Free: Contests & Raffles.
Been singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.
Quote from: bigmacc on July 05, 2023, 07:04:00 PMBeen singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.
Quote from: baldopepper on July 06, 2023, 12:10:30 PMQuote from: bigmacc on July 05, 2023, 07:04:00 PMBeen singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.I was gonna say the same Cougar is king when it comes to killing deer ,fawn or otherwise.
Quote from: hunter399 on July 06, 2023, 01:25:56 PMQuote from: baldopepper on July 06, 2023, 12:10:30 PMQuote from: bigmacc on July 05, 2023, 07:04:00 PMBeen singing this song for a few years now. Bears are impacting mule deer herds in a huge way. They come out of hibernation craving protein, does are dropping fawns, bear numbers are out of control. Fawn crops are being decimated, biologists know this. IMO, over the last 8-10 years bears and cats have been the toughest opponents for mule deer herds. My cousin did a study years ago before he passed stating (in a nut shell) that bears are very negatively influential predators upon mule deer herds. This study was done years ago but I am seeing it today. Fawn carcasses are prevalent in fawning areas that i frequent (Methow), I remember back in the day my cousin and I would walk, we/he would mention things. Back in the 60,s/70,s he always said, “if bear numbers ever get out of control, it will be the demise of our deer herds”. He feared bears, over cougars and other predators. Because they could take 10 fawns in a day when stumbling/sniffing out fawning grounds. Ferocious predators when hungry.If you find a fawn carcass it wasn't a bear When a bear gets done with a fawn there is virtually nothing left. Bear impact on mule deer is minimal compared to cougar impact. Several studies done in Utah that show they are rough on fawns, but a very minimal impact on adult deer.I was gonna say the same Cougar is king when it comes to killing deer ,fawn or otherwise.All due respect 👍. We have found half eaten fawns in “fawning areas”, places where does will congregate with the fawns. We have pictures as well as journal entries going back to 1920 where my great grandmother would love to witness the “reverse migration “. It was her favorite time of year to sit on a hillside and watch the deer including hundreds of fawns make their way to summer “happy places” (what she called it😢). There are journal entries of bears picking off fawns “to the left” and to the right”. They would kill a fawn, tear it apart, move on to another. She said the worst was bears with cubs. Many entries said that was the most hurtful to her. Does would try to protect traveling fawns in groups, only to have a mamma bear kill 4-5 fawns and let the cubs feed. Bears are bad on mule deer, cats are bad on mule deer. Now wolves. Most of her entries were from vicious bear kills, some to the point she said she had to look away, only to turn back and see the same bear kill another fawn.
And I love seeing on tonights KIRO news all the bears in peoples yardsNot mule deer I knowBut just sayin
Cougar kill deer 24/7 .....365 days a year.Bears may be the next biggest factor.Show me a bear that kills and eat deer there entire life.I believe our differences in oppion are the difference in top predator in any given area.If cougar are absent in any area ,then yes bear would be top.In the story you describe,when there is an easy meal,bears will take advantage.But at the end of the day ,cougar kill adult deer ,which has a direct result of how many fawns will even be available for a bear to eat.Also the predator pit we have now is alot different than pre 90's when hound hunting and bear baiting could keep predators in check. Without these tools ,cougar is king when it comes to deer population.But this is just my two cents ,everybody has there own👍
While I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.
Fawns in April? I always thought they dropped closer to the end of May.
Quote from: baldopepper on July 10, 2023, 02:40:13 PMWhile I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations.
I'm curious if having this be either a core range of one bear or several will negatively impact the mule deer bucks in this spot
Quote from: bigmacc on July 13, 2023, 03:41:26 PMQuote from: baldopepper on July 10, 2023, 02:40:13 PMWhile I don't mean to down play entirely the predator effect onour deer and elk herds I do have one big question. Why are the herds maintaining, and in fact growing, in areas with large tracts of private, no hunting property. I've seen it in my general area of eastern wa and especially so around around the cmu units in Utah. Obviously predators don't pay attention to the signs. I've seen the mule deer herds around my house grow from a winter group of 10-12 twenty years ago, to now over 150. Not in any way suggesting no hunting, but thinking human encouragement and over hunting have played a big part in public land herd diminishment.Just my opinion 👍 Deer are getting pushed onto private property, into towns, into yards etc because they are figuring out the four legged predators that are pursuing them year round are more harmful to them than the two legged. We used to have a fawning area that we would take all the youngsters to in April, it was a short 1 mile or so hike but we would see literally 100,s of fawns, still in spots. We would all sit on a hillside, sometimes 20-30 of us eating lunch and watching. This was back in the 60,s. We stayed our distance and enjoyed. They would hang around for hours with their fawns then slowly disappear into the thickets, never afraid of us, just letting the fawns get some sun, browse and be able to play. I can guarantee if we were a group of cats, or bears or yotes, or wolves watching those herds in April from less than 100 yards away, those does would have gotten those babies out of there. Too many predators now days. Private property, towns, heck, people are becoming a sanctuary from being pursued 24/7/365 by exploding and expanding predator populations. You have quite the phenomenons in that area. My experiences with mule deer over the years is quite different. Mule deer usually rut somewhat later than whitetails, and around my area you never see fawns until mid May into early June. The does don't have a particular fawning area, they just seem to isolate them selves and you don't usually see them show up with fawns until late June. Even then, they keep pretty much to them selves for another month or so. There isn't any mass migration of the herds, they just seem to kind of melt away to higher country as the weather warms. I've personally never seen herds of does and fawns out prancing around together. Deer have certainly come into closed areas, but so have the predators. They show as regular as the deer on our home security and game cams.I don't have any for sure answers as to why the major decline in deer numbers, but while I know the growth of predator numbers is part of it, I'm sure that isn't the only cause.
