Impact of bears on Mule deer

[Twispriver]

That's what I was thinking - to see hundreds of spotted fawns in April the rut would have had to peak in late September or early October

[baldopepper]

While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property.  I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah.  Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs.  I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.

Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations.

You have quite the phenomenons in that area.  My experiences with mule deer over the years is quite different. Mule deer usually rut somewhat later than whitetails, and around my area you never see fawns until mid May into early June.  The does don't have a particular fawning area, they just seem to isolate them selves and you don't usually see them show up with fawns until late June. Even then, they keep pretty much to them selves for another month or so.  There isn't any mass migration of the herds, they just seem to kind of melt away to higher country as the weather warms. I've personally never seen herds of does and fawns out prancing around together.  Deer have certainly come into closed areas, but so have the predators.  They show as regular as the deer on our home security and game cams.
I don't have any for sure answers as to why the major decline in deer numbers, but while I know the growth of predator numbers is part of it, I'm sure that isn't the only cause.
 

[buckcanyonlodge]

While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property.  I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah.  Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs.  I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.

Maybe that is where all my mule deer went. I had a local herd that lived here year round of around 35 deer. That number stayed even for at least 15 years. One year 10 does had 20 fawns and by Nov. there were only 6 left. I am down to 7...yes, 7 mule deer total and 4 does have had5 fawns around Memorial Day. Last year only 2 fawns made it through the winter and are yearlings now. I have been sitting in my front yard and had full grown mule deer run across my lawn with a bear close on it's heals.   and, Baldo I know my deer did not come down to your area...just kidding. It's all predators combined..Our herds are in trouble and no one in charge cares....SSS everybody.

[boneaddict]

I'm curious if having this be either a core range of one bear or several will negatively impact the mule deer bucks in this spot

[/b]


The answer is still no to your question Ridge. 

Cat yes, wolf yes, bear no

[bigmacc]

While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property.  I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah.  Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs.  I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.

Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations.

You have quite the phenomenons in that area.  My experiences with mule deer over the years is quite different. Mule deer usually rut somewhat later than whitetails, and around my area you never see fawns until mid May into early June.  The does don't have a particular fawning area, they just seem to isolate them selves and you don't usually see them show up with fawns until late June. Even then, they keep pretty much to them selves for another month or so.  There isn't any mass migration of the herds, they just seem to kind of melt away to higher country as the weather warms. I've personally never seen herds of does and fawns out prancing around together.  Deer have certainly come into closed areas, but so have the predators.  They show as regular as the deer on our home security and game cams.
I don't have any for sure answers as to why the major decline in deer numbers, but while I know the growth of predator numbers is part of it, I'm sure that isn't the only cause.
 

Well, the Methow herd at one time was the largest migratory deer herd in the country, over 40k in its prime. Looking again at grandmas journals (hard to read) most of the reverse migrations would happen in June.  The April/May entries are of “local deer” (what she wrote). We are still pouring through these journals of hers, hard to read. I’ve sent pictures to a few, they get it. It was a different time. We are going through writings that are 100 years old, some ledgable some not.

Bottom line, 40plus thousand migrating deer in its prime, now days they “estimate” it at 12-15k. Cats, bears and wolf numbers are through the roof. Imo, 12-15k is WAY optimistic for this herd, our humble estimate, 8-10k, for what it’s worth. A long, long way from the deer my grandparents used to watch back in the day.

[baldopepper]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

[NOCK NOCK]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

[buckfvr]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

All the above.  Modern weapons and their capabilities in the hands of a practiced hunter, shooting over bait   Anyone who truly knows how to bait effectively, can set 200 yards of a bait in a hide (blind etc) and kill a decent buck so long as you are able to pass the young ones.  Spot and stalk, many calibers are slam dunk at 600+ yards, unheard of not many years ago.

Predators are only a problem because of wdfw total lack of management and being politically in total denial.

Add in wdfw management practice and goals like for deer, "high yield of young bucks" yes thats a departmental quote.

There has been some incredible hunting in this state 30-50 years ago, at times when the population (people) was growing but still at half of what it is now and even less than half.  Whole areas of this state have been ruined by people.  Too many people live on winter range and have destroyed whole herds of deer.   

[mburrows]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

100% agree with this

[idaho guy]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

   



I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.

[NOCK NOCK]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

   



I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.

Thats my whole point.
But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.

[baldopepper]

Despite what anti hunters might think, hunters and hunting are only a part of the human intrusion on deer and elk herds. The constant pressure in habitat areas, the opening of back country for oil and mineral exploration, homes and clearing of habitat ( both winter and summer areas), increased high speed traffic on rural roads, atv and snowmobil use, hikers and campers clogging trails in ever growing numbers, man caused devastating wildfires- the list of human encroachment goes on. How do explain the vast herds that existed a couple of centuries ago when there was no predator control?  There's no easy answer - you can't forbid people from getting out in the outdoors in whatever lawful way they choose, but we can't discount the toll this has taken on wildlife -especially big game. To lay the demise of the animals strictly on predators is a form of denial.  Man has caused the problem and man can correct it.  Certainly keeping predators in balance is part of the correction, but it's not a cure all.

[bigmacc]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

   



I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.

Thats my whole point.
But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.

All due respect.👍 I’ve told this story many times, have shown the pictures to a few. Humans and their encroachment will never rival the abundance of four legged predators. DJ, department of f-and24. , 2979. Killed in a helicopter crash. Now, that was a bunch of jibber jabber. Yes my cousin was a “high up” for a particular game Department. Two masters and a bachelors. Died counting deer. I learned so much from him. Miss him every day. No one will convince me that “people” are the demise of our herds. That’s exactly what the government wants you to believe . My cousin said years ago that what the government wants to do is increase predators, decrease hunting. Well, what’s going on? The state of Washington has had a “silent” agenda against hunting. Any arguments? I’m sure some on here were around back in the 40,s 50,s and 60,s👍 hay day’s correct?  Well people moved in right? Over the decades alot of them. Deer and elk still flourished. 1995, what happened? I’ll leave it there. I don’t disagree that people are a problem but if you don’t see that what happened in 95 was the last nail in the coffin of our herds, I don’t know what to tell you. Due respect as hunters 👍

[baldopepper]

I respect your opinion bigmac, guess this is one we'll just have to agree to disagree on.  Wasn't hunting in the 40's, but was in the 50's till now. Miss the old days of sitting around a campfire arguing things like this with friends and family, tossing back a nightcap and hitting the sleeping bag-everyone still close friends.

[idaho guy]

It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals.  We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day.  We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure.  Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation.  We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings.  Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar)  Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators

THIS  is SPOT ON

So many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.
Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. 

Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology.

Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.

   



I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.

Thats my whole point.
But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.

 

I agree 👍