Post by: shanevg on September 23, 2024, 03:34:10 PM
I just heard that the Baker tags are probably gone for good after yet another nanny was shot last week. This following a year last year when 4 nannies were shot out of 6 total goat harvests.
Please for the love of God, stop applying for goat tags if you aren't ready for a goat hunt!
If you do draw a goat tag, please, please, please, please please please (can I say that enough) make sure you're shooting a billy if you harvest a goat. There is absolutely no excuse in any circumstance to shoot a nanny with WA goat herd numbers suffering the way they are right now.
While we're at it - let's bust a few myths about goats.
1. There is no such thing as a "dry nanny". Kid survival rates in a HEALTHY herd (which our WA herds are not) is 20%. If you see a nanny during hunting season with no kid, it's more often than not, the result of their kid dying, not a "dry" nanny.
2. Research has very clearly shown in fact that goat fecundity INCREASES with age. (i.e. the older the nanny, the better chance they are to birth a kid) and kid survival is 3-4x higher for older goats (7 years old +) as opposed to younger goats.
3. Learn how to age goats. I've seen at least 2 nannies in recent years where the hunter claims they are 10-12 years old and "dry". Like sheep, not all rings are age rings. Every little line on a horn does not indicate a year of age. Ultimately, you don't need to be able to age a goat to hunt them, but don't justify an idiotic decision to yourself by trying to convince yourself that it's an "old" or "dry" goat and you are therefore justified in shooting this nanny. You aren't.
No animal other than maybe a bear is as hard to identify male vs. female as is a goat, and no other animal is as susceptible to overharvest and female harvest as goat herds. If you are going to draw tag, you are part of the conservation movement, you owe it not just to yourself but all other hunters and anyone who cares about the species to do your due diligence in sex identification. If there is any doubt, don't pull the trigger. It's better to eat tag soup than shoot a nanny by a long shot!
If we have any goat tags left next year, I'd strongly encourage anyone considering to apply to take a good long hard look at yourself in the mirror. These goat hunts have always been hard and difficult and that was when herds were doing well. I now see 20-30 goats on a good trip in areas where 5 years ago I saw 80-100. Finding a billy has gone from a gimme to a real challenge. Most units in the state does not have outfitters so if you're going to be in over your head, maybe put in for points only for a while and hope these herds can rebound!
And if you are a tag holder this year, PLEASE DON'T SHOOT A NANNY!!!
Post by: Rainier10 on September 23, 2024, 03:49:14 PM
But seriously this is very important. @jackelope was going to eat his tag before shooting a nanny. Before shooting his goat we watched it for quite awhile comparing all kinds of photos and diagrams. He wouldn’t shoot until we confirmed like four or five sure signs it was a Billy. Goat hunting is tough and needs to be taken seriously. This is a hunt that is more about shooting the right goat than shooting a goat.
Post by: shanevg on September 23, 2024, 04:01:26 PM
https://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/hunting/goathunting/pdfs/goat_long_quiz_for_web.pdf
https://exomtngear.com/blogs/article/billy-or-nanny-how-to-identify-mountain-goats
Post by: jackelope on September 23, 2024, 04:01:35 PM
Post by: GOcougsHunter on September 23, 2024, 04:23:09 PM
If you get the chance all, read the book "A Beast the Color of Winter" Very very enlightening.
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on September 23, 2024, 04:56:48 PM
Side note and hope it pertains: What is the cause for decline of the goat herds? I guess I assumed that while not biologically beneficial for the herd to shoot nannies, the tightly controlled tag numbers would take nanny harvest into account. I certainly did not expect an impact that significant ( to be fair i had no idea that many hunters were taking nannies, it seems counter intuitive). Is there any other reason for the over 50 percent drop in herd numbers?
Post by: Timber on September 23, 2024, 04:58:37 PM
Post by: GOcougsHunter on September 23, 2024, 05:03:04 PM
Couldn't agree more. Hard to see why you would not harvest a billy on a OIL opportunity.
Side note and hope it pertains: What is the cause for decline of the goat herds? I guess I assumed that while not biologically beneficial for the herd to shoot nannies, the tightly controlled tag numbers would take nanny harvest into account. I certainly did not expect an impact that significant ( to be fair i had no idea that many hunters were taking nannies, it seems counter intuitive). Is there any other reason for the over 50 percent drop in herd numbers?
Game Status and Trend reports every year by the WDFW has some insight. While not even closely complete, it does speak to some of the things they are looking at.
I think predation is having a greater role than is currently being communicated. (Just the opinion of an arm chair biologist with no training whatsoever)
Post by: MADMAX on September 23, 2024, 05:12:59 PM
Post by: RB on September 23, 2024, 05:18:30 PM
Post by: storyteller on September 23, 2024, 07:30:45 PM
Post by: GWP on September 23, 2024, 07:38:55 PM
Post by: storyteller on September 23, 2024, 07:48:14 PM
Post by: Houndhunter on September 23, 2024, 07:51:17 PM
Post by: Dan-o on September 23, 2024, 08:08:35 PM
It really makes it clear to a non-goat guy like me just how damaging it is to shoot Nannies.
If anyone has it, it would be a great add to this thread.
Post by: blacktailer on September 23, 2024, 08:23:45 PM
Post by: Tbar on September 23, 2024, 08:25:53 PM
Post by: Slamadoo on September 23, 2024, 08:28:52 PM
I'm not promoting hunters shooting nannies, but I have spent a small amount of time with goats in my glass and it isn't that easy. A good goat hunter should be aware of this so personal responsibility is important.
However, there is ZERO chance that the rapid and steep decline of goat numbers is due to a few nannies being shot by hunters. There are other things that hunt them 365 as well as likely environmental factors.
Post by: Dan-o on September 23, 2024, 08:34:06 PM
...
That's the graph!
Thanks.
Post by: ipkus on September 23, 2024, 08:40:57 PM
There is indeed something serious going on in Washington that started fairly recently that’s had a major impact on goat populations. I suspect it’s predator related hence the silence from WDfW. But it could be other things as well, but don’t tell me climate change…
Even before the steep decline Washington had the highest goat population in the lower 48 and still had the lowest number of tags. How were Utah and Wyoming and every other states goat populations still relatively stable at lower levels while harvesting more goats than Washington every year???
The transplant operations from the Olympics and the follow up was a complete disaster that no one has answered for.
So, with all of that said, shooting nannie’s is a huge negative and should be avoided at all costs. I’m totally for requiring an ID class prior to hunting like some other states have done even though I hate government oversight.
Even with the stupid amount of nannie’s getting shot, something far bigger is going on in WA and I have very little faith in WDFW to figure it out…or fess up if they already know.
Post by: shanevg on September 23, 2024, 08:42:23 PM
I'm sure the 4 legged predators of Goat also know not to eat the nannies.
I'm not promoting hunters shooting nannies, but I have spent a small amount of time with goats in my glass and it isn't that easy. A good goat hunter should be aware of this so personal responsibility is important.
However, there is ZERO chance that the rapid and steep decline of goat numbers is due to a few nannies being shot by hunters. There are other things that hunt them 365 as well as likely environmental factors.
Steep decline in goats is probably attributed to combination of draught and post-Covid steep increase in hiking pressure in core areas pushing goats to non-traditional habitat (timber). Combine that with increased predator numbers and goats living in habitat they aren’t adapted to avoid predators in and we have recipe for rapid decline. Of course the introduction of grizzlies isn’t going to help at all.
There is of course also a possibility of disease or other issue that we just aren’t aware of yet.
The nanny harvest in recent years isn’t the cause for the decline but goat herds are shown to be very susceptible to over harvest and nanny harvest in particular compared to other ungulates. So when you have a herd that has dropped in 4 years from 350 to 120 and then take out 6 nannies in 2 years you have a very noticeable impact on the herd.
