Post by: Rooster1981 on November 01, 2011, 09:31:59 AM
I told my bud that the bull looked legal and I was going to take the shot. I shot as the elk were on the move and the herd stopped and split, the spike stopped running and started to turn back so I shot again all the while thinking I could see the bulls antlers just fine........ The bull went down and we both were very excited. Well as we were headed towards the bull my buddy sat the hunting pack down when I was shooting at the bull which was cam-mo and lost it. I told him just keep looking for the pack and I will go locate the bull.
Well before I could get to the bull some jerk on a quad cut me off and said he checked out my bull and said it was a 1x2 and continued to chew my AZZ. I told him to bugger off and I went to locate the bull. Well before I could get to the bull this guy on the quad had two of his friends run up to my bull and were gutting it. I got to the bull and said what the hell do you think you guys are doing, they replied we thought since its a 1x2 we might get to keep it if we turned you in. I told them to F&%$#@ off and took pics of them gutting the bull.
Well true to be hold the bull had a three inch kicker half way up the right beam that was pearl white compared to his rest of his dark brown antlers. Well these guys decided that they were in bad shape for messing with the bull and decided to run for it. I had to go back and find my lost pack, go to my truck and find cell phone service. Before I could make it a half mile two game wardens were recovering another 1x2 that had been called in which had a fork that was about an 1 1/4 ".
Well I Immediately told the game wardens what I did and what had transpired. the game wardens were very cool about it and told me these things happen and I did the right thing. We were on our way to the bull and the same guys that were harassing me earlyer were on there way down the road and the warden stopped them and they ended up getting finned for two loaded guns on there quads no helmets and one guy didn't have his drivers licence :tup:
I took the wardens up to the bull and they checked it out and told me that when ever you kill an animal and it turns out to be Illegal call it in as soon as possible, gut it and tag it. Every thing rides on what you do right after the kill, I ended up with a misdemeanor fine of $80.00 that will not go on my record only because I never showed any malintent. And I obviously lost my tag for the year. If I had tried to run or lie in any way they would have gave me $2500.00 fine I would have lost my gun and my truck I would have been brought up on charges.
Four of us including the two game wardens drug the bull about a half mile down to a road and loaded up the elk. the elk was sent to the Yakima mission to feed the homeless. The game wardens were very cool and even consoled me and told me that I would be OK and I did every thing right. My bull was the second one to go into there truck and when we were dragging out the spike they got another call for # 3.
Post by: THunt on November 01, 2011, 09:42:32 AM
Post by: 400out on November 01, 2011, 09:46:05 AM
Good for you on doing the honest thing :tup:
Post by: GoldTip on November 01, 2011, 09:47:10 AM
Post by: WAcoyotehunter on November 01, 2011, 09:47:16 AM
Post by: hoffmas56 on November 01, 2011, 10:07:35 AM
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 01, 2011, 10:10:08 AM
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I commend you for taking the legal and ethical course of action, in an extremely tough situation. I find it very difficult to believe that the "true spike" concept will increase the bull to cow ratio, when many similar illegal kills will happen and go unreported.
Yes I agree, the game warden tried to explain to me the purpose of trues spike but was rolling his eye's at the same time. :dunno:
Post by: HUNT on November 01, 2011, 10:13:25 AM
Post by: colockumelk on November 01, 2011, 10:16:42 AM
Post by: bigtex on November 01, 2011, 11:23:57 AM
I took the wardens up to the bull and they checked it out and told me that when ever you kill an animal and it turns out to be Illegal call it in as soon as possible, gut it and tag it. Every thing rides on what you do right after the kill, I ended up with a misdemeanor fine of $80.00 that will not go on my record only because I never showed any malintent. And I obviously lost my tag for the year. If I had tried to run or lie in any way they would have gave me $2500.00 fine I would have lost my gun and my truck I would have been brought up on charges.
Just want to clarify something you said regarding the violations.
Shooting a non-true spike (only one side is a spike) in a true spike area is actually not a misd, but a civil infraction. Now lets say you would have shot a 2X2 in a true spike, antlerless, or spike only area you would be facing gross misd charges and that is where the $2,540 fine comes in which I mentioned in the 1401 rd thread
Post by: 1morebuck on November 01, 2011, 12:29:36 PM
Post by: hoffmas56 on November 01, 2011, 12:56:09 PM
Post by: Rainier10 on November 01, 2011, 01:08:07 PM
Post by: slim9300 on November 01, 2011, 01:11:39 PM
The only other suggestion I have for you is be careful with the comment about the radios.
