Post by: magnanimous_j on May 15, 2009, 10:02:47 PM
On the other hand, having the 12 gauge is a good home defense gun (my 9mm is too small, and my AK-47 isn't a good choice for apartments), so should I consider one of these Mossberg combo rigs (28" and 18" barrel)?
Finally, I like the look and feel of real wood stocks. Is synthetic that much lighter after 4 hours in the field?
So Basically, I had what I wanted totally figured out, now I have no idea what I want
Post by: bobcat on May 15, 2009, 10:08:43 PM
Post by: ICEMAN on May 15, 2009, 10:09:53 PM
For multi purpose, you cant beat a 12gauge. Lots of grouse dropped by 12's. Good home defense. If I had to buy my first shotgun, it would be a 12. Then later get something smaller to specialize with...grouse, rabbit....etc....
Who told you a 9mm is too small to defend the home with? 9mm has killed more than just about any other pistol round over the years...nothing wrong with it...
Post by: magnanimous_j on May 15, 2009, 10:16:30 PM
For multi purpose, you cant beat a 12gauge. Lots of grouse dropped by 12's. Good home defense. If I had to buy my first shotgun, it would be a 12. Then later get something smaller to specialize with...grouse, rabbit....etc....
Who told you a 9mm is too small to defend the home with? 9mm has killed more than just about any other pistol round over the years...nothing wrong with it...
My fear was that a 12 gauge would pulp the birds and ruin them for the eating.
I'm sure that 9mm is adequate for defense (that's why I bought the thing in the first place, after all), but if I hear that door get kicked in, and I've got a my 9, a shotgun, and my AK, I'm not grabbing the pistol.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 15, 2009, 10:25:58 PM
It's not so much the gauge, but the size shotshell you use. If you mess up a bird, then use a lighter load next time. I even use a 12 gauge for quail (only because I am usually pheasant hunting when I come across them). Just use a light load.
also, if you ever decide to start waterfowling, in most cases you will be glad you have a 12 gauge.
I know there are some real proponents of the 16s and the 20s out there, but I like my 12, so that's what I stuck with.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 15, 2009, 10:28:08 PM
Post by: jackelope on May 15, 2009, 10:39:17 PM
870 all the way too....millions of gun owners can't be wrong.
Post by: @RCHER on May 15, 2009, 10:41:25 PM
For ammo, you don't need a lot of BOOM. You'll have good luck with 2 3/4", 3 to 3 1/4 dram, 1 oz., 6 shot loads.
I'll assume your concern for beating them up is due to close range shots on the ground or in trees?? If that's the case, then aim just above the head, once you know how your new gun patterns and depending on your choke. If you're flushing them up, then you can't hand pick the range you'll shoot anyway. You need a good all-purpose scatter gun. The 12 will allow you to expand into more hunting opps than the 20.
Congrats and good luck!
Post by: bowhunterforever on May 16, 2009, 01:26:29 AM
I'll second Bobcat's exact words. Good advice.:yeah: You cant go wrong with the 870
For ammo, you don't need a lot of BOOM. You'll have good luck with 2 3/4", 3 to 3 1/4 dram, 1 oz., 6 shot loads.
I'll assume your concern for beating them up is due to close range shots on the ground or in trees?? If that's the case, then aim just above the head, once you know how your new gun patterns and depending on your choke. If you're flushing them up, then you can't hand pick the range you'll shoot anyway. You need a good all-purpose scatter gun. The 12 will allow you to expand into more hunting opps than the 20.
Congrats and good luck!
Post by: ICEMAN on May 16, 2009, 05:21:38 AM
Post by: Bigshooter on May 16, 2009, 07:03:23 AM
.
For ammo, you don't need a lot of BOOM. You'll have good luck with 2 3/4", 3 to 3 1/4 dram, 1 oz., 6 shot loads.
That's what I shoot in my 20ga.
Post by: bobcat on May 16, 2009, 07:22:05 AM
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 17, 2009, 09:53:45 AM
You can shoot a 20 gauge load out of a 12 gauge.
:yike:
Uh, I think I know what you are trying to say Bobcat, but maybe you should clarify....
Post by: mossback91 on May 17, 2009, 10:02:32 AM
I agree path 20 gauge is almost undergunned for pheasant on marginal shots cause them SOB are the toughest birds Ive ever hunted I swear they will run with half a leg and no wings!!! That being said I killed alot with one when I was younger :chuckle:
Post by: Bofire on May 17, 2009, 10:21:26 AM
Carl
Post by: woodswalker on May 17, 2009, 11:07:14 AM
You might want to look for a used 870 "Wingmaster" instead of an Express. In my opinion they are much smoother than the express. !2 is very versatile.
