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Title: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 17, 2022, 02:59:50 PM
Haven’t seen this discussion here?
I think it the is dumbest idea to cross Inlee and Murrays feeble minds.
How do you justify removing 1000 megawatts of power from the grid
And still push for electric cars
At a cost of ~30 billion to replace the black out hole?
Not to mention the irrigation and transportation of 1/3 of this states agriculture crops to market,
Don’t forget Idaho also!
All with the reasoning of saving the Puget Sound Orcas,
Those fish don’t swim here, stupid a**es

Edit: I fish the Snake at least once a year out of Heller Bar,
Catch tons of fish

Rant over
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Rainier10 on June 17, 2022, 03:18:54 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,271692.msg3688134/topicseen.html#new

Over in the political board.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 17, 2022, 04:03:29 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,271692.msg3688134/topicseen.html#new

Over in the political board.
Appears I’m not allowed there?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Bob33 on June 17, 2022, 04:34:05 PM
https://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,271692.msg3688134/topicseen.html#new

Over in the political board.
Appears I’m not allowed there?
Membership is optional.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: MeepDog on June 17, 2022, 05:40:39 PM
The politics can be ignored for this topic. 1000Mw isn't that crazy. Columbia Generating Station on the hanford site puts out 1200MW on its own and has a tiny footprint. Those dams are suffocating that river and have turned the river into prime habitat for the warm water invasive species. The real issue is that grain farmers have gotten used to easy irrigation and barges to ship their produce for cheap. On top of all that, the built up sediment at the base of the dams could choke the river if released all at once. Do I still think we should do it? Heck yeah. The snake should flow like the Hanford reach not stagnate in big pools.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on June 17, 2022, 06:17:40 PM
The politics can be ignored for this topic. 1000Mw isn't that crazy. Columbia Generating Station on the hanford site puts out 1200MW on its own and has a tiny footprint. Those dams are suffocating that river and have turned the river into prime habitat for the warm water invasive species. The real issue is that grain farmers have gotten used to easy irrigation and barges to ship their produce for cheap. On top of all that, the built up sediment at the base of the dams could choke the river if released all at once. Do I still think we should do it? Heck yeah. The snake should flow like the Hanford reach not stagnate in big pools.

So our energy costs can soar.🤬

https://www.synapse-energy.com/sites/default/files/SynapsePaper.2008-07.0.Nuclear-Plant-Construction-Costs.A0022_0.pdf
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 17, 2022, 07:55:17 PM
The politics can be ignored for this topic. 1000Mw isn't that crazy. Columbia Generating Station on the hanford site puts out 1200MW on its own and has a tiny footprint. Those dams are suffocating that river and have turned the river into prime habitat for the warm water invasive species. The real issue is that grain farmers have gotten used to easy irrigation and barges to ship their produce for cheap. On top of all that, the built up sediment at the base of the dams could choke the river if released all at once. Do I still think we should do it? Heck yeah. The snake should flow like the Hanford reach not stagnate in big pools.

Let’s go Brandon!!!!!
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 17, 2022, 08:13:45 PM
It's sounding like the hydroelectric reservoirs in a few parts of the country are getting so low that they may go off line.  That electricity will have to be replaced by another source.  I'm guessing there could be some electricity shuffled around this summer.  How much will rates go up?  Anything noticeable and most people will tell the salmon and orcas to just pound sand.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Sandberm on June 17, 2022, 08:15:12 PM
The politics can be ignored for this topic. 1000Mw isn't that crazy. Columbia Generating Station on the hanford site puts out 1200MW on its own and has a tiny footprint. Those dams are suffocating that river and have turned the river into prime habitat for the warm water invasive species. The real issue is that grain farmers have gotten used to easy irrigation and barges to ship their produce for cheap. On top of all that, the built up sediment at the base of the dams could choke the river if released all at once. Do I still think we should do it? Heck yeah. The snake should flow like the Hanford reach not stagnate in big pools.

It doesnt bother you about losing 8% of our states power production?

You mention the Nuke plant at Handford and the huge amount of power it makes, I AGREE, THATS GREAT!...problem is... the powers that be have already determined that when that plants worn out they wont build another nuke plant, too expensive.

How do you feel about the whole horse heaven skyline being dotted with windmills?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 17, 2022, 08:24:47 PM
The simple fact that people think that the salmon population is more important than the recreation, transportation, power, irrigation and other benefits of the damn is absolutely mind boggling to me.

How about these lazy liberal f$cks address the predators that are hammering the salmon?

