Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2010, 02:57:05 PM
While upsetting, it would be a lot more tolerable if the other user groups felt the same. However there are now more opportunities for muzzleloader and modern firearm than archery. Please explain???
Modern firearm has a spike only season, plus 55 bull tags, 1 special rut tag and 15 anterless tags; total special permit is 71
Muzzleloader has a spike only season, plus 10 bull tags and 25 anterless tags; total special permit is 35.
Where are the Archery anterless permit opportunities? I understand that rifle and muzzleloader hunters are probably high fiving each other but bowhunters better take notice. This is just the beginning!
Post by: WDFW-SUX on April 15, 2010, 02:59:13 PM
Post by: DRENALINJUNKIE on April 15, 2010, 05:34:39 PM
Post by: hirshey on April 15, 2010, 06:44:41 PM
I know perhaps an antlerless tag or two would be grand... but still sounds like there are opportunites to be had. I think there will always be a place for archers here in WA.
Post by: nw_bowhunter on April 15, 2010, 06:50:41 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 15, 2010, 07:26:03 PM
Post by: Crunchy on April 15, 2010, 07:27:11 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2010, 07:57:38 PM
Is my math incorrect or is 60 not greater than 35? :chuckle:
I know perhaps an antlerless tag or two would be grand... but still sounds like there are opportunites to be had. I think there will always be a place for archers here in WA.
Not sure why I bother but 71 > 60 and shooting a spike with a bow is just a little bit more difficult. Oh and muzzleloaders cow permits at 25 is greater than zero. I would buy a muzzleloader tag if I could hunt with my bow.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2010, 08:06:06 PM
Archery hunters still have the best units and the best seasons. If you have an archery tag, you don't need a special permit. Just hunt the general seasons. If you don't agree, then buy a rifle tag instead. :dunno:
The general archery season for 356 is now spike only because too many cows were being taken yet they are still giving out 40 cow permits? That doesn't add up. Harvesting a spike with a bow is much more difficult than with a rifle or muzzleloader in my opinion.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 15, 2010, 08:09:00 PM
I wish they would cut 3-4 from the start of the seaon and put them on the end. Rutt really kicks into gear when the season is bout over. For elk that is.
Agreed Crunchy but as Bobcat points out, most already think our season timing is too good. This is likely to never happen. Also from past conversations with biologists, hunting the last 10 days of September would be too hard on the elk and prohibit proper breeding. However they ignored their own logic by introducing the rifle tag from Sept 20 to the 24th.
Post by: spike on April 15, 2010, 08:39:46 PM
Post by: Ray on April 15, 2010, 08:47:56 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 15, 2010, 08:49:22 PM
Post by: nw_bowhunter on April 15, 2010, 08:50:27 PM
Post by: spike on April 15, 2010, 08:59:27 PM
Post by: bobcat on April 15, 2010, 09:03:10 PM
Post by: nw_bowhunter on April 15, 2010, 09:19:03 PM
Post by: danceswitharrows on April 15, 2010, 09:20:09 PM
That's a good point spike. The latest harvest report (2008) shows archery hunters with a 9.1% success rate on elk, versus a 6.2% success rate for modern firearm elk hunters.
Thats just because archers are just better hunters 8)
Post by: spike on April 15, 2010, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on April 15, 2010, 10:16:18 PM
I am a muzzy hunter and i hate the department, we have the worst season and the least amount of units to hunt so we cram a ton f people into a few units, the department says the success is to great for muzzy but what they don't understand is if you spread out the hunters you would reduce the harvest.
We all need to stick together and stop fighting amongst the users to keep our opportunities.
Post by: DOUBLELUNG on April 15, 2010, 10:21:18 PM
I some what agree but I don't know that most average rifles of today are that much better than most average rifles of 20 years ago.I admit that I know very little about muzzle loaders.I truly believe that an average compound bow of today is 10 times better and easier to shoot than a top of the line bow of 20 years agoI completely agree that we are losing archery hunting opportunity due to advances in the harvest efficiency of modern archery tackle. 20 years ago, I shot every day all summer to consistently hit a paper plate at 50 yards. I can do the same with a properly tuned and equipped modern bow in a couple of hours, after a year w/o shooting.