Carl
the express smooths up after a few hundred rounds. Or a few muddy duck hunts. :chuckle:
Post by: bobcat on May 17, 2009, 12:41:28 PM
You can shoot a 20 gauge load out of a 12 gauge.
:yike:
Uh, I think I know what you are trying to say Bobcat, but maybe you should clarify....
Well, yeah, I figured it was obvious, but maybe not ??? I would consider 1 ounce of shot a 20 gauge load. That is usually a maximum load in the 20 gauge, or if you do get the 1 1/8 ounce loads they're called "magnums" and are pretty slow. In a 12 gauge a 1 ounce load is usually labeled "dove/quail" or as a target load.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 17, 2009, 08:56:31 PM
You can shoot a 20 gauge load out of a 12 gauge.
:yike:
Uh, I think I know what you are trying to say Bobcat, but maybe you should clarify....
Well, yeah, I figured it was obvious, but maybe not ??? I would consider 1 ounce of shot a 20 gauge load. That is usually a maximum load in the 20 gauge, or if you do get the 1 1/8 ounce loads they're called "magnums" and are pretty slow. In a 12 gauge a 1 ounce load is usually labeled "dove/quail" or as a target load.
I knew what you meant Bobcat, but don't forget, Maggie is asking because he is buying his first shotgun. Just figured you would want to clarify... ;)
Post by: Stevo539 on May 17, 2009, 09:56:00 PM
If you want something extremely quick and light handling, then go for the 20 ga.
12 ga is more universal/common. If you're only going to have one scattergun go for the 12.
Wood stock is just fine and surprisingly lighter than most economy synthetic versions. They've held up being used in the feild for hundreds of years. The advantages that synthetics have are durability and that they are stable in changing humidity. This trait (stable) is more important in rifles than shotguns.
I highly recommend that whatever gun you pick, go for one with the screw in chokes.
Steve
Post by: WDFW-SUX on May 18, 2009, 01:12:24 PM
Post by: Wacenturion on May 18, 2009, 02:02:43 PM
Personally my upland guns are 28 gauges that come in at 6 lbs. even. Fast and deadly within their effective range. Typically, most hunters pack too large, too heavy and too choked, like in full around for upland birds. Sure they kill em, but you get to feast on blown to hell whatever you shoot.
Smaller gauges are much lighter if you seek out the right gun, and the shells weigh less.....a real joy to pack all day chasing birds. An 870 20 gauge with interchangeable chokes would be a good choice for bird hunting and allow you to choke the gun according to the bird you're hunting.
The only time I use a 12 gauge anymore is turkey hunting...although I just bought an 870 SPS Camo 20 gauge before the season. Patterns every bit as well at the range I shoot at (35 yards. and under) as the 12 as far as killing a gobbler at that range. Much lighter to pack I might add.
Smaller gauges will also make you a better shot over time....JMHO. :chuckle:
Post by: Dakota Dogman on May 18, 2009, 09:50:14 PM
Start with the gun of choice... 870's are fine; express are a little ugly in my opinion, but they work well. Wingmasters are a whole lot nicer to look at usually. Also in the running Win. model 12. Obviously used, but a better gun (my opinion) and a bit of class. Odd option is the Ithaca 37 / Browning BPS... they work excellent and often are lighter than the others. I'd personally avoid mossburg & the Benelli Nova.
What fits you well? More important than brand loyalty. Close your eyes and mount the shotgun in a swinging motion. Open your eyes and see how much of the barrel is in sight? I prefer only the bead. No bead, gun will shoot low. Lots of barrel; gun will shoot high. SKB has the best fit for me. You can learn on any gun, but a good fitting gun will make it easier.
Caliber... 12 is the norm. With a 20 you give up about 5-10 yards of "effective" range. You can kill just as far, and for most guys they won't notice the range difference; but all things being equal the pattern gets thin faster with a 20 at long ranges. The trade off; a lighter gun means you will be ready to shoot faster; thus you will be taking closer shots which you are more likely to hit.
Thus the magic of the 16, carries like a 20, hits like a 12. Shells are a bit harder to come by, but the reality is that isn't much of an issue unless your going to get into a weekly trap league.
