Removing the Snake River dams

[Timberstalker]

Who remembers the Great Drawdown of 1992???

That worked out well!!!!!!!!

Brain dead clowns!!!!

[jackelope]

Who remembers the Great Drawdown of 1992???

That worked out well!!!!!!!!

Brain dead clowns!!!!

Tell us how you really feel!!

[MeepDog]

Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.

The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

I’m glad we got that out of the way!!!!

^Said the salmon after the dam was removed

[Timberstalker]

@Jackelope

I can’t, because you’ll ban me!!!

[LDennis24]

Can one of you guys show me a map or something showing the irrigation the four lower Snake River dams provide? I've worked at all of them and don't recall any irrigation systems. The draw down in 1992 was a joke also. I have read about it and it was a joke. The concrete was still there as an impediment to the fish. So the concrete is actually killing the salmon. The current was the only improvement the draw down provided that I can find. They were more interested in the settling of grain terminal foundations and how the dams would run with minimal water flows coming through the turbines, etc. It was never about truly seeing how it benefited the salmon. I have hauled fertilizer to plenty of different farmers while working for The McGregor Company. I also ran a grain terminal for four years including loading trains that went to the river and to Portland. Farming isn't as difficult as it was fifty years ago. Now days it's a damn easy job and half the year farmers do nothing but play and come into town to golf. I know, I live on the Palouse around them and see their lifestyle every day. Some don't even do their own maintenance and repair. The only real argument for not breaching the dams is the cost of producing energy. None of the other arguments are valid and are complete BS. As a farmer you might have to slow down on the two cases a day of Keystone and the forty gallons a day of diesel you spend driving around screwing off and you'll be alright. Or figure out how to work on your own equipment like farmers used to do. There are plenty of exceptions and not all farmers operate this way but plenty of them do and I don't feel sorry for them at all.

[Sandberm]

Oh boy!

Dennis brought his gas can an matches to the thread

[Timberstalker]

What will we do with barges?

The intake for the canals, and irrigation inlets aren’t at the dams. Go drive highways 730 and 14 and tell me how those farms will continue?  You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of irrigated farmland.  Vineyards, corn, spuds, etc.

The economic impact dam removal would have is unthinkable.

I’m not a farmer, can’t speak to their keystone drinking habits, they should probably try Busch Light.


All of this for a big, hatchery raised trout?



Just a few thoughts.

[jackelope]

Can one of you guys show me a map or something showing the irrigation the four lower Snake River dams provide? I've worked at all of them and don't recall any irrigation systems. The draw down in 1992 was a joke also. I have read about it and it was a joke. The concrete was still there as an impediment to the fish. So the concrete is actually killing the salmon. The current was the only improvement the draw down provided that I can find. They were more interested in the settling of grain terminal foundations and how the dams would run with minimal water flows coming through the turbines, etc. It was never about truly seeing how it benefited the salmon. I have hauled fertilizer to plenty of different farmers while working for The McGregor Company. I also ran a grain terminal for four years including loading trains that went to the river and to Portland. Farming isn't as difficult as it was fifty years ago. Now days it's a damn easy job and half the year farmers do nothing but play and come into town to golf. I know, I live on the Palouse around them and see their lifestyle every day. Some don't even do their own maintenance and repair. The only real argument for not breaching the dams is the cost of producing energy. None of the other arguments are valid and are complete BS. As a farmer you might have to slow down on the two cases a day of Keystone and the forty gallons a day of diesel you spend driving around screwing off and you'll be alright. Or figure out how to work on your own equipment like farmers used to do. There are plenty of exceptions and not all farmers operate this way but plenty of them do and I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Wow!!

I think the farmers would disagree with you. I’ll leave that to them to answer though.

[jackelope]

What will we do with barges?

The intake for the canals, and irrigation inlets aren’t at the dams. Go drive highways 730 and 14 and tell me how those farms will continue?  You’re talking about hundreds of thousands of irrigated farmland.  Vineyards, corn, spuds, etc.

The economic impact dam removal would have is unthinkable.

I’m not a farmer, can’t speak to their keystone drinking habits, they should probably try Busch Light.


All of this for a big, hatchery raised trout?



Just a few thoughts.

*salmon

[Timberstalker]

****Trout. Mushy ass trout.

[Skillet]

****Trout. Mushy ass trout.

Objectively not correct.  If you really believe this, you're asking not to be taken seriously.  You don't have another HuntWa handle and an axe to grind over certain import trucks, do you?

[jeffro]

Navigation
Snake River Dams
--FACTS --
  The Columbia Snake River System is a 465-mile river highway that provides farmers and other producers as far as the Midwest access to international markets.1
 The Snake River experienced a 34% increase in cargo movement from 2012 to 2014.2
 4,361,000 tons of cargo were barged on the Snake River in 2014. It would have taken 43,610 rail
cars to carry this cargo, or over 167,000 semi-trucks.3
 Barging is the most efficient and environmentally friendly method for moving cargo.4
 Barging depends on the navigation locks at the Snake River dams for access to the federally
maintained channel.
 The Columbia Snake River System is a unified transportation network providing local and national
benefits. The 18 deep water and inland ports handle marine commerce serving farmers as far inland
as the Midwest.
 Barging disciplines rail and trucking costs, ensuring that the price of moving goods in the Pacific
Northwest remains competitive.5
 A typical four-barge tow moves the same amount of cargo as 140 rail cars or 538 trucks.6
Agriculture
 The Columbia Snake River System is the top wheat export gateway in the United States.7
 The Snake River dams and navigation locks allow inland farmers access to international markets.
 In 2014, nearly 10% of all U.S. wheat exports moved through the Snake River dams (9.5%)8
 It would take at least 137,000 semi-trucks or 23,900 railcars to transport the wheat which moves by
barge on the Snake River.9
 Over half of the wheat barged on the river is locked through one or more of the Snake River dams.10
 The primary wheat crop grown in the Northwest, soft white wheat, is a highly sought after product
worldwide and the Pacific Northwest grows the best in the world.
 Over $500 million has been invested into Columbia River grain export terminals, and barge
unloading capacity has been expanded by over 21% in expectation of increased sales in Asian markets. The current rail capacity in the Pacific Northwest is insufficient to meet current as well as projected wheat transportation needs, and barging remains the most efficient way to move wheat to the export terminals.11
 O􏰀er 5􏰁% of Idaho’s wheat is exported through the Columbia Snake River System.