Honestly I’ve been told the only reason we still had tags the last couple years is because they know hunters aren’t the cause of the decline, but that’s no longer true with very (statistically) high nanny harvest.
I suspect goat hunting in Baker units is done for good at this point.
I also suspect we’re going to start seeing a permit system for hikers to access the Ptarmigan Ridge/Artist Point area in particular.
Post by: ipkus on September 23, 2024, 08:52:22 PM
Post by: ipkus on September 23, 2024, 08:53:42 PM
Post by: Caseknife on September 23, 2024, 08:59:22 PM
I can attest to the high amounts of people in the area, one evening there were 35 tents at Goat Lake, way overrun with people that have no idea of the flora and fauna they are traipsing through.
The bio did test for movi when I checked it in. Whether that is the cause of decline, don't know. During the aerial survey when we were scouting in early August, they counted 120 goats between the two Goat Rock units and that is what it has been for the last few years.
Post by: ballpark on September 24, 2024, 07:45:53 AM
Doesn't the Olympic Mountains have an overpopulation of goats? I remember a couple years ago opening it up to thin the numbers?
Post by: Rainier10 on September 24, 2024, 07:48:53 AM
They did and then they tried relocating them. The move was an epic fail, most of the goats died the first year.
Doesn't the Olympic Mountains have an overpopulation of goats? I remember a couple years ago opening it up to thin the numbers?
Post by: HighCountryHunter88 on September 24, 2024, 07:52:29 AM
What's killing the goats off? It's been a quite awhile since I've spent time in the state where goats live but I've seen this topic brought up several times. I would assume if hunters killing nannies is detrimental in specific areas then they wouldn't allow any season. Going back to when I hunted goat rocks wilderness it was a joke how few tags they would issue compared to a huge goat population yet I'd still hear people say don't shoot a nanny.... And I'm sure things are different now and maybe the populations aren't what I used to witness but is hunters shooting nannies really an issue or is it something else causing a decline to the goat herds?
the goat rocks population has crashed pretty hard in recent years
Post by: LDennis24 on September 24, 2024, 07:59:18 AM
Post by: dwils233 on September 24, 2024, 08:38:16 AM
I wish I still had my mountain goat regs from , I think it was 1977, back then there were tons of goat units, the unit I hunted was up by Mount Ditney, another hunter's parents posted a wood sign about him, he was hunting never came back, never found either. There was lots of goats, these were good units to hunt. It is probably why they got rid of the units. More units to hunt, less people in state, I was 22 at the time, no social media, no videos to watch, I got my goat, yes it is a nanny. I have not put in for another goat tag but I could, mine was not a OIL. Not really interested in hunting them now. Liberty mountain, tupso pass, ditney, I think it was area 10
I also have heard that back in the day the regs were incredibly liberal for goats....like over the counter and maybe even two tags in some areas?
I can't imagine we'd be where we are today if we hadn't hammered populations 40+ years ago. These are all compounding effects after all. Shooting nannies might be the last straw, but it's not the root issue, ight not have a root issue at all. It's a habitat dependent species with low fecundity and their habitat is incredibly fragile to changing temperatures and season shifts. Add it all together and it's a recipe for collapse
Post by: Rainier10 on September 24, 2024, 08:47:11 AM
Post by: Sneaky Squirrel on September 24, 2024, 09:01:15 AM
Lots of factors play a role but we need to control what we can. As hunters/conservationists making sure we shoot billies should be our number one goal, not “filling a tag”
I agree with trying to harvest only a billy but the reality of never getting another opportunity in WA to hunt goats, i bet that plays into people shooting nannies. I would put this more on the department for offering tags. If the herd can't handle a nannie getting harvested, there should be a season. Reminds me of the mule deer herd in central WA with there doe tags.
Post by: dwils233 on September 24, 2024, 09:10:46 AM
Lots of factors play a role but we need to control what we can. As hunters/conservationists making sure we shoot billies should be our number one goal, not “filling a tag”
I agree with trying to harvest only a billy but the reality of never getting another opportunity in WA to hunt goats, i bet that plays into people shooting nannies. I would put this more on the department for offering tags. If the herd can't handle a nannie getting harvested, there should be a season. Reminds me of the mule deer herd in central WA with there doe tags.
Bingo. It's really sad, because in an alternate world hunters could lobby for a 5 year moratorium on goat hunting to see if numbers can bump back up a bit. But we won't do that because there's no guarantee politically that we'd get the season back even if populations improved, and there's no biological guarantee that they would improve either. So everyone is just trying to get theirs now, damn the consequences.
And there's no judgement really in saying that, because if I drew a goat tag, I don't think I'd pass on it either....
Post by: shortyp on September 24, 2024, 09:28:29 AM
Post by: blackveltbowhunter on September 24, 2024, 09:35:16 AM
Post by: shortyp on September 24, 2024, 09:37:12 AM
Would it help if the game department went back to the old way, where if a hunter didn't kill they could continue to apply? I understand the odds are terrible, but maybe a potential nanny shooter would rethink knowing they could continue to apply.
Exactly!!
Post by: Sneaky Squirrel on September 24, 2024, 09:42:06 AM
Would it help if the game department went back to the old way, where if a hunter didn't kill they could continue to apply? I understand the odds are terrible, but maybe a potential nanny shooter would rethink knowing they could continue to apply.
Step in the right direction but i don't think it would help. Odds are beyond terrible, declining herds, lees tags and more applications, are only making odds worse to be able to draw again.
Post by: Whitpirate on September 24, 2024, 09:59:57 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on September 24, 2024, 11:49:45 AM
I am all for harvesting billys only, but like others have said this is hunters getting the blame for something we are not causing. Based on studies from other states, my guess is lions are playing a major role here but they will never admit that
Post by: fishngamereaper on September 24, 2024, 12:03:16 PM
How is it that Colorado has been killing over 70 (yes seventy) nannies a year for quite some time now despite having a lower overall goat population than WA? Shouldn't their herd be disastrously crashing if hunters harvesting 3-5 nannies a year is causing this in WA?
I am all for harvesting billys only but like others have said, this is hunters getting the blame something we are not causing. My guess is lions are playing a major role here, which they will never admit
:yeah:
Absolutely should focus on billies but if someone harvests a legal animal who are we to judge.
It's also a little easier to say don't shot this or that if you've already been a successful hunter.
I think Hunter harvest is definitely a factor but a small one...it's one maybe two goats per unit..
Lots of other things in play that would probably benefit goats more.
I think it's also important to question DFW stats.
I know of harvest reports that show nannies killed but personally know of billies being killed in the units.
I don't know why DFW would mis represent harvest but they have.
Maybe we should get the guys that "planted" goats out on the OP to get back at it.
At least that herd was thriving....until the state killed em all.
Post by: jackelope on September 24, 2024, 01:05:54 PM
I don’t have the regs in front of me but are nannies legal to shoot by the regs?
Yes.
Post by: 2MANY on September 24, 2024, 01:09:55 PM
Nannies can create a ton of problems.
Choose wisely.
Post by: bear on September 24, 2024, 01:44:15 PM
How is it that Colorado has been killing over 70 (yes seventy) nannies a year for quite some time now despite having a lower overall goat population than WA? Shouldn't their herd be disastrously crashing if hunters harvesting 3-5 nannies a year is causing this in WA?
I am all for harvesting billys only but like others have said, this is hunters getting the blame something we are not causing. My guess is lions are playing a major role here, which they will never admit
:yeah:
Absolutely should focus on billies but if someone harvests a legal animal who are we to judge.
