. Specifically certain units were dramatically impacted and some never got over run with wolves so the impact was less. If harvest stats are what you want to use the only accurate data would be to compare units with heavy wolves and look mid 90’s till about 2005-8 depending on area. You would also have to throw out stats from new tags created which should be almost 100 percent. Don’t oversimplify and just throw out numbers
With that said ...............
Same thing happening here in Washington right now.
Certain people that do the deer and Elk counts let there emotion for wolves screw the counts.
Idaho has said that there wolf management plan calls for 150 wolves in 15 packs. They currently have over 1500 wolves. Brad little has started an all out war on wolves with the new hunting bill the governor has passed.
It's a proven fact in Idaho ,every year about 500 wolves are harvested by hunters,trappers ,ECT. And that's not enough.
When you have wolves in a habitat rich environment,there should be no limits on hunting,and trapping of wolves.
They are very similar to coyote ,Hunters will never kill enough to effect there population,or reintroduction. They are not an animal that's gonna stand there and let you shoot them 99% of the time.
According to Idaho fish and game numbers of Elk are stable and a small reduction in Elk are due to wolves.
At the same time hunting is big money in Idaho,there not gonna come out and tell you our elk herds are declining.
Don't come here and hunt. But you can tell there is a problem with wolves the way there currently and actively hunting,trapping,and paying contractors to kill wolves.
Idaho is sticking with 150 wolves and 15 packs is the number they came up with that,ranchers,Hunters,the game animals in the state would have little impact from wolves.
And still keep sustainable wolf population in there state.
The point of my run on sentences..........
Doesn't matter the elk and deer numbers.
Too many wolves,some need to go bye,bye.
You don't let wolves kill all the game before you take charge and do something.
Now I'll connect this to Washington........
There are more wolves in eastern Washington than what we are being told ,period.. Some mountain ranges,areas ,ECT,are worst than others .Sure areas that wolves are the prodominate predator ,mule deer,white tail,elk, are being wipe out,while other areas seem to be fine,or just slightly lower population. But with Washington they will continue to just let this continue. Washington will go with the "numbers" and by the time anything is done will be too late and a dollar short.Idaho says not gonna happen here.
Good for Idaho.👌
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 06:56:23 AM
The generic timeframe is when idfg started tracking and publishing. Please provide the numbers you are referring to so we can better understand the impacts.What was the harvest (elk) in the panhandle in 2000 vs 2020? I'm not a wolf advocate but there is truth in numbers.Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
Why aren't you? Why aren't all of you? You've paid attention to what has happened to the elk in Yellowstone? In northern Idaho?
realistic numbers would be early 90s to late 90’s bs about 2008-10 when we started actually being able to manage wolves. That would be accurate information based on few to no wolves and then wolves unmanaged for 10-15 years. 2000 would show harvest post unmanaged wolves vs 12 years of increasing wolf management. 2000 to 2020 harvest numbers is a very inaccurate time frame to measure wolf impact on elk hunting. Seasons have changed greatly as well and they created a bunch of 4-5 month long depredation tags for cows and a December muzzle season for cows. Both of those have very high success and a 4 month cow season should be 100 percent with very little effort. None of these existed till recently since the wolves pushed big herds down on to private. The only way to measure wolves impact on elk is to have been there from early 90’s till 2020. I have been looking at Idaho panhandle would be very smart for any state debating what wolves really do to elk herds. You can’t just pull some generic time frame and say hey! They are killing more elk! Nothing to worry about. Specifically certain units were dramatically impacted and some never got over run with wolves so the impact was less. If harvest stats are what you want to use the only accurate data would be to compare units with heavy wolves and look mid 90’s till about 2005-8 depending on area. You would also have to throw out stats from new tags created which should be almost 100 percent. Don’t oversimplify and just throw out numbers
It’s not when they started tracking or publishing. That’s what they might be publishing right now. I think our fish and game does a great job but they make money selling elk tags. Here is a few of timeline I suggested sepersted by unit. Notice the closer to ground zero for wolf reintroduction the greater the impact.
