Post by: KillerMiller on February 27, 2010, 11:14:05 AM
By K.C. Mehaffey
World staff writer
Saturday, February 27, 2010
Biologists are trying to confirm whether a new pack of gray wolves — like the one in this U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service photo — is roaming near Lake Chelan.
CHELAN — They’ve had no confirmed sightings, but U.S. Forest Service biologists in Chelan think gray wolves might be living in remote areas above Lake Chelan’s north shore.
The Chelan Ranger District set out three cameras this winter to try to confirm it.
Just over the Chelan Ridge, which separates the Methow and Lake Chelan valleys, the state’s first confirmed wolf pack is being monitored.
“There could be a separate pack,” said Mallory Lenz, Chelan’s district biologist. Lenz said they’ve been getting reports since the early 1990s from hunters and outfitters who thought they saw or heard wolves.
“The outfitters that go up there have said for several years now they think there’s another pack,” she said. The areas include Miners Basin and the upper east fork of Prince Creek, she said. Both are more than halfway up the lake, across the lake and southeast of Lucerne.
The reports were basically discounted, she said. Everyone thought the animals were probably wolf-dog hybrids.
Then, after state officials confirmed in 2008 that the Lookout Pack members in the Methow Valley are pure wolf and genetically linked to wolves in British Columbia, biologists started to think those reported in the Chelan basin might also be purebred, Lenz said.
She said this winter was the first time her district has set up remote cameras for the purpose of finding wolves. A few years ago, she said, a remote camera did capture an image that could have been a wolf, but it was from the animal’s back side, and could also have been a very large dog.
Next week, Lenz will retrieve the three remote cameras and download the images to see if there’s any proof of another pack.
“I’m excited about the possibility, because it’s an indicator we have a healthy, working ecosystem out there,” she said. It’s also a unique opportunity to have wolves in an area where they’d have little impact, since there are no active livestock ranges in that area.
But this winter may not have been the best opportunity to capture proof, Lenz said. With so little snow, the deer have been ranging higher than usual, and the wolves —if there are any — would probably follow them to higher elevations where cameras are not set up.
John Rohrer, Forest Service biologist for the Methow Valley Ranger District, said the Lookout Pack has traveled over the Chelan Ridge crest, and up into the North Cascades National Park.
But it’s unlikely that the sightings in the Lake Chelan area are of the Lookout Pack. He’s been helping monitor the alpha male and female since 2008 and “They’ve never been down by Lake Chelan. They’re always up in the high country,” he said.
Residents in the Methow Valley have also been reporting what they believe is a second wolf pack, in the War Creek drainage of Twisp River. But Rohrer said feedback from radio collars shows the pack has been in that area a number of times, so it’s probable that those sightings are of the Lookout Pack.
Scott Fitkin, state Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist in Winthrop, agreed. “To what extent there are other individual wolves wandering on the landscape, or additional packs, that’s an unknown,” he said. “But War Creek is in the middle of the Lookout Pack’s range. A pack there more than likely will be the Lookout Pack,” he said.
At last count, the Lookout Pack included seven wolves — an alpha male, an alpha female, an adult pup born in 2008, and four pups born last spring
Fitkin said the pack continues to behave itself. “At least nobody’s reporting any problems,” he said.
The pack also appears to be healthy, and living longer than wolves that compete with other packs.
“The expected lifespan tends to be less than what we’re seeing on the Lookout,” Fitkin said. The adult male wolf was about 5 years old when they started monitoring the pack two years ago. “We’ve got pretty old adults. The fact that they’ve persisted this long makes it a pretty successful pack,” he said.
That may be because the habitat could support many more wolves, so there’s not as much competition for food, he said. The pack also doesn’t have to contend with “intra-species strife,” he said, and the fighting between males that can significantly reduce an individual wolf’s lifespa
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/ (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/)
Post by: JackOfAllTrades on February 27, 2010, 11:23:04 AM
Quote
Lenz said they’ve been getting reports since the early 1990s from hunters and outfitters who thought they saw or heard wolves.
“The outfitters that go up there have said for several years now they think there’s another pack,” she said.
The reports were basically discounted, she said. Everyone thought the animals were probably wolf-dog hybrids.
Fitkin and other WDFW bio's should listen to those that are in the woods over the years. There's more going on in them thar woods than they know about.
-Steve
Post by: Shootmoore on February 27, 2010, 11:29:55 AM
QuoteLenz said they’ve been getting reports since the early 1990s from hunters and outfitters who thought they saw or heard wolves.
“The outfitters that go up there have said for several years now they think there’s another pack,” she said.
The reports were basically discounted, she said. Everyone thought the animals were probably wolf-dog hybrids.
Fitkin and other WDFW bio's should listen to those that are in the woods over the years. There's more going on in them thar woods than they know about.
-Steve
Its the curse of Technology I'm afraid. Instead of boots on the ground biology of old today its theories and computer models that are used.
Shootmoore
Post by: wolfbait on February 27, 2010, 01:01:48 PM
Post by: mulehunter on February 27, 2010, 05:23:07 PM
PLUS More Pups out of Possible two Females plus for sure Alpha Female coming this March! :'(
Mulehunter :bash:
Post by: bearhunter99 on February 27, 2010, 05:39:44 PM
She said this winter was the first time her district has set up remote cameras for the purpose of finding wolves. A few years ago, she said, a remote camera did capture an image that could have been a wolf, but it was from the animal’s back side, and could also have been a very large dog.
