My not true spike

[fishingnut71]

You were probably in the clockum. Every coasty in wa is up there. you were just MANY up there that got a ticket for not being 100% sure. Locals dont do that!

[colockumelk]

It is not tje natives which is the main contributor to the bull to cow ratio. Here is the basic sum. Yakima elk here is migratory. most stay high until snow hits. Most people dont hunt high therefore high escapement of spikes due to staying high in the thick stuff far from roads. The Colockum elk herd is not migratory and stays low all year long. In the open near roads so they are very easy for rifle hunters to get compared to the Yakima herd. The Yakima herd has a 30-40% spike recruitment rate. The Colockum has a 15-20%. This is recruitment number is not enough to offset the amount of branch bulls that the tribal hunters and poachers get. Licensed hunters might kill 6 branch bulls a year.

Now for the other contributor. Yes we all share the guilt both tribal and American. If anyone thinks different you are naive. If you think its all the Yakamas fault your wrong. If you think the Yakamas don't have an effect you're wrong.

While the general season gets more restrictive every year and we lose more and more branch bull permits the b to c ratio still gets worse. Why? Well the low spike escapement is the main contributor yes but.... The Yakamas kill more and more branch bulls a year. Why? Just like any good hunting spot word gets around and more people show up. Since the Yakamas refuse to cooperate and help out in anyway with managemnt it is impossible to know exqctly how many bulls they kill.  so the only way the wdfw can keep track for management purposes, is by what the game wardens see. From this on average 40 bulls come out of the Colockum by tribal hunters. Amazingly enough cows are rarely taken by Yakamas.  One Yakama in particular harvested more branch bulls by himself than all permit hunters combined. I have the pics to prove it. He took them all to tje sportsmams show.

So while the general season is 3/4 the problem tje tipping point for the b to c ratio is tribal harvest. I don't see how the general season can get any more restrictive. So I would like to see it go permit only. But not if the Yakamas don't step up to the plate and restrict tjeir end of the harvest. Because if tjey dont were just treading water. It will take both sides to make it work.

[724wd]

That does not make any sense what so ever.  You are actually arguing and making the point that people should not take 300 yard shots because they definitely can not identify their  target at that range.  Obviously they need to sneak closer as you did with your bow, make the proper identity & then take the shot.  To call it entrapment or unconstitutional is a little far fetched & a stretch. No matter what,  people should know their target. Period. That may mean not taking 300 yard shots, running shots or any shot where people have any doubt. I don't see your argument in the slightest.  Mike

 

[colockumelk]

Okay real simple for you. You see an elk. With your 10x binos you can tell its a spike. You glass very hard for many minutes to make sure its a true spike. You can't see anything other than two bare spikes. It is 100% without a doubt a true spike. Do you shoot it. It's 100yds away and starting to follow the herd away from you. Shoot yes or no? 

Of course you shoot it. You shoot it. Boom it dies. You walk over to it and it has a 1" kicker. BAM your a poacher. Your fault? No. It's called entrapment because it is too easy for an average person to unknowingly commit a crime. We talked about case after case for a week in legal studies where laws were overturned because of entrapment. Don't believe me do your own research. Burdon of proof is on you.

[Rooster1981]

You were probably in the clockum. Every coasty in wa is up there. you were just MANY up there that got a ticket for not being 100% sure. Locals dont do that!

Well sir I am not a coasty, I grew up on a cattle ranch less than a mile from the spot  where I shot that elk. I do live on the west side now but have spent the majority of my life in Kittitas. I have hunted in unit 329 my entire life. from the time I could walk my dad took me into those hills. I know every hill, draw, finger, ridge, slope, and canyon over there that is on public land. I have been a very succesful hunter in 329 and this is and will be the only mistake I ever make as a sportsman.

[270Shooter]

Go permit only, thats all i got.

[Rooster1981]

OK I will chime in on the true spike debate,
Last year In three days of hunting I saw 300+ elk with 45+ bulls. Over twenty of those bulls were 1x2 & 2x2. I saw only 4 true spikes and I shot the first one I saw.

This year I saw 200+ elk in three days and only saw 8 bulls. Three 1x2 One 2x2 and a couple rag heads. I thought from 2010 that the true spike was working but  now after this year with out seeing any of those bulls surviving in the same herds that hang out in Parke creek year to year I believe that the native hunting is out of control. Something isn't adding up. I know herds move and differant elk come and go, but really I fully expected to see dozens of satlite bulls not 2.