It's also a little easier to say don't shot this or that if you've already been a successful hunter.
I think Hunter harvest is definitely a factor but a small one...it's one maybe two goats per unit..
Lots of other things in play that would probably benefit goats more.
I think it's also important to question DFW stats.
I know of harvest reports that show nannies killed but personally know of billies being killed in the units.
I don't know why DFW would mis represent harvest but they have.
Maybe we should get the guys that "planted" goats out on the OP to get back at it.
At least that herd was thriving....until the state killed em all.
:yeah: This guy gets it
Post by: Tbar on September 24, 2024, 01:47:17 PM
How is it that Colorado has been killing over 70 (yes seventy) nannies a year for quite some time now despite having a lower overall goat population than WA? Shouldn't their herd be disastrously crashing if hunters harvesting 3-5 nannies a year is causing this in WA?Colorado is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't see a lot of conservation parallels but it does make a case for assisted migration and conservation introduction. This is something that's not welcomed with open arms here, actually quite the opposite where the feds eradicated non native goats from the op.
I am all for harvesting billys only, but like others have said this is hunters getting the blame for something we are not causing. Based on studies from other states, my guess is lions are playing a major role here but they will never admit that
Post by: Mtnwalker on September 24, 2024, 02:00:09 PM
How is it that Colorado has been killing over 70 (yes seventy) nannies a year for quite some time now despite having a lower overall goat population than WA? Shouldn't their herd be disastrously crashing if hunters harvesting 3-5 nannies a year is causing this in WA?Colorado is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't see a lot of conservation parallels but it does make a case for assisted migration and conservation introduction. This is something that's not welcomed with open arms here, actually quite the opposite where the feds eradicated non native goats from the op.
I am all for harvesting billys only, but like others have said this is hunters getting the blame for something we are not causing. Based on studies from other states, my guess is lions are playing a major role here but they will never admit that
Can you elaborate on that a bit more? Seems to me like they're dealing with the same climate change, the same (if not more) recreational pressure in the high country, and about to be dealing with the same bans on predator and hound hunting that we already are. As far as I know they haven't been translocated since the 70's. Apples to oranges in what manner?
Post by: Tbar on September 24, 2024, 02:49:34 PM
Post by: Tbar on September 24, 2024, 02:57:43 PM
Completely different (and changing) environments. I wish we knew more about what drives goat population in the alpine climates and micro climates. No data to back up the next statement but an acknowledgment in many discussions including around conservation introduction, that climate change is not all bad. Quite the opposite in many cases where species become more viable in certain environments.How is it that Colorado has been killing over 70 (yes seventy) nannies a year for quite some time now despite having a lower overall goat population than WA? Shouldn't their herd be disastrously crashing if hunters harvesting 3-5 nannies a year is causing this in WA?Colorado is an apples to oranges comparison. I don't see a lot of conservation parallels but it does make a case for assisted migration and conservation introduction. This is something that's not welcomed with open arms here, actually quite the opposite where the feds eradicated non native goats from the op.
I am all for harvesting billys only, but like others have said this is hunters getting the blame for something we are not causing. Based on studies from other states, my guess is lions are playing a major role here but they will never admit that
Can you elaborate on that a bit more? Seems to me like they're dealing with the same climate change, the same (if not more) recreational pressure in the high country, and about to be dealing with the same bans on predator and hound hunting that we already are. As far as I know they haven't been translocated since the 70's. Apples to oranges in what manner?
Post by: hunter399 on September 24, 2024, 03:27:10 PM
Shouldn't permit numbers been lowered .
We are kinda seeing the same here in NE With moose.
You hardly see moose any more,yet the first person blamed is hunters. Yet the predator/prey study shows moose as preferred for wolves. Permit numbers haven't been lowered.
Hunter's will pay the price in loss of opportunities at the end of the day.
Post by: ipkus on September 24, 2024, 04:09:01 PM
And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies. I mean;
Wolf?
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand. Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?
Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state. Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?
Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?
Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?
I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.
Post by: GOcougsHunter on September 24, 2024, 04:31:31 PM
Post by: LDennis24 on September 24, 2024, 04:55:22 PM
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/industry/agriculture-seafood/animals-and-crops/animal-production/sheep-and-goats/mycoplasma-ovipneumoniae
Post by: shanevg on September 24, 2024, 05:25:37 PM
There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers. It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.
And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies. I mean;
Wolf?
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand. Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?
Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state. Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?
Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?
Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?
I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.
I can speak directly to the Mt Baker goat herds when it comes to hiker pressure. In a recent Saturday hiking the Ptarmigan Ridge trail (core access for the Avalanche Gorge Unit) I encountered more than 1400 hikers in a single day. The lake at the end of the trail (where may past goats have been shot) used to have no trail. Now there is a well defined trail down to the lake and on average there are 15-20 tents around the lake each night. It is not abnormal to encounter cars parked on both sides of the road from the Mt. Baker Ski area all the way to Artist Point on fall weekends something which was absoltely unheard of pre-Covid. I've probably hiked that trail 50-100 times in my life and I can tell you there is a VERY significant increase in recreational user in the last decade let alone the last 4 years.
Hiking pressure is without a doubt having a MAJOR impact on the Mt. Baker goat herds.
So are cougars.
I don't think wolves are (yet.) I have too many trail cams in the area and have only seen lone wolves once every few years in goat country for that to be a factor.
Again, I want to be very clear. The hunter nanny harvest is not the reason for the population declines. But it is the tipping point that is going to cost us our opportunity to hunt this herd in the future. For years, I would have discussions with bios about how hunters were not hurting goat populations and they agreed. But now that such a high percentage of harvested goats are nannies, they have no choice but to shut down the hunt. It's a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem. It doesn't change how detrimental the action is to a fragile herd as well as to the optics of hunters as conservationists, particularly to the game commission.
Post by: Threewolves on September 24, 2024, 06:12:21 PM
Another thought, anyone have any idea how many MT goats the natives take? No idea? neither does WDFW or maybe they do and just have not responded to my request. I don't think the tribe collects the information or reports it to the state. I know some Nisqually's have taken a few only because they told me. Bolt decision says they can.
Post by: ghosthunter on September 24, 2024, 06:19:05 PM
There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers. It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.
And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies. I mean;
Wolf?
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand. Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?
Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state. Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?
Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?
Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?
I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.
I can speak directly to the Mt Baker goat herds when it comes to hiker pressure. In a recent Saturday hiking the Ptarmigan Ridge trail (core access for the Avalanche Gorge Unit) I encountered more than 1400 hikers in a single day. The lake at the end of the trail (where may past goats have been shot) used to have no trail. Now there is a well defined trail down to the lake and on average there are 15-20 tents around the lake each night. It is not abnormal to encounter cars parked on both sides of the road from the Mt. Baker Ski area all the way to Artist Point on fall weekends something which was absoltely unheard of pre-Covid. I've probably hiked that trail 50-100 times in my life and I can tell you there is a VERY significant increase in recreational user in the last decade let alone the last 4 years.
Hiking pressure is without a doubt having a MAJOR impact on the Mt. Baker goat herds.
So are cougars.
I don't think wolves are (yet.) I have too many trail cams in the area and have only seen lone wolves once every few years in goat country for that to be a factor.
Again, I want to be very clear. The hunter nanny harvest is not the reason for the population declines. But it is the tipping point that is going to cost us our opportunity to hunt this herd in the future. For years, I would have discussions with bios about how hunters were not hurting goat populations and they agreed. But now that such a high percentage of harvested goats are nannies, they have no choice but to shut down the hunt. It's a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem. It doesn't change how detrimental the action is to a fragile herd as well as to the optics of hunters as conservationists, particularly to the game commission.
