Post by: MHWASH on June 01, 2011, 07:10:29 PM
I'll be shooting a WA legal muzzy with loose T7 and musket caps.
Post by: Sabotloader on June 01, 2011, 08:43:14 PM
I'm looking for a less expesive alternative to the regular saboted muzzy bullet. I've done a fair amount of looking, mostly at Modern Muzzleloading, and I see there are several options.
I'll be shooting a WA legal muzzy with loose T7 and musket caps.
I think and this is my opinion only... the best less expensive elk bullet would be a Speer .452-300 grain Gold Dot/Deep Curl. They are bonded have a BC of .233 and are really accurate when driven hard. They do not come apart like an XTP can on occasion and expand much like a Nosler Partition.
Here is a picture of some that I tried to blow up shooting them into mud... Palouse clay soil waterbar...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDotPerformance.jpg&hash=1bca29cd7e1d4979939785c948d5e1314a63ccff)
Here is the information sheet from Speer.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDot300a.jpg&hash=850d705188a140149b0bf0cbaff9f87ee4db2298)
Here are the XTP's that I tested the same way...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGD-XTPComp.jpg&hash=aa772a16e80f9d0c7b3a17c3388379a10afa4883)
Post by: Sabotloader on June 01, 2011, 08:45:47 PM
I'm looking for a less expesive alternative to the regular saboted muzzy bullet. I've done a fair amount of looking, mostly at Modern Muzzleloading, and I see there are several options.
I'll be shooting a WA legal muzzy with loose T7 and musket caps.
Another really viable option is a 460 grain Bull Shop conical. During our ML season we are required to shoot full bore conicals and that is my bullet of choice during the ML season
Post by: carpsniperg2 on June 01, 2011, 08:54:38 PM
I'm looking for a less expesive alternative to the regular saboted muzzy bullet. I've done a fair amount of looking, mostly at Modern Muzzleloading, and I see there are several options.
I'll be shooting a WA legal muzzy with loose T7 and musket caps.
I think and this is my opinion only... the best less expensive elk bullet would be a Speer .452-300 grain Gold Dot/Deep Curl. They are bonded have a BC of .233 and are really accurate when driven hard. They do not come apart like an XTP can on occasion and expand much like a Nosler Partition.
Here is a picture of some that I tried to blow up shooting them into mud... Palouse clay soil waterbar...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDotPerformance.jpg&hash=1bca29cd7e1d4979939785c948d5e1314a63ccff)
Here is the information sheet from Speer.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDot300a.jpg&hash=850d705188a140149b0bf0cbaff9f87ee4db2298)
Here are the XTP's that I tested the same way...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGD-XTPComp.jpg&hash=aa772a16e80f9d0c7b3a17c3388379a10afa4883)
For what it's worth on these bullets I have shot all 3 in my 454 casull 250 xtps-noslers and 300g gold dots. The gold dots work the best and hit hard, with good weight retention.
Post by: HighRoad on June 02, 2011, 07:03:07 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 02, 2011, 07:18:11 AM
What would you guess the velocity was when the 300 grain Gold Dots hit the clay bank?
Here are the ballistic reports for the two bullets...
For the 300 grain...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2F300GD110T7-2f.jpg&hash=555ea271f9356a6471bb890f4a6c685e649dc844)
For the 250 grain
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2F452-250GD-BH.jpg&hash=81b35e914071d5e7d9e600b1863d59b12fc5c3cf)
These should be fairly close...
Post by: HighRoad on June 02, 2011, 07:30:55 AM
Post by: MHWASH on June 02, 2011, 11:37:14 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 02, 2011, 03:06:40 PM
Thanks, how would rate the Harverester 300 Scorpoin, compared to the 300 Speer?
I personally have not shot that bullet, the reports that I have read have been mixed. The Scorpian is a bonded bullet also as the copper is applied to the lead, much as the same process as a Powder Belt. The big difference being the hardness of the lead being greater with the Harvester - less likely to pancake and blow up as the PB can if shot to fast.
The Gold Dot/Deep Curl on the other hand has a small copper cup installed in the lead to help control the expansion of the bullet.
Here is a Speer that I bisected - If you look at the 1/2 on the left you can see the copper cup in place in the lead... I did not exactly get the bisect in the middle of the bullet. I was operating with a hack saw...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBi-SectGoldDot-1.jpg&hash=b628a5fe960457ae5e336b32933debd15a3ff96c)
Because of this controlled expansion - I often call the Speer Gold/Deep Curl a 'poor man's Nosler'
Post by: dupedc on June 04, 2011, 07:50:17 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 04, 2011, 08:18:52 AM
Sabotloader, this is some great info! Thanks for taking the time to really show and explain the differences in bullets.
