Removing the Snake River dams

[Rutnbuxnbulls]

I have tried to copy and paste a video of the Elwha Dam Removal. It was deemed a success on many levels, salmon and steelhead recovery and estuary health.

Maybe if they came up with a way to generate the equivalent amount of power and actually implemented it before the dams were removed it would be okay to remove the Snake Dams? Not an expert on the subject but obviously we need good shipping for wheat and ag, trains and trucks gonna do the job?

We have to see the whole picture though too. These fish don’t just create a recreational source for fishermen. They provide streamside habitat upriver when they die, shedding necessary nutrients for plants to grow along the streams. Deer, Elk etc benefit. A free flowing river also creates a habitat that is beautiful and healthier for many species. I see both sides of the issue so I’m going on the  fence about it.

I want more fish and cheap power too! Damn these Dams

[Bareback]

Society is 10 years behind the green energy plan. If this state is to meet Dimslees 2030 plan he best get moving. The infrastructure to support such an idea is beyond massive. Charging stations need to be  installed at all state and federal properties, yesterday. Replacing petro with electric will require 10X in power generation. The only way to provide that is with nuclear.

The problem with Dems/liberal is they can’t see past their nose. They have all the solutions but absolutely zero awareness of the financial implications of such proposals, timelines or actually implementing any of them. It’s a party of feel gooders. They pass laws that make them feel good but never enforce them. Everyone gets a trophy………. For accomplishing nothing.

[MR5x5]

Society is 10 years behind the green energy plan. If this state is to meet Dimslees 2030 plan he best get moving. The infrastructure to support such an idea is beyond massive. Charging stations need to be  installed at all state and federal properties, yesterday. Replacing petro with electric will require 10X in power generation. The only way to provide that is with nuclear.

The problem with Dems/liberal is they can’t see past their nose. They have all the solutions but absolutely zero awareness of the financial implications of such proposals, timelines or actually implementing any of them. It’s a party of feel gooders. They pass laws that make them feel good but never enforce them. Everyone gets a trophy………. For accomplishing nothing.

This.

Show me a viable plan to consider and maybe I can get behind it.  But "tear it out then figure it out" is a non starter for me.

[NW SURVEYOR]

Read the book "Cadillac Desert".
Written/read years ago.
It sheds a lot of light on the damming of the western rivers.

Another good read is "A tale of two rivers" which compares the health of the Columbia vs Frazier systems.
The Frazier had no dams and a robust steelhead and salmon population while the Columbia was/is suffering.
Both rivers drain about the same amount of real estate and share other similarities.

One more interesting read is "Return to the river" by Roderick Haig Brown.
Written in the 1940s I believe and reads like it was written last week.

Everyone that is opposed to dam removal should read these and then perhaps repost your opinions.
Being a card-carrying Republican, I can honestly say, the LIBERALS are not entirely the problem.
We do need to find alternatives for power before removing said dams, but we do need to have the conversation now.

My two cents.

Carry on.
Rob.

[nwwanderer]

We need a thriving economy to get where we are going, the current situation only slows or may completely stop that progress.  When food is produced where it consumed, planet wide, and technology produces the power we need locally the dams will be obsolete.  Open field agriculture on the current scales will come to an end, yes you could have 20,000,000 bison again.  This is quite a ways out, 50 to 100 years is often quoted.  Is it 200 or 500 years out if we head down rabbit holes like removing the dams today?

[JimmyHoffa]

I have tried to copy and paste a video of the Elwha Dam Removal. It was deemed a success on many levels, salmon and steelhead recovery and estuary health.

Maybe if they came up with a way to generate the equivalent amount of power and actually implemented it before the dams were removed it would be okay to remove the Snake Dams? Not an expert on the subject but obviously we need good shipping for wheat and ag, trains and trucks gonna do the job?

We have to see the whole picture though too. These fish don’t just create a recreational source for fishermen. They provide streamside habitat upriver when they die, shedding necessary nutrients for plants to grow along the streams. Deer, Elk etc benefit. A free flowing river also creates a habitat that is beautiful and healthier for many species. I see both sides of the issue so I’m going on the  fence about it.

I want more fish and cheap power too! Damn these Dams

Elwha is a real mixed bag.  They have a few redds above the old dam sites and some colonizing off main branches, but not nearly in the numbers that the park was selling pre-removal.  The estuary rebuild and smelt increase were a plus and ahead of predictions.  For salmon, I think over 80% of the returns are still hatchery fish.  This bugs a few of the bios that wanted it to be a giant lab to see how nature could recover without help.  The river was closed to fishing just before the dams came down and only supposed to last five years, but twelve years later still closed (for any fish, unless your in the tribe) because it hasn't met the expectations.  First dam was out of the way in 2012, second in 2014.
Some of the other problems have been that the main bridge over the river was damaged by flooding and is being replaced, the water supply for Port Angeles has to come from the river instead of the reservoirs--so there are water restrictions in summer now, no close-by lake for all the kids to go to in summer and when the river eroded the roads in the park, the legal issues to rebuild the road have really impacted the local economy that was supposed to get a big boost when turning toward 'green/tourism/sustainable' jobs.