And thus you have touched on the problem for the entire state and declines herds of mule deer, elk, goats ect. Too many folks.
Encroachment into areas were only a few ventured, now hordes of folks on foot, bike, motors, and buildings. Any trail head along North Cascades is three times over full. With them comes wear and tear on the environment along with garbage and waste. And disruption of game herds.
The demand which once eased in fall or winter is now year round with snow machines, snowshoers and other winter users.
We are past the time where not only Nannie’s should be shot, but all female deer or elk should not be hunted until herds rebound. It is even more tedious with a Game Commission who loves predators.
Post by: CarbonHunter on September 24, 2024, 06:36:52 PM
There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers. It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.
And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies. I mean;
Wolf?
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand. Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?
Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state. Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?
Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?
Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?
I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.
Poaching and tribal hunting is definitely having an impact on all trophy species. There is no accurate way to measure the harvest by these 2 factors but when the population surveys of the herds show a decrease in trophy animals while the population of yearlings and females stay within expectations you can guarantee it’s poaching and over hunting. I haven’t seen any published harvest reports to suggest that state sanctioned seasons have lead to over harvest.
The goat herds are suffering from several factors from what I have heard and I think it maybe an all of the above issue.
Post by: storyteller on September 24, 2024, 07:51:56 PM
Post by: ipkus on September 24, 2024, 08:19:03 PM
There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers. It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.
And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies. I mean;
Wolf?
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand. Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?
Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state. Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?
Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?
Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?
I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.
I can speak directly to the Mt Baker goat herds when it comes to hiker pressure. In a recent Saturday hiking the Ptarmigan Ridge trail (core access for the Avalanche Gorge Unit) I encountered more than 1400 hikers in a single day. The lake at the end of the trail (where may past goats have been shot) used to have no trail. Now there is a well defined trail down to the lake and on average there are 15-20 tents around the lake each night. It is not abnormal to encounter cars parked on both sides of the road from the Mt. Baker Ski area all the way to Artist Point on fall weekends something which was absoltely unheard of pre-Covid. I've probably hiked that trail 50-100 times in my life and I can tell you there is a VERY significant increase in recreational user in the last decade let alone the last 4 years.
Hiking pressure is without a doubt having a MAJOR impact on the Mt. Baker goat herds.
So are cougars.
I don't think wolves are (yet.) I have too many trail cams in the area and have only seen lone wolves once every few years in goat country for that to be a factor.
Again, I want to be very clear. The hunter nanny harvest is not the reason for the population declines. But it is the tipping point that is going to cost us our opportunity to hunt this herd in the future. For years, I would have discussions with bios about how hunters were not hurting goat populations and they agreed. But now that such a high percentage of harvested goats are nannies, they have no choice but to shut down the hunt. It's a symptom of the problem, not the cause of the problem. It doesn't change how detrimental the action is to a fragile herd as well as to the optics of hunters as conservationists, particularly to the game commission.
I’m not saying your specific example is wrong, or that it isn’t impacting the goat population there. The drop is dramatic across the state, and all of the goat habitat isn’t getting hammered that hard. Additionally, ONP has been heavily hiked for as long as I’ve been alive and that population was thriving even with all the hikers until the government did their usual and “fixed” it. 🙄
Something more is at play here…
Post by: shanevg on September 24, 2024, 08:38:10 PM
Post by: Tbar on September 24, 2024, 08:40:51 PM
I can speak to tribal hunting on baker and surrounding areas. It is reported, and it is down significantly from historical highs. You will not get disagreement on predation. Cats are the most likely culprit but there has to be more. If you think hiker pressure is not a driver I urge you to hike from artists point. Over the weekend the bathroom lines more than a city block long. There has been a dramatic post covid boom in rec users on all public lands it is really unimaginable unless you see it for yourself. Central cascades are also not immune from the pressures. This is a difficult topic but it's flat out wrong to shy away from the fact that the single variable hunters have control of is male harvest. If people who are lucky enough to draw these tags do their due diligence they become ambassadors and advocates to perpetuate opportunities vs limiting factors.There is no way climate or hiker interaction has changed so drastically in the last 10 years to cause the decline WA is seeing in goat numbers. It is predator or possibly disease (no evidence of this) induced.
And by predator I don't mean 11 people with permits shooting 5 nannies. I mean;
Wolf?
Certainly a new player on the block in this region who's numbers continue to rapidly expand. Are wolves here having a larger affect on our goat population than state's that have had substantial numbers of them for much longer?
Cougar?
We all know there is an extremely robust cougar population in this state. Because there are so many and they are left almost unchecked, are the juvenile males being pushed off of the best habitat by larger males encroaching into mountain goat territory they normally didn't spend as much time in?
Poaching?
Due to the nature of their remote and often hard to access territory has poaching taken a substantial uptick in recent years?
Tribal Hunting?
Has this increased significantly in ways that aren't being measured or reported?
I don't know and don't pretend to know the answer, but common sense tells me it's not just 'climate change' and I don't know of any historical disease issues with goats that would drive down their numbers so quickly.
Poaching and tribal hunting is definitely having an impact on all trophy species. There is no accurate way to measure the harvest by these 2 factors but when the population surveys of the herds show a decrease in trophy animals while the population of yearlings and females stay within expectations you can guarantee it’s poaching and over hunting. I haven’t seen any published harvest reports to suggest that state sanctioned seasons have lead to over harvest.
The goat herds are suffering from several factors from what I have heard and I think it maybe an all of the above issue.
Post by: Slamadoo on September 24, 2024, 09:34:05 PM
This summer I hiked up into the Goat Rocks for a few days and there were quite a few people up there too. We camped 1 night at Goat Lake and there were probably 15-20 people who slept in that basin that night.
It's funny how much blame hunters get from antis and even our own commission about decreasing herds of all sorts. But we are the only ones (and target shooters) putting any real money into the pot. All the "wildlife watchers" they sight aren't putting any money towards conservation. These REI hikers aren't either and as a group they are doing WAY more degradation to these areas than hunters.
I still think predators (likely cats) are playing a major role here. WDFW will never admit that.
Post by: jackelope on September 24, 2024, 09:41:40 PM
Post by: fishngamereaper on September 25, 2024, 06:27:25 AM
But I don't like Hunter's telling other Hunter's what they should or shouldn't do with a legal tag.
If a guy or gal has been hunting hard with a tag that took two decades to draw, and time is running out, the situation is perfect, recovery is easy etc..and they decide on a nanny so be it.
Why should we as Hunter's peer pressure the one tag holder in a unit to fall on the sword in the name of conservation and eat a dream tag ..
Worse yet why should we tell people to not apply if they can't be 100 percent on ID. Does the State require that? We making rules beyond what the state requires.
If the State wants to go that route fine...if they deem it's necessary I'm all in. But until then.
I'm not the utmost authority on goats but I've spent enough time in goat country over 30 plus years I've learned a few things..
People pressure is a tough one...goats actually kinda like people..from the ONP, to the enchantments, to Glacier NP I've seen goats thrive in popular tourist spots.
Killing nannies...one nanny from a herd every few years isn't decreasing the herd population substantially enough to make a impact. IMO...and justify a closure.
My evidence.....I watch herds throughout the State..some haven't been hunted by DFW issued tag holders for 6-8 years...some 10-15....some never...
For some reason those herds aren't blowing up.. could they handle having a tag issued for them.. absolutely..but they aren't growing exponentially.( One of my biggest frustrations is available huntable herds but the State refuses to issue tags... :'(...)
Predators... definitely an issue. I've seen more cat sign and bears in goat country the last few years than normal... expanding zones is common with overpopulation..