Not a problem I really enjoy the exchange of information...
I truly believe the Speer Gold Dot/Deep Curl to be one of the best production bullets on the market for havesting big game. Also I should say at ML velocities I am not much of a fan of the 'pointy' bullets - I am much more interested in what the bullet does when it gets into the animal.
My favorite ML bullet for big game is really a premium bullet made by Lehigh and now sold through the Knight website.... You would not believe how well these things work
This one for elk
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehigh300DOA.jpg&hash=745411efe692901bdf43e61ca24d9c314dafcd5b)
This is a picture of the family
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehighLength.jpg&hash=350168c821ceda38f1b52918b9b79660581869f9)
Post by: dupedc on June 04, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 04, 2011, 08:39:05 AM
I shoot a Rem ML700 in .54cal - Bullet selection seems to be really limited vs. the .50cal. What would you shoot? I have been using 348gr. Copper PBs.
I have and do shoot a Rem 700ml also, except mine is a 50... They are a great gun!!! And they certainly work well on elk...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010001-2.jpg&hash=87e0cb415f23914069fc0c0e0fc16552e9182a91)
Since yours is a 54 you are somewhat limited in projectiles... Were I you with that gun there would be no doubt in my mind - I would go to the .452/300 Gold Dot/Deep Curl in a 54 sabot, provided that you can find a sabot that will load correctly.
I am not a fan of Power Belts at all - but that is a whole different story....
Send me a PM and we can talk some other options if you want to do a little experimenting this summer...
mike
Post by: dupedc on June 04, 2011, 08:52:22 AM
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on June 04, 2011, 10:43:39 AM
I have shot the lead bullets from knight for almost 10 years with out failure. was thinking of trying something new when they were gone.
Post by: Sabotloader on June 04, 2011, 12:06:26 PM
SO sabotloader i bout a bunch of the nosler partition ML bullets what do you think of those??? Sorry for the thread jack just figured i could ask here. I bought them on sale from nosler for 5 bucks a pack.
I have shot the lead bullets from knight for almost 10 years with out failure. was thinking of trying something new when they were gone.
Remember this is just my opinion... The Nosler partitions are the second best bullet ever made... only because i now think the Lehigh is the best bullet for terminal performance.
I used Nosler Partitions for 40 years and swear by them... The cow in the picture was shot with a .458/300 grain partition at about 170 yards...
You do not get to recover a Nosler from the animal very often, but these two are good examples of Nosler performance. The 300 recovered from an Elk at 170/180 yards. And the 260 from a buck at 130 yards
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FCompositRecov-458-2.jpg&hash=d7743eed1510cba6a236ecc4ca63c2030d7e24c4)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FexpandedNosler.jpg&hash=c66991674e9e6386258be83948dadfa2feb5c67a)
Post by: Jason on June 04, 2011, 12:49:24 PM
Sabotloader, this is some great info! Thanks for taking the time to really show and explain the differences in bullets.:yeah: x2
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on June 04, 2011, 03:16:37 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 04, 2011, 03:19:36 PM
thanks for the opinion. I knew i couldnt go wrong when they were on sale, and they were nosler partitions. hope they shoot well out of my bighorn.
They will...
Post by: WDFW Hates ME!!! on June 04, 2011, 03:25:59 PM
Post by: dupedc on June 04, 2011, 09:11:03 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 04, 2011, 09:18:58 PM
Sabotloader, thanks again for all of your help! On a slightly different topic, I know you shoot a Rem ML700...what sights do you use and/or recommend. Last week I cracked my rear sight and so now I am shopping for something new. I have read the previous threads and the Williams and Tru Globe sights both look incredible. Any insight for the 700?
I really like the peep site... my eyes are really old and I feel the peep with a hood on the front sight really give me a scope effect when I look down through them.
I have both the Lyman Peep and and a couple of Williams FP sights. I really think the Williams FP series is a great sight. It has quarter minute clicks and the .09? apeture is great for hunting... combine that with a front fire sight, a williams ramp and a fire sight hood... in like flint!!!
Here is the setup on my MK-85
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FFPComposite.jpg&hash=de127770bea0b68f1b8bf0d37c22dfdc8c94d40a)
Post by: dupedc on June 04, 2011, 09:25:56 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 04, 2011, 09:55:21 PM
Sweet setup! Looks like you've done all of the homework for us. Time to order it. Thanks again!