Stupid liberals.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: HunterStrait on June 17, 2022, 09:08:26 PM
Are salmon and steelhead no longer important?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 17, 2022, 09:35:16 PM
Plenty important; the dams are just far more important than those giant stocked trout.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Jonathan_S on June 17, 2022, 09:44:02 PM
The simple fact that people think that the salmon population is more important than the recreation, transportation, power, irrigation and other benefits of the damn is absolutely mind boggling to me.

How about these lazy liberal f$cks address the predators that are hammering the salmon?

Stupid liberals.

"Stupid liberals" is one thing but in the interest of an honest conversation...

1) The sockeye are native and are probably only several generations from extinction.

2) the smolt of the fish that go all the way up the Snake River just spend too much time in slow waters to sustain populations.

Here is how I think of it: will the dams be necessary in 1000 years? 100 years? 30? If the answer to any of those is not "yes", why is it so wrong to talk about it now?

Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Sandberm on June 17, 2022, 09:52:37 PM
Why not rip out Bonneville, Jon Day, TheDalles and McNary first? Fish gotta swim through those first before they get to the Snake river.

How about we get rid of the nets up and down that section of the columbia too? Seems a bit easier to try that first.

All those windmills by Goldendale and along the horse heavens...they only work in concert WITH dams, not instead of them.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 17, 2022, 10:32:06 PM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Rutnbuxnbulls on June 18, 2022, 06:17:26 AM

I have tried to copy and paste a video of the Elwha Dam Removal. It was deemed a success on many levels, salmon and steelhead recovery and estuary health.

Maybe if they came up with a way to generate the equivalent amount of power and actually implemented it before the dams were removed it would be okay to remove the Snake Dams? Not an expert on the subject but obviously we need good shipping for wheat and ag, trains and trucks gonna do the job?

We have to see the whole picture though too. These fish don’t just create a recreational source for fishermen. They provide streamside habitat upriver when they die, shedding necessary nutrients for plants to grow along the streams. Deer, Elk etc benefit. A free flowing river also creates a habitat that is beautiful and healthier for many species. I see both sides of the issue so I’m going on the  fence about it.

I want more fish and cheap power too! Damn these Dams
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Bareback on June 18, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
Society is 10 years behind the green energy plan. If this state is to meet Dimslees 2030 plan he best get moving. The infrastructure to support such an idea is beyond massive. Charging stations need to be  installed at all state and federal properties, yesterday. Replacing petro with electric will require 10X in power generation. The only way to provide that is with nuclear.

The problem with Dems/liberal is they can’t see past their nose. They have all the solutions but absolutely zero awareness of the financial implications of such proposals, timelines or actually implementing any of them. It’s a party of feel gooders. They pass laws that make them feel good but never enforce them. Everyone gets a trophy………. For accomplishing nothing.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: MR5x5 on June 18, 2022, 07:42:28 AM
Society is 10 years behind the green energy plan. If this state is to meet Dimslees 2030 plan he best get moving. The infrastructure to support such an idea is beyond massive. Charging stations need to be  installed at all state and federal properties, yesterday. Replacing petro with electric will require 10X in power generation. The only way to provide that is with nuclear.

The problem with Dems/liberal is they can’t see past their nose. They have all the solutions but absolutely zero awareness of the financial implications of such proposals, timelines or actually implementing any of them. It’s a party of feel gooders. They pass laws that make them feel good but never enforce them. Everyone gets a trophy………. For accomplishing nothing.

This.

Show me a viable plan to consider and maybe I can get behind it.  But "tear it out then figure it out" is a non starter for me.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: NW SURVEYOR on June 18, 2022, 08:19:07 AM
Read the book "Cadillac Desert".
Written/read years ago.
It sheds a lot of light on the damming of the western rivers.

Another good read is "A tale of two rivers" which compares the health of the Columbia vs Frazier systems.
The Frazier had no dams and a robust steelhead and salmon population while the Columbia was/is suffering.
Both rivers drain about the same amount of real estate and share other similarities.

One more interesting read is "Return to the river" by Roderick Haig Brown.
Written in the 1940s I believe and reads like it was written last week.

Everyone that is opposed to dam removal should read these and then perhaps repost your opinions.
Being a card-carrying Republican, I can honestly say, the LIBERALS are not entirely the problem.
We do need to find alternatives for power before removing said dams, but we do need to have the conversation now.

My two cents.