Post by: dreamingbig on April 16, 2010, 06:41:28 AM
That's right. A 270, 30-06, 300 Mag, etc, from 20 years ago was just as good as what we have today. The average person and average rifle back then was good to 300 yards, same as today. I think spike is onto something.
Come on man! Are you serious? It is not easier to harvest an elk with a bow than a rifle and/or muzzleloader. Sure equipment is better for archery than it used to be but a muzzleloader isn't what it used to be either. Taking away antlerless harvest will make that success rate plummet (I will bet it will be less than 5%).
I agree with WDFW-Sux that we need to stick together but the changes in the past 3 years have been very one sided. I have written letters to the department but it is falling on deaf ears.
Your issue with the change in the permit system and how they handled the entire process is the same thing the archery user group has been dealing with for the past 3 years.
Post by: littlemac on April 16, 2010, 07:04:31 AM
It does suck for sure (all around) and I too agree with the argument on the improvement of equipment on both sides. Before range finders, more powerful optics and proliferation of larger caliber rifles, not many hunters were skilled enough to make 300 yard plus shots. Now if you can't shot 300 in a lot of areas you may struggle to get a shot. The advent of the compound bow changed the archery hunts in that it allowed many more hunters to feel comfortable in their ability to use a bow and they chose to switch from modern to archery to improve their odds.
Now, the trend has gotten to a point that it has led to the greater success rates and that is with the larger number of archers. It may be that archery's success in drawing more people to the sport has led to this reduction of opportunity being managed by season length and tag availability.
Regardless, we are all getting regulated into a box. :twocents:
Post by: h2ofowlr on April 16, 2010, 07:24:30 AM
Post by: bobcat on April 16, 2010, 08:09:32 AM
That's right. A 270, 30-06, 300 Mag, etc, from 20 years ago was just as good as what we have today. The average person and average rifle back then was good to 300 yards, same as today. I think spike is onto something.
Come on man! Are you serious? It is not easier to harvest an elk with a bow than a rifle and/or muzzleloader. Sure equipment is better for archery than it used to be but a muzzleloader isn't what it used to be either. Taking away antlerless harvest will make that success rate plummet (I will bet it will be less than 5%).
I never said it was easier to get an elk with a bow. But obviously, it is. Higher success rates tell us that. If the seasons were at the same times then it would be a different story. But hunting during the rut makes all the difference. Plus the late archery season when snow pushes them down.
They only took away antlerless in two units. I don't think success rates are going to go down, overall. Most people will simply hunt a different unit.
Post by: rasbo on April 16, 2010, 08:18:13 AM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 16, 2010, 08:26:03 AM
bows are way more efficient and therefore I believe regs should change accordingly...I hear guys talking and bragging 50 60 80 yrd shots well that's good muzzy range...I guess the guys without wheels and cams would have the legitimate gripe here..But that's just me...
60 and 80 yard shots are not ethical with a bow, but that is just me... The arrow doesn't get there fast enough if the animal decides to take a step or moves at the moment of release.
Post by: boneaddict on April 16, 2010, 09:06:46 AM
Its human nature to try to be competetive whether thats with a fellow bowhunter, or another "weapon" type. Very few have the will power or drive to limit themselves with technology. Its a vain effort, but I can feel good about it. If you talk about it or state your opinion, then we get the big speech about the demise of our sport becasue we aren't sticking together....or we get the speech that the traditional guys are snobs....blah blah. Point is, if you want a MODERN FIREARM, then you will have SHORTer seasons.
Post by: Holg3107 on April 16, 2010, 09:12:02 AM
While I agree that the newer archery equipment makes it easier to hold an arrow for longer and has definitely made it possible to have more success you still have to be within 50 yds (yes i know people shoot animals at 60+ but that is rare). what the technology has done is allowed more people to get into archery and have the potential to harvest an animal with a bow that with the old equipment they would not have had that opportunity. :twocents:
Post by: bobcat on April 16, 2010, 09:16:42 AM
Post by: boneaddict on April 16, 2010, 09:17:16 AM
Maybe they figure there are already late hunt oppurtunities for archery guys, so they don't necessarily need to have special permit hunts. :dunno:
Post by: bobcat on April 16, 2010, 09:21:25 AM
I really don't think that the success rates are very valid in this discusson. If you analyze it a bit more you will notice that the overall 2008 harvest statistics have archery at 9.5% and have modern at 8.5%. Pretty sure a 1% difference is within the standard deviation.also there is a huge difference in success rates of special permit hunts.
