Post by: Ridgerunner on July 05, 2023, 05:20:48 PM
I dropped a couple of cams so we will see what turns up over the summer but want to see if anyone else had encountered this here before and what they observed.
On the positive I know of a good spot to hunt bears when that season opens.
Post by: idaho guy on July 05, 2023, 06:56:19 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 05, 2023, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on July 05, 2023, 07:11:14 PM
Post by: Ridgerunner on July 05, 2023, 07:14:21 PM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on July 05, 2023, 07:22:34 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 05, 2023, 09:02:56 PM
I do agree with the idea bears and mature deer ( bucks) can live in close proximity. We’ve killed several nice bucks in areas with a lot of fresh bear sign. In fact we killed a nice buck and a bear in the same draw back in 1990, a few here may remember that day. Both killed about 100 yards apart within 10 minutes. The buck was shot in its bed then the bear was killed as it came out of the thicket after the shot.
Post by: boneaddict on July 05, 2023, 09:16:27 PM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on July 06, 2023, 06:07:01 AM
Post by: teanawayslayer on July 06, 2023, 06:22:43 AM
Post by: buckfvr on July 06, 2023, 08:21:06 AM
This would include other predators that regularly kill adult deer/elk.
Post by: baldopepper on July 06, 2023, 12:10:30 PM
Been singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear
When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.
Post by: MeepDog on July 06, 2023, 12:57:53 PM
Post by: hunter399 on July 06, 2023, 01:25:56 PM
I was gonna say the same :yeah:Been singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear
When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.
Cougar is king when it comes to killing deer ,fawn or otherwise.
Post by: bigmacc on July 09, 2023, 03:23:45 PM
All due respect 👍. We have found half eaten fawns in “fawning areas”, places where does will congregate with the fawns. We have pictures as well as journal entries going back to 1920 where my great grandmother would love to witness the “reverse migration “. It was her favorite time of year to sit on a hillside and watch the deer including hundreds of fawns make their way to summer “happy places” (what she called it😢). There are journal entries of bears picking off fawns “to the left” and to the right”. They would kill a fawn, tear it apart, move on to another. She said the worst was bears with cubs. Many entries said that was the most hurtful to her. Does would try to protect traveling fawns in groups, only to have a mamma bear kill 4-5 fawns and let the cubs feed. Bears are bad on mule deer, cats are bad on mule deer. Now wolves.I was gonna say the same :yeah:Been singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear
When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.
Cougar is king when it comes to killing deer ,fawn or otherwise.
Most of her entries were from vicious bear kills, some to the point she said she had to look away, only to turn back and see the same bear kill another fawn.
Post by: huntnnw on July 09, 2023, 03:57:39 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 09, 2023, 04:06:50 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 09, 2023, 04:14:34 PM
Now, if that’s what we witnessed back in the day, when bears and other predators were kept in check, imagine the devastation an explosion of predators could do on a herd. Pets, kids, etc. back then the Methow was 40k strong, predators were kept in check, AGGRESSIVELY, now the herd is a third of that size. Bears are killing pets, cats are killing pets, wolves are on the scene. Not rocket science.All due respect 👍. We have found half eaten fawns in “fawning areas”, places where does will congregate with the fawns. We have pictures as well as journal entries going back to 1920 where my great grandmother would love to witness the “reverse migration “. It was her favorite time of year to sit on a hillside and watch the deer including hundreds of fawns make their way to summer “happy places” (what she called it😢). There are journal entries of bears picking off fawns “to the left” and to the right”. They would kill a fawn, tear it apart, move on to another. She said the worst was bears with cubs. Many entries said that was the most hurtful to her. Does would try to protect traveling fawns in groups, only to have a mamma bear kill 4-5 fawns and let the cubs feed. Bears are bad on mule deer, cats are bad on mule deer. Now wolves.I was gonna say the same :yeah:Been singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear
When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.