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 01, 2011, 01:24:38 PM
Shooting a non-true spike (only one side is a spike) in a true spike area is actually not a misd, but a civil infraction. Now lets say you would have shot a 2X2 in a true spike, antlerless, or spike only area you would be facing gross misd charges and that is where the $2,540 fine comes in which I mentioned in the 1401 rd thread
[/quote]
Yes you are correct its a civil infraction, The game warden was very clear though if I hadnt come clean and wasn't honest I would have gotten the 2540.00 ticket.
Post by: colockumelk on November 01, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
I agree, there is definitely an increased risk hunting in a true spike area, and consequently more wasted elk and illegal kills happening. I suggested closing the Colockum to increase B to C ratio, several times in the past, but it is a revenue issue that they don't want to address. Meanwhile I have sacrificed branched bull restrictions and now true spike, for a herd that still suffers from pathetic B to C ratio. Gee, I wonder if certain user groups hunting during the summer months might be the problem??? :bash:
:yeah:
The general population was completely against permit only. People complain about the lack of opportunity and the lack of quality yet are unwilling to do what is necessary to fix the problem. And unfortunately the WDFW listens to the masses that are not informed. No matter what happens unless the WDFW makes the necessary changes to increase escapement we will just be treading water.
Road closures costs alot of money so it will be slow. This is the biggest problem too much access equals not enough escapement especially since the are is somewhat open where a modern rifle has a very large advantage over the elk. Also the Kittitas Valley Rod and Gun Club is 100% against all road closures. Apparantly they don't care about the elk herd there or do not know much about wildlife managment. Yes they hate my guts.
The other idea I floated to the WDFW was to make the Colockum a Muzzle Loader area and take the rifle season away as a cheap and free means of increasing escapement rather than road closures. Or make it a restricted firearms area. This way the animals would stand a fighting chance since the area is so open and people would be restricted on their range and or amout of shots.
But I'm sure the true spike is working out after all think about all the money the WDFW is making off hunters who accidentally shoot a 1x2. :bash: Again "true spike" is entrapment IMHO.
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 01, 2011, 03:21:25 PM
Way to be a sportsman rooster. you did the right thing :tup:. Were you hunting in the rattlesnake area ? Just curious because I might have seen you and the warden.
I was hunting in the Parke creek area out of Kittitas.
Post by: quadrafire on November 01, 2011, 03:29:34 PM
So for all out there that do not agree with the management changes don't hunt the region if you can't comply with the rules. No different than the 4pt whitetail in the NE corner. It is what it is.
Post by: spikehunter on November 01, 2011, 05:09:40 PM
Post by: fremont on November 01, 2011, 05:40:18 PM
Post by: colockumelk on November 01, 2011, 06:04:52 PM
Rules should not be made where the average person cant follow them. True Spike only is far too restrictive. There are too many variable ie angles of tiny points that cant he seen at 300yds.
My true spike was with three other spikes. At 300yds or 400yds across the canyon I thought 3 of them were 100% without a doubt a true spike. But once I got within 50yds I realized only one was a true spike. If I was rifle hunting there was a 75% chance I would have poached a 2x2 or a 1x2 Because one was a 3x1 and the other two werenot legal due to very tiny forks on top.
Would I have been irresponsible? No because with my optics and the distance involved couple with the tiny 1 or 2" forks made them appear to be legal. Physically you could not tell. The current rules entrapped people into poaching.
Post by: Justin7mm on November 01, 2011, 06:17:16 PM
I may be the odd man out here and not congratulate you. But I read this as setting a REALLY bad example for a young hunter (your 16 yr old buddy), if you are the mentor. I am using your intro story for these facts, and if they are not right correct me, but To take a running shot at a bull you THINK is legal at 300 yrds (in a true spike area I might add). I personally find that very poor judgement.
So for all out there that do not agree with the management changes don't hunt the region if you can't comply with the rules. No different than the 4pt whitetail in the NE corner. It is what it is.
I agree with this statement. Though the true spike restriction is the toughest antler restriction to swallow, in my experience any restriction causes problems. Last year we found two 2 point deer shot and left in a 3 point minimum area. I also know of a bigger bull that was shot (raghornish) in the clockum last year. I agree with the permit idea. If we as hunters are messing up this often, and the numbers are so bad they require these type of regulations, make it Permit only.