Yes, the success rate I quoted was for general seasons, which is when the majority of elk are killed anyway. 6.2% for modern firearm and 9.1% for archery is fairly significant, I would say.
Post by: rougheye on April 16, 2010, 09:25:12 AM
I really don't think that the success rates are very valid in this discusson. If you analyze it a bit more you will notice that the overall 2008 harvest statistics have archery at 9.5% and have modern at 8.5%. Pretty sure a 1% difference is within the standard deviation.also there is a huge difference in success rates of special permit hunts. Moderns are always at least 2x as successful as the archers. That tells me that the season dates have little validity in saying that archers are more successful base on the fact that they hunt the rut. What it says is that archers tend to have a higher percentage of experienced hunters. Many times it has come up that the same 5% of hunters kill 90% of the animals.I agree . Any bowhunter on here knows that shooting is just a small piece of the puzzle . The multi season permits are a joke IMO . Hundreds of archers out there that are not dedicated bowmen and you should be dedicated to archery hunt .
While I agree that the newer archery equipment makes it easier to hold an arrow for longer and has definitely made it possible to have more success you still have to be within 50 yds (yes i know people shoot animals at 60+ but that is rare). what the technology has done is allowed more people to get into archery and have the potential to harvest an animal with a bow that with the old equipment they would not have had that opportunity. :twocents:
Post by: adam.WI on April 16, 2010, 09:38:30 AM
My thoughts would be there are a lot more people hunting modern that never get out of there truck. To say archery hunters are better hunters is crap, but with that said not many people buy an archery tag with the intent to drive around and shoot one of the road. Not to point fingers at any one but that is what a fair number of modern hunters do.I really don't think that the success rates are very valid in this discusson. If you analyze it a bit more you will notice that the overall 2008 harvest statistics have archery at 9.5% and have modern at 8.5%. Pretty sure a 1% difference is within the standard deviation.also there is a huge difference in success rates of special permit hunts.
Yes, the success rate I quoted was for general seasons, which is when the majority of elk are killed anyway. 6.2% for modern firearm and 9.1% for archery is fairly significant, I would say.
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on April 16, 2010, 10:24:37 AM
In my honest opinion, the reason for lack of "special permits", for Archery has more to do with $$$$$ than anything else, The largest percentage of licence buyers/permit applicants are modern firearm users, second comes archery (a change from the past) and Muzzle-loaders are the smallest user group.
Muzzle loaders have the shortest season, but they actually do get the better part of the rut (especially on the west side) and the main reason for their permits is to allow the WDFW to control WHAT they harvest, by controlling numbers of permit holders (kind of like a quota system)
The lack of special permits for archery has more to do with opportunity, I mean when we already have antlerless hunts in 3 point minimum areas, what kind of permit would we want ?
As far as East-side, and "quality" hunts...I think we are getting robbed, but again it is about $$$, the WDFW definitely takes into account HOW MANY SPECIAL PERMIT APPLICATIONS CAN THEY SELL, I mean, why sell a few hundred applications, when you can sell THOUSANDS ?
It is unfortunate that our WDFW is in the business of providing jobs, more than opportunity, but this is Washington, we have more hunters than game, more private land than public, and more restrictive rules than any other western state.
Things are probably going to get worse before they get better, but if you look at our historical harvests, as far as TOTALS, NOT PERCENTAGES, you will notice that it is pretty even, if not improving.
Post by: hunt4 on April 16, 2010, 10:44:57 AM
Quote
6.2% for modern firearm and 9.1% for archery is fairly significant, I would say.
give me # not percentages how many Elk does 6.2 %= ? What are the # of rifle hunters that get out of there truck vs. a bowhunter.
How many rifle tags just sit in camp and enjoy just being there, My thoughts are there is just a way differant mentality for the different user groups. Those # I think are a bit quid.