Carry on.
Rob.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: nwwanderer on June 18, 2022, 08:36:30 AM
We need a thriving economy to get where we are going, the current situation only slows or may completely stop that progress.  When food is produced where it consumed, planet wide, and technology produces the power we need locally the dams will be obsolete.  Open field agriculture on the current scales will come to an end, yes you could have 20,000,000 bison again.  This is quite a ways out, 50 to 100 years is often quoted.  Is it 200 or 500 years out if we head down rabbit holes like removing the dams today?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: JimmyHoffa on June 18, 2022, 08:41:59 AM

I have tried to copy and paste a video of the Elwha Dam Removal. It was deemed a success on many levels, salmon and steelhead recovery and estuary health.

Maybe if they came up with a way to generate the equivalent amount of power and actually implemented it before the dams were removed it would be okay to remove the Snake Dams? Not an expert on the subject but obviously we need good shipping for wheat and ag, trains and trucks gonna do the job?

We have to see the whole picture though too. These fish don’t just create a recreational source for fishermen. They provide streamside habitat upriver when they die, shedding necessary nutrients for plants to grow along the streams. Deer, Elk etc benefit. A free flowing river also creates a habitat that is beautiful and healthier for many species. I see both sides of the issue so I’m going on the  fence about it.

I want more fish and cheap power too! Damn these Dams
Elwha is a real mixed bag.  They have a few redds above the old dam sites and some colonizing off main branches, but not nearly in the numbers that the park was selling pre-removal.  The estuary rebuild and smelt increase were a plus and ahead of predictions.  For salmon, I think over 80% of the returns are still hatchery fish.  This bugs a few of the bios that wanted it to be a giant lab to see how nature could recover without help.  The river was closed to fishing just before the dams came down and only supposed to last five years, but twelve years later still closed (for any fish, unless your in the tribe) because it hasn't met the expectations.  First dam was out of the way in 2012, second in 2014.
Some of the other problems have been that the main bridge over the river was damaged by flooding and is being replaced, the water supply for Port Angeles has to come from the river instead of the reservoirs--so there are water restrictions in summer now, no close-by lake for all the kids to go to in summer and when the river eroded the roads in the park, the legal issues to rebuild the road have really impacted the local economy that was supposed to get a big boost when turning toward 'green/tourism/sustainable' jobs.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: MeepDog on June 18, 2022, 09:03:52 AM
The politics can be ignored for this topic. 1000Mw isn't that crazy. Columbia Generating Station on the hanford site puts out 1200MW on its own and has a tiny footprint. Those dams are suffocating that river and have turned the river into prime habitat for the warm water invasive species. The real issue is that grain farmers have gotten used to easy irrigation and barges to ship their produce for cheap. On top of all that, the built up sediment at the base of the dams could choke the river if released all at once. Do I still think we should do it? Heck yeah. The snake should flow like the Hanford reach not stagnate in big pools.

It doesnt bother you about losing 8% of our states power production?

You mention the Nuke plant at Handford and the huge amount of power it makes, I AGREE, THATS GREAT!...problem is... the powers that be have already determined that when that plants worn out they wont build another nuke plant, too expensive.

How do you feel about the whole horse heaven skyline being dotted with windmills?
They're going to build 2 Small Modular Reactors by X Energy on that site. If I remember right they're 200MW each but I could be wrong about that. Too expensive isn't even on the table when you're talking large scale power production. Those 4 dams could be replaced on the grid for less than it costs to remove them.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: MeepDog on June 18, 2022, 09:10:31 AM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: idahohuntr on June 18, 2022, 09:21:21 AM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.
When do these run of river dams/pools not have current?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: MeepDog on June 18, 2022, 09:37:24 AM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.
When do these run of river dams/pools not have current?
There's a reason above the dam is named "lake wallula" or "lake celilo". Look at the healthiest part of the columbia river: the Hanford reach. The entire river is affected by the current. Above those dams you may as well be sitting in your backyard swimming pool because the wind pushes you more than any current.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 09:55:53 AM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

I’m glad we got that out of the way!!!!
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: timberfaller on June 18, 2022, 11:24:53 AM

I have tried to copy and paste a video of the Elwha Dam Removal. It was deemed a success on many levels, salmon and steelhead recovery and estuary health.

Maybe if they came up with a way to generate the equivalent amount of power and actually implemented it before the dams were removed it would be okay to remove the Snake Dams? Not an expert on the subject but obviously we need good shipping for wheat and ag, trains and trucks gonna do the job?

We have to see the whole picture though too. These fish don’t just create a recreational source for fishermen. They provide streamside habitat upriver when they die, shedding necessary nutrients for plants to grow along the streams. Deer, Elk etc benefit. A free flowing river also creates a habitat that is beautiful and healthier for many species. I see both sides of the issue so I’m going on the  fence about it.