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 06:58:29 AM
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 07:00:39 AM
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 07:03:47 AM
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 07:05:11 AM
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 07:26:21 AM
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 07:41:11 AM
Money!Would be glad to.Ceded land is considered the rez and the rez is doing just fine.That's why the hunt off the rez because they have pretty much depleted the animals on the rezWell, zero limits on deer and elk to start with sounds like great management. And then ignore their own rules on selling meat, and then not reporting numbers to Wdfw. Just to name a few things that help w management. I have a feeling the hunting is better in the colockum, and the YTC, that’s a favorite spot for some.The Colville tribe is the example of management, the yakamas, how not to manage. I’ve always hoped the colville tribe would set a good example and the rest would follow. Maybe someday when the herd numbers get even worse??
Who’s to say the yakamas don’t manage well? I bet they have plenty of trophy class animals on the Rez since they seem to like to hunt off the Rez so much.
Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
If that’s the case why don’t you manage some of the wolves for us.
What would it take to get you and other tribal members to aggressively hunt wolves?
My buddy the taxi you met pays 500 for raw wolf pelt if it’s black. Other colors are worth around 500 tanned. That’s selling to a taxidermist who would need to do something with it and sell for a profit. I don’t know for me that’s good money? How much do they make selling jerky? Skinning and selling a wolf is a lot easier than making a bunch of jerky. Skulls could probably get another 25 to 100 bucks on top of pelt. All of them stupid unhunted Washington wolves sound like easy money too me
Post by: Tbar on July 04, 2021, 08:59:33 AM
I have the “data” for all Idaho units and it’s all pretty similar. The dates change as the wolves migrated to nee areas then you see the impact regionally. I have also looked up overall harvest from the idfg for those time frames and it obviously shows the same decline. 13 years of aggressive wolf management has helped a lot but it took a few years of hunting and trapping before we saw any benefits. There is a ton of information that all support the fact that wolves eat elk, the more wolves you have the less elk you will have. We don’t really need graphs and data to understand that do we ? Back to the topic I have no resentment against natives hunting because I don’t and never have hunted Washington. As a lover of elk I think it’s absurd that one user group has a year round unlimited season on a herd facing massive challenges(wolves,bears,lions) and I’m sure at least some loss of habitat. To ignore this fact and just focus on everything else is wrong. Can you change it? You won’t know if you don’t try. I already said it’s in the best interest of the tribe to have some reasonable regulations. It has nothing to do with taking away their rights but at least have some common sense. I think a lot of people don’t want to speak up because they fear not being politically correct. That b.s. the elk need a voiceFirst off thank you for the data. I only looked up what was quickly available and more specifically the panhandle. I'm not sure what is considered north Idaho. I also have talked in detail with idfg representatives. They said Selway and Lolo are hit the hardest but (according to them) most units in the state have adapted and elk hunting is stable. I agree that they are marketing and I can get the name of person I communicated with but he was very anti wolf.