How many "big dogs" are there in the remote areas? WDFW is never going to be right again until all the bioligists and wardens come from hunting backgrounds like they used to. All the biologists they have in this day and time are more in tune with the Defenders of Wildlife than they are with what it actually takes to have a healthy, balanced ecosystem. my :twocents:
Post by: ICEMAN on February 27, 2010, 08:15:52 PM
Post by: Viszla on March 01, 2010, 08:49:42 AM
Post by: uplandhunter870 on March 01, 2010, 09:23:25 AM
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 01, 2010, 09:31:04 AM
Post by: wolfbait on March 01, 2010, 09:32:45 AM
i read that article in the wenatchee world over the weekend and all i could way was "DUH!". the only thing that seperates the pack(s) in the methow is a ridge or two. heck im only finishing my second year of study in a wildlife bio degree and i can figure this one out. do the bios with the state really think that the wolves are going to stay were they are "supposed to" according to their models. the defenders of wildlife are just a bunch of dirt worshiping tree huggers that want a "balanced" ecosystem that humans have no part in. the deer and elk populations are in serious trouble in this state not only in the north shore of chelan. i have a number of friends around here that have told me theyve seen wolf sign as far south as the northern drainage of the entiat. as said above theres more going on in this area than the state bios know. i just dont understand how they think putting a few trail cams up is going to prove or disprove anything, just look at how well they have estimated the cougar populations in the area. i have personal first hand knowledge of 5 cats in a couple places around here that a couple wardens and a bio told me straight up "theres no way theres cats in those places".
They are not interested in proving there are more wolves, confirming wolf packs only speeds up delisting and that slows down what they do best, sitting on ass in front of computer!
Post by: wolfbait on March 01, 2010, 09:35:50 AM
I know for a fact that two packs were seen on the very same day in the Methow, and so do several other people. Including fitkin.
(Fitkin said the pack continues to behave itself. “At least nobody’s reporting any problems,” he said.)
I guess a cow and calf, and some chickens don't count, at least not with fitkin in charge. Folks are not calling fitkin anymore, they are taking care of their wolf problems the old fashion way.
(“The expected lifespan tends to be less than what we’re seeing on the Lookout,” Fitkin said. The adult male wolf was about 5 years old when they started monitoring the pack two years ago. “We’ve got pretty old adults. The fact that they’ve persisted this long makes it a pretty successful pack,” he said.)
The Methow Valley could end up having the oldest pack in the world, it is for sure the largest!
Whats one more Lie?
Post by: uplandhunter870 on March 01, 2010, 09:43:17 AM
As far south as Entiat?
thats just what i have heard, not saying you didnt see what you saw up no. 1/2. myself and most of the guys that i hunt with prefer to stay away from the areas around town, too many people creates too many problems.
Wolfbait--- i know they dont want to prove higher wolf numbers, i just cant get why they think a few trail cams are the best method of research. guess i got too much of an old time work ethic
Post by: wolfbait on March 01, 2010, 09:53:52 AM
As far south as Entiat?
thats just what i have heard, not saying you didnt see what you saw up no. 1/2. myself and most of the guys that i hunt with prefer to stay away from the areas around town, too many people creates too many problems.
Wolfbait--- i know they dont want to prove higher wolf numbers, i just cant get why they think a few trail cams are the best method of research. guess i got too much of an old time work ethic
Wolves are in the Clockcum, over on the Bar and up around the power line, Sue Mac Springs ring a bell to anyone?
Trail Cams sound very professional, like maybe they are doing their job, the rest of us know the difference, but we don't count, WDFW and the environmentalists are more interested in impressing the city folks.
Post by: villageidiot on March 01, 2010, 05:31:52 PM
Post by: wrangler on March 01, 2010, 05:49:52 PM
Post by: Antlerking on March 01, 2010, 06:13:05 PM
As far south as Entiat? I have seen wolf tracks on numerous occcasions in the #1/#2 Canyon area, along with one brief sighting, and before the critics pipe in I do know the difference between a wolf and coyote track. Now, they could have been a very large dog, but I have never seen dogs that far out. Always a possibility but highly doubtful, and I know that people hike in #2 Canyon with dogs, but these tracks were away from the paths, with no human tracks or sign anywhere nearby.\
not 2 be clarifing or picking on u but #2 and #1 cyn is in the mission not the entiat :) not 2 sure if u were appying that or not.
Post by: woodswalker on March 01, 2010, 06:24:34 PM
Quote
The reports were basically discounted, she said. Everyone thought the animals were probably wolf-dog hybrids.
So, lets go shoot a few for genetic testing.
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 01, 2010, 07:18:24 PM
Post by: Antlerking on March 01, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on March 01, 2010, 07:39:36 PM
Michael
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 01, 2010, 07:59:25 PM
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/ (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/)
People laugh about the stupid comments that ignorant and uninformed people make in regards to wolves but frankly it scares the living SH** out of me, because these are the same people that voted out baiting for bears and hunting cats with dogs. The ignorant and uninformed are the ones that actually get out and vote and are the ones that have led to the sad state that hunting in this state has become.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 01, 2010, 08:35:51 PM
unfortunately, you are probably right on...QuoteLenz said they’ve been getting reports since the early 1990s from hunters and outfitters who thought they saw or heard wolves.
“The outfitters that go up there have said for several years now they think there’s another pack,” she said.
The reports were basically discounted, she said. Everyone thought the animals were probably wolf-dog hybrids.
Fitkin and other WDFW bio's should listen to those that are in the woods over the years. There's more going on in them thar woods than they know about.
-Steve
Its the curse of Technology I'm afraid. Instead of boots on the ground biology of old today its theories and computer models that are used.
Shootmoore
how's that court case moving along?
I know for a fact that two packs were seen on the very same day in the Methow, and so do several other people. Including fitkin.