I want more fish and cheap power too! Damn these Dams
Elwha is a real mixed bag.  They have a few redds above the old dam sites and some colonizing off main branches, but not nearly in the numbers that the park was selling pre-removal.  The estuary rebuild and smelt increase were a plus and ahead of predictions.  For salmon, I think over 80% of the returns are still hatchery fish.  This bugs a few of the bios that wanted it to be a giant lab to see how nature could recover without help.  The river was closed to fishing just before the dams came down and only supposed to last five years, but twelve years later still closed (for any fish, unless your in the tribe) because it hasn't met the expectations.  First dam was out of the way in 2012, second in 2014.
Some of the other problems have been that the main bridge over the river was damaged by flooding and is being replaced, the water supply for Port Angeles has to come from the river instead of the reservoirs--so there are water restrictions in summer now, no close-by lake for all the kids to go to in summer and when the river eroded the roads in the park, the legal issues to rebuild the road have really impacted the local economy that was supposed to get a big boost when turning toward 'green/tourism/sustainable' jobs.

LOL, the same thing can be said for the Methow Valley!!  "we have to pipe the ditches so more water will be in the river when the salmon need it most".  The "egregious people" of the Methow are thieves according to the Feds!!  Didn't happen, ALL these clowns succeeded in doing was destroy all the "green belts" the open ditches created over the many decades.  Didn't improve the salmon runs one bit.   We will all see now, that the Tribes have been given land back to them, what will happen next.  One thing that was very evident during the "water war" the Tribes can TELL the Feds what they will DO and what they CAN'T do!! and they JUMP!
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: idahohuntr on June 18, 2022, 11:28:49 AM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.
When do these run of river dams/pools not have current?
There's a reason above the dam is named "lake wallula" or "lake celilo". Look at the healthiest part of the columbia river: the Hanford reach. The entire river is affected by the current. Above those dams you may as well be sitting in your backyard swimming pool because the wind pushes you more than any current.
So if I was in a boat behind one of the lower snake dams today, last week, last month and the wind wasnt blowing I'd just sit in one place?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 11:32:12 AM
Correct. If the spill gates are all the way closed and no water is spilling over.
Which never happens.

Must be magic.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: idahohuntr on June 18, 2022, 11:37:43 AM
Correct. If the spill gates are all the way closed and no water is spilling over.
Which never happens.
 :chuckle:


Must be magic.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 12:33:17 PM
Who remembers the Great Drawdown of 1992??????

That worked out well!!!!!!!!

Brain dead clowns!!!!
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jackelope on June 18, 2022, 01:20:13 PM
Who remembers the Great Drawdown of 1992??????

That worked out well!!!!!!!!

Brain dead clowns!!!!

Tell us how you really feel!!
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: MeepDog on June 18, 2022, 01:43:59 PM
Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.
The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

I’m glad we got that out of the way!!!!
^Said the salmon after the dam was removed
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 01:54:43 PM
@Jackelope

I can’t, because you’ll ban me!!!
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: LDennis24 on June 18, 2022, 02:58:51 PM
Can one of you guys show me a map or something showing the irrigation the four lower Snake River dams provide? I've worked at all of them and don't recall any irrigation systems. The draw down in 1992 was a joke also. I have read about it and it was a joke. The concrete was still there as an impediment to the fish. So the concrete is actually killing the salmon. The current was the only improvement the draw down provided that I can find. They were more interested in the settling of grain terminal foundations and how the dams would run with minimal water flows coming through the turbines, etc. It was never about truly seeing how it benefited the salmon. I have hauled fertilizer to plenty of different farmers while working for The McGregor Company. I also ran a grain terminal for four years including loading trains that went to the river and to Portland. Farming isn't as difficult as it was fifty years ago. Now days it's a damn easy job and half the year farmers do nothing but play and come into town to golf. I know, I live on the Palouse around them and see their lifestyle every day. Some don't even do their own maintenance and repair. The only real argument for not breaching the dams is the cost of producing energy. None of the other arguments are valid and are complete BS. As a farmer you might have to slow down on the two cases a day of Keystone and the forty gallons a day of diesel you spend driving around screwing off and you'll be alright. Or figure out how to work on your own equipment like farmers used to do. There are plenty of exceptions and not all farmers operate this way but plenty of them do and I don't feel sorry for them at all.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Sandberm on June 18, 2022, 03:09:19 PM
Oh boy!

Dennis brought his gas can an matches to the thread
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 03:16:44 PM
What will we do with barges?