As for regulations, tribes do have them. More specifically, I am not really quick to judge a tribe for having a year round season on bull elk and a 3 month season on cows when the state runs an arbitrary ad hoc season on cows from July 1st to March 31st with significant harvest and their main widget of success is dead cow elk. Now if I'm looking at herd drivers I'll advocate for the herd drivers (cows) and allow more liberal bull harvest. Switch gears and discuss priorities, agricultural business vs treaty rights, I would again advocate for a formal agreement in the treaty which is firmly backed by sticky VI paragraph 2. Like always there is considerably more than meets the eye and many minds will not change regardless of commitments to resource management by tribes. I also acknowledge the need for agribusiness in this state as well as it being a key component of treaty negotiation. Wildlife in general has not received a fair representation and we are definitely weighted to the detriment of wildlife in overarching comprehensive management schemes.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 04, 2021, 09:44:00 AM
I have the “data” for all Idaho units and it’s all pretty similar. The dates change as the wolves migrated to nee areas then you see the impact regionally. I have also looked up overall harvest from the idfg for those time frames and it obviously shows the same decline. 13 years of aggressive wolf management has helped a lot but it took a few years of hunting and trapping before we saw any benefits. There is a ton of information that all support the fact that wolves eat elk, the more wolves you have the less elk you will have. We don’t really need graphs and data to understand that do we ? Back to the topic I have no resentment against natives hunting because I don’t and never have hunted Washington. As a lover of elk I think it’s absurd that one user group has a year round unlimited season on a herd facing massive challenges(wolves,bears,lions) and I’m sure at least some loss of habitat. To ignore this fact and just focus on everything else is wrong. Can you change it? You won’t know if you don’t try. I already said it’s in the best interest of the tribe to have some reasonable regulations. It has nothing to do with taking away their rights but at least have some common sense. I think a lot of people don’t want to speak up because they fear not being politically correct. That b.s. the elk need a voicethank you for taking the time to post, you nailed it again, especially in your last paragraph ! The zero limits on deer and elk issue seems to always get deflected to an ignorance or taking away of tribal rights deal. The question remains, as it always has! How the F can you manage herds when certain people have ZERO management and NO limits. And if numbers and stats are so important, WHERE are the yakamas numbers?? And would they contain ANY factual info? I’ve said this a hundred times but I’ll say it again. Not all tribes are abusers and have no management, some do it well.
Post by: ribka on July 04, 2021, 10:28:09 AM
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanks
Lots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 04, 2021, 10:37:08 AM
Can you post the tribal harvest numbers for all tribes in Washington for deer and elk in WA? Can you post the units they were harvested in too and the ratio of 5x5 or larger bulls to spikes harvested and the percentage of 4x4 or larger bucks and the units harvested in? Just the last 25 years so as not to make it too time consuming. :chuckle:Excellent comment!! I may be going out on a limb here, but no way you will get that info!!!
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanksLots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 10:38:08 AM
I have the “data” for all Idaho units and it’s all pretty similar. The dates change as the wolves migrated to nee areas then you see the impact regionally. I have also looked up overall harvest from the idfg for those time frames and it obviously shows the same decline. 13 years of aggressive wolf management has helped a lot but it took a few years of hunting and trapping before we saw any benefits. There is a ton of information that all support the fact that wolves eat elk, the more wolves you have the less elk you will have. We don’t really need graphs and data to understand that do we ? Back to the topic I have no resentment against natives hunting because I don’t and never have hunted Washington. As a lover of elk I think it’s absurd that one user group has a year round unlimited season on a herd facing massive challenges(wolves,bears,lions) and I’m sure at least some loss of habitat. To ignore this fact and just focus on everything else is wrong. Can you change it? You won’t know if you don’t try. I already said it’s in the best interest of the tribe to have some reasonable regulations. It has nothing to do with taking away their rights but at least have some common sense. I think a lot of people don’t want to speak up because they fear not being politically correct. That b.s. the elk need a voiceFirst off thank you for the data. I only looked up what was quickly available and more specifically the panhandle. I'm not sure what is considered north Idaho. I also have talked in detail with idfg representatives. They said Selway and Lolo are hit the hardest but (according to them) most units in the state have adapted and elk hunting is stable. I agree that they are marketing and I can get the name of person I communicated with but he was very anti wolf.