Post by: WDFW-SUX on April 16, 2010, 10:47:05 AM
Post by: STIKNSTRINGBOW on April 16, 2010, 11:26:38 AM
Quote
but if you look at our historical harvests, as far as TOTALS, NOT PERCENTAGESAs far as numbers...
in 1997 there were 220,547 Deer tags purchased.
31,525 deer harvested.
24,538 by modern.
2344 by archery.
1180 by muzzleloader
there were 68,492 Elk tags purchased
4919 Elk harvested
1941 by modern.
1071 by Archery.
701 by muzzleloader.
In 2008 there were 167,967 Deer tags purchased.
35116 deer harvested.
24403 by modern.
4897 by archery.
2281 by muzzleloader.
There were 107,915 Elk tags purchased
6826 Elk harvested.
4042 by modern.
1669 by archery.
1101 by muzzleloader.
So there are less deer hunters, but MORE deer being harvested, and ALMOST TWICE as many Elk hunters, and a similar number, with a 25-30% increase, of Elk being harvested.....
Post by: carpsniperg2 on April 16, 2010, 11:55:31 AM
Post by: bbarnes on April 17, 2010, 01:09:20 PM
Post by: bbarnes on April 17, 2010, 01:22:57 PM
Post by: hunt4 on April 17, 2010, 10:00:10 PM
modern 2,756 (2,385 bulls) 47,370 hunters, but 70,252 tags purchased
Archery 1,538 (845 bulls) 17,509 huntes
muzzle 645 (484 bulls) 11,266 hunters
special perments
Modern Firearm hunters=3,215 bulls=378 cows=908 harvest=1,286 success=40.0%
Archery hunters=614 bulls=95 cows=36 harvest=131 success=21.3 %
muzzle hunters=1,424 bulls=65 cows=391 harvest=456 success=32.0%
Post by: steen on April 20, 2010, 12:17:54 PM
Post by: onepissedoffhunter on April 25, 2010, 11:21:48 PM
Has anyone given any thought to how much more efficient archery equipment has become in recent years? A compound bow from the early 90's is junk compaired to today's arrow flinging devices.Archery seasons are the most liberal because bows are the most primitive.It used to take a ton of skill and practice to get good with a bow now all you need is about a grand and a couple weeks of practice.If we really want to see longer and better seasons, at some point we might need to go back to traditional archery.Just my 2 cents worth.Obviously you have no clue how much a new bow costs as you quote prices for a bow in the 90's. Your obviously not a bow hunter. Don't worry, this years regulations makes the general season just as appealing to archers switching over to your season and or hunting with bows in the general season. You too will be crying when you see the increase in #'s of hunters for the general riffle. It used to be about the challenge and the silence out there with no riffles, now it will be about condensing all hunters into tight quarters and smaller units with less space. Good luck finding a camp in the general!
Post by: onepissedoffhunter on April 26, 2010, 12:09:40 AM
Who cares about the success rate of bow vs. riffle or muzzy. Those stories of some bow hunters taking animals at an average of 75 yards is a joke. OR success rate comparisons, just worry about your own. How often do you get an unobstructed shot even at 40 yards espeacially on the west side? They just want you to believe they killed an animal at that distance, and their full of crap. Oh yeah and early season archery isn't really in the rut, and late season for archers is always up high, just look at the not so attractive units open to them later in the season, its the same as early season.
All of us will soon be holding riffles in our hands hunting together on crowded unmaintained roads, in smaller units, paying top dollar for tags and permits. The regulations state it boldly. Just look at the increase in non-resident washington tags...($1800). Who would ever pay that? We will all be paying higher fees for less management and less hunting opportunity but increased crowds. This does no good for the general season as they will find an explosion of more hunters and less space when archers cross over this year and in the near future. Time to hunt another state, and let the salaries of WDFW be paid by someone else. Good luck to everyone this year hunting in washington as future looks very dissappointing for hunters of all types.
Post by: bobcat on April 26, 2010, 09:15:44 AM
Just look at the increase in non-resident washington tags...($1800). Who would ever pay that?
Not sure where you're getting the $1800 figure. I just looked and for a non-resident it's $674 to hunt both deer and elk, which is really not that high, considering we have over-the-counter tags that they can purchase at the last minute and then go hunt, pretty much anywhere in the state.