It's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predators
Quote from: baldopepper on July 14, 2023, 09:00:03 PMIt's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predatorsTHIS is SPOT ONSo many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology. Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do.
Quote from: NOCK NOCK on July 15, 2023, 07:43:51 AMQuote from: baldopepper on July 14, 2023, 09:00:03 PMIt's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predatorsTHIS is SPOT ONSo many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology. Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do. I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.
Quote from: idaho guy on July 15, 2023, 05:36:27 PMQuote from: NOCK NOCK on July 15, 2023, 07:43:51 AMQuote from: baldopepper on July 14, 2023, 09:00:03 PMIt's very depressing to see areas that held big numbers of deer now nearly void of animals. We hunted for 30 years an area in Southern Utah where years ago it was not unusual to see 200-300 deer per day. We quit going there 3 years ago when on a 4 day hunt we saw less than a dozen deer. What happened? We"re not sure. Utah has extremely liberal regulations on predator hunting, keeping them pretty well under control so we've kind of ruled out depradation. We suspect a couple of things. CWD hit this area very hard and the area has been over run with people on various outdoor outings. Area is crawling with people year around now as southern Utah has become a major hot spot for various non hunting outdoor people. Utah DFW has no answers and in fact generally thinks the herd is in good shape (sound familiar) Restrictive cwmu:s in the area still have decent herds and the only difference between them and the public ground is the lack of human encouragement. As I've said before. I have no for sure answers, but starting to suspect more and more that people intrusions are responsible for the declines more than predatorsTHIS is SPOT ONSo many are quick to blame the predators(Wolf-Cat-Bear) yet the same folks never complain much about the biggest predator.....HUMANS.Nature is a balancing act, ALL living critters(us too) need food to survive and populate. It's been quite a few years now that folks have been screaming PREDATOR PIT. Cats/bears/Wolfs are out of control, 20 in every canyon/decimating the herds/etc. Preds. need to eat. So if the herds are so very dismal....what are the preds. surviving/multiplying on? You simply cannot have preds multiplying existentially without food to help them do it. YES, I agree, our deer herds are in the dumps, but that cannot be blamed solely on the "predator pit" ideology. Long range rifles, incredible bows, much more acurate smokepoles, all around better tech & equip., massive fires that open up country, expansion of folks into outlying areas, tribal overtake, poaching, poor management by WDFW, this list goes on......................This is the main contributing factor to the poor deer population, preds have a part in that, but not nearlt as much as WE do. I don’t disagree that over hunting decimates game herds. Thats a game department problem. I have a hard time thinking a hunter ( who’s regulated) killing 1 deer comes even close to 1 lion that will average 52 per year. No way to regulate predators. Take more than 1 lion and throw in wolves, coyotes and bears it’s a total disaster. Predators have to be controlled by effective hunting seasons and rules. Predators will increase until,Eventually , the prey base will disappear and everything dies. Not a very good way to manage wildlife but nature will correct itself. That’s just a stupid thing to let happen.Thats my whole point. But its not just the hunting, all other human activities are a part of it. I agree preds are a problem, just not THE SOLE problem.
I respect your opinion bigmac, guess this is one we'll just have to agree to disagree on. Wasn't hunting in the 40's, but was in the 50's till now. Miss the old days of sitting around a campfire arguing things like this with friends and family, tossing back a nightcap and hitting the sleeping bag-everyone still close friends.
Quote from: baldopepper on July 15, 2023, 08:05:55 PMI respect your opinion bigmac, guess this is one we'll just have to agree to disagree on. Wasn't hunting in the 40's, but was in the 50's till now. Miss the old days of sitting around a campfire arguing things like this with friends and family, tossing back a nightcap and hitting the sleeping bag-everyone still close friends.And I respect yours.👍 You would be welcome in our camp any time and every time.👍