As for regulations, tribes do have them. More specifically, I am not really quick to judge a tribe for having a year round season on bull elk and a 3 month season on cows when the state runs an arbitrary ad hoc season on cows from July 1st to March 31st with significant harvest and their main widget of success is dead cow elk. Now if I'm looking at herd drivers I'll advocate for the herd drivers (cows) and allow more liberal bull harvest. Switch gears and discuss priorities, agricultural business vs treaty rights, I would again advocate for a formal agreement in the treaty which is firmly backed by sticky VI paragraph 2. Like always there is considerably more than meets the eye and many minds will not change regardless of commitments to resource management by tribes. I also acknowledge the need for agribusiness in this state as well as it being a key component of treaty negotiation. Wildlife in general has not received a fair representation and we are definitely weighted to the detriment of wildlife in overarching comprehensive management schemes.
:tup: I agree with you on the ag depredation tags we definitely have that same scenario playing out in Idaho. 4 and 5 month cow tags don’t make sense but ironically the wolves made that situation way worse pushing big herds practically to town. Idfg will publish the most favorable data and make that most readily available after all they are in the business of selling tags to pay there salaries. I have no issues with that and respect greatly the job idfg is doing but they have to sell non- res tags.it is frustrating when people say “Idaho’s had wolves for 25 years and they are killing even more elk!!?” The anti hunters and pro wolves crowd twists that all the time and then tell us to “follow the data” but only there cherry picked data is good. The panhandle units have mostly stabilized but not everywhere and that’s after 13 years of aggressive management taking on average 400-500 wolves out each year. What would it look like if we had not taken out 5000-6000 wolves? It’s a good discussion and I appreciate where you are coming from especially with the ag depredation cow tags. I just get frustrated with the other side using cherry picked stats to promote the idea of high wolf populations existing with high elk populations. Like I said wolves eat elk, lots of elk, we don’t need graphs to understand that lots of wolves mean significant reductions in elk herds. Beware they will use that same data from idfg to prove Washington doesn’t need to aggressively manage wolves. They(center for biological diversity, defenders of wildlife etc etc) used those same charts to get wolves re introduced to Colorado. Idaho is doing good to great depending on the area, but I hate to see the same lies repeatedly used to screw other states just like they screwed Idaho. I think it’s important to look at Idaho using factual time frames and units so other states can have a counter argument. Repeating information put out in the best light possible is dangerous a lot can be learned from Idaho’s experience but you have to look at the facts not propaganda or “sales literature “. you make a lot of good points that I agree with. I’m a little over passionate about uncontrolled predators both the 4 legged and two legged varieties. I just love elk and passed on multiple legal cows last year (one in my back pasture) and a small bull. I have shot lots of cows but this particular herd seems to have been hit hard by depredation tags down low and wolves up high. I love big horns but am probably a meat hunter at heart. I would think the tribe would have the same feelings about the elk herds so I think people need to speak up about unlimited hunting and then conservation. I guess I think they would come to the table especially if it was done in conjunction with ag depredation tags as I think you suggested.mix that discussion with predator control, habitat and stiffer prosecutions of non native poaching and you could come up with a plan addressing ALL the issues. I think the tribe would be KEY in controlling predators as liberals won’t speak against them because of their overwhelming fear of appearing politically incorrect. Thanks for the discussion and sorry for the long winded response trying to put off a fencing job this morning 😂 You can fight for what we’re once iconic elk herds or say screw it and come hunt Idaho 😂
Post by: dvolmer on July 04, 2021, 10:40:43 AM
Can you post the tribal harvest numbers for all tribes in Washington for deer and elk in WA? Can you post the units they were harvested in too and the ratio of 5x5 or larger bulls to spikes harvested and the percentage of 4x4 or larger bucks and the units harvested in? Just the last 25 years so as not to make it too time consuming. :chuckle:Excellent comment!! I may be going out on a limb here, but no way you will get that info!!!
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanksLots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
They dont have that information to give. They dont require it of their members.