[jeffro]

Energy
 The total output of the Snake Rivers Dams is 3033 MW, which is enough energy to power 1.87 million homes. This output is also a vital aspect of the wind power grid. Since the wind does not blow constantly, the energy output of the dams can be increased or decreased by hundreds of megawatts in a few seconds to match the variability of the wind.13
 According to the Northwest Power and Conservation Council, removal of the Snake River dams would i􏰂􏰃rease 􏰄the 􏰃ar􏰅o􏰂 e􏰆issio􏰂s, 􏰃ost, a􏰂d risk of the po􏰇er s􏰈ste􏰆. [...] S􏰆all i􏰂􏰃reases i􏰂 conservation and renewable resources occur in this scenario, but the primary replacement of the dams is provided by changes in the construction of new gas-fired generating plants, changes in the operation of existing and new generating plants, and changes in net exports. Existing natural gas- fired and coal-fired ge􏰂eratio􏰂 is used 􏰆ore i􏰂te􏰂si􏰀el􏰈.􏰉14
 Cost to repla􏰃e lo􏰇er S􏰂ake Ri􏰀er da􏰆s’ 􏰃apa􏰃it􏰈 a􏰂d e􏰂erg􏰈 􏰇hile maintaining system reliability with natural gas: $274 million to $372 million per year.15
 The total cost to breach the dams would be $1.3 billion to $2.6 billion.16
 The dams also work in concert with current renewables, particularly wind and solar, to balance the
load through the grid when renewables are not producing.
 I􏰂 􏰊􏰁􏰋􏰌, h􏰈dropo􏰇er produ􏰃ed 58% of the North􏰇est’s e􏰂erg􏰈 profile 􏰇hile renewables were only
6% of the mix. Another 15% was coal and 17% was natural gas.
 It would take 2 nuclear plants, 3 coal fired plants, or 6 natural gas plants to replace the Snake River
dams.
Fish and the Environment
 2014 continued a 20-year trend of record breaking salmon returns past the Snake River dams. Major improvements in fish ladders, dam design, optimized river flow, and habitat restoration (all paid for by revenues from the Snake and Columbia River dams) have resulted in consistent improvements to salmon returns. 2014 saw the best year in history for salmon returns.17
 Dam investments have resulted in improved fish returns and a 25 year sustained increase in salmon populations. 2015 adult returns past McNary dam are the highest returns recorded since the dam was completed in 1957.
 The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has spent $800 million in fish passage improvements on the dams on the Columbia and Snake Rivers. This has increased downstream salmon migration survival rates to 1960 levels, before the Snake River dams were constructed.18
 Juvenile fish survival rates past the eight federal dams were between 95% and 98% in 2014.19
 Between 2002 and 2011, average wild Chinook salmon populations have more than tripled, and
average wild steelhead populations have doubled.20
 The time it takes fish to pass through the dams is also the quickest it has been since the dams were
installed, and continues to decrease with each new improvement.

[jeffro]

 The Snake River dams do not block access for fish, as was the case with the Condit, Elwha, and Glines Canyon dams. The Snake River dams have state of the art fish passage which allows over 97% of juvenile salmon to safely migrate past each of the dams.
 NOAA Fisheries - responsible for protection of listed salmon - says that survival rates through the hydro system are now approaching levels seen in rivers without dams.
 In 2014, over 2.5 million adult salmon and steelhead passed Bonneville Dam, setting new overall record levels since counts began in 1938. Of the fish returning in 2014, the sockeye, fall chinook, and coho were record or near-record runs, including the Snake River stocks.
 There are now more fish in the river than at any point since 1938, when the first dam, Bonneville, was put in and populations continue to increase.
 The level of collaboration on the river system is at an all-time high. Cooperation between the federal agencies, the States of Washington, Idaho and Montana, and sovereign tribes is producing real results for listed fish runs. The only entities who are left as the plaintiffs in the FCRPS BiOp lawsuit are the environmental groups, the Nez Perce tribe, and the State of Oregon.
 The Obama administration took a hard look at the Federal Columbia River Power System (FCRPS) Biological Opinion (BiOp) after taking office in 2009. The administration put their scientific and political stamp of approval on the plan in 2010, which includes the current approach to the Snake River dams. The administration added particular triggers, like studying dam breaching, if particular fish runs start to decline. The Obama administration recognizes that breaching the Snake River dams is an extreme and risky measure, and one only to be pursued if current actions are not working. Rather than declining, most runs are instead showing record results.
 2015 adult returns past McNary dam are the highest returns recorded since the dam was completed in 1957

[Skillet]

Great info Jeffro - can you share the source?