Shot size / load size... for pheasants I perfer 1.25 oz of #4's. I know many will disagree but for the last 6 years I lived in SD that load (out of 12, 20 or 16) took over 100 pheasants a year for me. Pretty hard for me to change what I know works for me. As mentioned pheasants are tough tough birds and I have seen too many birds lost to 6's for my taste. I want shock value, drop the bird for my dogs. Under 1.25 oz, the # of pattern of #4 pellets gets too thin. Some whine about kick, but it doesn't bother me & my 20 is light.
Oh & choke... get something in the IC / Mod range & forget it. Unless your doing clays the difference is minimal. I shot Sporting clays with a sxs & Mod/Full for years quite effectively. Most chokes can be openned up for $30 - $50.
Biggest challenge to a new bird hunter... not treating the shotgun like a rifle. The gun is not to be still, ever. Swing through your target. Start the bead behind it, move through and as the bead passes the beak pull the trigger... but keep the gun moving! Too many guys either stop their swing, or pull the trigger when they get to the wings and only bust tail feathers.
If I was in your shoes I'd look around a few shops before making up my mind. The other day I saw an 870 Rem. 16 guage, a classy older gun, with a few tails to tell, for under $200. I've already had my fun for the spring, otherwise... :rolleyes: ;)
God BLess,
P.S. if the upland bird bug bites you will end up with a side by side in the end! :)
Post by: ICEMAN on May 19, 2009, 05:28:46 AM
Post by: Intruder on May 19, 2009, 07:51:21 AM
As far as a 20 gauge being too small for pheasants.... no offense, but that's pure baloney. I've shot hundreds upon hundreds of pheasants with a 20. A 20 is my primary upland gun. Depending on the gun a 20 will also often offer the advantage of being lighter, faster handling and delivering less recoil. Your biggest disadvantage of a 20 is limited shot charge with larger shot which really comes into play on waterfowl.
Post by: Wacenturion on May 19, 2009, 08:54:29 AM
No question the 870 12 gauge is going to be one of if not the most versatile shotguns you can own. It'll do everything from doves to geese and turkeys by adjusting loads and chokes. Ammo is generally cheaper due to quantities produced. Reloading them is more expensive due to the increased amount of shot and powder loaded... but that is not a huge factor.
As far as a 20 gauge being too small for pheasants.... no offense, but that's pure baloney. I've shot hundreds upon hundreds of pheasants with a 20. A 20 is my primary upland gun. Depending on the gun a 20 will also often offer the advantage of being lighter, faster handling and delivering less recoil. Your biggest disadvantage of a 20 is limited shot charge with larger shot which really comes into play on waterfowl.
Would second that. When I had setters years ago in college and when I lived in the basin (early 70's to the mid 80's), I used 28 gauges choked skeet behind my dogs. It was rare to miss a pheasant with those guns. Of course I was shooting within 15-25 yards. Quick and deadly.....pheasants didn't have a chance. Neither did huns, chukars, and quail that held for a point. Even went to using them every now and then in the duck blind....of course shooting at feet down in close birds...deadly.
Post by: magnanimous_j on May 20, 2009, 08:36:04 AM
I think this time I'll follow the popular opinion and go for the 12. I like the idea of the workhorse gun. If I do really get hooked on the birdies, I really love the feel of those over/under shotties. Maybe a 16 gauge. But I'm getting ahead of myself there.
I'll take a couple weeks and scope out the sunday paper ads and try to score the best deal on the 870 express
Post by: littlebuf on May 20, 2009, 08:48:42 AM
Post by: littlebuf on May 20, 2009, 08:50:14 AM
Post by: littlebuf on May 20, 2009, 08:52:04 AM
http://www.seattleguns.traffictestbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3994
Post by: magnanimous_j on May 20, 2009, 08:54:15 AM
Post by: littlebuf on May 20, 2009, 08:58:14 AM
Post by: mhadix on May 22, 2009, 04:12:22 PM
Also in the running Win. model 12. Obviously used, but a better gun (my opinion) and a bit of class.
probably the best choice,just my :twocents:
i love mine and it shoots great. some are a bit spendy but well worth it.