Call: Williams 1-800-530-9028 ext 228 - you should get Steve... Tell him which rifle you have and he can set you up... with everything...
You are after a Williams FP-70AP peep sight... but verify that with Steve... and then he can match you with the ramp and front sight you need...
His part prices are a bit higher than you will find on the net... but hs shipping is much cheaper - so it all just about equals out...
Post by: dupedc on June 04, 2011, 10:21:44 PM
Post by: rock on June 05, 2011, 08:30:54 AM
SO sabotloader i bout a bunch of the nosler partition ML bullets what do you think of those??? Sorry for the thread jack just figured i could ask here. I bought them on sale from nosler for 5 bucks a pack.
I have shot the lead bullets from knight for almost 10 years with out failure. was thinking of trying something new when they were gone.
The cow in the picture was shot with a .458/300 grain partition at about 170 yards...
The 300 recovered from an Elk at 170/180 yards. And the 260 from a buck at 130 yards
Now did you shoot those aniamls without a scope at that distance? Just a question. Im trying to think how far i can shoot with mine.
Post by: Sabotloader on June 05, 2011, 08:57:46 AM
Quote
Now did you shoot those aniamls without a scope at that distance? Just a question. Im trying to think how far i can shoot with mine.
No, that animal was shot during regular rifle season here in Idaho so the ML is scoped. I have not hunted with a centerfire in 15 years - anyway big game. ML shooting and hunting is a disease and I have it bad...
Other part of your question, In that situation... and it was an ideal one... Snow on the ground as a back ground, animal standing broadside, me the shooter in a prone position in the snow on a old logging road and behind a water bar using it as a rest.... and with the bullet, the gun and the addition of a Williams FP peep sight - yes! I would take the same shot again... Although, 150 yards is my “self imposed” max with open sights if I have the perfect shot...
Here is a picture of the sight setup on my MK-85
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FFPComposite.jpg&hash=de127770bea0b68f1b8bf0d37c22dfdc8c94d40a)
Here are some additional pictures that show more about the hunt….
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FCompositCowElk.jpg&hash=c6816124be9de6db239fd879e916e9826f46cb08)
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F07elkflollowupcpmposit.jpg&hash=b18bad3bc78a8f83d7c99c9585cf98797f42c77e)
Skidded out with a 4 wheeler and load whole in the truck….
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2Fmikeselk011.jpg&hash=7f57e32cb0b94f074c77e9c3b95660d8491a2414)
Post by: rock on June 05, 2011, 09:10:11 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 05, 2011, 09:59:45 AM
Nice! that bullet looks deadly. What like the full name of it? And where do you find it , as i am in the search for a elk bullet.
Well now, that presents a problem... It is/was a .458-300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point... Problem? Nosler is no longer making this bullet - think they are getting ready for what they feel is coming in the "lead ban". They can be still purchased from Widners Sports, but that may be short lived...
I have made the switch from Noslers, and it was hard to do, to the new Lehigh bullet or as Knight calls them the 'Bloodline'.
http://lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=29 (http://lehighbullets.com/products.asp?cat=29)
or at Knight
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBloodlineBullets.png&hash=9b21d28da321776fcfe678eb258dd5d93e070499)
These are made of solid brass, spun on a CNC lathe - so they are really round and fly accuratey.
I now shoot the Lehigh/Bloodline .458-300 grain DOA in a MMP .458-50 cal sabot.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehigh300DOA.jpg&hash=745411efe692901bdf43e61ca24d9c314dafcd5b)
These bullets work on a completly different theory than expanding bullets, a theory lifted from Germany and after all my testing 'it works'.
This is the family... In this picture the 300 grain bullet is the 'old' 300 grain - the new one is as shown in the first picture.
They are expensive - but worth every penney when it comes to a shot on an elk - cow or bull... This my opinion only, but they and the Nosler allow you a margin of error if your shot is off a couple of inches. I have not harvested an elk with one of these yet, I only started shooting them last year, but with the lighter 250 grain I have done a number on a couple of whitetail.
Post by: Rick on June 06, 2011, 10:01:22 AM
I am not a fan of Power Belts at all - but that is a whole different story....
What is it you don't like about the Power Belts? I shot a couple new rifles over the weekend and the PBs seemed to work well.
I was shooting the copper plated 348gr version from my Traditions Vortek and CVA Eklhorn. With 90gr of T7 they were zipping right through an 8x8 hem-fir timber.
The were easy to load and very accurate as well. I came home thinking I had found my hunting load for both rifles,but now you have me wondering.