The intake for the canals, and irrigation inlets aren’t at the dams. Go drive highways 730 and 14 and tell me how those farms will continue?  You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of irrigated farmland.  Vineyards, corn, spuds, etc.

The economic impact dam removal would have is unthinkable.

I’m not a farmer, can’t speak to their keystone drinking habits, they should probably try Busch Light.


All of this for a big, hatchery raised trout????



Just a few thoughts.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jackelope on June 18, 2022, 03:53:46 PM
Can one of you guys show me a map or something showing the irrigation the four lower Snake River dams provide? I've worked at all of them and don't recall any irrigation systems. The draw down in 1992 was a joke also. I have read about it and it was a joke. The concrete was still there as an impediment to the fish. So the concrete is actually killing the salmon. The current was the only improvement the draw down provided that I can find. They were more interested in the settling of grain terminal foundations and how the dams would run with minimal water flows coming through the turbines, etc. It was never about truly seeing how it benefited the salmon. I have hauled fertilizer to plenty of different farmers while working for The McGregor Company. I also ran a grain terminal for four years including loading trains that went to the river and to Portland. Farming isn't as difficult as it was fifty years ago. Now days it's a damn easy job and half the year farmers do nothing but play and come into town to golf. I know, I live on the Palouse around them and see their lifestyle every day. Some don't even do their own maintenance and repair. The only real argument for not breaching the dams is the cost of producing energy. None of the other arguments are valid and are complete BS. As a farmer you might have to slow down on the two cases a day of Keystone and the forty gallons a day of diesel you spend driving around screwing off and you'll be alright. Or figure out how to work on your own equipment like farmers used to do. There are plenty of exceptions and not all farmers operate this way but plenty of them do and I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Wow!!

I think the farmers would disagree with you. I’ll leave that to them to answer though.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jackelope on June 18, 2022, 03:54:30 PM
What will we do with barges?

The intake for the canals, and irrigation inlets aren’t at the dams. Go drive highways 730 and 14 and tell me how those farms will continue?  You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of irrigated farmland.  Vineyards, corn, spuds, etc.

The economic impact dam removal would have is unthinkable.

I’m not a farmer, can’t speak to their keystone drinking habits, they should probably try Busch Light.


All of this for a big, hatchery raised trout????



Just a few thoughts.

*salmon
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 04:23:16 PM
****Trout. Mushy ass trout.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Skillet on June 18, 2022, 04:28:37 PM
****Trout. Mushy ass trout.