I also don't understand why you're so down on the archery opportunities in this state. They have the best seasons and the best units to hunt. Sometime you should look at the muzzleloader seasons and you'll see that archery hunters have it so much better.
Post by: kramman on April 27, 2010, 09:30:49 AM
Post by: TeacherMan on April 27, 2010, 09:35:37 AM
Post by: PolarBear on April 27, 2010, 09:42:58 AM
Archery hunters still have the best units and the best seasons. If you have an archery tag, you don't need a special permit. Just hunt the general seasons. If you don't agree, then buy a rifle tag instead. :dunno::yeah:
Agree 100%
If you can't get it done in the 2+ full months that we have for archery (in one unit or another) then it is time to pick up a rifle. Who needs a special archery permit for a stinking doe or cow?
Post by: wabow on April 27, 2010, 10:32:59 AM
Don
Post by: haus on April 27, 2010, 11:20:56 AM
I was going to say a lot of things that have already been said, I agree that we need to quit arguing about season disparity, and who uses what.amen.
In my honest opinion, the reason for lack of "special permits", for Archery has more to do with $$$$$ than anything else, The largest percentage of licence buyers/permit applicants are modern firearm users, second comes archery (a change from the past) and Muzzle-loaders are the smallest user group.
Muzzle loaders have the shortest season, but they actually do get the better part of the rut (especially on the west side) and the main reason for their permits is to allow the WDFW to control WHAT they harvest, by controlling numbers of permit holders (kind of like a quota system)
The lack of special permits for archery has more to do with opportunity, I mean when we already have antlerless hunts in 3 point minimum areas, what kind of permit would we want ?
As far as East-side, and "quality" hunts...I think we are getting robbed, but again it is about $$$, the WDFW definitely takes into account HOW MANY SPECIAL PERMIT APPLICATIONS CAN THEY SELL, I mean, why sell a few hundred applications, when you can sell THOUSANDS ?
It is unfortunate that our WDFW is in the business of providing jobs, more than opportunity, but this is Washington, we have more hunters than game, more private land than public, and more restrictive rules than any other western state.
Things are probably going to get worse before they get better, but if you look at our historical harvests, as far as TOTALS, NOT PERCENTAGES, you will notice that it is pretty even, if not improving.
Post by: haus on April 27, 2010, 11:35:52 AM
Post by: luvtohnt on April 27, 2010, 12:28:02 PM
Brandon
Post by: dreamingbig on April 27, 2010, 01:07:06 PM
:yeah:
Agree 100%
If you can't get it done in the 2+ full months that we have for archery (in one unit or another) then it is time to pick up a rifle. Who needs a special archery permit for a stinking doe or cow?
[/quote]
How do you come up with two plus months to hunt for elk with a bow?
Post by: dreamingbig on April 27, 2010, 01:07:54 PM
But we get (bow hunters) GMU 346 cow or spike to hunt! First time in 20 years you can go in the early season and shoot a cow!!! Massacre!!! IT will more than make up for the cow tags...
I disagree. The success rate will not be what you think it is.
Post by: kramman on April 27, 2010, 02:04:49 PM
Post by: WDFW-SUX on April 27, 2010, 02:06:36 PM
Post by: kramman on April 27, 2010, 02:15:55 PM
As soon as the facts are brought to light the only thing left is to throw insults
Post by: rougheye on April 27, 2010, 02:42:52 PM
actually the more i read the hunting regs. the more pissed i get.the arguement that the archers are getting screwed holds no water NONE!!!i.e for quality bull tags in the peaches ridge, observatory goose prairie bethel and rimrock hunts combined tags break down as follows:modern firearm total tags 5; archery total tags 337;muzzle 68.yes the rifle hunters get 360 bull permits but tell me how one user group who has less then 1/3 of the hunting public gets close to 44% of all bull tags combined in these units.Out of 770 bull elk tags in these units modern firearm get 365 archers 337 and muzzle 68.and your the one complaining.Its even worse for deer I dont even hunt elk.If you cant stand to archery hunt in this state then buy a modern or muzzy tag.To me it seems that archers have been spoiled for so long that now that they are feeling what the rest of us felt for years BEND OVER AND TAKE IT LIKE A MANhmm , not an archery hunter ? Thanks for the insight , sorry your soooo pissed :dunno: Not sure why it matters to you but atleast we know where you stand . Whew :hello:
Post by: dreamingbig on April 27, 2010, 02:43:22 PM
If you cant stand to archery hunt in this state then buy a modern or muzzy tag.