Post by: rock on June 06, 2011, 11:23:44 AM
Post by: MHWASH on June 06, 2011, 11:48:21 AM
I'm ready to load the Speers, now can you tell me what Harvester sabot would be best? If it helps I'm shooting a Knight Wolverine.
Post by: Sabotloader on June 06, 2011, 04:58:49 PM
Thanks for all the info, Sabotloader.
I'm ready to load the Speers, now can you tell me what Harvester sabot would be best? If it helps I'm shooting a Knight Wolverine.
Dang! - Colfax - that is not very far from Moscow
I use the MMP HPH-24, for both the 250 grain and the 300 grain, so I assume the Harvester regular smooth long black would be the one for you... Probably this one H5045 LB for the 300 and maybe the H5045 SB (short black) for the 250's.
Post by: MHWASH on June 07, 2011, 05:33:29 AM
I'm going to make y order today, and I sure appreciate the help. I'm unfamilure with the MMP HPH-24, how makes them and when do you find them?
Post by: Sabotloader on June 07, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
No, Colfax is not far from Moscow, Heck I even have some family over there. I was supposed to bear hunt down in the FLoodwoods this spring, but because of the snow I was unable to.
I was told the other day that there was still 86" of snow on Elk Butte, and 126" left in the Freeze Out area!!!
Quote
I'm going to make y order today, and I sure appreciate the help. I'm unfamilure with the MMP HPH-24, how makes them and when do you find them?
www.mmpsabots.com (http://www.mmpsabots.com)
(870) 741-5019
Also remember the prices on the Web site include shipping to your door. They are more expensive than the Harvester @ first look, but by the time you add the shipping from Midway or Midsouth - it all about evens out...
Check your PM's...
mike
Post by: rock on June 09, 2011, 10:01:40 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 11:37:21 AM
Sabotloader, instead of starting a new thread, i decided to ask it on here. Have you ever experimented with the maxi-ball or maxi-hunter? Since in Washington we cant use scopes. Shots wouldnt be farther than 100 yards most of time the time. What about other conicals lead bullets? Or even powerbelts? Just curious to here your thoughts on those. As i am trying to find a short range elk bullet. I am hunting steep thick country. And shots wont be over 100 yards. And i want that elk down right then and there? Can i still get that power with the lighter sabots?
I have shot both the maxi and mini and many other types in my search for the right conical here in Idaho. No doubt they work well for a lot of people… but I am spoiled I do not like the idea of using a short starter to load… I am lazy – I know. I really prefer the slip fit ideal – like loading a sabot.
My search lead me first to ‘No Excuse’ conicals because they were somewhat local (Utah) and Dave is an excellent guy to work with. Then the White guys convinced me to try some Bull Shops from Alaska. Dan will size the bullet to your bore so it becomes a ‘slip fit’. Insert it in the bore and push it done with your thumb then the ram rod.
He makes a lot of different conicals and they price is outstanding. I settled on the .503-460 grain MTNEx. I know it is big but that way I have one conical for both deer and elk. And believe me it works… Dan’s formula for the lead is just right and his NASA green lube is awesome.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FbullshopBullets.jpg&hash=d1befaca8064514007faabd14bb997b864c7bf78)
Oh ya! And they shoot great from either a 1-48, 1-28, and the 1-24 Twist White…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2F07Doe.jpg&hash=dd57d6204c2bc901770eae37c5071a5f4a467352)
Post by: rock on June 09, 2011, 11:44:34 AM
Thanks for answering all my questions.
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 12:23:20 PM
Awsome. So for elk hunting short range, sabot or conical which bullet would you choose? That are still readily available?
Thanks for answering all my questions.
Since I am a fan of velocity (speed) and terminal performance - I am to old to do a lot of tracking or packing... Elk hunting during the regular rifle season, I am going to use the Lehigh/Bloodline .458-300 grain DOA with a MMP sabot... Deer hunting during the regular rifle season... either the .452-250 grain DOA or the the .400-200 grain DOA... During ML season it is a much simpler choice since we are required to use a conical... I will use Dan's Bull Shop - .503-460 grain MTNEx, a .125x.510 shot card and 90 grains of T7-3f...
Post by: rock on June 09, 2011, 12:43:11 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 09, 2011, 04:00:04 PM
Thanks for the help!
no problem... just remember that there is always more than one answer....
mike
Post by: cem3434 on June 11, 2011, 11:25:28 AM
If so, I would like to give them a try in my A&H 50 cal. If they dont, Sabotloader, what would you recommend?