Whats one more Lie?
Waiting anxiously for you to be able to share all the particulars of the cover ups.
Post by: ICEMAN on March 02, 2010, 06:10:18 AM
Check out the discussion arising from this article here:
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/ (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/)
People laugh about the stupid comments that ignorant and uninformed people make in regards to wolves but frankly it scares the living SH** out of me, because these are the same people that voted out baiting for bears and hunting cats with dogs. The ignorant and uninformed are the ones that actually get out and vote and are the ones that have led to the sad state that hunting in this state has become.
Bearhunter99, that is so true.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 02, 2010, 08:20:48 AM
Yep- they're also the ones that are running their mouth and convincing other idiots to their way of thinking.Check out the discussion arising from this article here:
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/ (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/)
People laugh about the stupid comments that ignorant and uninformed people make in regards to wolves but frankly it scares the living SH** out of me, because these are the same people that voted out baiting for bears and hunting cats with dogs. The ignorant and uninformed are the ones that actually get out and vote and are the ones that have led to the sad state that hunting in this state has become.
Bearhunter99, that is so true.
Post by: wolfbait on March 02, 2010, 09:22:22 AM
Yep- they're also the ones that are running their mouth and convincing other idiots to their way of thinking.Check out the discussion arising from this article here:
http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/ (http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2010/feb/27/is-there-a-new-pack-of-wolves-near-lake-chelan/)
People laugh about the stupid comments that ignorant and uninformed people make in regards to wolves but frankly it scares the living SH** out of me, because these are the same people that voted out baiting for bears and hunting cats with dogs. The ignorant and uninformed are the ones that actually get out and vote and are the ones that have led to the sad state that hunting in this state has become.
Bearhunter99, that is so true.
There is only one set of idiots, and I am sure everyone can figure out which ones they are. People who have really studied the wolf issue have facts to back up what they tell the little fools that believe the Defenders of Wildlife's lies.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 02, 2010, 09:29:13 AM
Post by: esgarbanzo on March 02, 2010, 10:01:53 AM
I think that small sustainable wolf populations that are subject to hunting management will only make deer and elk hunting better. They will select for bigger animals, which we as hunters (and management) have culled.
The next step though is reintroducing grizzlies. They help keep wolves in check.
Anyways, wolves are valuable to the ecosystem. That is undeniable. Anti-wolf sentiment among hunters and ranchers is often justified, but somewhat overblown I think.
I'm not saying, I'm just sayin
Jeremy
Post by: dontgetcrabs on March 02, 2010, 10:11:20 AM
Post by: Kain on March 02, 2010, 10:13:13 AM
There are lots of hunters that would not mind a sustainable number of wolves in Washington. The problem is most do not believe that they will ever be managed that way.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 02, 2010, 10:14:07 AM
I tend to agree that wolves are not the end of times for hunters, but they are not going to help us any. I think I know where you're going with the grizzly helping stabilize wolf populations. I suppose they will take a kill from a wolf, but they also take kills from hunters and occasionally try to take hunters! I'm not in favor of any large carnivore reintroductions. The animals are here, let them repopulate at a natural rate.
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on March 02, 2010, 10:18:56 AM
Now as far as wolves go, let me just say look at what happened to the hunting in Idaho for deer and elk over the last few years... that is right wolves makes the hunting better????? :bash: Dude, careful not to litter that granola when you step out of your Subaru.....
Post by: esgarbanzo on March 02, 2010, 10:30:22 AM
You have to admit that granola is delicious and filling, more so than many quick breakfasts. Subaru makes a decent vehicle, though I don't have one...
Post by: MichaelJ on March 02, 2010, 10:39:55 AM
Can you honestly find ANY un-biased SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to back up IMPROVED hunting where wolves are present?
Keystone predator: they may be fine in a park where there is no human predation, but the fact that they are competing directly with another keystone predator; humans! Don't our deer/elk deserve just as much to have healthy populations? Anthropogenic influences on both biotic and abiotic factors of our ecosystems is a reality. We have a responsibility and duty to manage them, not sit back and look at the mess we've made of nature and expect it to rebound to 100%. Mother nature is dynamic and very resilient, we need to step in and manage what factors we can to help her on her way...
Sure I can live with SOME wolves, but the way they are managed now (or lack there of) is absolutely retarded...
They re-populate very quickly when their numbers are down, and they sport-kill more than any other predator. They are a predator and should be managed as such. Same rules and regulations as coyotes, no bag limit, shoot on site... They are extremely smart and with the rate at which they reproduce, no matter how many we kill they will continue to grow in population.
Michael
Post by: NWWABOWHNTR on March 02, 2010, 10:46:12 AM
Do you have any pictures of your jaunts in the woods while hunting? :rolleyes:
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 02, 2010, 10:48:19 AM
Post by: Special T on March 02, 2010, 10:54:55 AM
Post by: Kain on March 02, 2010, 10:58:30 AM
Also wolves there have always been hunted so stay as far from humans as they can. Here they will not be hunted for another 15-20 years. A potentially dangerous situation.
Post by: Shootmoore on March 02, 2010, 10:59:01 AM
I must say my neck is plenty red, and I've had more than a few Subaru's... Then again they were on 30 in tires and the exhaust was rerouted through the hood! Granola is OK with hot black coffee, but i got to draw the like at Birkenstocks! :P
Don't lie Special T, I know you seceretly want to live in LaConner.