Post by: Ripper on November 01, 2011, 06:57:23 PM
Post by: CP on November 01, 2011, 07:13:17 PM
Post by: ANDERWAGON on November 01, 2011, 07:35:23 PM
It's cool to hear that the guys on quads got what was coming to them (what comes around goes around).
Post by: 6x6in6 on November 01, 2011, 07:38:32 PM
Not going to get an I commend you for your actions from me. Any form of antler restriction you must positively confirm before you do the deed. 300 yds on the run in the semi wide open of Parke is not what I would consider positive confirmation.
One less bull in the Colock that should have survived the on-slaught.
Post by: remington300mag on November 01, 2011, 07:57:18 PM
Yeah, I guess I'm kinda in the minority here also.You forgot to add........only to be shot in the following years by the Indians! The only true winners when it comes to "True Spike" units, the natives!
Not going to get an I commend you for your actions from me. Any form of antler restriction you must positively confirm before you do the deed. 300 yds on the run in the semi wide open of Parke is not what I would consider positive confirmation.
One less bull in the Colock that should have survived the on-slaught.
Post by: SniperDanWA on November 01, 2011, 09:01:46 PM
Post by: bullchaser on November 02, 2011, 02:48:53 AM
Post by: Elkaholic daWg on November 02, 2011, 05:26:36 AM
Yeah, I guess I'm kinda in the minority here also.You forgot to add........only to be shot in the following years by the Indians! The only true winners when it comes to "True Spike" units, the natives!
Not going to get an I commend you for your actions from me. Any form of antler restriction you must positively confirm before you do the deed. 300 yds on the run in the semi wide open of Parke is not what I would consider positive confirmation.
One less bull in the Colock that should have survived the on-slaught.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 02, 2011, 06:36:58 AM
I may be the odd man out here and not congratulate you. But I read this as setting a REALLY bad example for a young hunter (your 16 yr old buddy), if you are the mentor. I am using your intro story for these facts, and if they are not right correct me, but To take a running shot at a bull you THINK is legal at 300 yrds (in a true spike area I might add). I personally find that very poor judgement.
So for all out there that do not agree with the management changes don't hunt the region if you can't comply with the rules. No different than the 4pt whitetail in the NE corner. It is what it is.
quadrafire you are correct I made pour judgment and I had to face the consequences. I didn't post this thread to get a pat on the back. I posted this thread because so many guys shoot and leave game and it goes to waste. I wanted to share my story so others could learn from my situation and if any one who reads this ends up in the same situation they will hopefully do the same as I did and call it in. There are tons of bulls over there that have small kickers that are just incredibly hard to see until you are right on top of them. I wont make any excuses for what I did, and I know all to well what I went through and It will never happen to me again.
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 07:07:11 AM
The only thing it does is create a trophy unit for Tribal Hunters and Poachers. Not bashing the tribes they didn't make the antler restrictions. Just stating the obvious. The WDFW has completely failed in that unit.
Post by: quadrafire on November 02, 2011, 07:42:42 AM
:tup:I may be the odd man out here and not congratulate you. But I read this as setting a REALLY bad example for a young hunter (your 16 yr old buddy), if you are the mentor. I am using your intro story for these facts, and if they are not right correct me, but To take a running shot at a bull you THINK is legal at 300 yrds (in a true spike area I might add). I personally find that very poor judgement.
So for all out there that do not agree with the management changes don't hunt the region if you can't comply with the rules. No different than the 4pt whitetail in the NE corner. It is what it is.
quadrafire you are correct I made pour judgment and I had to face the consequences. I didn't post this thread to get a pat on the back. I posted this thread because so many guys shoot and leave game and it goes to waste. I wanted to share my story so others could learn from my situation and if any one who reads this ends up in the same situation they will hopefully do the same as I did and call it in. There are tons of bulls over there that have small kickers that are just incredibly hard to see until you are right on top of them. I wont make any excuses for what I did, and I know all to well what I went through and It will never happen to me again.
Post by: MIKEXRAY on November 02, 2011, 09:50:07 AM
Post by: saylean on November 02, 2011, 10:12:29 AM
Good work for fessing up and trying to do the right thing. Poor work for taking the shot. Glad to hear the animal didnt go to waste, glad to hear the quad boys got what they deserved, hopefully you learned to take extra care on confirming your animal before pulling the trigger.