Objectively not correct.  If you really believe this, you're asking not to be taken seriously.  You don't have another HuntWa handle and an axe to grind over certain import trucks, do you?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 18, 2022, 04:31:24 PM
Navigation
Snake River Dams
--FACTS --
  The Columbia Snake River System is a 465-mile river highway that provides farmers and other producers as far as the Midwest access to international markets.1
 The Snake River experienced a 34% increase in cargo movement from 2012 to 2014.2
 4,361,000 tons of cargo were barged on the Snake River in 2014. It would have taken 43,610 rail
cars to carry this cargo, or over 167,000 semi-trucks.3
 Barging is the most efficient and environmentally friendly method for moving cargo.4
 Barging depends on the navigation locks at the Snake River dams for access to the federally
maintained channel.
 The Columbia Snake River System is a unified transportation network providing local and national
benefits. The 18 deep water and inland ports handle marine commerce serving farmers as far inland
as the Midwest.
 Barging disciplines rail and trucking costs, ensuring that the price of moving goods in the Pacific
Northwest remains competitive.5
 A typical four-barge tow moves the same amount of cargo as 140 rail cars or 538 trucks.6
Agriculture
 The Columbia Snake River System is the top wheat export gateway in the United States.7
 The Snake River dams and navigation locks allow inland farmers access to international markets.
 In 2014, nearly 10% of all U.S. wheat exports moved through the Snake River dams (9.5%)8
 It would take at least 137,000 semi-trucks or 23,900 railcars to transport the wheat which moves by
barge on the Snake River.9
 Over half of the wheat barged on the river is locked through one or more of the Snake River dams.10
 The primary wheat crop grown in the Northwest, soft white wheat, is a highly sought after product
worldwide and the Pacific Northwest grows the best in the world.
 Over $500 million has been invested into Columbia River grain export terminals, and barge
unloading capacity has been expanded by over 21% in expectation of increased sales in Asian markets. The current rail capacity in the Pacific Northwest is insufficient to meet current as well as projected wheat transportation needs, and barging remains the most efficient way to move wheat to the export terminals.11
 O􏰀er 5􏰁% of Idaho’s wheat is exported through the Columbia Snake River System.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 18, 2022, 04:34:54 PM
Energy
 The total output of the Snake Rivers Dams is 3033 MW, which is enough energy to power 1.87 million homes. This output is also a vital aspect of the wind power grid. Since the wind does not blow constantly, the energy output of the dams can be increased or decreased by hundreds of megawatts in a few seconds to match the variability of the wind.13
 According to the Northwest Power and Conservation Council, removal of the Snake River dams would i􏰂􏰃rease 􏰄the 􏰃ar􏰅o􏰂 e􏰆issio􏰂s, 􏰃ost, a􏰂d risk of the po􏰇er s􏰈ste􏰆. [...] S􏰆all i􏰂􏰃reases i􏰂 conservation and renewable resources occur in this scenario, but the primary replacement of the dams is provided by changes in the construction of new gas-fired generating plants, changes in the operation of existing and new generating plants, and changes in net exports. Existing natural gas- fired and coal-fired ge􏰂eratio􏰂 is used 􏰆ore i􏰂te􏰂si􏰀el􏰈.􏰉14
 Cost to repla􏰃e lo􏰇er S􏰂ake Ri􏰀er da􏰆s’ 􏰃apa􏰃it􏰈 a􏰂d e􏰂erg􏰈 􏰇hile maintaining system reliability with natural gas: $274 million to $372 million per year.15
 The total cost to breach the dams would be $1.3 billion to $2.6 billion.16
 The dams also work in concert with current renewables, particularly wind and solar, to balance the
load through the grid when renewables are not producing.
 I􏰂 􏰊􏰁􏰋􏰌, h􏰈dropo􏰇er produ􏰃ed 58% of the North􏰇est’s e􏰂erg􏰈 profile 􏰇hile renewables were only
6% of the mix. Another 15% was coal and 17% was natural gas.
 It would take 2 nuclear plants, 3 coal fired plants, or 6 natural gas plants to replace the Snake River
dams.
Fish and the Environment
 2014 continued a 20-year trend of record breaking salmon returns past the Snake River dams. Major improvements in fish ladders, dam design, optimized river flow, and habitat restoration (all paid for by revenues from the Snake and Columbia River dams) have resulted in consistent improvements to salmon returns. 2014 saw the best year in history for salmon returns.17
 Dam investments have resulted in improved fish returns and a 25 year sustained increase in salmon populations. 2015 adult returns past McNary dam are the highest returns recorded since the dam was completed in 1957.
 The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has spent $800 million in fish passage improvements on the dams on the Columbia and Snake Rivers. This has increased downstream salmon migration survival rates to 1960 levels, before the Snake River dams were constructed.18
 Juvenile fish survival rates past the eight federal dams were between 95% and 98% in 2014.19
 Between 2002 and 2011, average wild Chinook salmon populations have more than tripled, and
average wild steelhead populations have doubled.20
 The time it takes fish to pass through the dams is also the quickest it has been since the dams were
installed, and continues to decrease with each new improvement.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 18, 2022, 04:38:41 PM
 The Snake River dams do not block access for fish, as was the case with the Condit, Elwha, and Glines Canyon dams. The Snake River dams have state of the art fish passage which allows over 97% of juvenile salmon to safely migrate past each of the dams.
 NOAA Fisheries - responsible for protection of listed salmon - says that survival rates through the hydro system are now approaching levels seen in rivers without dams.
 In 2014, over 2.5 million adult salmon and steelhead passed Bonneville Dam, setting new overall record levels since counts began in 1938. Of the fish returning in 2014, the sockeye, fall chinook, and coho were record or near-record runs, including the Snake River stocks.
 There are now more fish in the river than at any point since 1938, when the first dam, Bonneville, was put in and populations continue to increase.
 The level of collaboration on the river system is at an all-time high. Cooperation between the federal agencies, the States of Washington, Idaho and Montana, and sovereign tribes is producing real results for listed fish runs. The only entities who are left as the plaintiffs in the FCRPS BiOp lawsuit are the environmental groups, the Nez Perce tribe, and the State of Oregon.
 The Obama administration took a hard look at the Federal Columbia River Power System (FCRPS) Biological Opinion (BiOp) after taking office in 2009. The administration put their scientific and political stamp of approval on the plan in 2010, which includes the current approach to the Snake River dams. The administration added particular triggers, like studying dam breaching, if particular fish runs start to decline. The Obama administration recognizes that breaching the Snake River dams is an extreme and risky measure, and one only to be pursued if current actions are not working. Rather than declining, most runs are instead showing record results.
 2015 adult returns past McNary dam are the highest returns recorded since the dam was completed in 1957
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Skillet on June 18, 2022, 04:43:18 PM
Great info Jeffro - can you share the source?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Dan-o on June 18, 2022, 05:01:46 PM
****Trout. Mushy ass trout.