Shootmoore
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 02, 2010, 11:12:48 AM
They re-populate very quickly when their numbers are down, and they sport-kill more than any other predator. They are a predator and should be managed as such. Same rules and regulations as coyotes, no bag limit, shoot on site... They are extremely smart and with the rate at which they reproduce, no matter how many we kill they will continue to grow in population.I think we tried that...and they did not continue to grow in population. They were extirpated as a result of that sort of management. ID and MT should continue with their hunting seasons to reduce the wolf population. WY should get on board because they are going to get wolves re listed.
Post by: bearhunter99 on March 02, 2010, 11:17:28 AM
Post by: Special T on March 02, 2010, 11:18:30 AM
Post by: Shootmoore on March 02, 2010, 11:25:10 AM
They re-populate very quickly when their numbers are down, and they sport-kill more than any other predator. They are a predator and should be managed as such. Same rules and regulations as coyotes, no bag limit, shoot on site... They are extremely smart and with the rate at which they reproduce, no matter how many we kill they will continue to grow in population.I think we tried that...and they did not continue to grow in population. They were extirpated as a result of that sort of management. ID and MT should continue with their hunting seasons to reduce the wolf population. WY should get on board because they are going to get wolves re listed.
Actually we did not try that specifically. It took poisoning, trapping, preditor hunting, bounties, and state and federal hunters to extirpate them last time. I imagine if you took out the trapping and poison you would be unable to get rid of them today.
Wyoming should stick to its guns in my opinion. I have seen that trying to meet the Defenders of Wildlife and the Fed in the middle only has them trying to push farther. Instead of Wyoming giving in I say the Feds should give in and allow Wyoming to manage an experimental population as they see fit and delist in that state. It does not affect the Yellowstone which is not administered by Wyoming. The Fed has continued to expand the requirments from the origional release plan. Sometime you have to say enough is enough.
Shootmoore
Post by: MichaelJ on March 02, 2010, 11:28:11 AM
I think we tried that...and they did not continue to grow in population. They were extirpated as a result of that sort of management. ID and MT should continue with their hunting seasons to reduce the wolf population. WY should get on board because they are going to get wolves re listed.
Not hardly, the only way we were able to exterminate wolves was the use of poisons, and doubtless thousands of other animals got killed that way too... Not advocating poisen, but hunters should be allowed to hunt them the same they do coyotes. Look at how many wolves ID was able to harvest this year, and that is with extending the season! How many pups are going to be born this year? A helluva lot more than 200 thats for sure....
Michael
Post by: esgarbanzo on March 02, 2010, 11:33:50 AM
You didn't scare me off, though maybe I should be concerned that you want a picture of me. I don't have any evidence of improved hunting with wolves and clearly they compete with human hunters. Though our landscape is dominated by people, more than places like Alaska and Canada, many of these things (agriculture and logging) have helped deer and elk populations expand. I think wolves should be hunted as soon as their population can support it, but no limit seasons will only extirpate them once again make hunters look terrible in the public eye.
Any pics of me hunting would bore you. I have only successfully gotten a deer once in three years of hunting the late muzzleloader season. It was a doe in an any deer area and I didn't take any pictures. If you're questioning my street cred, that's legit. I've watched this site since I started hunting, but haven't really had anything to contribute.. until now I guess... a little controversy. 8)
Post by: MichaelJ on March 02, 2010, 11:39:03 AM
Not to mention that the breed of wolf that has been introduced, runs a LOT bigger in physical size, and runs in larger packs that our native timber wolves... in fact, the canadian breed that has been introduced will eventually completely wipe out any native timber wolves that we have/had left...
Just look at what noxious weeds do when introduced into an ecosystem... They change the whole ecosystem functions, wipe out our most productive vegetation species, and there's very little we can do to stop them! Its the same if not worse with a keystone predator introduced to the states that is NOT NATIVE!
Michael
Post by: wolfbait on March 02, 2010, 12:32:02 PM
Post by: bearpaw on March 02, 2010, 12:36:21 PM
If you look a little closer at Idaho today, season has been open for nearly 6 months and in half the units they did not meet the quota. This was a population of wolves that have never been hunted by man. You could open season year around and as wolves get smart to hunting, they will be even tougher to get.
The facts are there to support year around unlimited hunting in Idaho right now. :twocents:
Post by: MichaelJ on March 02, 2010, 02:59:59 PM
Michael
Post by: fishnate on March 02, 2010, 03:07:27 PM
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/are_hunters_stupid_the_unintended_consequences_of_wolf_hunting/C41/L41/ (http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/are_hunters_stupid_the_unintended_consequences_of_wolf_hunting/C41/L41/)
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 02, 2010, 03:24:11 PM
Where'd he go??? :chuckle:Had to hustle over to the park to take some "outdoor" photos. :)
Michael
Post by: MichaelJ on March 02, 2010, 05:57:36 PM
Where'd he go??? :chuckle:Had to hustle over to the park to take some "outdoor" photos. :)
Michael
LMAO! :chuckle: I think we're doing pretty good with the poor guy honestly, seems like everybody is being pretty civil, hope he sticks aroung honestly...
Michael
Post by: fishnate on March 02, 2010, 06:42:19 PM
Post by: chester on March 03, 2010, 03:52:45 AM
Post by: wolfbait on March 03, 2010, 04:34:30 AM
Did that kid say that wolves in yellowstone brought back cutthroat trout? :dunno:
Now Chester don't make fun of the kid, he did say he has done a lot of "research" :rolleyes:
(The anti-predator sentiment on this site is strong. Are their folks here who support wolves returning to WA? I have done a fair amount of research on them because I consider myself an environmentalist and a hunter/fisherman.)
Post by: KillBilly on March 03, 2010, 04:43:42 AM
Given the fact that I am a Hunter/Predator I am not going to let my greed for game condemn any of the other Predators needs or rightful place in the big plan for things. All of us have needs and wants, I am not going to consider mine more important than of the other Predators.