NOTE: I am not perfect by any means, just wanted to chime in.
Post by: brianmtsinc on November 02, 2011, 10:49:03 AM
In the end, I say "good on you" for owning up and not letting it lay there.
My hunting partner made a great choice a year or two ago to pass on a spike that was in front of a trail camera. I'm afraid that had I been the one to to check the camera that afternoon, I might have shot - I can't honestly say. :dunno: Hopefully I can get him to post the pic.
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 12:27:25 PM
So you can do everything right in your power to ensure that you are shooting a legal animal but then when you walk up to it have it turn out it wasn't. IF I had been rifle hunting I would have had a 2/3 chance of becoming a POACHER. That's why its ENTRAPMENT.
Post by: backyard bucks on November 02, 2011, 12:38:21 PM
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 01:02:53 PM
Post by: AKBowman on November 02, 2011, 02:59:48 PM
I may be the odd man out here and not congratulate you. But I read this as setting a REALLY bad example for a young hunter (your 16 yr old buddy), if you are the mentor. I am using your intro story for these facts, and if they are not right correct me, but To take a running shot at a bull you THINK is legal at 300 yrds (in a true spike area I might add). I personally find that very poor judgement.
So for all out there that do not agree with the management changes don't hunt the region if you can't comply with the rules. No different than the 4pt whitetail in the NE corner. It is what it is.
But its not we as "hunters" that are screwing up the B to C ratio which is the whole reason for WDFW switching to True Spike it is the unregulated killing of elk during the summer and early fall months by the Natives. THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE. Nothing will get better no matter what happens until this is addressed. Think about it, the Native season is approximately 90 days and the WDFW season is one week. Which group do you think enacts a bigger toll?
I agree with this statement. Though the true spike restriction is the toughest antler restriction to swallow, in my experience any restriction causes problems. Last year we found two 2 point deer shot and left in a 3 point minimum area. I also know of a bigger bull that was shot (raghornish) in the clockum last year. I agree with the permit idea. If we as hunters are messing up this often, and the numbers are so bad they require these type of regulations, make it Permit only.
Post by: AKBowman on November 02, 2011, 03:01:56 PM
But its not we as "hunters" that are screwing up the B to C ratio which is the whole reason for WDFW switching to True Spike it is the unregulated killing of elk during the summer and early fall months by the Natives. THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE. Nothing will get better no matter what happens until this is addressed. Think about it, the Native season is approximately 90 days and the WDFW season is one week. Which group do you think enacts a bigger toll?
Post by: Glockster on November 02, 2011, 03:06:20 PM
Hats off to you sir.
Post by: MIKEXRAY on November 02, 2011, 03:07:22 PM
Post by: igotbigbulls on November 02, 2011, 03:19:26 PM
« on: Today at 03:01:56 PM » Insert Quote
Meant to post:
But its not we as "hunters" that are screwing up the B to C ratio which is the whole reason for WDFW switching to True Spike it is the unregulated killing of elk during the summer and early fall months by the Natives. THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE. Nothing will get better no matter what happens until this is addressed. Think about it, the Native season is approximately 90 days and the WDFW season is one week. Which group do you think enacts a bigger toll?
answer-numbers wise. you
Post by: Ddog73 on November 02, 2011, 03:59:04 PM
Meant to post:
But its not we as "hunters" that are screwing up the B to C ratio which is the whole reason for WDFW switching to True Spike it is the unregulated killing of elk during the summer and early fall months by the Natives. THAT IS THE ISSUE HERE. Nothing will get better no matter what happens until this is addressed. Think about it, the Native season is approximately 90 days and the WDFW season is one week. Which group do you think enacts a bigger toll?
How did all the natives unregulated killing of all the bulls make this hunter shoot what he thought was a true spike but ended up having a little point on one of the spikes??
Post by: fishingnut71 on November 02, 2011, 06:42:28 PM
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 06:53:26 PM
Now for the other contributor. Yes we all share the guilt both tribal and American. If anyone thinks different you are naive. If you think its all the Yakamas fault your wrong. If you think the Yakamas don't have an effect you're wrong.
