Hunting Washington Forum

Big Game Hunting => Elk Hunting => Topic started by: Goosegos on November 28, 2021, 05:21:26 PM

Title: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Goosegos on November 28, 2021, 05:21:26 PM
I hunt late Umtanum archery elk.  We keep getting people Driving the not authorized roads.  I get they can hunt how the natives have their own hunts, but how is it they can drive the wildlife dept authorized only roads? We walk in and when asked they said look at my liscense plate, I am tribal and can do whatever I want.  Best of all they shooting rifles while we archery.   Any knowledge thoughts or prior dept response?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: MADMAX on November 28, 2021, 05:40:27 PM
Pull up a chair
This should be good
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 28, 2021, 06:02:36 PM
I don't know about there but in the Nooksack the Indians can hunt with rifles, 24/7 during bow and muzzy seasons.  Yes spot lighting is legal for them is what I'm told. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: huntnfmly on November 28, 2021, 06:31:48 PM
Here we go
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Jingles on November 28, 2021, 06:42:46 PM
I thought several years ago a judge ruled yes they can have access to traditional hunting grounds but they were to use traditional transportation (horses) to access and use traditional hunting methods (bow and arrow)?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: bigdub257 on November 28, 2021, 06:45:45 PM
I think we should start a "Go Fund Me" to pay them bounties for shooting predators that we can't.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Humptulips on November 28, 2021, 06:51:47 PM
I know they are assured access. I don't think "access" has ever been defined as to mode of transport. If access was restricted any violations would be enforced by tribal authorities. Need I say more.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 28, 2021, 06:52:54 PM
They can go anywhere they want even hunt the Clockum elk reserve because and don't forget it is there right just ask them
 :fire.: :pee:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: jrebel on November 28, 2021, 06:54:16 PM
Can they hunt cougars with dogs???  We may need help if we want to keep our ungulate herds intact. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Taco280AI on November 28, 2021, 07:06:26 PM
Are they killing any wolves? If so, how many? If not, why not???
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2021, 07:07:14 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 28, 2021, 07:08:41 PM
I don't know about there but in the Nooksack the Indians can hunt with rifles, 24/7 during bow and muzzy seasons.  Yes spot lighting is legal for them is what I'm told.
Wrong!
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Boss .300 winmag on November 28, 2021, 07:09:41 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves

I bet cougar jerky would be good.🤔
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 28, 2021, 07:11:19 PM
I know they are assured access. I don't think "access" has ever been defined as to mode of transport. If access was restricted any violations would be enforced by tribal authorities. Need I say more.
Please do say more.  You seem to be an expert.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 28, 2021, 07:12:24 PM
 they hunt up here in Whatcom county with dogs for bears I imagine they can hunt cougar also remember this is Wash.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: bigdub257 on November 28, 2021, 07:25:56 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves
Unless they are paid a bounty.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: jrebel on November 28, 2021, 07:29:27 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves
Unless they are paid a bounty.

Would it be legal to pay a bounty? 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: jeffro on November 28, 2021, 07:37:57 PM
Poachers be poaching.
Nuff said
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: WapitiTalk1 on November 28, 2021, 08:20:45 PM
Yes, they can. Donít think about it too much, itíll turn you into a bitter old fartÖ wait, ya.. a Píed off old fart  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 28, 2021, 08:23:47 PM
Poachers be poaching.
Nuff said
:dunno:
You looking in a mirror?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 28, 2021, 08:28:02 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves
I would love,  absolutely love to compare roi with you.  Then maybe you wouldn't pop off with ignorant statements like this.  I don't think you have a clue what some tribes commit to conservation in this state.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idaho guy on November 28, 2021, 08:40:17 PM
I think we should start a "Go Fund Me" to pay them bounties for shooting predators that we can't.  :dunno:
 