Objectively not correct.  If you really believe this, you're asking not to be taken seriously.  You don't have another HuntWa handle and an axe to grind over certain import trucks, do you?


 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 18, 2022, 05:59:26 PM
Great info Jeffro - can you share the source?

https://portoflewiston.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Snake-River-Dams-The-Facts-PNWA.pdf

1 Pacific Northwest Waterways Association, 2017
2 Waterborne Commerce of the U.S., 2014
3 Waterborne Commerce of the U.S., 2014
4 Texas Transportation Institute, Texas A&M University, for the U.S. Maritime Administration, 2008 5 Study by economist Eric Fruits, PhD., 2013
6 Pacific Northwest Waterways Association, 2017 7 U.S. Department of Agriculture, 2016
8 Waterborne Commerce of the U.S., 2014
9 Waterborne Commerce of the U.S., 2014
10 U.S. Wheat Associates, 2016
11 U.S. Wheat Associates, 2016
12 Idaho Wheat Commission, 2007
13 Bonneville Power Administration, 2009
14 Northwest Power and Conservation Council, Sixth Northwest Conservation and Electric Power Plan, 2010
15 Bonneville Power Administration, 2016
16 Bonneville Power Administration, 2016
17 (US Army Corps of Engineers and Bonneville Power Adminsitration, 2014)
18 (Bonneville Power Administration, 2010) and (US Army Corps of Engineers and Bonneville Power Administration, 2014)
19 (Bonneville Power Administration, 2010) and (US Army Corps of Engineers and Bonneville Power Administration, 2014)
20 (US Army Corps of Engineers and Bonneville Power Administration, 2014)
21 (US Army Corps of Engineers and Bonneville Power Administration, 2014)



Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 18, 2022, 06:00:57 PM
And yes I have relatives and people I love deeply affected by this proposal.
Did You know?
Orcas eat seal lions, grey whales, dog fish, cod even great white sharks and every species of salmon, not just the mystical native chinook?
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Jake Dogfish on June 18, 2022, 06:08:09 PM
Removal of any of the Snake river dams would have massive benefits to the environment and the economy.  It will never happen in our lifetime though. Lots of money is being spent by dam huggers to scare people in to getting the word out and protect the status quo.
We can’t even get the gillnets out, dams are just a pipe dream.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: jeffro on June 18, 2022, 06:16:17 PM
Removal of any of the Snake river dams would have massive benefits to the environment and the economy.  It will never happen in our lifetime though. Lots of money is being spent by dam huggers to scare people in to getting the word out and protect the status quo.
We can’t even get the gillnets out, dams are just a pipe dream.

What part of the economy?
Wind turbine manufacturing and install?
Solar panel manufacturing and install?
Trucking, and the big oil to fuel it?
Railroad? That’s a joke!
How will it affect inflation….
25-30% increase in YOUR power bill
That’ll really stoke up our economy

Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 06:39:00 PM
****Trout. Mushy ass trout.

Objectively not correct.  If you really believe this, you're asking not to be taken seriously.  You don't have another HuntWa handle and an axe to grind over certain import trucks, do you?

I absolutely know they are “salmon.”

I have no axe to grind on the salmon. It’s the fact that there’s a consideration to take these dams out, and deal with the implications.

How about we deal with the predators first and see where that gets us.

Let’s kill some seals, terns, cormorants, gulls.

Let’s take some gill nets out of the water.

That’s a cheap and less crazy approach.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on June 18, 2022, 07:10:24 PM
Removal of any of the Snake river dams would have massive benefits to the environment and the economy.  It will never happen in our lifetime though. Lots of money is being spent by dam huggers to scare people in to getting the word out and protect the status quo.
We can’t even get the gillnets out, dams are just a pipe dream.

Benefits to the economy, you really have guzzled the kook-aid.🤣
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Igor on June 18, 2022, 07:12:30 PM
Removal of any of the Snake river dams would have massive benefits to the environment and the economy.  It will never happen in our lifetime though. Lots of money is being spent by dam huggers to scare people in to getting the word out and protect the status quo.
We can’t even get the gillnets out, dams are just a pipe dream.