While the general season gets more restrictive every year and we lose more and more branch bull permits the b to c ratio still gets worse. Why? Well the low spike escapement is the main contributor yes but.... The Yakamas kill more and more branch bulls a year. Why? Just like any good hunting spot word gets around and more people show up. Since the Yakamas refuse to cooperate and help out in anyway with managemnt it is impossible to know exqctly how many bulls they kill. so the only way the wdfw can keep track for management purposes, is by what the game wardens see. From this on average 40 bulls come out of the Colockum by tribal hunters. Amazingly enough cows are rarely taken by Yakamas. One Yakama in particular harvested more branch bulls by himself than all permit hunters combined. I have the pics to prove it. He took them all to tje sportsmams show.
So while the general season is 3/4 the problem tje tipping point for the b to c ratio is tribal harvest. I don't see how the general season can get any more restrictive. So I would like to see it go permit only. But not if the Yakamas don't step up to the plate and restrict tjeir end of the harvest. Because if tjey dont were just treading water. It will take both sides to make it work.
Post by: 724wd on November 02, 2011, 07:05:27 PM
That does not make any sense what so ever. You are actually arguing and making the point that people should not take 300 yard shots because they definitely can not identify their target at that range. Obviously they need to sneak closer as you did with your bow, make the proper identity & then take the shot. To call it entrapment or unconstitutional is a little far fetched & a stretch. No matter what, people should know their target. Period. That may mean not taking 300 yard shots, running shots or any shot where people have any doubt. I don't see your argument in the slightest. Mike
:yeah:
Post by: colockumelk on November 02, 2011, 07:28:46 PM
Of course you shoot it. You shoot it. Boom it dies. You walk over to it and it has a 1" kicker. BAM your a poacher. Your fault? No. It's called entrapment because it is too easy for an average person to unknowingly commit a crime. We talked about case after case for a week in legal studies where laws were overturned because of entrapment. Don't believe me do your own research. Burdon of proof is on you.
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 03, 2011, 08:41:16 AM
You were probably in the clockum. Every coasty in wa is up there. you were just MANY up there that got a ticket for not being 100% sure. Locals dont do that!
Well sir I am not a coasty, I grew up on a cattle ranch less than a mile from the spot where I shot that elk. I do live on the west side now but have spent the majority of my life in Kittitas. I have hunted in unit 329 my entire life. from the time I could walk my dad took me into those hills. I know every hill, draw, finger, ridge, slope, and canyon over there that is on public land. I have been a very succesful hunter in 329 and this is and will be the only mistake I ever make as a sportsman.
Post by: 270Shooter on November 03, 2011, 08:47:52 AM
Post by: Rooster1981 on November 03, 2011, 09:34:03 AM
OK I will chime in on the true spike debate,
Last year In three days of hunting I saw 300+ elk with 45+ bulls. Over twenty of those bulls were 1x2 & 2x2. I saw only 4 true spikes and I shot the first one I saw.
This year I saw 200+ elk in three days and only saw 8 bulls. Three 1x2 One 2x2 and a couple rag heads. I thought from 2010 that the true spike was working but now after this year with out seeing any of those bulls surviving in the same herds that hang out in Parke creek year to year I believe that the native hunting is out of control. Something isn't adding up. I know herds move and differant elk come and go, but really I fully expected to see dozens of satlite bulls not 2.
The herds are going backwards again. I have seen this several times in the last 20 years. The herds will build up and look great and then something will happen like the winter of 96 that nearly wiped out the elk in 329. It took three years to see good numbers again. Now the Numbers are dropping again and the only thing I can think of is Unregulated hunting, or are that many bulls being shot and left. I'm not sure but I do believe that the entire unit needs to be shut down for five years, no questions asked and let the elk breath again. That will stop the natives and in five year's time the herds would be built up to a standard that spike hunting wouldn't be necessary anymore.
Post by: colockumelk on November 03, 2011, 09:45:43 AM
Again here is the low down and dirty why that elk herd is failing.
It is not tje natives which is the main contributor to the bull to cow ratio. Here is the basic sum. Yakima elk here is migratory. most stay high until snow hits. Most people dont hunt high therefore high escapement of spikes due to staying high in the thick stuff far from roads. The Colockum elk herd is not migratory and stays low all year long. In the open near roads so they are very easy for rifle hunters to get compared to the Yakima herd. The Yakima herd has a 30-40% spike recruitment rate. The Colockum has a 15-20%. This is recruitment number is not enough to offset the amount of branch bulls that the tribal hunters and poachers get. Licensed hunters might kill 6 branch bulls a year.