Post by: Sabotloader on June 11, 2011, 12:54:43 PM
Where do you buy the Speer Gold Dot/Deep Curl? I looked on Cabelas and Midway, but didnt see where either of them sold these?
This one for elk and deer to 200 yards.
http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-300gr-45-caldeepcurl-soft-point.asp (http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-300gr-45-caldeepcurl-soft-point.asp)
This one for deer easily to 175 yards....
http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-250gr-gold-dot-hp-45-cal.asp (http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-250gr-gold-dot-hp-45-cal.asp)
Quote
You guys keep talking about .45 cal, but do they make these in .50 cal?
If so, I would like to give them a try in my A&H 50 cal. If they dont, Sabotloader, what would you recommend?
They are a 45 cal bullet (.452) and then you will need a sabot to fit your gun. I am pretty sure that I shot MMP HPH-24's in my A&H or Harvester Smooth black sabots will also work. I would use the Harvester 5045LB with either bullet but a lot of folks like the 5045SB (short black)
Post by: cem3434 on June 11, 2011, 01:21:53 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 11, 2011, 02:58:59 PM
Thanks, I think I will have to give them a try.
They are, in my opinion only, probably the best non-premium priced bullet out there. Here is what they looked after I tried to destroy them...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FGoldDotPerformance.jpg&hash=1bca29cd7e1d4979939785c948d5e1314a63ccff)
And here is a buck-a-bullet - recovered Nosler Partition...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FCompositRecov-458-2.jpg&hash=d7743eed1510cba6a236ecc4ca63c2030d7e24c4)
The Speer Deep Curls are a real decent bullet...
Post by: fair-chase on June 11, 2011, 03:08:51 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on June 11, 2011, 03:40:56 PM
Sabotloader, thanks for all of the great information. Very helpfull.
ubetcha... I am just sharing my information and information I have borrowed from others...
Post by: Karl Blanchard on July 24, 2011, 11:22:22 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on July 24, 2011, 05:08:33 PM
Just got done burning some powder with some 250gr deepcurls and was very happy with how they shot. slinging arrows this year but the wife has a muzzy tag for deer so I think this will be the bullet she will shoot this year. Can't wait to see how it performs on flesh! Thanks for the suggestion Sabotloader. I really enjoy when someone does all the research and groundwork for me :chuckle:
the 250 is a great deer bullet - it is effective and quick if the shooter gets in the area...
Post by: The100Road on August 18, 2011, 05:57:07 PM
Where do you buy the Speer Gold Dot/Deep Curl? I looked on Cabelas and Midway, but didnt see where either of them sold these?
This one for elk and deer to 200 yards.
http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-300gr-45-caldeepcurl-soft-point.asp (http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-300gr-45-caldeepcurl-soft-point.asp)
This one for deer easily to 175 yards....
http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-250gr-gold-dot-hp-45-cal.asp (http://www.gamaliel.com/45Caliber451/speer-452-250gr-gold-dot-hp-45-cal.asp)QuoteYou guys keep talking about .45 cal, but do they make these in .50 cal?
If so, I would like to give them a try in my A&H 50 cal. If they dont, Sabotloader, what would you recommend?
They are a 45 cal bullet (.452) and then you will need a sabot to fit your gun. I am pretty sure that I shot MMP HPH-24's in my A&H or Harvester Smooth black sabots will also work. I would use the Harvester 5045LB with either bullet but a lot of folks like the 5045SB (short black)
Hi Sabotloader,
I have always just gone the easy route and used Powerbelts or 300gr Hornady SSt. I am getting more interested in these Speer Golddot's. I see that these are for a 45 "handgun" but you are saying they work for my 50 cal traditions vortek? all i need is the jacket to put on them? sorry for my ignorance. Also i talked to a guy that says the 300gr is to small for elk. I have had Zero problems with 300gr taking down the 4 elk i have shot at. The gentleman that i talked to shoots 348gr powerbelts. Is 300gr being to small your opinion as well? Thanks for any info you can give me.
Post by: Sabotloader on August 18, 2011, 06:58:22 PM
Quote
Hi Sabotloader,
I have always just gone the easy route and used Powerbelts or 300gr Hornady SSt. I am getting more interested in these Speer Golddot's. I see that these are for a 45 "handgun"
The .452-300 grain Deep Curl was designed for the 454 Casual. A very large hunting pistols. I was watching a show awhile back with this guy hunting with a scoped 454 Casual - he took a one shot kill on a really nice bull elk. Cannot remember the range it was nothing spectacular but it was not in his lap either.
