Lake Chelan Wolves

[boneaddict]

Holy Pelosi, my first instict after reading Jeremy's post was to dive for cover......now I need to peek at what was said afterwards. 

[Hangfire]

The reference to wolves being responsible for the increase of Cutthroat trout, probably came from the article titles Wolf Wars, last issue of National Geographic.

The article was a good read. Simplistic  sequence.. Shows what happens to a area with no dominate predator (hunter or wolves) as in Yellowstone. The elk over populated, ate all the brush along the streams, few if any beaver dams some areas reduced trout.  Wolves came reduced elk by 1/2, brush grew up (beaver food) 12 times as many beaver ponds, more trout.

Managed hunting would have done the same.

[boneaddict]

Biggest reason for the push for wolves by anti-hunters is essentially there is no need for hunting with a stable healthy wolf population.  THere is no excess.  Simplistically you can get rid of hunting then.  Meets their agenda, but is short sided as hunting does alot more for game than just killing it.  MONEY, TIME(volunteer), Stewardship, to name a few.   Anti hunters tend to be shortsided in their view of what conservationists real hunters are.  They only see red.   What amazes me is that they support the carnage of the wolf.  Some must still be thinking Disney, or of the gopher eating ones. 

THey're idiots when it comes to wolf numbers in this state.   I'm a guy with very limited time on my hands since I have a family, and two jobs, and I seem to know about wolf numbers, locations etc than these guys pulling a wage. 

I guess a redneck should take advantage of this.  If they don't recognize all these other wolves, then they won't miss them when they disappear.    A little honesty would go a long ways from Fitkin and crew. 

[Hangfire]

We read a lot about the great wildlife recovery effort starting in the 20's and 30's, concerning, elk, deer, sheep, pronghorn etc,  with this recovery was  the elimination  of wolves.

My granddad moved into the Davenport area at age 18 from Lousiana, about 1916. He told me if you saw a deer track or deer, in that area, it was reported in the local newspaper. He and my grandmother lived in the Hawk creek area. A few years ago in the winter from one location there, I counted over 150 deer at one time.

My wife's folk came from north of Glasgow Montana.  When they were growing up, there were the same as no deer or pronghorn in that area. About 15 years ago my wife drove them back to the old homestead. There were deer feeding and bedded in the brush windbrakes her dad had planted as a boy.

Uncontrolled predator (man or beast) can destroy the prey species.

[WAcoyotehunter]

You're right about that- wildlife populations in general have really increased, but it's not because of the extirpation of wolves.  It's because we have reasonable (?) hunting laws and people working on creating decent habitat. 

The wolves in WA are not the Mackenzie river wolves released in YNP.  The wolves we have here are native animals that are moving (maybe being displaced?) into our state.  Who knows about the Blue mtn wolves?  Genetic samples will be needed to determine their origin. 

[Hangfire]

I didn't mean to imply the wolf removal was the only reason that wildlife numbers increased. Habitat is probably the biggest single factor and controlling the annual harvest by hunting or predation a part.  All part of management. This country is to populated to have all things outdoors with out management.

[boneaddict]

apparantly there are too many personal agendas to accomplish sound wildlife management though.  This is what generally promotes the "wild west" approach as frustration builds.

[wolfbait]

Support Wolves    No more or less than any other Predator.  I am not against them, God put them here for a purpose.


Given the fact that I am a Hunter/Predator I am not going to let my greed for game condemn any of the other Predators needs or rightful place in the big plan for things. All of us have needs and wants, I am not going to consider mine more important than of the other Predators.

I don't think this has anything to do with "greed for game", this wolf issue is more in the, lack of any common sense category . God put these wolves in an area where the country was big and the game bigger, the dumb pelosi's released them in to the lower 48. Bangs said they were looking for a wolf that could really kill elk, and they decided the wolves of Alberta fit the bill. If this don't get stopped you will no longer be a predator, but instead eating foreign beef, unless of course you call being a predator, trapping mice.

[wolfbait]

You're right about that- wildlife populations in general have really increased, but it's not because of the extirpation of wolves.  It's because we have reasonable (?) hunting laws and people working on creating decent habitat.  

The wolves in WA are not the Mackenzie river wolves released in YNP.  The wolves we have here are native animals that are moving (maybe being displaced?) into our state.  Who knows about the Blue mtn wolves?  Genetic samples will be needed to determine their origin.  

So tell us what kind of wolves does Oregon have? I have read that their wolves are slopping out of Idaho into Oregon. I don't suppose any of Idaho's wolves come into Washington, do they veer off when they hit the Washington border. What do you suppose they say to each other?  "Oh Pelosi" veer left, veer left we just hit the Washington border, or, we just got to get the hell out of this truck before it hits Washington? 

[bearpaw]

killbilly, I too consider myself a predator and like all predators I compete for prey. One of the biggest differences between myself and the wolves is that I have to follow laws and bag limits. The wolves do not follow laws and bag limits. Therefore, in a carefully balanced ecosystem such as we have here in WA, there simply is not enough room for unmanaged predator numbers that know no bag limits.

There are 60,000 of these wolves in North America, they are no more endangered than democrats in Washington or republicans in Utah.

Simply put, these wolves need to be managed very carefully and kept to limited numbers in WA, or other predators like you and I will have to find other country to hunt in. No matter how you try to juggle the numbers, the fact is, only so many ungulates (prey) are available for harvest in WA before their breeding numbers begin to dwindle.

If you have too many wolves in WA, with each one averaging 17 elk or 44 deer per year (government numbers), something is going to give. Pure and simple, and so far we have no indication that there will be any limit on wolf numbers or even that hunting will be used as a management tool to keep wolf numbers in check.

Like you, I don't want to extinguish wolves fromn the face of the earth, but I think this state needs a responsible management plan.

[bearpaw]

wolfbait, it's a fact Idaho wolves are moving into NE Oregon, the ones found dead on the highways had Idaho numbers on them.

Most likely the SE WA wolves are the same origin....

[bearpaw]

To elaborate further with facts, hunters currently harvest an average of 8,000 elk and 38,000 deer in all areas of Washington (see page 78, page 83, of the Washiongton Draft wolf plan).

When 471 wolves are eating elk and 864 wolves are eating deer, there can be 0 human harvest or herds will decline. Throw another 250 wolves (governnment reproduction numbers of roughly 20% to 24% annual reproduction) on the landscape in the next spring and game herds decline anyway.

Now this is why I make so much noise about wolves.....

[wolfbait]

Well I know the wolves that we have here in the Methow are big ones, they are not the same wolves that we saw fleetingly 30 years ago. I have talk to many people here in the Valley who have seen these wolves, and that is one thing we can all agree on.

[wolfbait]

To elaborate further with facts, hunters currently harvest an average of 8,000 elk and 38,000 deer in all areas of Washington (see page 78, page 83, of the Washiongton Draft wolf plan).

When 471 wolves are eating elk and 864 wolves are eating deer, there can be 0 human harvest or herds will decline. Throw another 250 wolves (governnment reproduction numbers of roughly 20% to 24% annual reproduction) on the landscape in the next spring and game herds decline anyway.

Now this is why I make so much noise about wolves.....

From studies done in the other states, where these wolves have plenty to eat they are increasing 50%. In 08 Mech said there were estimations of 3000, so the next year the number would double. Washington had 6 confirmed wolf packs in 1992, and up to 200 wolf sightings.

[carpsniperg2]