I think regardless of what Hunter's do in the name of conservation we will always end up drawing the short straw..it's easier for the State to manage Hunter's than manage the quarry we chase.
And whatever steps we take or rules we place upon ourselves, we will always look like the problem in the eye of the public and the COMMISSION...
Post by: bearpaw on September 25, 2024, 06:48:09 AM
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/almost-all-mountain-goats-died-after-airlift-from-olympics-to-cascades/
This article says a lot, if you haven't read it, you should.
I can certainly understand that if hunters are impacting a small population of animals, it could make a big difference in herd numbers over time, and for that reason I can't disagree with this topic, it's undeniably correct! However, I don't blame hunters who shot a handful of nannies for impacting goat numbers as much as goat numbers have dropped, that's not rational given the huge loss in overall goat numbers. But I think the OP is correct, I would expect certain seasons in areas with greatly reduced goat numbers to be curtailed until goat numbers increase, that is the way management should work! If a particular herd's existence is in danger responsible managers should try to identify and remove as many limiting factors as possible.
It appears after reading this article that the tribes are making an attempt to identify the problem. What is WDFW doing? WDFW has more resources than any tribe, yet certain tribes have determined the magnitude of the goat die off in both transplanted goats and in non-transplanted goats.
Quote
DARRINGTON — About five years ago, wildlife biologists with the Tulalip Tribes used GPS collars to start tracking 115 mountain goats translocated from the Olympic Peninsula to the North Cascades.
Only three are still alive today.
Wildlife biologists with the Stillaguamish Tribe found similar results. Out of 36 translocated goats they tracked, only one is still alive. Usually, mountain goats live between 10 to 13 years in the wild.
That's less than a 3% survival rate!
Quote
Researchers believe hunters initially introduced a handful of mountain goats to the Olympic mountains in the 1920s, before Olympic National Park was established.
The population on the peninsula skyrocketed about a century later to almost 700 goats.
That's a huge increase in goats! I am immediately asking myself what is so different from the North Cascades to the Olympics.
Quote
Over 10,000 goats lived in Washington as recently as 1961, according to the state Department of Fish and Wildlife. Now, an estimated 2,400 to 3,200 remain.
That's roughly a 75% reduction in total WA goat numbers! If goats are expanding in some areas then the die off is even worse in other areas!
Quote
The population near Mount St. Helens has soared over the past decade. In 2014, biologists counted 65 goats and now estimate some 400 goats live there.
That's over a 600% increase in goat numbers! What is different at St Helens than in the North Cascades?
I hope someone is focused on figuring out the differences? I'm willing to bet the answer to the overall problem can be determined by identifying the differences. If there is a chance to transplant goats again, I would consider transplanting some of them to an area where goats are doing well to see if those transplanted goats die off, I'm betting they don't die at the same rate as those transplanted to the North Cascades. Another step I would suggest is to collar some goats and try to visit every mortality site and try to determine the cause of death! Biologists know all of that, but is it happening? If that isn't happening why not?
Is WDFW going to allow goats the same fate as caribou in this state?
Post by: Bob33 on September 25, 2024, 07:15:20 AM
QuoteOver 10,000 goats lived in Washington as recently as 1961, according to the state Department of Fish and Wildlife. Now, an estimated 2,400 to 3,200 remain.
Post by: huntnnw on September 25, 2024, 08:01:31 AM
Post by: Practical Approach on September 25, 2024, 09:07:21 AM
Post by: storyteller on September 25, 2024, 09:11:13 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on September 25, 2024, 09:24:51 AM
Another reason to front tag fees or pick 1 oil tag to apply for to eliminate the people who really don’t care. A huge amount of the apps are “ well I’ll just throw my name in the hat “
Maybe they should increase the tag cost to $1332 for residents with $1000 of that being a refundable "nanny deposit" :chuckle:
Seriously though, I think pretty much everybody is in agreement that we should not shoot nannies. But I also get tired of hunters being so self depricating and willing to fall on the sword to take blame for the department's shortcomings. Our slice of this pie is already so miniscule, if it is really having these long-term effects then why aren't they putting more safeguards in place than a little online ID course? We're talking about sub 20 tag holders total. In person training, bigger incentives to not harvest nannies, are all very doable on this scale.
Post by: Hectocotylus on September 25, 2024, 10:15:57 AM
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Post by: time2hunt on September 25, 2024, 11:58:54 AM
I guess I view OIL hunts as a dream hunts and not a dream kill. I just finished the Baker Avalanche Gorge hunt and was lucky enough to harvest a Billy. I can't say enough about how stressed I was making sure it was a Billy. I took the non mandatory test and watched all the video information that WDFW sent on how to identify a Billy. I spoke with some of you who had hunted goats and the area I was hunting and you all gave me good advice. The main thing I took to heart is be patient, be as certain as you can. Many of you said watch it pee to make sure. While the wait can be long for the opportunity, I went into the hunt prepared to eat my tag versus shooting a nanny on purpose. I enjoyed the hunt preparation, meeting new hunters and spending time in a place I never get to hunt with my hunting friends. For me, that is what the hunt is all about. I know every hunter is different and that it isn't illegal to shoot a nanny. I think most of us can agree that now that these hunts are highly regulated, hunters are not the limiting factor on the populations viability. As hunters, we understand that killing males, as with most of our hunted species, does not have the impact on productivity as killing females. It makes it harder for our wildlife managers to make a case the anti hunting WDFW commissioners, to keep a population open, when the population is barely meeting the minimum population threshold, if nannies continue to be harvested. I do think that due to the number of nannies killed last year and this year to date, that 2024 is the last year for goat hunting on Baker. We will see.Did the state give you a kill kit for blood samples? I received a big packet from Idaho wanting blood and some other info.
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Post by: Huckleberry on September 25, 2024, 12:19:32 PM
If given the opportunity to do this hunt I would certainly target a nice billy but for the most part all goats look pretty similar. Size and sex are not quite the same as say a sheep hunt.
The situation looks bad. Goat populations as a whole and tags allocated continue to drop annually. I doubt I will ever get to hunt one due to poor management. I was adamantly against the Olympic cull (but put in for removal tags). That herd should have been viewed as a savings account and left alone. It's too late and the state is now out more animals than hunters have taken in the last 10 years.
Post by: greenhead_killer on September 25, 2024, 12:55:50 PM
Post by: jackelope on September 25, 2024, 06:45:49 PM
It's legal to shoot nannies. As I recall it from the pamphlet I got from the WDFW, it's legal because it would be extremely difficult to enforce. Lots of accidental nanny killings that don't justify legal action because it's too difficult to tell the difference for most people. The WDFW promotes not killing nannies. They send you lots of literature about how to tell the difference and they clearly really want you to try to only shoot billies. Shooting 1 nanny goat in a population that is limited to begin with has a much more significant impact on the overall herd health than lets say a doe deer. It's totally legal. I won't flip a guy crap out loud for shooting a nanny, but I will in my head and I will keep it to myself.
Post by: Hectocotylus on September 25, 2024, 07:16:14 PM
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Post by: time2hunt on September 25, 2024, 07:57:20 PM
She would look good next to my Billy
. Joking aside it’s are job as hunter to be able to distinguish a billy from a nannie. Physical conditioning is a big part it. I think most people that put in don’t realize that it’s a physical demanding hunt and panic sets in on having a OIL and not shooting a goat. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: bearpaw on September 26, 2024, 03:38:11 AM
Everyone can blame predators but environmental conditions impact way more than X percent more cats. And guess what. We can’t change the number of cats really. But we sure can change how many Nannie’s get killed. As hunters let’s take responsibility instead of whining about the department or something. We have a role. Let’s do it the best we can.