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 03, 2010, 05:23:02 AM
Post by: KillBilly on March 03, 2010, 05:59:42 AM
You might not but i will especially when it comes to eradication of other game animals which I quest for.
That is the same thing the Wolf is thinking...
Post by: Hangfire on March 03, 2010, 06:13:04 AM
Some basic information presented:
Collared wolves have been tracked moving 600 miles. In Washington when the population reaches 200 wolves state wide expect: Wolves will take 2,500 elk and 4,200 deer annually. Hunters average 7,400 elk and 38,000 deer. (that is 1/3 of the elk harvest and 11% of the deer). They will kill livestock, Wolves consider dogs a competing species. Be carefull with dogs while hiking, hunting, herding cattle or even having a dog on a leash when in a wolf area. They had a map covering most of mid Pend Oreille county where the local wolf group recorded. They said they would not have a dog outside in that area.
I would expect, wolves will not populate the state evenly so the elk and deer losses will not be uniformally distributed through out the state.
Post by: runamuk on March 03, 2010, 06:22:42 AM
Did that kid say that wolves in yellowstone brought back cutthroat trout? :dunno:
Now Chester don't make fun of the kid, he did say he has done a lot of "research" :rolleyes:
(The anti-predator sentiment on this site is strong. Are their folks here who support wolves returning to WA? I have done a fair amount of research on them because I consider myself an environmentalist and a hunter/fisherman.)
I support NATIVE wolves not the non native invasive species they used to re populate with. I also support grizzlies and wolverines. I also support management just like all other species because this is not untamed unclaimed lands where the wild things can run freely and survive without intervention, humans are here and we are the top predator so its pure foolishness to take us out of the equation. I also know wolves were not eradicated by simply hunting they are far to smart for that they were eradicated with the judicious use of poison so when people say they were hunted to the point of being gone they were not they eradicated they were killed it was not hunting, thats like calling spraying hornets hunting :chuckle:
The wolves need to be managed and there must be recourse when they do damage to livestock/dogs etc those wolves need to be shot otherwise they will become bolder and bolder and eventually we will be recording a real honest to goodness attack on a human by a wolf which is going to seriously suck because it will likely be a child and will have been preventable. Yeah thats my psychic prediction for what is going to happen.
Post by: boneaddict on March 03, 2010, 06:34:06 AM
Post by: Hangfire on March 03, 2010, 06:36:52 AM
The article was a good read. Simplistic sequence.. Shows what happens to a area with no dominate predator (hunter or wolves) as in Yellowstone. The elk over populated, ate all the brush along the streams, few if any beaver dams some areas reduced trout. Wolves came reduced elk by 1/2, brush grew up (beaver food) 12 times as many beaver ponds, more trout.
Managed hunting would have done the same.
Post by: boneaddict on March 03, 2010, 06:49:32 AM
THey're idiots when it comes to wolf numbers in this state. I'm a guy with very limited time on my hands since I have a family, and two jobs, and I seem to know about wolf numbers, locations etc than these guys pulling a wage.
I guess a redneck should take advantage of this. If they don't recognize all these other wolves, then they won't miss them when they disappear. :dunno: A little honesty would go a long ways from Fitkin and crew.
Post by: Hangfire on March 03, 2010, 06:53:51 AM
My granddad moved into the Davenport area at age 18 from Lousiana, about 1916. He told me if you saw a deer track or deer, in that area, it was reported in the local newspaper. He and my grandmother lived in the Hawk creek area. A few years ago in the winter from one location there, I counted over 150 deer at one time.
My wife's folk came from north of Glasgow Montana. When they were growing up, there were the same as no deer or pronghorn in that area. About 15 years ago my wife drove them back to the old homestead. There were deer feeding and bedded in the brush windbrakes her dad had planted as a boy.
Uncontrolled predator (man or beast) can destroy the prey species.
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 03, 2010, 08:14:30 AM
The wolves in WA are not the Mackenzie river wolves released in YNP. The wolves we have here are native animals that are moving (maybe being displaced?) into our state. Who knows about the Blue mtn wolves? Genetic samples will be needed to determine their origin.
Post by: Hangfire on March 03, 2010, 08:38:08 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 03, 2010, 08:43:15 AM
Post by: wolfbait on March 03, 2010, 08:55:26 PM
Support Wolves :dunno: :dunno: No more or less than any other Predator. I am not against them, God put them here for a purpose.
Given the fact that I am a Hunter/Predator I am not going to let my greed for game condemn any of the other Predators needs or rightful place in the big plan for things. All of us have needs and wants, I am not going to consider mine more important than of the other Predators.
I don't think this has anything to do with "greed for game", this wolf issue is more in the, lack of any common sense category . God put these wolves in an area where the country was big and the game bigger, the dumb pelosi's released them in to the lower 48. Bangs said they were looking for a wolf that could really kill elk, and they decided the wolves of Alberta fit the bill. If this don't get stopped you will no longer be a predator, but instead eating foreign beef, unless of course you call being a predator, trapping mice.
Post by: wolfbait on March 03, 2010, 09:09:32 PM
You're right about that- wildlife populations in general have really increased, but it's not because of the extirpation of wolves. It's because we have reasonable (?) hunting laws and people working on creating decent habitat.
The wolves in WA are not the Mackenzie river wolves released in YNP. The wolves we have here are native animals that are moving (maybe being displaced?) into our state. Who knows about the Blue mtn wolves? Genetic samples will be needed to determine their origin.