Post by: h2ofowlr on June 13, 2009, 04:24:24 PM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on June 14, 2009, 11:17:20 AM
i stepped up and bought an 870 wingmaster. with the recoil pads out there these days, the 12s don't kick bad at all, especially with target loads(i shot 4 boxes of shells yesterday and don't have the slightest pain in my shoulder today). i've even fired some heavy 00 buck shells and it's perfectly manageable.
when i was in the market for a shotgun(which thankfully i did 3 months ago before i lost my job) it came down to the ithaca 37, browning BPS and remington 870. i wanted to buy new so that kind of ruled out the ithaca(i know they're making them again, but i didn't know if the new ones fit differently than the old ones, and i would have had to order one sight-unseen directly from ithaca because the nearest dealer is in eastern OR). the BPS is a nice gun but i was concerned about being able to take it apart and put it back together(heard it's a bitch...the manual says to take it to a gunsmith for anything beyond cleaning the barrel), and when i shouldered one, it just didn't fit me like the ithaca and the remington. too bad, i like that bottom eject. that narrowed it down to the 870. the express is a cheap, ugly shotgun, i want something i'll be able to pass down to my kids someday. that's why i got the wingmaster.
now, i'd love to get me an ithaca 37 ultralight 20 someday to...
Post by: Pat/Rick on June 14, 2009, 06:44:10 PM
Post by: Dakota Dogman on June 14, 2009, 11:18:48 PM
the BPS is a nice gun but i was concerned about being able to take it apart and put it back together
You are right about the BPS / Ithaca 37 (same action)being a real pain to put back together. I've done both, and will not willingly do it again.
Original A-5's were almost as bad, with specific screws keyed to left & right sid... (learned that the hard way too... :bash:)
God Bless,
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 16, 2009, 11:25:42 AM
Post by: coachcw on June 19, 2009, 08:56:43 PM
Post by: jetjockey on June 22, 2009, 07:56:15 AM
Post by: BigGoonTuna on June 22, 2009, 11:38:36 AM
there was another one there that had had some use but looked well taken care of for the same price. however, this one had an amazing looking piece of wood for the stock. it was gone the last time i went in there.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 23, 2009, 10:49:49 AM
Post by: littlebuf on June 23, 2009, 06:51:09 PM
where did Maggie go?
the politics forum is gone and i think it took magie with it :dunno:
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 24, 2009, 10:27:12 AM
Well, that was my theory too, but I was wondering...where did Maggie go?
the politics forum is gone and i think it took magie with it :dunno:
Post by: rasbo on June 24, 2009, 10:36:28 AM
went to work for acorn :rolleyes:where did Maggie go?
the politics forum is gone and i think it took magie with it :dunno:
Post by: Pathfinder101 on June 24, 2009, 11:10:46 AM
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:went to work for acorn :rolleyes:where did Maggie go?
the politics forum is gone and i think it took magie with it :dunno:
Post by: KillBilly on June 24, 2009, 11:19:30 AM
Post by: Rob on June 24, 2009, 03:02:03 PM
I'm combining a few emails into this post so it may not read too well.
His opening question was regarding synthetic stock vs a Camo gun. He said he heard you needed/wanted a camo gun if you wanted to hunt turkey.
My reply:
I prefer the synthetic/blued over a synthetic/Camo style. However I'm still a wood/blued fan overall. People have killed turkeys for decades without using camo stocks. Wood stocks look like... well, wood. And as you know, the forests are full of wood so it blends in well. As for a barrel, if you are worried about reflections off of a blued barrel just get some camo gun tape and tape it up for a turkey hunt. It is cheap, fast and easy to do, and comes right off after the turkey hunt is over.
Next he asked about some feature on a browning that allows the fast removal of the plug. Wanted to know if that was important - especially for turkey hunting.
My reply:
I may have taken the plug out when I was in Africa, I don't recall. but other than that I can't recall having taken the plug out of my gun in 10 years (other than for occasional deep cleaning). Not a common action to need to take. I just hunt Turkey with 3 shells. I have never needed more. By the time you fire 3 times, the turkey is either dead, or long gone. Same is true for most bird hunting. First two shots are usually good, third shot is usually a waste of a shell unless you are finishing off a wounded animal.
My feeling on a lot of features on hunting gear is that they are unnecessary. They are trying to market features to people and make them feel they have to have it, when they don't need it at all. For example, for 100 years people hunted with rifles dressed in non-camo clothing. And they were very successful. Now, not only does everyone feel the need to go out and buy expensive camo, but they also have to get a pattern that matches the country they are hunting in! And what do they do? They buy this expensive camo and cover it up with a solid blaze orange vest. In my opinion, what is important when dressing for a hunt is first to make sure what you have will keep you comfortable in a wide range of weather conditions (so several non-cotton layers), and second to make sure you break up your outline. Beyond that, having leaves or stick patterns in you gear is just bonus I guess. Not sure it really helps at all except possibly in bow hunting. UV killers and scent control are more important that leaf patterns on your pants.