Cougar is king when it comes to killing deer ,fawn or otherwise.
Most of her entries were from vicious bear kills, some to the point she said she had to look away, only to turn back and see the same bear kill another fawn.
Post by: hunter399 on July 09, 2023, 04:21:47 PM
Bears may be the next biggest factor.
Show me a bear that kills and eat deer there entire life.
I believe our differences in oppion are the difference in top predator in any given area.
If cougar are absent in any area ,then yes bear would be top.
In the story you describe,when there is an easy meal,bears will take advantage.
But at the end of the day ,cougar kill adult deer ,which has a direct result of how many fawns will even be available for a bear to eat.
Also the predator pit we have now is alot different than pre 90's when hound hunting and bear baiting could keep predators in check. Without these tools ,cougar is king when it comes to deer population.
But this is just my two cents ,everybody has there own👍
Post by: wadu1 on July 09, 2023, 04:53:52 PM
Post by: MADMAX on July 09, 2023, 05:31:27 PM
Not mule deer I know
But just sayin
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: wadu1 on July 09, 2023, 06:18:22 PM
And I love seeing on tonights KIRO news all the bears in peoples yardsMunching on goats now,
Not mule deer I know
But just sayin
:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
https://mynorthwest.com/3907297/black-bear-eats-goat-in-bellevue-attempts-second-attack/ (https://mynorthwest.com/3907297/black-bear-eats-goat-in-bellevue-attempts-second-attack/)
Post by: bigmacc on July 10, 2023, 12:47:59 PM
Cougar kill deer 24/7 .....365 days a year.👍 Don’t get me wrong, I know cats are putting a smack down on deer(I’m speaking the area I know,Methow) and have been for over 30 years or so. We find quite a few “cached” kills in areas, sometimes dozens within a few mile radius. In the Methow where the herd has been decimated by not only poor management but by exploding predator populations also, imo, fawn recruitment is essential to at least give this herd a chance. With bears becoming so prevalent with numbers absolutely going through the roof it doesn’t look good. It’s pretty easy to distinguish a cougar kill from a bear kill most of the time. From what we’ve seen/noticed is bears tear the fawn apart, sometimes eating most of it sometimes not, we found 7 fawn kills in a basin this past month, none cached, all tore apart to different degrees, one only had the head eatin and a front leg/shoulder. All of them looked to be killed within the time period of a week or so of each other. Bear crap and bear sign everywhere. I do agree cats are a huge issue, growing bear numbers are now decimating the future of the herd, fawns.👍
Bears may be the next biggest factor.
Show me a bear that kills and eat deer there entire life.
I believe our differences in oppion are the difference in top predator in any given area.
If cougar are absent in any area ,then yes bear would be top.
In the story you describe,when there is an easy meal,bears will take advantage.
But at the end of the day ,cougar kill adult deer ,which has a direct result of how many fawns will even be available for a bear to eat.
Also the predator pit we have now is alot different than pre 90's when hound hunting and bear baiting could keep predators in check. Without these tools ,cougar is king when it comes to deer population.
But this is just my two cents ,everybody has there own👍
Bottom line with which we all agree is predators are a huge problem in this state, all of them, from cats to bears and wolves to coyotes. Predator pit? I think we agree on that also👍
Post by: mcrawfordaf on July 10, 2023, 01:01:48 PM
Same area has PLENTY of fawn and calf carcass all next to bear sign as well.
Post by: baldopepper on July 10, 2023, 02:40:13 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 13, 2023, 03:41:26 PM
While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations.