So tell us what kind of wolves does Oregon have? I have read that their wolves are slopping out of Idaho into Oregon. I don't suppose any of Idaho's wolves come into Washington, do they veer off when they hit the Washington border. What do you suppose they say to each other? "Oh Pelosi" veer left, veer left we just hit the Washington border, or, we just got to get the hell out of this truck before it hits Washington? :chuckle: :chuckle:
Post by: bearpaw on March 03, 2010, 09:21:09 PM
There are 60,000 of these wolves in North America, they are no more endangered than democrats in Washington or republicans in Utah.
Simply put, these wolves need to be managed very carefully and kept to limited numbers in WA, or other predators like you and I will have to find other country to hunt in. No matter how you try to juggle the numbers, the fact is, only so many ungulates (prey) are available for harvest in WA before their breeding numbers begin to dwindle.
If you have too many wolves in WA, with each one averaging 17 elk or 44 deer per year (government numbers), something is going to give. Pure and simple, and so far we have no indication that there will be any limit on wolf numbers or even that hunting will be used as a management tool to keep wolf numbers in check. :twocents:
Like you, I don't want to extinguish wolves fromn the face of the earth, but I think this state needs a responsible management plan.
Post by: bearpaw on March 03, 2010, 09:24:03 PM
Most likely the SE WA wolves are the same origin....
Post by: bearpaw on March 03, 2010, 09:33:02 PM
When 471 wolves are eating elk and 864 wolves are eating deer, there can be 0 human harvest or herds will decline. Throw another 250 wolves (governnment reproduction numbers of roughly 20% to 24% annual reproduction) on the landscape in the next spring and game herds decline anyway.
Now this is why I make so much noise about wolves..... :hello:
Post by: wolfbait on March 03, 2010, 09:37:18 PM
Post by: wolfbait on March 03, 2010, 09:42:33 PM
To elaborate further with facts, hunters currently harvest an average of 8,000 elk and 38,000 deer in all areas of Washington (see page 78, page 83, of the Washiongton Draft wolf plan).
When 471 wolves are eating elk and 864 wolves are eating deer, there can be 0 human harvest or herds will decline. Throw another 250 wolves (governnment reproduction numbers of roughly 20% to 24% annual reproduction) on the landscape in the next spring and game herds decline anyway.
Now this is why I make so much noise about wolves..... :hello:
From studies done in the other states, where these wolves have plenty to eat they are increasing 50%. In 08 Mech said there were estimations of 3000, so the next year the number would double. Washington had 6 confirmed wolf packs in 1992, and up to 200 wolf sightings.
Post by: carpsniperg2 on March 03, 2010, 09:58:20 PM
Post by: Special T on March 03, 2010, 09:59:40 PM
Post by: MichaelJ on March 04, 2010, 09:31:48 AM
Michael
Post by: Shootmoore on March 04, 2010, 09:45:05 AM
Wolfbait, where are you getting you're 6 confirmed wolf packs in WA in 1992???
Michael
I'm not sure how many confirmed packs there were, although I do remember hearing the number 6 before. This National Parks Service Report lists at least 3.
"Are gray wolves reproducing in the North Cascades?
In 1990, adults with pups were seen in the Hozomeen area. This was the first known reproduction of wild wolves in Washington State in at least 50 years! Since 1990, biologists have seen three separate groups of adult wolves with pups in the Cascades. Wolves mate in February or March. About 63 days later a litter averaging six pups is born."
http://www.nps.gov/noca/naturescience/wolves2.htm (http://www.nps.gov/noca/naturescience/wolves2.htm)
Shootmoore
Post by: boneaddict on March 04, 2010, 09:55:48 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 04, 2010, 10:45:36 AM
To elaborate further with facts, hunters currently harvest an average of 8,000 elk and 38,000 deer in all areas of Washington (see page 78, page 83, of the Washiongton Draft wolf plan).
When 471 wolves are eating elk and 864 wolves are eating deer, there can be 0 human harvest or herds will decline. Throw another 250 wolves (governnment reproduction numbers of roughly 20% to 24% annual reproduction) on the landscape in the next spring and game herds decline anyway.
Now this is why I make so much noise about wolves..... :hello:
From studies done in the other states, where these wolves have plenty to eat they are increasing 50%. In 08 Mech said there were estimations of 3000, so the next year the number would double. Washington had 6 confirmed wolf packs in 1992, and up to 200 wolf sightings.
For ease of verification I used the figures out of Washington's own Draft wolf plan and Idaho's published figures. But I hear you wolfbait, in a new landscape with fewer rival wolf packs, it would not surprise me to see 100% population growth. :twocents:
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 04, 2010, 11:17:34 AM
Elk Down 57% in Idaho's Lolo Elk Zone; Wolf Impact Cited
Posted:
Recently completed aerial surveys show a marked decline in elk numbers in game management units 10 and 12, which comprise the Lolo Elk Management Zone. "This survey, combined with ongoing research showing wolves are the primary cause of elk mortality today, is further scientific evidence of the impact wolves are having," Fish and Game Director Cal Groen said.
Post by: wolfbait on March 04, 2010, 12:56:47 PM
Wolfbait, where are you getting you're 6 confirmed wolf packs in WA in 1992???
Michael
Gray Wolves' Return Subject Of Monday Meeting
Times Staff
Wolf-watchers, take note: The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service will take public comments and answer questions about reintroduction of the gray wolf to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho at a Seattle meeting Monday.
It's the first step in developing an environmental impact statement for reintroduction to those areas, said Doug Zimmer, Fish & Wildlife spokesman. The EIS will guide federal officials in determining whether the wolf should be reintroduced in those areas, and how it should be managed if it is.