Quote
but you are saying they work for my 50 cal traditions vortek? all i need is the jacket to put on them? sorry for my ignorance.
Sure they will, you will need to find the correct size of sabot (jacket) to fit your Vortek. I do not know what that might be as I no nothing about the bore on a Vortek. Both MMP and Harvester build 45050 cal sabots of different thicknesses to get the right loading pressure in many different bores. I use a MMP HPH-24 black sabot.
Quote
Also i talked to a guy that says the 300gr is to small for elk. I have had Zero problems with 300gr taking down the 4 elk i have shot at.
The gentleman that i talked to shoots 348gr powerbelts. Is 300gr being to small your opinion as well? Thanks for any info you can give me.
[/quote]
Well everybody gets own opinion and that really is OK… But if you do your part a well made 300 grain bullet will do the job just fine.
This cow never got a chance to complain to much when this 300 grain Nosler got her…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010001-2.jpg&hash=87e0cb415f23914069fc0c0e0fc16552e9182a91)
She wasn’t the biggest cow in the group but she took up plenty of room in the truck
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2Fmikeselk011.jpg&hash=7f57e32cb0b94f074c77e9c3b95660d8491a2414)
This was the recovered bullet – it was lodged in the leg bone on the opposite side of the entry wound – 180 yards
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FCompositRecov-458-2.jpg&hash=d7743eed1510cba6a236ecc4ca63c2030d7e24c4)
This mid sized bull also caught a Nosler
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FP1010018.jpg&hash=d1c59247e4f2ef289736783400633974a5838ee4)
I have some others but you get the ideal…
Quote
The gentleman that i talked to shoots 348gr powerbelts. Is 300gr being to small your opinion as well? Thanks for any info you can give me.
The gentleman really could be right when it comes to Power Belts or any lead bullets 300 grains could be marginal at the longer ranges especially if you shoot it with a heavy charge to reach those ranges. Please do not take this as a slam of Power Belts… but a Power Belt is really nothing more than an elongated lead ball. With that in mind I would be the first one to suggest to you use a heavy lead projectile. Here in Idaho during our ML season we are required to use a lead conical. I shoot a .503-460 NTMex Bull Shop for that season but for rifle season I am good with a 300 grain bullet, either a premium Nosler, Barnes, or Lehigh like I am using now.
This is the 300 grain bullet I am using now…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehigh300DOA.jpg&hash=745411efe692901bdf43e61ca24d9c314dafcd5b)
And to tell you the truth I would even use this .458-275 grain on an elk to 175 yards without much thought…
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehighLength.jpg&hash=350168c821ceda38f1b52918b9b79660581869f9)
The Speer Deep Curl .452-300 grain bullet is no slouch… it is bonded so it stays together and does have a built in system to control expansion as do the Premium bullets…
Hope this answers some of your questions and does not cause a lot of confusion…
Where are you in WA = probably the west side huh?
Post by: The100Road on August 19, 2011, 08:11:41 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on August 19, 2011, 05:29:51 PM
Yes Sir, westside I am. Thanks for all your info. What is the best way i can go about finding the correct size sabot?
I just do not know anyone with a Vortek, to even ask about sabot size. I know there a few on this forum for sure. You might just post that question and I am sure you will get some responses... Other than that I could mail you a sampler to try????
Post by: WonkyWapiti on August 30, 2011, 08:23:32 PM
Post by: Sabotloader on September 01, 2011, 08:17:04 PM
I use the Spin Jag (Original) on my Range rods...
http://www.spinjag.com/spinjag_original.php (http://www.spinjag.com/spinjag_original.php)
And I use a simple TC Super Jag on the gun rods...
https://secure.tcarms.com/store/super-jag-45-cal-cat-no-9241.html (https://secure.tcarms.com/store/super-jag-45-cal-cat-no-9241.html)
Here is one that is installed on one of the gun rods. I cut the rod length down and add the Super Jag.
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FMuzMittwithband.jpg&hash=5d4b40faea2d7ba9a1c929c952706cd1613b8fe2)
Post by: Karl Blanchard on January 24, 2012, 07:43:39 PM
Post by: hillbilli on January 25, 2012, 10:46:17 PM
Post by: colockumelk on April 09, 2012, 09:09:48 AM
Post by: Sabotloader on April 09, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
Because of your advice I got the Speer Deep Curls in 300grains. Got the Black HPH/24s for the sabots. Wish Nosler still made partitions but couldn't find them anywhere. :dunno:
It would be nice if Nosler was still producing Partitions in the .452 or even the .458 but no such luck...