Benefits to the economy, you really have guzzled the kook-aid.🤣

(https://i.imgur.com/gFyja2lh.jpg)
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Skillet on June 18, 2022, 08:11:53 PM
****Trout. Mushy ass trout.

Objectively not correct.  If you really believe this, you're asking not to be taken seriously.  You don't have another HuntWa handle and an axe to grind over certain import trucks, do you?

I absolutely know they are “salmon.”

I have no axe to grind on the salmon. It’s the fact that there’s a consideration to take these dams out, and deal with the implications.

How about we deal with the predators first and see where that gets us.

Let’s kill some seals, terns, cormorants, gulls.

Let’s take some gill nets out of the water.

That’s a cheap and less crazy approach.

Then why did you make a deliberate point to state they were not salmon?  It is a rhetorical question, of course, but one that needs asking since that is the hill you chose to defend on the battle map.  When somebody goes out of their way to make hyperbolic statements like that, it signals major weakness in their base argument - or fear of losing the argument on its merits.

Your actual proposed solutions are great, but may not be enough as stand-alone efforts in the time frame you propose.  I support them 100% as a part of a bigger effort to "get more fish back on the gravel."

Of course, I have a vested interest in seeing more salmon in the ocean, so that I may make money catching and selling them.  However, I won't support removing the lower Snake River dams at any cost - if that were to actually happen, I believe it would need to be fully justified in both economic and social benefit terms.  That is extraordinarily difficult to achieve, as the economists generally "know the price of everything, but the value of nothing."  An economic impact statement saying that the wild salmon population increase justifies the loss of lower Snake River irrigation and commerce would be pretty hard to take for the family farms and people of Lewiston/Clarkston.  I'm certain that they wouldn't say "We lost our livliehood, but it's OK since Skillet and the rest of the fleet in Alaska gets to catch another 50 kings each in a few years."

Don't get me wrong - I want those extra 50 kings.  In a good price year, that's about $5K more to the bottom line with virtually no more expense or time expended. But I don't want it if it means wrecking another family's livelihood. It's a double-edged sword, though -  there could be a time where my not getting those extra kings means my livelihood is wrecked just so Johnny Plowboy doesn't have to switch to Busch Lite from Keystone Light for his winter shenanigans... I have many ideas about increasing fish in the ocean that aren't championed by the vested "wild fish" interests - but I've yet to see a wild king taste different than a hatchery king, or get paid more for wild vs. hatchery. 

The point I'm making is that there are a lot of factors involved, from a lot of different perspectives.  Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're evil, or seeking to destroy your way of life, or even wrong - they are just placing a higher value on a different outcome than you are.  There's nothing wrong with that - self interest is what our country was created for, and the rationale that our free-market, capitalistic economy is built on.  So I encourage everybody - on both sides of this, and any other politically charged issue - to stop with the dehumanization and/or name calling of those that disagree with you and just listen to what they have to say.  You might be surprised to learn that they just don't know the facts until they are presented to them - like Jeffro took the time to present to us here.  Some folks just won't listen to you, of course.  But don't be that guy that won't listen - you might learn something, and you might actually change your mind on a point or two.  I certainly don't believe everything I believed as a teenager, or as a 30 year old, or even last year. Being human means learning, growing, adapting. It's the process we all go through - unless you're the weird 20 year old that is still nursing from mama's teat. 

There's a whole 'nother thread for you, though...  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 08:23:20 PM
Skillet:

You’re the salmon master. Don’t get offended that I called them trout.

I have about as much worry in my argument as I do thinking I’ll draw an OIL in Washington.

It just pisses me off to see the main stream news push for the removal of these dams.

Back to the Busch Light for me. Have a great night.
Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Skillet on June 18, 2022, 08:40:17 PM
Skillet:

You’re the salmon master. Don’t get offended that I called them trout.

I have about as much worry in my argument as I do thinking I’ll draw an OIL in Washington.

It just pisses me off to see the main stream news push for the removal of these dams.

Back to the Busch Light for me. Have a great night.

Take a lot more than that to offend me, just making the observation.  It's all good, I know what you mean about media bias on this issue.  It's bad.  Cuts all ways tho - to hear some outlets tell it, every king salmon I catch up here kills a precious Orca in the San Juans... Nobody is safe from Southern Resident Killer Whale political efforts.

And to be clear, I am not really a salmon master.  I just get to kill them for money!  Even being a journeyman, it's a good life :chuckle:

Title: Re: Removing the Snake River dams
Post by: Timberstalker on June 18, 2022, 08:50:51 PM
 :tup:
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