Post by: Fidelk on July 13, 2023, 04:15:37 PM
Post by: Twispriver on July 13, 2023, 06:36:18 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 13, 2023, 07:08:46 PM
Fawns in April? I always thought they dropped closer to the end of May. :dunno:Depends. Sometimes we would see fawns in April, sometimes in May, sometimes in June. When the reverse migration would start it all depended on weather and moon. We have records of seeing fawns at the beginning of April, I’ve also seen a two week old as late as August. The reverse would start accordingly, depending on weather. We sat on a hill on a route south of Twisp one year (58 or 59) when does were getting out of Dodge in late March, some with wobblers in tow. They would get to staging areas and sit for weeks. I’ve seen migrations heading to “happy places” in June when there was still snow at 3000. Only for moms and babies to halt on a particular knob heading into the Pasayten and spending weeks there. Just when you think you have them figured out. Mother Nature will humble you.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 13, 2023, 07:32:47 PM
Fawns in April? I always thought they dropped closer to the end of May. :dunno:
They do. and into June. Much earlier, and much later will surely see little chance of survival. Remember, deer have been around much longer than any human as we know them, their breeding/gestation period/birthing/mothering etc, knows exactly what to do. and when to do it. The species survival depends on that.
Post by: Twispriver on July 13, 2023, 07:41:46 PM
Post by: baldopepper on July 13, 2023, 09:52:04 PM
While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations.
You have quite the phenomenons in that area. My experiences with mule deer over the years is quite different. Mule deer usually rut somewhat later than whitetails, and around my area you never see fawns until mid May into early June. The does don't have a particular fawning area, they just seem to isolate them selves and you don't usually see them show up with fawns until late June. Even then, they keep pretty much to them selves for another month or so. There isn't any mass migration of the herds, they just seem to kind of melt away to higher country as the weather warms. I've personally never seen herds of does and fawns out prancing around together. Deer have certainly come into closed areas, but so have the predators. They show as regular as the deer on our home security and game cams.
I don't have any for sure answers as to why the major decline in deer numbers, but while I know the growth of predator numbers is part of it, I'm sure that isn't the only cause.
Post by: buckcanyonlodge on July 14, 2023, 05:07:09 AM
While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.
Maybe that is where all my mule deer went. I had a local herd that lived here year round of around 35 deer. That number stayed even for at least 15 years. One year 10 does had 20 fawns and by Nov. there were only 6 left. I am down to 7...yes, 7 mule deer total and 4 does have had5 fawns around Memorial Day. Last year only 2 fawns made it through the winter and are yearlings now. I have been sitting in my front yard and had full grown mule deer run across my lawn with a bear close on it's heals. and, Baldo I know my deer did not come down to your area...just kidding. It's all predators combined..Our herds are in trouble and no one in charge cares....SSS everybody.
Post by: boneaddict on July 14, 2023, 06:48:05 AM
Quote
I'm curious if having this be either a core range of one bear or several will negatively impact the mule deer bucks in this spot[/b]
The answer is still no to your question Ridge. :chuckle:
Cat yes, wolf yes, bear no
Post by: bigmacc on July 14, 2023, 07:27:38 PM
Well, the Methow herd at one time was the largest migratory deer herd in the country, over 40k in its prime. Looking again at grandmas journals (hard to read) most of the reverse migrations would happen in June. The April/May entries are of “local deer” (what she wrote). We are still pouring through these journals of hers, hard to read. I’ve sent pictures to a few, they get it. It was a different time. We are going through writings that are 100 years old, some ledgable some not.While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations.
You have quite the phenomenons in that area. My experiences with mule deer over the years is quite different. Mule deer usually rut somewhat later than whitetails, and around my area you never see fawns until mid May into early June. The does don't have a particular fawning area, they just seem to isolate them selves and you don't usually see them show up with fawns until late June. Even then, they keep pretty much to them selves for another month or so. There isn't any mass migration of the herds, they just seem to kind of melt away to higher country as the weather warms. I've personally never seen herds of does and fawns out prancing around together. Deer have certainly come into closed areas, but so have the predators. They show as regular as the deer on our home security and game cams.
I don't have any for sure answers as to why the major decline in deer numbers, but while I know the growth of predator numbers is part of it, I'm sure that isn't the only cause.