PM me an address - I'll send you a sample of the replacement that I use...
The 300 grain Gold Dot is a very good bullet - think you will like it...
mike
Post by: Pathfinder101 on April 09, 2012, 04:28:55 PM
Thanks. :tup:
Post by: THunt on April 10, 2012, 11:35:30 AM
If you had to choose one bullet and load for deer and elk using a knight disc extreme 50 cal what would it be?
Thanks
Post by: Sabotloader on April 10, 2012, 04:24:56 PM
SabotloaderAh shoot!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: that really is kinda hard cuz I like to shoot so much stuff.... but if forced to make that choice I think it would really be easy for me to settle on a .458-275 grain Lehigh/Bloodline in the factory sabot, pushed out of the barrel with 120grains of T7. Fr years I hunted deer with a Nosler .451-260 grain partition, well the 275 gr. is even a better bullet and I really would not have a problem shooting an elk with that same bullet, although I do prefer just that much more energy from a 300 grain bloodline, but when you get down to it there really is not that much difference especially in the ranges you might be shooting with open sights.
If you had to choose one bullet and load for deer and elk using a knight disc extreme 50 cal what would it be?
Thanks
This is the 300 grain the 275 is just a bit shorter and a bit faster...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FLehigh300DOA.jpg&hash=745411efe692901bdf43e61ca24d9c314dafcd5b)
I have made the statement several times the 275 is the ultimate all-around bullet for me...
Here is a ballistic sheet...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2FLehigh458-275.jpg&hash=d8e82188ebf5d974de54686481f8a1b046b68cee)
And I even found a comparison that I had made up...
(https://hunting-washington.com/smf/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv130%2Fsabotloader%2FBallistic%2520Sheets%2FLehigh275-300Comp.jpg&hash=c8622f14e22a9cc11405aca321417f477e5f37db)
Post by: bobcat on April 10, 2012, 05:01:30 PM
Do you think that 275 grain bullet would shoot ok out of a 1 in 48 twist barrel?
I'm thinking maybe it would since it's relatively short. :dunno:
Post by: Sabotloader on April 10, 2012, 06:16:22 PM
Sabotloader,
Do you think that 275 grain bullet would shoot ok out of a 1 in 48 twist barrel?
I'm thinking maybe it would since it's relatively short. :dunno:
It seems like a tried from one of my Rengades and it did not work to well... think the 1-48 is just to slow. I have shot 300 grain Hornady's and Noslers very successfully from a 1-48 but you got to push them out pretty hard.
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 02, 2012, 10:46:23 AM
I just bought my 13 year old a Winchester .50 cal (used). He's not a big kid (85 lbs), and I don't want the gun to kick the crap out of him (I will replace the buttpad with a limbsaver). He shoots a lot (his .308, my .270 and my 7mm), but has never shot muzzy, so we're gonna spend the summer getting proficient.
I know a lot of guys don't like the Pyrodex Pellets, but I was thinking about having him shoot them because they will be easier for him to handle (no measuring), load (no spilling), and I have heard that the consistancy is good.
So here are my questions:
1. What do you think of the Pyrodex Pellets. Is this a good choice?
2. What bullet would you suggest (we are going to hunt elk-east side)?
3. What powder load/charge would you suggest?
4. Any other suggestions/tips/hints for "youth" muzzle loading?
Post by: Sabotloader on May 02, 2012, 01:38:01 PM
OK, so I have a question:
I just bought my 13 year old a Winchester .50 cal (used). He's not a big kid (85 lbs), and I don't want the gun to kick the crap out of him (I will replace the buttpad with a limbsaver). He shoots a lot (his .308, my .270 and my 7mm), but has never shot muzzy, so we're gonna spend the summer getting proficient.
I know a lot of guys don't like the Pyrodex Pellets, but I was thinking about having him shoot them because they will be easier for him to handle (no measuring), load (no spilling), and I have heard that the consistancy is good.
So here are my questions:
1. What do you think of the Pyrodex Pellets. Is this a good choice?
I am not a pellet fan period... but a lot of people use them just for the reasons you stated.
Quote
2. What bullet would you suggest (we are going to hunt elk-east side)?
Know that the heavier the bullet the more felt recoil, but... I would suggest a 300 grain Speer Deep Curl with the sabot that fits your bore. If you were to use a 100 grains of pellet powder and keep the range of the shot down to the 100 yard area - with good shot placement everything should go as planned.