Why should Seattleites care? Aside from being a controversial topic expected to draw comments from friends and foes of the wolf nationwide, the Yellowstone EIS could serve as a model for a plan to manage wolves that are rehabitating Washington state.
State wildlife agents already have identified six packs of wolves in Washington's Cascades, and more are expected to migrate from Canada to the state's protected forests.
Monday's meeting, from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. at Shorline Community College's Lecture Hall 1605, is an open house. Biologists will be on hand to show a videotape of wolves in the U.S. and answer questions from the public.
Formal public hearings will take place in May 1993. The Yellowstone wolf EIS will be released in 1994, along with a federal
decision.
Copyright (c) 1992 Seattle Times Company, All Rights Reserved.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com:80/archive/?date=19920417&slug=1486887 (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com:80/archive/?date=19920417&slug=1486887)
Post by: wolfbait on March 04, 2010, 01:00:20 PM
By Patty Wren
Wenatchee World
TWISP, Okanogan County - We may not be dancing with wolves, but they're here, their numbers are growing and it is possible to coexist with them in relative peace.
That's the message a Montana wolf specialist and wildlife advocates are trying to get out. .
At a meeting here on grizzly bears in the North Cascades, about 140 residents seemed intrigued.
Particularly when Pat Tucker, a biologist with the National Wildlife Federation, led a full-grown wolf past the audience, sat with her back to it and allowed it to upstage her by chewing loudly on an empty plastic soda bottle.
The presentation was the Okanogan National Forest's way of telling residents that the gray wolf, once slaughtered by the tens of thousands, has been making a quiet comeback in Washington.
In the Okanogan, one or more wolves have been spotted in five separate areas since 1989.
The plan is to let the wolves - moving into old haunts south of Canada after hunting stopped there in the 1970s - reproduce themselves, said Jon Almak, a state Department of Wildlife biologist.
The crowd responded with an audible sigh of relief, then applause and cheers.
Biologists are trying to write a wolf-recovery plan for Washington.
Originally planned as part of a recovery program for the northern Rockies, where wolves were brought in, the effort could become unique to Washington because of the apparently burgeoning population.
For example, 100 sightings were reported in 1981, and last year there were 200, ranging as far south as Mount St. Helens, Almak said.
Federal agencies have spent $3.3 million on wolf research in the Rockies since 1987.
Efforts in Washington, such as howling to find members of the endangered species, began two years ago.
Almak, chairman of a biological research subcommittee, said guidelines are being written to ensure that management, habitat and prey-base goals are met and hunters and the general public are educated.
Enter Tucker, whose appearance at the general meeting and at three schools also was sponsored by the Methow Valley Citizens Council.
Through a slide show depicting wolves at play, over bloody carcasses, howling in chorus and standing watchfully, Tucker spoke of her love and respect for the charismatic animals.
She began with a tape recording of a lone wolf howling, telling people in the audience to imagine themselves - as she'd been when she taped it - alone in the wilderness at nightfall.
Suddenly a stereo-like chorus of howls erupted. You could almost see the hairs raise on the backs of 140 necks.
Tucker grinned at the reaction. "I enjoy being out there with other animals that are my equals," she said. "It's not that I want to sell wolves to everyone, but that you will go away from this program with at least respect for them."
Wolves feed on large game animals, pose somewhat of a threat to cattle, run in family packs of about eight, breed annually, can travel 500 miles and need about 200 square miles per pack to thrive, Tucker said.
"They don't eat humans," she said. "We have documentation of bears - even white-tailed deer - killing people, and that's more common than wolves killing people."
The predators are equally preyed on by the pitfalls of life in the wild. "It's an old wolf that's 8 years old," Tucker said.
"Those of us who want wolves back have got to realize the emotional trauma" to cattlemen of coming upon a bloody calf, she said.
"But most ranchers are never going to have to deal with it.
"Some believe they eat cattle. Some believe they eat only sick, weak mice," Tucker said. "The two sides will never agree. . . .
Ranchers in British Columbia and Alberta have had some problems with predation, but the losses are not significant to the industry, she said, adding that knapweed poses a worse problem.
If prey habitat can be protected, human attitudes changed and wolves freed from human persecution, she said, "We shouldn't have to put a lot of restrictions on human activities."
Copyright (c) 1992 Seattle Times Company, All Rights Reserved.
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19921206&slug=1528536 (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19921206&slug=1528536)
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 04, 2010, 01:22:04 PM
Post by: Special T on March 04, 2010, 02:35:38 PM
Post by: wolfbait on March 04, 2010, 03:05:09 PM
that's poor reporting. any "packs" then were not documented or known. The WDFW is pretty much handcuffed by the process and documentation is a challenge. There were not six documented packs.
aw pelosi, what a crock, So wacoyote all of the wolf sightings back in the 1980's and 90's when fitkin and defenders of pelosi were pushing wolves in Washington were lies? is that what you are saying? You crack me up. Remember the old saying "you can pelosi the fans but not the players". WDFW say the wolves only kill the old and the week also. I think before you start screaming foul on news reporting you should do a tad bit more research. Pushing for Defenders of wildlife's wolves could turn you into a lier.
Post by: wolfbait on March 04, 2010, 03:25:46 PM
I suppose we need to debate what the definition of "is" is.... Do we need to get into the same kind of argument that Bill Clintion had when he said he did not lie about sleeping with Monica Lewinsky? His definition of "Sex" was a little different than most people. :twocents: So now the state,WDFW, USFS or someone else has changed the definition of "Confermed" wolf packs? I think that is the same thing the state did when certain schools couldn't hit the marks for math and English testing for the WASSL.