[MeepDog]

The politics can be ignored for this topic. 1000Mw isn't that crazy. Columbia Generating Station on the hanford site puts out 1200MW on its own and has a tiny footprint. Those dams are suffocating that river and have turned the river into prime habitat for the warm water invasive species. The real issue is that grain farmers have gotten used to easy irrigation and barges to ship their produce for cheap. On top of all that, the built up sediment at the base of the dams could choke the river if released all at once. Do I still think we should do it? Heck yeah. The snake should flow like the Hanford reach not stagnate in big pools.

It doesnt bother you about losing 8% of our states power production?

You mention the Nuke plant at Handford and the huge amount of power it makes, I AGREE, THATS GREAT!...problem is... the powers that be have already determined that when that plants worn out they wont build another nuke plant, too expensive.

How do you feel about the whole horse heaven skyline being dotted with windmills?

They're going to build 2 Small Modular Reactors by X Energy on that site. If I remember right they're 200MW each but I could be wrong about that. Too expensive isn't even on the table when you're talking large scale power production. Those 4 dams could be replaced on the grid for less than it costs to remove them.

[MeepDog]

Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.

The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

[idahohuntr]

Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.

The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

When do these run of river dams/pools not have current?

[MeepDog]

Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.

The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

When do these run of river dams/pools not have current?

There's a reason above the dam is named "lake wallula" or "lake celilo". Look at the healthiest part of the columbia river: the Hanford reach. The entire river is affected by the current. Above those dams you may as well be sitting in your backyard swimming pool because the wind pushes you more than any current.

[Timberstalker]

Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.

The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

I’m glad we got that out of the way!!!!

[timberfaller]

I have tried to copy and paste a video of the Elwha Dam Removal. It was deemed a success on many levels, salmon and steelhead recovery and estuary health.

Maybe if they came up with a way to generate the equivalent amount of power and actually implemented it before the dams were removed it would be okay to remove the Snake Dams? Not an expert on the subject but obviously we need good shipping for wheat and ag, trains and trucks gonna do the job?

We have to see the whole picture though too. These fish don’t just create a recreational source for fishermen. They provide streamside habitat upriver when they die, shedding necessary nutrients for plants to grow along the streams. Deer, Elk etc benefit. A free flowing river also creates a habitat that is beautiful and healthier for many species. I see both sides of the issue so I’m going on the  fence about it.

I want more fish and cheap power too! Damn these Dams

Elwha is a real mixed bag.  They have a few redds above the old dam sites and some colonizing off main branches, but not nearly in the numbers that the park was selling pre-removal.  The estuary rebuild and smelt increase were a plus and ahead of predictions.  For salmon, I think over 80% of the returns are still hatchery fish.  This bugs a few of the bios that wanted it to be a giant lab to see how nature could recover without help.  The river was closed to fishing just before the dams came down and only supposed to last five years, but twelve years later still closed (for any fish, unless your in the tribe) because it hasn't met the expectations.  First dam was out of the way in 2012, second in 2014.
Some of the other problems have been that the main bridge over the river was damaged by flooding and is being replaced, the water supply for Port Angeles has to come from the river instead of the reservoirs--so there are water restrictions in summer now, no close-by lake for all the kids to go to in summer and when the river eroded the roads in the park, the legal issues to rebuild the road have really impacted the local economy that was supposed to get a big boost when turning toward 'green/tourism/sustainable' jobs.

LOL, the same thing can be said for the Methow Valley!!  "we have to pipe the ditches so more water will be in the river when the salmon need it most".  The "egregious people" of the Methow are thieves according to the Feds!!  Didn't happen, ALL these clowns succeeded in doing was destroy all the "green belts" the open ditches created over the many decades.  Didn't improve the salmon runs one bit.   We will all see now, that the Tribes have been given land back to them, what will happen next.  One thing that was very evident during the "water war" the Tribes can TELL the Feds what they will DO and what they CAN'T do!! and they JUMP!

[idahohuntr]

Will removing the dams help the salmon?  Absolutely!

Tell me the repercussions of removing them is worth it.

Give me an honest justification.

It’s not the good old days. Gone are the days of “native” salmon fishing with high numbers of fish.
The nets, seals, terns, cormorants, Indians, etc are far more damaging than the concrete.

I’ll wait.

The actual concrete isn't killing any fish. It's the change in habitat that promotes all the warm water predators we dumped in there. Also the smolts rely on current to make it to the ocean and when there's none they get lost and eaten.

When do these run of river dams/pools not have current?

There's a reason above the dam is named "lake wallula" or "lake celilo". Look at the healthiest part of the columbia river: the Hanford reach. The entire river is affected by the current. Above those dams you may as well be sitting in your backyard swimming pool because the wind pushes you more than any current.

So if I was in a boat behind one of the lower snake dams today, last week, last month and the wind wasnt blowing I'd just sit in one place?

[Timberstalker]

Correct. If the spill gates are all the way closed and no water is spilling over.
Which never happens.

Must be magic.

[idahohuntr]

Correct. If the spill gates are all the way closed and no water is spilling over.
Which never happens.
 


Must be magic.