Quote
3. What powder load/charge would you suggest?
Myself I would suggest a minimum of 100 grains of powder for elk - but I would use loose powder and I would use a .458-275 grain Bloodline bullet in a .458 sabot - still keeping the range in the 100 yard area. I would also suggest a #11 magnum cap with the capper to mount the cap on the nipple post. I tried musket caps at first because everyone said the were hotter, which is not the case with a #11 magnum caps and with a #11 capper they are more easy to use than musket caps.
Quote
4. Any other suggestions/tips/hints for "youth" muzzle loading?
If he has been shooting a 308 I am not sure that he will notice a whole of difference in shooting a ML. The recoil is a little sharper and faster but not all that much differnent... When he is shooting the ML for target practice use ear plugs... the blas has more effect than the recoil.
Just sharing some thoughts....
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 02, 2012, 01:42:54 PM
[/quote]OK, so I have a question:
I just bought my 13 year old a Winchester .50 cal (used). He's not a big kid (85 lbs), and I don't want the gun to kick the crap out of him (I will replace the buttpad with a limbsaver). He shoots a lot (his .308, my .270 and my 7mm), but has never shot muzzy, so we're gonna spend the summer getting proficient.
I know a lot of guys don't like the Pyrodex Pellets, but I was thinking about having him shoot them because they will be easier for him to handle (no measuring), load (no spilling), and I have heard that the consistancy is good.
So here are my questions:
1. What do you think of the Pyrodex Pellets. Is this a good choice?
I am not a pellet fan period... but a lot of people use them just for the reasons you stated.Quote2. What bullet would you suggest (we are going to hunt elk-east side)?
Know that the heavier the bullet the more felt recoil, but... I would suggest a 300 grain Speer Deep Curl with the sabot that fits your bore. If you were to use a 100 grains of pellet powder and keep the range of the shot down to the 100 yard area - with good shot placement everything should go as planned.Quote3. What powder load/charge would you suggest?
Myself I would suggest a minimum of 100 grains of powder for elk - but I would use loose powder and I would use a .458-275 grain Bloodline bullet in a .458 sabot - still keeping the range in the 100 yard area.
Just sharing some thoughts...
4. Any other suggestions/tips/hints for "youth" muzzle loading?
Thanks sabotloader. Does the pyrodex make that much difference? I see the balistics on the 300 gr speer with 110 grains of 777 only drops 7 inches at 200 yards.
Post by: Sabotloader on May 02, 2012, 01:52:42 PM
OK, so I have a question:
I just bought my 13 year old a Winchester .50 cal (used). He's not a big kid (85 lbs), and I don't want the gun to kick the crap out of him (I will replace the buttpad with a limbsaver). He shoots a lot (his .308, my .270 and my 7mm), but has never shot muzzy, so we're gonna spend the summer getting proficient.
I know a lot of guys don't like the Pyrodex Pellets, but I was thinking about having him shoot them because they will be easier for him to handle (no measuring), load (no spilling), and I have heard that the consistancy is good.
So here are my questions:
1. What do you think of the Pyrodex Pellets. Is this a good choice?
I am not a pellet fan period... but a lot of people use them just for the reasons you stated.Quote2. What bullet would you suggest (we are going to hunt elk-east side)?
Know that the heavier the bullet the more felt recoil, but... I would suggest a 300 grain Speer Deep Curl with the sabot that fits your bore. If you were to use a 100 grains of pellet powder and keep the range of the shot down to the 100 yard area - with good shot placement everything should go as planned.Quote3. What powder load/charge would you suggest?
Myself I would suggest a minimum of 100 grains of powder for elk - but I would use loose powder and I would use a .458-275 grain Bloodline bullet in a .458 sabot - still keeping the range in the 100 yard area.
Just sharing some thoughts...
4. Any other suggestions/tips/hints for "youth" muzzle loading?
Quote
Thanks sabotloader. Does the pyrodex make that much difference? I see the balistics on the 300 gr speer with 110 grains of 777 only drops 7 inches at 200 yards.
Just remember that pellets, weather they be Pyro or T7 are rated to burn just like regular black powder. T7 loose powder is close to 15% stronger than pellets or black powder (Swiss being the exception). So in effect with T7 loose you are shooting 115 grains of black powder or pellets - that does make a difference...
I am shooting 120 grains of T7 loose and actually in a percsussion gun I am shooting 110 grains of T7-3f which is an additional 10% stranger than T7-2f, but with that I also know that I am good for even a bull at 200 yards - provided I do my part in shot location.
Where are you at in washington? I get to the Kennewick area a lot...
Post by: Pathfinder101 on May 02, 2012, 02:03:41 PM