You nailed it Special T, Now in order to have any real packs they must first be DNA tested, pelosi. Just like in order for a wolf attack to be considered an attack the bugger has to be eating on you,. when I see these big old wolves my first thought is are they bullet proof, and most of them are, I think they grunt a little when hit but then they just run away. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:
If WDFW does not step up to the plate and start managing all game, we will not have any. I strongly recommend if you have the chance, give the wolves the Wyoming treat.
Post by: mulehunter on March 04, 2010, 06:07:03 PM
I suppose we need to debate what the definition of "is" is.... Do we need to get into the same kind of argument that Bill Clintion had when he said he did not lie about sleeping with Monica Lewinsky? His definition of "Sex" was a little different than most people. :twocents: So now the state,WDFW, USFS or someone else has changed the definition of "Confermed" wolf packs? I think that is the same thing the state did when certain schools couldn't hit the marks for math and English testing for the WASSL.
AMEN!
Mulehunter :chuckle:
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on March 05, 2010, 08:19:32 AM
I am not calling the reports of wolf sightings false at all. Many of them were likely wolves. I also think lots of folks see what they want to see. There have been a few reports of a BIG black wolf over here...clustered in a small area around a farm with a black german shepard...people that should know better have reported this dog. So, it is possible that some of the reporting parties are incorrect. :twocents:
I'm not pushing for wolves, but I am pushing for accurate information. That reporting is a joke. BTW wolfbait- we are anxiously awaiting your big release of evidence that the state has released wolves. Where is this white van picture?
Post by: boneaddict on March 05, 2010, 08:58:57 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 05, 2010, 09:04:41 AM
Post by: luvtohnt on March 05, 2010, 09:06:55 AM
Quote
There are wolves in the Teanaway/Manastash
Bone,
Are there wolves in both areas that you have seen? Did you mean to say Taneum? If not then there would be 2 different "packs" because of the freeway. Could you fill me in a little via pm about the Teanaway, I think I may know where it hangs in the summer. I could have swore I saw one last year, but it was for all of 5 seconds and I just shrugged it off as a giant coyote. I would love to get the cameras out and try to get some on film!!
Brandon
Post by: boneaddict on March 05, 2010, 09:09:53 AM
Post by: Skyvalhunter on March 05, 2010, 09:16:57 AM
Post by: bearpaw on March 05, 2010, 09:23:17 AM
Southern Stevens County, Unit 117, wolves took down a bull elk this winter that was found by several individuals, numerous different wolf tracks, too many to determine the exact number of wolves in the pack. The state should know all about this incident, but it has not been confirmed by the state for some reason. :(
Northern Stevens County, Unit 105, wolf has been killed here before by wildlife services that killed ranchers calf. Other wolves have been spotted in the same region and this year at least 3 wolf pups were sighted by numerous different people.
Southern Stevens County, Unit 121, numerous wolves spotted by many residents including a deputy sherrif.
Northern Stevens County, Unit 111, several wolves sighted by local residents who have lived here for years and never seen wolves before. (they have seen coyotes many times before). Last month a local resident saw 3 wolves by her house, next day her german sheperd came up missing and has not been seen since. Been on the radio as missing all week, no sightings by other residents.
Post by: wolfbait on March 05, 2010, 09:39:52 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 05, 2010, 09:46:08 AM
I mean seriously Sky, as frustration with their acute lack of ability or just plain lies, more an dmore will result to that. I mean do they need them hung on a sign post off the highway in order to DNA and confirm.
The amount of wolves on that Idaho/Wa Leclerc creek basin WOULD SCARE YOU. It was bad back in 02, but NOW ITS SCARY
Post by: Shootmoore on March 05, 2010, 09:46:19 AM
We will continue to be fed Pelosi about the wolves until people are able to force the WDFW to confirm each and every pack.
Shootmoore
Post by: bearpaw on March 05, 2010, 10:06:21 AM
Post by: boneaddict on March 05, 2010, 10:16:29 AM
Post by: mulehunter on March 06, 2010, 09:11:00 AM
Mulehunter :)
Post by: rougheye on March 06, 2010, 09:16:10 AM
I have been trailCamera full time in Tenannaway for almost four years even two trailcamera with motion camera out there. No sight of wolves. But Possible anytime Now. I am going to move little NORTH! where High Country keep all Herds upper. Might will be interesting. Hopefully gate road is cleared from Snow. Heard it still 14 inches. Cant wait till its clear so I can open gate and go upper HIGH!
Mulehunter :)
Ive been waiting for you to see some up there . It seems like alot of people around here think they have seen them . Pretty reliable sources too
Post by: KillerMiller on March 06, 2010, 09:35:08 AM
I have been trailCamera full time in Tenannaway for almost four years even two trailcamera with motion camera out there. No sight of wolves. But Possible anytime Now. I am going to move little NORTH! where High Country keep all Herds upper. Might will be interesting. Hopefully gate road is cleared from Snow. Heard it still 14 inches. Cant wait till its clear so I can open gate and go upper HIGH!
Mulehunter :)
There is several trail cam pictures/video of wildlife posted on youtube.com, yet to see a wolf on them though. :)
Post by: boneaddict on March 06, 2010, 10:22:55 AM
Post by: mulehunter on March 07, 2010, 06:22:30 PM
Mulehunter :)
Post by: teal101 on March 09, 2010, 04:41:37 PM
I know a miner up the chiwawa who has claimed to have seen wolves and grizzlies up there. I also know of a guy who grew up south of the tumwater canyon who has seen a grizzly and even talked to a WDFW official in the area about them. I have no doubts there maybe both in the Lake Wenatchee vicinity.