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I don't disagree with being selective, and doing what we can as hunters, but your missing the math. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of cats hunting every goat they can catch and they are not limited to one goat per lifetime. Compare that to a handful of hunters shooting a nanny, its pretty easy to see which factors are more likely causing the entire WA goat population to drop by 75%, from 10,000 to about 2500.
Post by: LDennis24 on September 26, 2024, 06:59:00 AM
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/climate-lab/wa-mountain-goats-struggle-to-survive/
Post by: Practical Approach on September 26, 2024, 08:12:27 AM
I guess I view OIL hunts as a dream hunts and not a dream kill. I just finished the Baker Avalanche Gorge hunt and was lucky enough to harvest a Billy. I can't say enough about how stressed I was making sure it was a Billy. I took the non mandatory test and watched all the video information that WDFW sent on how to identify a Billy. I spoke with some of you who had hunted goats and the area I was hunting and you all gave me good advice. The main thing I took to heart is be patient, be as certain as you can. Many of you said watch it pee to make sure. While the wait can be long for the opportunity, I went into the hunt prepared to eat my tag versus shooting a nanny on purpose. I enjoyed the hunt preparation, meeting new hunters and spending time in a place I never get to hunt with my hunting friends. For me, that is what the hunt is all about. I know every hunter is different and that it isn't illegal to shoot a nanny. I think most of us can agree that now that these hunts are highly regulated, hunters are not the limiting factor on the populations viability. As hunters, we understand that killing males, as with most of our hunted species, does not have the impact on productivity as killing females. It makes it harder for our wildlife managers to make a case the anti hunting WDFW commissioners, to keep a population open, when the population is barely meeting the minimum population threshold, if nannies continue to be harvested. I do think that due to the number of nannies killed last year and this year to date, that 2024 is the last year for goat hunting on Baker. We will see.Did the state give you a kill kit for blood samples? I received a big packet from Idaho wanting blood and some other info.
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I did not recieve a kit for a blood sample. The state met me at a later date to collect age and horn data and do Movi disease swab.
Post by: jackelope on September 26, 2024, 07:44:21 PM
To me, this more solidifies the need for hunters to do the best they can to only shoot billies.Everyone can blame predators but environmental conditions impact way more than X percent more cats. And guess what. We can’t change the number of cats really. But we sure can change how many Nannie’s get killed. As hunters let’s take responsibility instead of whining about the department or something. We have a role. Let’s do it the best we can.
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I don't disagree with being selective, and doing what we can as hunters, but your missing the math. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of cats hunting every goat they can catch and they are not limited to one goat per lifetime. Compare that to a handful of hunters shooting a nanny, its pretty easy to see which factors are more likely causing the entire WA goat population to drop by 75%, from 10,000 to about 2500.
Post by: boneaddict on September 27, 2024, 04:02:39 AM
Grizz bear will be the final nail.
Post by: Practical Approach on September 27, 2024, 03:35:21 PM
Some permit holders may have harvested a goat already, so please ignore this email if that is the case. For those who are still hunting, I am sending a reminder to please do your best to harvest a billy. It’s not illegal to harvest a nanny, and you will not get in trouble if you do so. However, I want to remind you of a couple of important points:
The Mt. Baker goat herd, like most others in WA, is in decline and has been for several years.
Mountain goats are slow reproducers. Nannies reach sexual maturity late and may be 4 years of age or older before they have their first kid. Only about 60% of adult nannies will have a kid each year, and kid mortality can be high. Removal of a nanny can have implications that last for several years.
Female survival has the greatest impact on population growth, and older age class females (even those over 10 years of age) are more likely to have a kid each year and successfully rear the kid than younger age females.
The number of goat tags we will offer on future Baker hunts is dependent on the number of nannies harvested in this or any future hunt. The higher the percentage of males in the harvest, the better. Ideally that number will be 100%. Even a single harvested nanny may impact the number of permits we can offer in 2025, since we will be using this year’s harvest and last year’s numbers to determine permit levels. In an email I sent you on June 26, I mentioned that last year seven goats were harvested and four of them were nannies (a male harvest rate of only 43%).
We want you to have a great hunt. Thanks for considering this information and doing your best to harvest a male. If you have any questions, please let me know.
Post by: Hectocotylus on September 27, 2024, 09:14:23 PM
Hello special permit holders,Ugh. Glad they are trying to communicate this stuff. Hope it has an impact. 40% males is pathetic. Us hunters should be embarrassed.
Some permit holders may have harvested a goat already, so please ignore this email if that is the case. For those who are still hunting, I am sending a reminder to please do your best to harvest a billy. It’s not illegal to harvest a nanny, and you will not get in trouble if you do so. However, I want to remind you of a couple of important points:
The Mt. Baker goat herd, like most others in WA, is in decline and has been for several years.
Mountain goats are slow reproducers. Nannies reach sexual maturity late and may be 4 years of age or older before they have their first kid. Only about 60% of adult nannies will have a kid each year, and kid mortality can be high. Removal of a nanny can have implications that last for several years.
Female survival has the greatest impact on population growth, and older age class females (even those over 10 years of age) are more likely to have a kid each year and successfully rear the kid than younger age females.
The number of goat tags we will offer on future Baker hunts is dependent on the number of nannies harvested in this or any future hunt. The higher the percentage of males in the harvest, the better. Ideally that number will be 100%. Even a single harvested nanny may impact the number of permits we can offer in 2025, since we will be using this year’s harvest and last year’s numbers to determine permit levels. In an email I sent you on June 26, I mentioned that last year seven goats were harvested and four of them were nannies (a male harvest rate of only 43%).
We want you to have a great hunt. Thanks for considering this information and doing your best to harvest a male. If you have any questions, please let me know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: shanevg on September 27, 2024, 09:17:03 PM
:yeah:Hello special permit holders,Ugh. Glad they are trying to communicate this stuff. Hope it has an impact. 40% males is pathetic. Us hunters should be embarrassed.
Some permit holders may have harvested a goat already, so please ignore this email if that is the case. For those who are still hunting, I am sending a reminder to please do your best to harvest a billy. It’s not illegal to harvest a nanny, and you will not get in trouble if you do so. However, I want to remind you of a couple of important points:
The Mt. Baker goat herd, like most others in WA, is in decline and has been for several years.
Mountain goats are slow reproducers. Nannies reach sexual maturity late and may be 4 years of age or older before they have their first kid. Only about 60% of adult nannies will have a kid each year, and kid mortality can be high. Removal of a nanny can have implications that last for several years.
Female survival has the greatest impact on population growth, and older age class females (even those over 10 years of age) are more likely to have a kid each year and successfully rear the kid than younger age females.
The number of goat tags we will offer on future Baker hunts is dependent on the number of nannies harvested in this or any future hunt. The higher the percentage of males in the harvest, the better. Ideally that number will be 100%. Even a single harvested nanny may impact the number of permits we can offer in 2025, since we will be using this year’s harvest and last year’s numbers to determine permit levels. In an email I sent you on June 26, I mentioned that last year seven goats were harvested and four of them were nannies (a male harvest rate of only 43%).
We want you to have a great hunt. Thanks for considering this information and doing your best to harvest a male. If you have any questions, please let me know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
:yeah:
Post by: RB on September 27, 2024, 10:34:52 PM
Cats
Grizz bear will be the final nail.
:yeah:
Post by: highcountry_hunter on September 28, 2024, 05:38:29 AM
Another reason to front tag fees or pick 1 oil tag to apply for to eliminate the people who really don’t care. A huge amount of the apps are “ well I’ll just throw my name in the hat “This. It’s so cheap to get into all the OIL drawings and you can put in for all of them, so a guy who can barely walk to his mail box is putting in for moose, sheep and goat. He draws a goat tag and can barely hike into the unit, of course he’s going to shoot the first goat he sees regardless of sex.