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 10:47:06 AM
I have the “data” for all Idaho units and it’s all pretty similar. The dates change as the wolves migrated to nee areas then you see the impact regionally. I have also looked up overall harvest from the idfg for those time frames and it obviously shows the same decline. 13 years of aggressive wolf management has helped a lot but it took a few years of hunting and trapping before we saw any benefits. There is a ton of information that all support the fact that wolves eat elk, the more wolves you have the less elk you will have. We don’t really need graphs and data to understand that do we ? Back to the topic I have no resentment against natives hunting because I don’t and never have hunted Washington. As a lover of elk I think it’s absurd that one user group has a year round unlimited season on a herd facing massive challenges(wolves,bears,lions) and I’m sure at least some loss of habitat. To ignore this fact and just focus on everything else is wrong. Can you change it? You won’t know if you don’t try. I already said it’s in the best interest of the tribe to have some reasonable regulations. It has nothing to do with taking away their rights but at least have some common sense. I think a lot of people don’t want to speak up because they fear not being politically correct. That b.s. the elk need a voicethank you for taking the time to post, you nailed it again, especially in your last paragraph ! The zero limits on deer and elk issue seems to always get deflected to an ignorance or taking away of tribal rights deal. The question remains, as it always has! How the F can you manage herds when certain people have ZERO management and NO limits. And if numbers and stats are so important, WHERE are the yakamas numbers?? And would they contain ANY factual info? I’ve said this a hundred times but I’ll say it again. Not all tribes are abusers and have no management, some do it well.
Seems like common sense but what do we know :chuckle: :dunno:
Post by: bobdog86 on July 04, 2021, 06:54:20 PM
Can you post the tribal harvest numbers for all tribes in Washington for deer and elk in WA? Can you post the units they were harvested in too and the ratio of 5x5 or larger bulls to spikes harvested and the percentage of 4x4 or larger bucks and the units harvested in? Just the last 25 years so as not to make it too time consuming. :chuckle:
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanksLots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
You cant just focus on Washington tribes….the Nez Perce, located in Idaho, harvest at will in the Southeast portion of the Blue Mountains, without fear of anything. You will never get any data or cooperation from them, as long as things remain status quo. I mentioned before, it’s not just Washington tribes. The Nez Perce put a serious smack down on the elk in the Blues.
Post by: idaho guy on July 04, 2021, 10:11:44 PM
Can you post the tribal harvest numbers for all tribes in Washington for deer and elk in WA? Can you post the units they were harvested in too and the ratio of 5x5 or larger bulls to spikes harvested and the percentage of 4x4 or larger bucks and the units harvested in? Just the last 25 years so as not to make it too time consuming. :chuckle:
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanksLots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
You cant just focus on Washington tribes….the Nez Perce, located in Idaho, harvest at will in the Southeast portion of the Blue Mountains, without fear of anything. You will never get any data or cooperation from them, as long as things remain status quo. I mentioned before, it’s not just Washington tribes. The Nez Perce put a serious smack down on the elk in the Blues.
100 percent they might be the worst. The only good thing is there a small number that I know of. I know of a couple and it’s ridiculous what they can do down there.
Post by: Caseyd on July 05, 2021, 02:23:19 AM
Lots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Why aren’t damage prevention permits any bull then?
Post by: hunter399 on July 05, 2021, 07:37:35 AM
Shooting Bulls and Bucks is the standard for most management plans.Lots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Why aren’t damage prevention permits any bull then?
I'm not real impressed with the "Standard" from WDFW these days.
Do you want sustainable populations?
Do you want to see how low the numbers can go?
Do you want future generations to be able to hunt?
Or do you want to grow a herd,
Do you want to raise population.
Maybe I'm just greedy.
But sustainable and the standard are not cutting the mustard for me.
In order to grow a herd,or raise population,the standard mangement plans need to go in the round file.
Alot of what I'm saying apply to deer as well.
Post by: idahohuntr on July 06, 2021, 10:57:24 PM
Because the intent often times with crop/damage permits is to reduce herd size...which is most effective through female harvest...not males.Lots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Why aren’t damage prevention permits any bull then?