 The herds are going backwards again. I have seen this several times in the last 20 years. The herds will build up and look great and then something will happen like the winter of 96 that nearly wiped out the elk in 329. It took three years to see good numbers again. Now the Numbers are dropping again and the only thing I can think of is Unregulated hunting, or are that many bulls being shot and left. I'm not sure but I do believe that the entire unit needs to be shut down for five years, no questions asked and let the elk breath again. That will stop the natives and in five year's time the herds would be built up to a standard that spike hunting wouldn't be necessary anymore.

[colockumelk]

Rooster your proposed 5 year breather would not accomplish anything long term.  Because within 5 years of hunting it again we would be back where we started.  What needs to happen is to fix the reason why you see such low recruitment amongst yearling bulls and why it is too easy for poachers and tribal hunters to kill the big bulls.  Like I've said earlier either close off all but the main roads.  Or make it a restricted firearm area so that the benefits of a modern rifle and its range coupled with the open terrain doesn't reak havoc on the elk. 

Again here is the low down and dirty why that elk herd is failing. 

It is not tje natives which is the main contributor to the bull to cow ratio. Here is the basic sum. Yakima elk here is migratory. most stay high until snow hits. Most people dont hunt high therefore high escapement of spikes due to staying high in the thick stuff far from roads. The Colockum elk herd is not migratory and stays low all year long. In the open near roads so they are very easy for rifle hunters to get compared to the Yakima herd. The Yakima herd has a 30-40% spike recruitment rate. The Colockum has a 15-20%. This is recruitment number is not enough to offset the amount of branch bulls that the tribal hunters and poachers get. Licensed hunters might kill 6 branch bulls a year.

Now for the other contributor. Yes we all share the guilt both tribal and American. If anyone thinks different you are naive. If you think its all the Yakamas fault your wrong. If you think the Yakamas don't have an effect you're wrong.

While the general season gets more restrictive every year and we lose more and more branch bull permits the b to c ratio still gets worse. Why? Well the low spike escapement is the main contributor yes but.... The Yakamas kill more and more branch bulls a year. Why? Just like any good hunting spot word gets around and more people show up. Since the Yakamas refuse to cooperate and help out in anyway with managemnt it is impossible to know exqctly how many bulls they kill.  so the only way the wdfw can keep track for management purposes, is by what the game wardens see. From this on average 40 bulls come out of the Colockum by tribal hunters. Amazingly enough cows are rarely taken by Yakamas.  One Yakama in particular harvested more branch bulls by himself than all permit hunters combined. I have the pics to prove it. He took them all to tje sportsmams show.

So while the general season is 3/4 the problem tje tipping point for the b to c ratio is tribal harvest. I don't see how the general season can get any more restrictive. So I would like to see it go permit only. But not if the Yakamas don't step up to the plate and restrict tjeir end of the harvest. Because if tjey dont were just treading water. It will take both sides to make it work.

[WSU]

Okay real simple for you. You see an elk. With your 10x binos you can tell its a spike. You glass very hard for many minutes to make sure its a true spike. You can't see anything other than two bare spikes. It is 100% without a doubt a true spike. Do you shoot it. It's 100yds away and starting to follow the herd away from you. Shoot yes or no? 

Of course you shoot it. You shoot it. Boom it dies. You walk over to it and it has a 1" kicker. BAM your a poacher. Your fault? No. It's called entrapment because it is too easy for an average person to unknowingly commit a crime. We talked about case after case for a week in legal studies where laws were overturned because of entrapment. Don't believe me do your own research. Burdon of proof is on you.

That is not entrapment.  I don't care if you studied law for a week, it ain't entrapment.  From Wikipedia: in criminal law, entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit. 

There is no conduct by a government agent inducing anyone to fail to count the correct number of points.  True spike is no different than 2 point, 3 point, or 4 point minimum.  If you don't want to break the law, be damn sure it is legal shoot what you are planning to shoot.  It's that simple.  Animals will get away (I personally have had a lot of legal bucks get away because I couldn't be 100% sure they were legal until it was too late) because you can't just bang away at moving elk 300 yards away.  Bummer, but not entrapment.

I will say the OP did the right thing by owning up to the mistake.  Most people would have split. 

[colockumelk]

Yeah because Wikipedia is a valid source often used to cite legal precedance in the court room. Entrapment can also come from a law whose wording or structure causes ordinary citizens to commit crimes they ordinarily would not commit.  Try Lexus-Nexus next time.