Bottom line, 40plus thousand migrating deer in its prime, now days they “estimate” it at 12-15k. Cats, bears and wolf numbers are through the roof. Imo, 12-15k is WAY optimistic for this herd, our humble estimate, 8-10k, for what it’s worth. A long, long way from the deer my grandparents used to watch back in the day.
Post by: baldopepper on July 14, 2023, 09:00:03 PM
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 15, 2023, 07:43:51 AM
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
Post by: buckfvr on July 15, 2023, 09:53:10 AM
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
All the above. Modern weapons and their capabilities in the hands of a practiced hunter, shooting over bait ??? Anyone who truly knows how to bait effectively, can set 200 yards of a bait in a hide (blind etc) and kill a decent buck so long as you are able to pass the young ones. Spot and stalk, many calibers are slam dunk at 600+ yards, unheard of not many years ago.
Predators are only a problem because of wdfw total lack of management and being politically in total denial.
Add in wdfw management practice and goals like for deer, "high yield of young bucks" yes thats a departmental quote.
There has been some incredible hunting in this state 30-50 years ago, at times when the population (people) was growing but still at half of what it is now and even less than half. Whole areas of this state have been ruined by people. Too many people live on winter range and have destroyed whole herds of deer. :twocents:
Post by: mburrows on July 15, 2023, 04:33:00 PM
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
100% agree with this
Post by: idaho guy on July 15, 2023, 05:36:27 PM
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.
Post by: NOCK NOCK on July 15, 2023, 06:35:11 PM
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.
Thats my whole point.
But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.
Post by: baldopepper on July 15, 2023, 06:55:19 PM
Post by: bigmacc on July 15, 2023, 07:45:14 PM
All due respect.👍 I’ve told this story many times, have shown the pictures to a few. Humans and their encroachment will never rival the abundance of four legged predators. DJ, department of f-and24. , 2979. Killed in a helicopter crash. Now, that was a bunch of jibber jabber. Yes my cousin was a “high up” for a particular game Department. Two masters and a bachelors. Died counting deer. I learned so much from him. Miss him every day. No one will convince me that “people” are the demise of our herds. That’s exactly what the government wants you to believe . My cousin said years ago that what the government wants to do is increase predators, decrease hunting. Well, what’s going on? The state of Washington has had a “silent” agenda against hunting. Any arguments? I’m sure some on here were around back in the 40,s 50,s and 60,s👍 hay day’s correct? Well people moved in right? Over the decades alot of them. Deer and elk still flourished. 1995, what happened? I’ll leave it there. I don’t disagree that people are a problem but if you don’t see that what happened in 95 was the last nail in the coffin of our herds, I don’t know what to tell you. Due respect as hunters 👍It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.
Thats my whole point.
But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.
Post by: baldopepper on July 15, 2023, 08:05:55 PM
Post by: idaho guy on July 15, 2023, 08:08:07 PM
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
THIS :yeah: is SPOT ON
So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc.
Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.
Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.
Thats my whole point.
But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.
I agree 👍
Post by: bigmacc on July 15, 2023, 08:14:11 PM
I respect your opinion bigmac, guess this is one we'll just have to agree to disagree on. Wasn't hunting in the 40's, but was in the 50's till now. Miss the old days of sitting around a campfire arguing things like this with friends and family, tossing back a nightcap and hitting the sleeping bag-everyone still close friends.And I respect yours.👍 You would be welcome in our camp any time and every time.👍
Post by: baldopepper on July 15, 2023, 08:29:36 PM
Thanks-,you get over around Hunters let me know, I'll take you out fishing and we'll see who can tell the biggest tale :)I respect your opinion bigmac, guess this is one we'll just have to agree to disagree on. Wasn't hunting in the 40's, but was in the 50's till now. Miss the old days of sitting around a campfire arguing things like this with friends and family, tossing back a nightcap and hitting the sleeping bag-everyone still close friends.And I respect yours.👍 You would be welcome in our camp any time and every time.👍