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Post by: LDennis24 on September 29, 2024, 10:02:07 AM
Another reason to front tag fees or pick 1 oil tag to apply for to eliminate the people who really don’t care. A huge amount of the apps are “ well I’ll just throw my name in the hat “This. It’s so cheap to get into all the OIL drawings and you can put in for all of them, so a guy who can barely walk to his mail box is putting in for moose, sheep and goat. He draws a goat tag and can barely hike into the unit, of course he’s going to shoot the first goat he sees regardless of sex.
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:yeah:
Still gonna have bragging rights to anyone who doesn't know better about being on a "goat hunt"
Post by: Fletch on October 02, 2024, 04:17:14 PM
Post by: Hectocotylus on October 02, 2024, 06:26:56 PM
Maybe this will helpShould be required reading material for the tag
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Post by: Naches Sportsman on January 01, 2025, 08:00:44 PM
We are losing yet another goat tag in what used to be an awesome area partially due to a nanny being taken on 9/15/24 in which that unit was open from 8/30-11/12… plenty of time to properly identify a Billy IMO…
We can’t control climate change or Nannies aborting kids, but we can control Nannie’s being shot. Maybe it’s time for the sake of the northwest goat herds that 1.) we make tags Billy’s only and 2.) tag holders have to be accompanied by a Mtn goat biologist on a hunt if they can’t pass an identification test or make them book with an outfitter?
Our goat populations in the particular unit are pretty piss poor. It just makes me sad an angry that a person would shoot a nanny that early in the season, plenty of people would have helped them identify goats if they would have asked.
Post by: jackelope on January 01, 2025, 08:25:38 PM
If I can ID a billy, anybody can.
Post by: time2hunt on January 01, 2025, 08:28:01 PM
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Post by: LDennis24 on January 02, 2025, 01:09:04 PM
Laziness and no respect for the animal being hunted. We as hunter have to take responsibility and make sure we do the best we can to maintain healthy herds. I totally agree there is no reason a nannie should have been shot and it boils down to poor preparedness mentally and physically.
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:yeah:
I don't know that I believe people are misidentifying nannies and Billie's. They are just shooting the first easy target because it takes so much effort to get up in the mountains where goats are at and time off work and help packing and being a OIL tag and all that in some ways encourages them to shoot the first available goat knowing they may never have another chance. Maybe there should be a substantial fine for shooting a nanny? :dunno: An additional cost to deter people from taking the easy way out on these hunts. :tup:
Post by: Ridgerunner on January 02, 2025, 01:26:30 PM
Quote
They are just shooting the first easy target because it takes so much effort to get up in the mountains where goats are at and time off work and help packing and being a OIL tag and all that in some ways encourages them to shoot the first available goat knowing they may never have another chance
I think this has alot to do with it. Not just mountain goats but all OIL species, alot of guys have the mentality of shooting the first legal critter in this state with deer and elk so that translates into the OIL tags as well imo.
Plus some folks don't care about size, they just are thrilled with the opportunity. So shooting the first legal animal makes sense to them.
Post by: Hectocotylus on January 02, 2025, 01:31:40 PM
Mandatory Billy only or lose your other OIL points?Laziness and no respect for the animal being hunted. We as hunter have to take responsibility and make sure we do the best we can to maintain healthy herds. I totally agree there is no reason a nannie should have been shot and it boils down to poor preparedness mentally and physically.
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:yeah:
I don't know that I believe people are misidentifying nannies and Billie's. They are just shooting the first easy target because it takes so much effort to get up in the mountains where goats are at and time off work and help packing and being a OIL tag and all that in some ways encourages them to shoot the first available goat knowing they may never have another chance. Maybe there should be a substantial fine for shooting a nanny? :dunno: An additional cost to deter people from taking the easy way out on these hunts. :tup:
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Post by: bearpaw on January 02, 2025, 02:26:14 PM
I don't see human harvest, which is at such a low rate in this state, impacting the population one way or another. The small amount of human harvest (no matter if its billies or nannie) simply isn't a driving factor in Washington's goat population.
Vote in a republican governor who will put people on the commission who are actually concerned about fixing the predator problem and you can make a difference, that's the only way I see for any of us to make a difference!
This isn't rocket science! :bash:
Post by: boneaddict on January 02, 2025, 03:29:59 PM
Post by: danger on January 05, 2025, 12:09:20 PM
Post by: CasterlyRock on January 06, 2025, 08:48:07 AM
Post by: Britt-dog on January 06, 2025, 01:15:28 PM
why is it legal?
Because half of the goat tag holders would be losing their Nanny and getting a ticket. That or the mountain would be littered with dead Nannies.
Post by: CasterlyRock on January 06, 2025, 01:48:16 PM
why is it legal?
Because half of the goat tag holders would be losing their Nanny and getting a ticket. That or the mountain would be littered with dead Nannies.
Are you saying WDFW made it legal because too many people were killing females? That sounds plausible.
Post by: Alan K on January 06, 2025, 04:33:39 PM
It is tough. When I drew my goat tag (out of state), I was fortunate enough to have a situation where I had plenty of time to watch him and was able to see the nut sack to confirm he was a billy. Was pretty confident, but had the time and took advantage of it to be 100% certain.
There are dozens if not hundreds of 2 point bucks left lay every year by people who thought they saw a third point. Usually a few found and posted on here every year.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on January 06, 2025, 06:55:13 PM
Post by: time2hunt on January 06, 2025, 07:12:18 PM
It’s called putting boots on the ground and pre scouting and learning the animal you’re harvesting.
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Post by: Huckleberry on January 06, 2025, 07:23:53 PM
Post by: time2hunt on January 06, 2025, 08:02:46 PM
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Post by: Skinnyguts on January 11, 2025, 12:06:56 PM
Post by: blacktailer on February 20, 2025, 07:42:09 PM
“Pausing harvest promotes maximum survival of adult mountain goats and eliminates the potential inadvertent harvest of adult female goats, which are the most important drivers of long-term population trajectory.”
Post by: Limhangerslayer on February 20, 2025, 08:00:17 PM
I wonder if black bears don’t kill more kids than people give them credit for. Bear numbers sure don’t seem to be hurting.goats hunters are the least of the goats problems I believe. Shooting nannies doesn’t help but that is not the main problem. There used to be 25 tags for the tatoosh unit alone. There’s problems they don’t want to admit to.
Post by: HillHound on February 21, 2025, 02:06:08 AM
Post by: MR5x5 on February 21, 2025, 08:03:19 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on February 21, 2025, 08:19:35 AM
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 21, 2025, 09:19:42 AM
Oddly enough, if you look at mortality of mountain goats in this state for the last 10 yrs, WDFW is at the top! They killed how many from the Olympic Mountains? What kind of predators did they have in the Olympics? Nothing? So they relocated them all to be fodder for cougars in the Cascades. Which in turn habituated the cougars to pursue goats more often, because for a while there it was damn easy to catch one. ( the ones from the Olympics) and now we have a problem with ALL of our goat populations... 🤦 :twocents:
There are plenty of cats and bears in the Olympics too but I get your point and don't disagree
Post by: GOcougsHunter on February 21, 2025, 10:33:01 AM
Post by: LDennis24 on February 21, 2025, 04:56:39 PM
Oddly enough, if you look at mortality of mountain goats in this state for the last 10 yrs, WDFW is at the top! They killed how many from the Olympic Mountains? What kind of predators did they have in the Olympics? Nothing? So they relocated them all to be fodder for cougars in the Cascades. Which in turn habituated the cougars to pursue goats more often, because for a while there it was damn easy to catch one. ( the ones from the Olympics) and now we have a problem with ALL of our goat populations... 🤦 :twocents:
There are plenty of cats and bears in the Olympics too but I get your point and don't disagree
I was just throwing it out there as I have not heard of cats being in the Olympics. I know from alot of friends in Idaho that when wolves started coming through the elk didn't know what to do about them as they weren't like house dogs. They couldn't stomp and snort at them. The wolves just kept coming and would take them out. It was a learning curve and now the new generation elk herds know how to handle the wolves.