Now for the other contributor. Yes we all share the guilt both tribal and American. If anyone thinks different you are naive. If you think its all the Yakamas fault your wrong. If you think the Yakamas don't have an effect you're wrong.
While the general season gets more restrictive every year and we lose more and more branch bull permits the b to c ratio still gets worse. Why? Well the low spike escapement is the main contributor yes but.... The Yakamas kill more and more branch bulls a year. Why? Just like any good hunting spot word gets around and more people show up. Since the Yakamas refuse to cooperate and help out in anyway with managemnt it is impossible to know exqctly how many bulls they kill. so the only way the wdfw can keep track for management purposes, is by what the game wardens see. From this on average 40 bulls come out of the Colockum by tribal hunters. Amazingly enough cows are rarely taken by Yakamas. One Yakama in particular harvested more branch bulls by himself than all permit hunters combined. I have the pics to prove it. He took them all to tje sportsmams show.
So while the general season is 3/4 the problem tje tipping point for the b to c ratio is tribal harvest. I don't see how the general season can get any more restrictive. So I would like to see it go permit only. But not if the Yakamas don't step up to the plate and restrict tjeir end of the harvest. Because if tjey dont were just treading water. It will take both sides to make it work.
Post by: WSU on November 03, 2011, 02:41:47 PM
Okay real simple for you. You see an elk. With your 10x binos you can tell its a spike. You glass very hard for many minutes to make sure its a true spike. You can't see anything other than two bare spikes. It is 100% without a doubt a true spike. Do you shoot it. It's 100yds away and starting to follow the herd away from you. Shoot yes or no?
Of course you shoot it. You shoot it. Boom it dies. You walk over to it and it has a 1" kicker. BAM your a poacher. Your fault? No. It's called entrapment because it is too easy for an average person to unknowingly commit a crime. We talked about case after case for a week in legal studies where laws were overturned because of entrapment. Don't believe me do your own research. Burdon of proof is on you.
That is not entrapment. I don't care if you studied law for a week, it ain't entrapment. From Wikipedia: in criminal law, entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.
There is no conduct by a government agent inducing anyone to fail to count the correct number of points. True spike is no different than 2 point, 3 point, or 4 point minimum. If you don't want to break the law, be damn sure it is legal shoot what you are planning to shoot. It's that simple. Animals will get away (I personally have had a lot of legal bucks get away because I couldn't be 100% sure they were legal until it was too late) because you can't just bang away at moving elk 300 yards away. Bummer, but not entrapment.
I will say the OP did the right thing by owning up to the mistake. Most people would have split.
Post by: colockumelk on November 03, 2011, 06:12:07 PM
And 3pt min is not tje same as true spike. At 100 yds if you can't see that 1" sticker on that forkhorn because you think he's not legal. But on a true spike if after looking carefully you miss that 1" sticker you unknowingly committed a crime. And please WSU tell me just how close should you get before your 100% sure its legal. 300yds, 100yds 50yds. I bet your gonna say as close as it takes. Well again if you can't make out a point that you dont know exists how close is close enough. When your 100% sure its legal at a certain distance why move closer?
People need to do a better job of identifying their Target. I harp on that constantly. I'm not saying its all the wdfw fault. But tjey have created a reg that makes it far to easy to make a mistake. Why else do you think the gamies are just slapping people on the wrist. :dunno:
Post by: remington300mag on November 03, 2011, 06:22:47 PM
Post by: Guy on November 03, 2011, 06:44:49 PM
Permit only. Or close the whole area for a few years. Or no modern firearm season at all.
Something has to be done to limit hunter numbers and help the herd. At this point it's simply ridiculous.
Post by: WSU on November 04, 2011, 10:57:08 AM
Yeah because Wikipedia is a valid source often used to cite legal precedance in the court room. Entrapment can also come from a law whose wording or structure causes ordinary citizens to commit crimes they ordinarily would not commit. Try Lexus-Nexus next time.
And 3pt min is not tje same as true spike. At 100 yds if you can't see that 1" sticker on that forkhorn because you think he's not legal. But on a true spike if after looking carefully you miss that 1" sticker you unknowingly committed a crime. And please WSU tell me just how close should you get before your 100% sure its legal. 300yds, 100yds 50yds. I bet your gonna say as close as it takes. Well again if you can't make out a point that you dont know exists how close is close enough. When your 100% sure its legal at a certain distance why move closer?