And 3pt min is not tje same as true spike. At 100 yds if you can't see that 1" sticker on that forkhorn because you think he's not legal. But on a true spike if after looking carefully you miss that 1" sticker you unknowingly committed a crime. And please WSU tell me just how close should you get before your 100% sure its legal. 300yds, 100yds 50yds.  I bet your gonna say as close as it takes. Well again if you can't make out a point that you dont know exists how close is close enough. When your 100% sure its legal at a certain distance why move closer?

People need to do a better job of identifying their Target. I harp on that constantly. I'm not saying its all the wdfw fault. But tjey have created a reg that makes it far to easy to make a mistake. Why else do you think the gamies are just slapping people on the wrist. 

[remington300mag]

  EXACTLY!! Trying to compare 3 point min. and true spike restrictions is a far reach. In my book it is much easier to see the 3rd point than it is to try and notice the "Colockum Split".... Also, in a 2pt. or 3pt. minimum unit if you cant make out that second or third point at lets say 200 yards.....the animal lives. In a True spike Unit, if you some how overlook a 1 inch bur......It dies. So just saying they are not comparable.

[Guy]

I quit hunting there long ago. Too many yahoos. Then the spike elk rule. Then true spike. For me, chasing the half-dozen spikes in the whole herd, simply isn't worthwhile.

Permit only. Or close the whole area for a few years. Or no modern firearm season at all.

Something has to be done to limit hunter numbers and help the herd. At this point it's simply ridiculous.

[WSU]

Yeah because Wikipedia is a valid source often used to cite legal precedance in the court room. Entrapment can also come from a law whose wording or structure causes ordinary citizens to commit crimes they ordinarily would not commit.  Try Lexus-Nexus next time.

And 3pt min is not tje same as true spike. At 100 yds if you can't see that 1" sticker on that forkhorn because you think he's not legal. But on a true spike if after looking carefully you miss that 1" sticker you unknowingly committed a crime. And please WSU tell me just how close should you get before your 100% sure its legal. 300yds, 100yds 50yds.  I bet your gonna say as close as it takes. Well again if you can't make out a point that you dont know exists how close is close enough. When your 100% sure its legal at a certain distance why move closer?

People need to do a better job of identifying their Target. I harp on that constantly. I'm not saying its all the wdfw fault. But tjey have created a reg that makes it far to easy to make a mistake. Why else do you think the gamies are just slapping people on the wrist. 

Do you care to provide a citation?  So far the only citation I've seen is your week of studying law.  And, as an attorney, I am well aware that wikipedia is not often used to define a legal term.  It does, however, give an accurate definition of entrapment (complete with citations if you care to read it).  Please provide a Lexis (or any) citation to indicate otherwise.  If the only citation you are going to provide is chest thumping and weeks spent studying law, I win. 

I also realize there is a distinction between 3 point min. regs and true spike.  The biggest distinction is obviously verifying that a point is not there, which is clearly tougher.  I agree that the law will lead to situations where people do not do a good enough job making sure their target is legal before killing it.  That may very well make it a bad regulation.  To me, whether the regulation is bad depends on how many additional spikes survive hunting season (the intent of the regulation).  And, it sounds like law enforcement is doing the right thing by realizing that the regulation can easily lead to killing illegal animals.  Sounds like the OP got a slap on the wrist for doing the right thing and owning up to an honest mistake.  In this case, it sounds like the legal system is working almost perfectly.  As the OP stated, he realizes he should have checked more thoroughly and accepts the civil infraction he was given.  I say good for him and good for the officers for using their discretion correctly. 

[Sneaky]

 


Good on the hunter for owning up, good on the wardens for acknowledging the fact that the hunter tried to make it right. I flat won't hunt in a true spike unit for this exact reason 

[colockumelk]

WSU obviously as a lawyer you win this one.  The only internet I currently have is on my phone.  So it is very difficult for me to look stuff up (takes forever) and even toughter to cut and paste stuff.  Maybe the word entrapment was a poor choice of words.  I took that class in 2009 and since then I've had a whole degree worth of stuff crammed into my head in a year.  So I've forgotten som things. 

Okay since you are a lawyer and I can't seem to recall the wording of it.  What is it called when a law is re-written or stricken due to the fact that its wording or creation causes ordinary citizens to break the law unintentionally?  I know its called something because we talked about it for a whole week.  Drove me crazy I felt like one day was sufficient.