Post by: hunter399 on July 07, 2021, 08:14:52 AM
Damage permits are a double edge sword.Because the intent often times with crop/damage permits is to reduce herd size...which is most effective through female harvest...not males.Lots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Why aren’t damage prevention permits any bull then?
Most property owners want the damage stoped.
So reduced herd is really the only option.
Post by: Platensek-po on July 07, 2021, 10:04:06 AM
Damage permits are a double edge sword.Because the intent often times with crop/damage permits is to reduce herd size...which is most effective through female harvest...not males.Lots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
Why aren’t damage prevention permits any bull then?
Most property owners want the damage stoped.
So reduced herd is really the only option.
If this is true then it would seem that AG is a problem in having larger herds. Historically elk were plains animals that roamed in huge herds. We are seeing them revert to this behavior and it’s the reintroduction of wolves. They get out of the trees and into the open. That open land is usually full of ranches and ag now. It’s tough to balance all sides of the equation. I understand ranchers need to live as well but they are also the main reason we can’t have wild herds of bison on the landscape. We need vegetables but elk, sheep and deer need winter forage. So many pieces to this. Ranchers, Ag, natives, hunters, predators, state management or lack thereof, logging and pesticide spraying, and lots more I’m sure.
Post by: ribka on July 07, 2021, 10:19:27 AM
Can you post the tribal harvest numbers for all tribes in Washington for deer and elk in WA? Can you post the units they were harvested in too and the ratio of 5x5 or larger bulls to spikes harvested and the percentage of 4x4 or larger bucks and the units harvested in? Just the last 25 years so as not to make it too time consuming. :chuckle:Excellent comment!! I may be going out on a limb here, but no way you will get that info!!!
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanksLots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
They dont have that information to give. They dont require it of their members.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 10:40:45 AM
I always chuckle when someone, who has no clue, throws in some platitude about tribes and wildlife management. Of course they don't and never will collect data as they could care less about healthy deer and elk herds. Please prove wrong with some actual data. This includes all of the tribes in the state. Just like not caring about salmon stocks when they place nets accross spawning rivers.I have seen the report for a bunch of tribes collectively in this state and it is broken down by tribe. It is not mine to share but I assure you it exists and there are over 20 tribes in this state that do track this information.Can you post the tribal harvest numbers for all tribes in Washington for deer and elk in WA? Can you post the units they were harvested in too and the ratio of 5x5 or larger bulls to spikes harvested and the percentage of 4x4 or larger bucks and the units harvested in? Just the last 25 years so as not to make it too time consuming. :chuckle:Excellent comment!! I may be going out on a limb here, but no way you will get that info!!!
Im sure since the tribes have such a vested interest in a healthy ungulate populations( as you stated in your post) they keep better records than WDFW. Do they examine teeth too for age determination?
Can you post a 25 year graph of the Yakama and Puyallup tribal harvest spefically from the Yakama elk herd the past 25 years as you stated they had no affect on herd numbers. Can you post a graph of tribal permits issued too. Im curious where on the Yakama Rez do they register their harvests? Is it done online? How many hunting violations have the tribal game wardens issued the past 10 years to tribal members?
I would be interested in the tribal harvest data from the Blues elk and deer herds too.
thanksLots of internet knowledge that perpetuates the divide. Many in this thread wouldn't know an ally simply because they are closed minded and at times ignorant. The tribes have a vested interest in strong ungulate herds and work diligently to achieve this. Also if its about strong herd numbers, male preference in harvest is always preferable, period. Any bull, whether its a 100 inch bull or 400 inch bull, is a better choice for herd growth than a cow. Also the spike harvest strategy employed by the wdfw is a choice which roots much of the jealousy spewed in these threads. There are many different harvest strategies that can accomplish biological minimums to achieve pregnancy rates that promote stable herds. The true issue is predators as well as agricultural influence which not only competes for prime habitat but also has a dedicated section with significant harvest throughout the state. It was less than a decade ago when the Yakima herd was growing at an unsustainable rate according to wdfw, only two things have changed, damage section was created and predators remained unchecked. Tribal harvest has been static to decreasing to the best of my knowledge. I do not claim to know what all tribes harvest but I do have a limited knowledge of harvest numbers.