Same thing with Shotguns. For 100+ years people have been hunting with simple shotguns very successfully. Now they have all these fancy rapid break down, special plug removal system, low recoil, fast cycling guns. They are all really nice. Really nice. But the features are not NEEDED to hunt. I shoot a 250 dollar 12 Ga Remington 870 express. It has had probably 6,000 rounds put through it since I got it in 1991. When I got it one of my buddies told me the action would break after 2 boxes of magnum loads. This year, I had a couple things repaired (a pin that holds the trigger mechanism in kept slipping out while I was on the trap line, and an internal rail that use to be spot-tapped in would fall out after the trigger mechanism was removed making reassembly obnoxious), but they were nice to have repairs, and did not interfere with the operation of the gun. That is all I have ever spent on it to keep it running. I have shot quail, geese, ducks, cottontails, rabbits, rattlesnakes, guinea fowl, dove, grouse, turkeys and who knows what else with it. It has never jammed such that I could not fix it in 5-10 seconds, shoots 3 inch shells, and I regularly shoot in the top couple positions on the line when shooting trap. Would a nice new gun help me shoot better? Perhaps a little. But technique and practice makes a far larger difference than the type of gun you shoot.
Not trying to talk you out of a nice gun at all. I think you would be happier with one of the ones you are looking at than you would with an 870 like I use. Just keep all the features in perspective. Most Features have little to do with connecting the shot with your target. That is personal skill.
Here is how I would break it all down.
Required features
-A gun that fits you well (Make sure when holding it your arms are not all the way extended, or held in close, not too heavy to hold, etc)
-A dependable action that does not jam (I recommend semi auto or pump). The four brands we spoke of (Benelli, Beretta, Remington, and Browning) will all be dependable, but some will work better with lighter loads than others.
-Simple operation (some of the semi's are complicated to load/unload or cycle the action. Have store rep demo for you. If he/she has trouble with it, you probably will too.)
-Barrel that will take steel shot (newer guns do. Pre 1990 guns you need to be careful of).
-Ability to take 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells -Smooth trigger action (not as important as it is in a rifle.)
Nice to have features to have
-Ability to take 3.5 inch shells
-Rapid removal of plug
-Easy to disassemble
Personal preference features
-Safety location
-Camo/synthetic/wood stock/Barrel
-rapid cycle of action (some guns advertise they can shoot 9 shells in something like a couple of seconds. Honestly, when will you EVER need to shoot that fast in a hunting or trap situation??) Cool to have, but not really a needed feature for hunting or when on the trap line.
-reduced recoil (nice to have if you plan on shooting 100+ rounds a day, but if all you are doing is a couple rounds of trap or spending the day in a goose blind... well...)
Bottom line, don't let all the extra features overwhelm. Look for a gun that fits you well, feels good when you bring it up, and has a reputation for reliability. Everything else is gravy.
Post by: Rob on June 24, 2009, 03:09:55 PM
I have guys outshooting me on the trap range with a .410!
Keep in mind if one selects a 16, the shells are 25 to 50% more expensive.
Post by: magnanimous_j on July 15, 2009, 06:33:51 PM
Basically, the day I decided to buy the 870 in 12, they went off sale. So, not being in a huge hurry, I decided to wait until they went on sale again.
Then the economy finally caught up with me and hit my paycheck HARD. I have a job thats base + commision, and my commision has gone down 90% since March. So now the only luxuries I look forward to are paydays when I can afford Pabst Blue Ribbon and Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, not the usual store brand :chuckle:
My position is getting eliminated at the end of the month so most of my time has been spent job searching in this wasteland of employment and taking heart burn pills for the stress ulcer I'm working on.
But I'm going to hunt those grouse damnit, if I have to sneak up on them with a d-battery in a sweat sock! Luckily, there is still some time before the season opens
Post by: Pathfinder101 on July 15, 2009, 10:53:10 PM
But I'm going to hunt those grouse damnit, if I have to sneak up on them with a d-battery in a sweat sock! Luckily, there is still some time before the season opens
If you do, and you film it, there may be a career there for you. Tred Barta may have left an open niche...
Good luck job hunting Maggie.