People need to do a better job of identifying their Target. I harp on that constantly. I'm not saying its all the wdfw fault. But tjey have created a reg that makes it far to easy to make a mistake. Why else do you think the gamies are just slapping people on the wrist. :dunno:
Do you care to provide a citation? So far the only citation I've seen is your week of studying law. And, as an attorney, I am well aware that wikipedia is not often used to define a legal term. It does, however, give an accurate definition of entrapment (complete with citations if you care to read it). Please provide a Lexis (or any) citation to indicate otherwise. If the only citation you are going to provide is chest thumping and weeks spent studying law, I win.
I also realize there is a distinction between 3 point min. regs and true spike. The biggest distinction is obviously verifying that a point is not there, which is clearly tougher. I agree that the law will lead to situations where people do not do a good enough job making sure their target is legal before killing it. That may very well make it a bad regulation. To me, whether the regulation is bad depends on how many additional spikes survive hunting season (the intent of the regulation). And, it sounds like law enforcement is doing the right thing by realizing that the regulation can easily lead to killing illegal animals. Sounds like the OP got a slap on the wrist for doing the right thing and owning up to an honest mistake. In this case, it sounds like the legal system is working almost perfectly. As the OP stated, he realizes he should have checked more thoroughly and accepts the civil infraction he was given. I say good for him and good for the officers for using their discretion correctly.
Post by: Sneaky on November 04, 2011, 11:02:36 AM
Good on the hunter for owning up, good on the wardens for acknowledging the fact that the hunter tried to make it right. I flat won't hunt in a true spike unit for this exact reason :twocents:
Post by: colockumelk on November 04, 2011, 12:33:35 PM
Okay since you are a lawyer and I can't seem to recall the wording of it. What is it called when a law is re-written or stricken due to the fact that its wording or creation causes ordinary citizens to break the law unintentionally? I know its called something because we talked about it for a whole week. Drove me crazy I felt like one day was sufficient.
Post by: Woodchuck on November 04, 2011, 12:36:45 PM
Post by: SniperDanWA on November 04, 2011, 12:40:48 PM
I think the technical term is "stupid lawmaker with no common sense laws" :dunno:
I think it is the inmates are running the asylum.
Post by: Woodchuck on November 04, 2011, 12:54:55 PM
Post by: WSU on November 04, 2011, 01:52:21 PM
WSU obviously as a lawyer you win this one. The only internet I currently have is on my phone. So it is very difficult for me to look stuff up (takes forever) and even toughter to cut and paste stuff. Maybe the word entrapment was a poor choice of words. I took that class in 2009 and since then I've had a whole degree worth of stuff crammed into my head in a year. So I've forgotten som things.
Okay since you are a lawyer and I can't seem to recall the wording of it. What is it called when a law is re-written or stricken due to the fact that its wording or creation causes ordinary citizens to break the law unintentionally? I know its called something because we talked about it for a whole week. Drove me crazy I felt like one day was sufficient.
I'm not sure exactly what doctrine you are referring to. There is the doctrine of unconstitutional vagueness. It means that laws can be found unconstitutional if an ordinary person would not know what is prohibited by the law. That is not exactly the case with the true spike restrictions, although I don't think the true spike restriction should be struck down on any constitutional ground (perhaps it is bad policy but that isn't something for the courts to decide). A classic example of unconstitutional vagueness is a law prohibiting sodomy. Such laws have been struck down because the ordinary citizen wouldn't know exactly what sexual acts are outlawed (oral sex, anal sex, etc.). The true spike law is not vague, however. It may be difficult to to follow, but it is not vague.
Post by: WSU on November 04, 2011, 01:53:04 PM
I think the technical term is "stupid lawmaker with no common sense laws" :dunno:
That applies to a lot more laws than WDFW's true spike regulation!
Post by: colockumelk on November 04, 2011, 03:51:15 PM
Personally I've said it many times if tje herd is that bad off then it should be permit only.
Post by: jeepguy on November 04, 2011, 07:30:02 PM
Post by: cagifford on November 04, 2011, 11:01:09 PM
He could have seen than animal at 100 yards with 24 power binos and still convinced himself it was a true spike. Because he seems to be a stand up guy I almost garentee he will pass on animals in the future that are legal because this experience will change his perception of future situations.