They dont have that information to give. They dont require it of their members.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 07, 2021, 10:46:21 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 11:08:42 AM
Why wouldn’t you show us? I’m sure a tribal member gave it to you, but why hid it, that only gives the feeling that there is something to hide? But, I bet there is no info from the yakamas, at least accurate info. And I agree, non tribal info isn’t always truthful either, but I’d bet it’s close.It's called trust, they trusted me with the information and asked me not to share. By the tone of this thread it is obvious that there are those that will not be satisfied no matter what you bring to the table.
You are correct there is no information from the Yakama's in the report but to say that no tribes track that information is incorrect. There are people on here painted the tribes in a bad light because of one or two tribes and actually just a few members in those tribes.
Tribal members have actually chimed in on this thread and get blasted as soon as they do. I wouldn't share a darn thing with this forum if I was a tribe member because of the hammering they get when they try to explain their side.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 07, 2021, 11:11:17 AM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 11:57:14 AM
I’m good with the trust deal, I get that. But the info must not back up their debate if they don’t want us to see it, that’s all I’m saying. Not trying to bash you at all.It does actually back it up. Most tribes are not abusing. I would even venture to say that most members of the tribes that are not reporting probably aren't abusing but there are always a few bad apples. Non natives have the same problem. I would say the majority of non native hunters don't poach but the very few that do poach take a ton of animals.
The complaint here is tribes don't report and I am here to tell you they do. Not all of them but most of them.
The problem with this forum is you get guys saying "they don't report, if they reported that would be a step in the right direction." I come on here and say they do report and I have seen the report. First reply, "prove it". Next reply is the report must not back up their debate if they won't show it. It is never good enough and you end up down a rabbit hole.
The tribes that don't report we have no idea what they harvest but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that the majority of the tribal members in the tribes that don't report don't harvest nearly as many animals as a few members of that tribe.
WDFW will tell you the same thing about non native harvest. For every animal taken legal by a hunter there is at least or more taken illegally. That tells me that the majority of our hunters are doing it right and very select few are taking more than their fair share.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Get your own house in order before you start complaining about someone else's.
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 12:00:13 PM
https://www.stillaguamish.com/natural-resources/wildlife-program/
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 12:00:58 PM
https://www.stillaguamish.com/natural-resources/enforcement/
Post by: trophyhunt on July 07, 2021, 12:02:45 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 12:10:28 PM
I always chuckle when someone, who has no clue, throws in some platitude about tribes and wildlife management. Of course they don't and never will collect data as they could care less about healthy deer and elk herds. Please prove wrong with some actual data. This includes all of the tribes in the state. Just like not caring about salmon stocks when they place nets accross spawning rivers.
Pretty broad paint brush here if you read this post.
Post by: trophyhunt on July 07, 2021, 12:17:30 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on July 07, 2021, 12:38:56 PM
Well, this started out talking about the clockum area. Nobody had any complaints with the Stillaguamish, looks like they have their ducks in a row, nice to see.Did you read the bold in the post I just quoted? "Nobody has any complaints with the Stillaguamish" you say?Do you see anything excluding the Stillaguamish from the "this includes all tribes"?
Here it is again.
I always chuckle when someone, who has no clue, throws in some platitude about tribes and wildlife management. Of course they don't and never will collect data as they could care less about healthy deer and elk herds. Please prove wrong with some actual data. This includes all of the tribes in the state. Just like not caring about salmon stocks when they place nets accross spawning rivers.
Pretty broad paint brush here if you read this post.
Look man I get it but people start painting with such a broad brush because of select few in a select few tribes the message gets lost and you lose your audience.