I would buy a muzzy tag if they let you hunt with a bow during the season.
Post by: Snapshot on April 27, 2010, 03:16:48 PM
archery hunters for years have had great seasons.... Your season in some parts of the state last 6 weeks including hunting during the peak rut. I talk to archer hunters at work about this and they just smile knowing that THEY have great seasons.
actually the more i read the hunting regs the more pissed i get.
Everyone is free to choose an archery tag.
Post by: garyltbh on April 27, 2010, 04:36:00 PM
Post by: granola/hippyslayer on April 28, 2010, 07:56:09 PM
actually the more i read the hunting regs. the more pissed i get.the arguement that the archers are getting screwed holds no water NONE!!!i.e for quality bull tags in the peaches ridge, observatory goose prairie bethel and rimrock hunts combined tags break down as follows:modern firearm total tags 5; archery total tags 337;muzzle 68.yes the rifle hunters get 360 bull permits but tell me how one user group who has less then 1/3 of the hunting public gets close to 44% of all bull tags combined in these units.Out of 770 bull elk tags in these units modern firearm get 365 archers 337 and muzzle 68.and your the one complaining.Its even worse for deer I dont even hunt elk.If you cant stand to archery hunt in this state then buy a modern or muzzy tag.To me it seems that archers have been spoiled for so long that now that they are feeling what the rest of us felt for years BEND OVER AND TAKE IT LIKE A MANgood point on the special hunt, but how am I as an archer supposed to be capable of competing against a smoke pole in the late season that we now share. effective ranges are drastically different. :twocents:
Post by: rasbo on April 29, 2010, 04:17:53 AM
actually the more i read the hunting regs. the more pissed i get.the arguement that the archers are getting screwed holds no water NONE!!!i.e for quality bull tags in the peaches ridge, observatory goose prairie bethel and rimrock hunts combined tags break down as follows:modern firearm total tags 5; archery total tags 337;muzzle 68.yes the rifle hunters get 360 bull permits but tell me how one user group who has less then 1/3 of the hunting public gets close to 44% of all bull tags combined in these units.Out of 770 bull elk tags in these units modern firearm get 365 archers 337 and muzzle 68.and your the one complaining.Its even worse for deer I dont even hunt elk.If you cant stand to archery hunt in this state then buy a modern or muzzy tag.To me it seems that archers have been spoiled for so long that now that they are feeling what the rest of us felt for years BEND OVER AND TAKE IT LIKE A MANgood point on the special hunt, but how am I as an archer supposed to be capable of competing against a smoke pole in the late season that we now share. effective ranges are drastically different. :twocents:
what do the animals keep a certain distance from you when the muzzies are out there?
Post by: native-1 on April 29, 2010, 11:57:33 PM
Post by: dreamingbig on April 30, 2010, 02:30:31 PM
Well i guess i happy i have my tribal tags.lol.and the funny part is they are free.
There is no free lunch.
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 03, 2010, 11:22:51 AM
yeah.. I agree with bobcat.. Been bowhunting 30 yrs now and thats why... better opportunity BUT the more people getting involved will mess it up sooner your later... Just lost my elk hunting area due to bad judgement in the field last year by some bowhunters... Well according to the game dept. who opened a season for 3 months and everyone went and bought a bow tag and surrounded a herd along a public highway which is the boundry...nothen but open fields where EVERYONE CAN SEE YOU... BAD JUDGEMENT OR NOT??? OPEN AREA BUT WATCH OUT YOUR TAG IS ONLY GOOD FOR WATCHING NOT HARVESTING......
Post by: BOWHUNTER45 on May 03, 2010, 11:30:46 AM
DREAMING BIG
Well I do thank my local tribe ... As much as I complained about tribal hunting it bit me in the butt.. Thanks to the upper skagit tribe I drew a permit of a life time and took my biggest bull ever 349 1/8 in 2008 and i will add it would not of happened without the tribes approval ... thank you BOWHUNTER 45