Post by: Practical Approach on February 21, 2025, 06:08:17 PM
Post by: The scout on February 21, 2025, 06:24:23 PM
Post by: jackelope on February 22, 2025, 09:29:30 AM
It’s all about the low hanging fruit, and hunters are exactly that.
Exactly. Hunters are the one easy thing to control. Shooting Nannie’s is a problem. It’s not as big a problem as cougars, but it’s super easy for wdfw to control and take that negative out of the equation.
Post by: bearpaw on February 25, 2025, 07:44:04 AM
Idaho bear season is open to bait and hounds in most units. There are also numerous units where you can take two bear by any method. There are a few units not open to bait or hounds, and those areas have the highest bear numbers. (at sportsman's request, these are sort of trophy bear units)
Idaho wolf season is very long and year round in many units, hunters can buy 5 wolf tags, trappers can buy more wolf tags, trapping season is long too, however a wolf loving judge in Missoula recently closed part of the wolf trapping season, hoping the Trump Administration overturns that decision along with wolf protection in all states.
My main point is the real problem for Washington goats is that the Washington Wildlife Commission is managing them! This Commission refuses to manage predators, they allowed the caribou to be wiped completely out by predators, there was no caribou hunting season to blame hunters, and they will allow the same to happen with goats.
Post by: HillHound on February 25, 2025, 08:08:10 AM
In Idaho we have a long cougar season with hounds, most areas are Dec 1 to March 31, some areas are a month longer, some areas anyone can buy two tags, and boot hunters have most of the year to shoot them. We still have too many cougar! IDFG collared deer in a few units to study cause of mortality, roughly 30% were killed by cougar, the proposal this year is to add another month of hound hunting in those areas.Agree 100%.
Idaho bear season is open to bait and hounds in most units. There are also numerous units where you can take two bear by any method. There are a few units not open to bait or hounds, and those areas have the highest bear numbers. (at sportsman's request, these are sort of trophy bear units)
Idaho wolf season is very long and year round in many units, hunters can buy 5 wolf tags, trappers can buy more wolf tags, trapping season is long too, however a wolf loving judge in Missoula recently closed part of the wolf trapping season, hoping the Trump Administration overturns that decision along with wolf protection in all states.
My main point is the real problem for Washington goats is that the Washington Wildlife Commission is managing them! This Commission refuses to manage predators, they allowed the caribou to be wiped completely out by predators, there was no caribou hunting season to blame hunters, and they will allow the same to happen with goats.
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 25, 2025, 11:41:52 AM
In Idaho we have a long cougar season with hounds, most areas are Dec 1 to March 31, some areas are a month longer, some areas anyone can buy two tags, and boot hunters have most of the year to shoot them. We still have too many cougar! IDFG collared deer in a few units to study cause of mortality, roughly 30% were killed by cougar, the proposal this year is to add another month of hound hunting in those areas.If i remember correctly, wdfw used population data from IDFG to validate their estimates without considering the take season in idaho. Idaho has similar densities to wdfw estimates, but with much more liberal take and seasons. I think that should point to hunter harvest (and conflict, roadkill, etc) essentially operating in the surplus population or animals that would die or be killed regardless. Good luck convincing wdfw of this though. Sorry for the derail.
Idaho bear season is open to bait and hounds in most units. There are also numerous units where you can take two bear by any method. There are a few units not open to bait or hounds, and those areas have the highest bear numbers. (at sportsman's request, these are sort of trophy bear units)
Idaho wolf season is very long and year round in many units, hunters can buy 5 wolf tags, trappers can buy more wolf tags, trapping season is long too, however a wolf loving judge in Missoula recently closed part of the wolf trapping season, hoping the Trump Administration overturns that decision along with wolf protection in all states.
My main point is the real problem for Washington goats is that the Washington Wildlife Commission is managing them! This Commission refuses to manage predators, they allowed the caribou to be wiped completely out by predators, there was no caribou hunting season to blame hunters, and they will allow the same to happen with goats.
Post by: Mtnwalker on February 25, 2025, 12:38:52 PM
In Idaho we have a long cougar season with hounds, most areas are Dec 1 to March 31, some areas are a month longer, some areas anyone can buy two tags, and boot hunters have most of the year to shoot them. We still have too many cougar! IDFG collared deer in a few units to study cause of mortality, roughly 30% were killed by cougar, the proposal this year is to add another month of hound hunting in those areas.If i remember correctly, wdfw used population data from IDFG to validate their estimates without considering the take season in idaho. Idaho has similar densities to wdfw estimates, but with much more liberal take and seasons. I think that should point to hunter harvest (and conflict, roadkill, etc) essentially operating in the surplus population or animals that would die or be killed regardless. Good luck convincing wdfw of this though. Sorry for the derail.
Idaho bear season is open to bait and hounds in most units. There are also numerous units where you can take two bear by any method. There are a few units not open to bait or hounds, and those areas have the highest bear numbers. (at sportsman's request, these are sort of trophy bear units)
Idaho wolf season is very long and year round in many units, hunters can buy 5 wolf tags, trappers can buy more wolf tags, trapping season is long too, however a wolf loving judge in Missoula recently closed part of the wolf trapping season, hoping the Trump Administration overturns that decision along with wolf protection in all states.
My main point is the real problem for Washington goats is that the Washington Wildlife Commission is managing them! This Commission refuses to manage predators, they allowed the caribou to be wiped completely out by predators, there was no caribou hunting season to blame hunters, and they will allow the same to happen with goats.
He's alive! I was wondering :chuckle: Also, great point and not a derail
Post by: BULLBLASTER on February 26, 2025, 01:07:15 PM
:chuckle:In Idaho we have a long cougar season with hounds, most areas are Dec 1 to March 31, some areas are a month longer, some areas anyone can buy two tags, and boot hunters have most of the year to shoot them. We still have too many cougar! IDFG collared deer in a few units to study cause of mortality, roughly 30% were killed by cougar, the proposal this year is to add another month of hound hunting in those areas.If i remember correctly, wdfw used population data from IDFG to validate their estimates without considering the take season in idaho. Idaho has similar densities to wdfw estimates, but with much more liberal take and seasons. I think that should point to hunter harvest (and conflict, roadkill, etc) essentially operating in the surplus population or animals that would die or be killed regardless. Good luck convincing wdfw of this though. Sorry for the derail.
Idaho bear season is open to bait and hounds in most units. There are also numerous units where you can take two bear by any method. There are a few units not open to bait or hounds, and those areas have the highest bear numbers. (at sportsman's request, these are sort of trophy bear units)
Idaho wolf season is very long and year round in many units, hunters can buy 5 wolf tags, trappers can buy more wolf tags, trapping season is long too, however a wolf loving judge in Missoula recently closed part of the wolf trapping season, hoping the Trump Administration overturns that decision along with wolf protection in all states.
My main point is the real problem for Washington goats is that the Washington Wildlife Commission is managing them! This Commission refuses to manage predators, they allowed the caribou to be wiped completely out by predators, there was no caribou hunting season to blame hunters, and they will allow the same to happen with goats.
He's alive! I was wondering :chuckle: Also, great point and not a derail