This is the answer start paying them to run dogs on cougars and bears. Pay natives to kill wolves. Just make it a reimbursement like fwiw does in Idaho and Montana. Itís the answer and it will totally screw the liberal greenies up. They wonít say a word for fear of being politically incorrect. It will be awesome! someone needs to make it happen I will donate
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: hunter399 on November 28, 2021, 09:02:27 PM
Open and unclaimed land is where they can hunt.
Basicly all Government land .
Private property as long as you have posted or fenced it ,they can't hunt it without permission.
Open and unclaimed land is where they can hunt.
There is no unclaimed land ,so open would mean any state land,WDFW land,national forest,BLM, any government or stateland is open for native hunting.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Stein on November 28, 2021, 09:04:39 PM
I think we should start a "Go Fund Me" to pay them bounties for shooting predators that we can't.  :dunno:
 

This is the answer start paying them to run dogs on cougars and bears. Pay natives to kill wolves. Just make it a reimbursement like fwiw does in Idaho and Montana. Itís the answer and it will totally screw the liberal greenies up. They wonít say a word for fear of being politically incorrect. It will be awesome! someone needs to make it happen I will donate

Add seals to the list and I'm in like Flynn.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 28, 2021, 09:17:13 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves
I would love,  absolutely love to compare roi with you.  Then maybe you wouldn't pop off with ignorant statements like this.  I don't think you have a clue what some tribes commit to conservation in this state.
You got to be kidding they net the rivers to the point where there's hardly any fish left to finish spawning, last week they were netting chums in the Noocksack throwing the bucks over board and after they cut the eggs out of the hens they toss them over also and then they are all whiny and crying because there are no fish. They are doing to elk and deer what they have done to the fish runs shoot everything year round don't believe me go check out some of their facebook sites conservations hell they don't know what the *censored* that is!

Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 28, 2021, 09:24:13 PM
No $$ in cougar or wolves
I would love,  absolutely love to compare roi with you.  Then maybe you wouldn't pop off with ignorant statements like this.  I don't think you have a clue what some tribes commit to conservation in this state.
You got to be kidding they net the rivers to the point where there's hardly any fish left to finish spawning, last week they were netting chums in the Noocksack throwing the bucks over board and after they cut the eggs out of the hens they toss them over also and then they are all whiny and crying because there are no fish. They are doing to elk and deer what they have done to the fish runs shoot everything year round don't believe me go check out some of their facebook sites conservations hell they don't know what the *censored* that is!
Not kidding you.  And if you'd like to have a sit down and we can crunch any numbers you'd like. You want to know what goes into a model? What the commitment to deer and elk is? That is if you don't already know?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 28, 2021, 09:44:29 PM
Depends what tribes your talking about I  know the coliville's do an excellant job with their game management the Yakamas are a complete disaster as well as alot of the tribes on the west side but I don't know them all
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 28, 2021, 09:53:16 PM
Yup, I've had long chats with the head game manager with the Colville tribe.  The Kalispell tribe also is very proactive. 

Tbar doesn't need to get all defensive as he does in these threads,  it's true theres no $$ in predator hunting,  no incentive.  The Colvilles got wolf trapping in 101 but without incentive what's to keep them out there doing it beyond the initial cool new thing to do?

I'd like to something like F4WM in WA funneling up to $2500 for a wolf like in Idaho, then we'd see stuff happening
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: TD3939 on November 28, 2021, 09:54:49 PM
Yes when the Game department adopted the permit system for elk hunting 25ish years ago I was fully on board thinking some day I would have the opportunity for a "once in a lifetime hunt"....Little did I know at the time that the tribes would be skimming the cream off our elk herds.  With no regulations or seemingly a conscious, that opportunity has been lost as I'm still waiting to be drawn for "once in a lifetime hunt".

So here I sit with 25 points knowing I'll probably never be drawn because of the very few Quality tags available to me.  I can't help but wonder of the lost opportunity and how many more bulls would be available every year if we all played by the same rules.

I feel if it weren't for the tribes abusing their "right",  The Colockum would offer world class elk hunt with 10x the Quality tags availble today

Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: dreamingbig on November 28, 2021, 10:09:27 PM
Yup, I've had long chats with the head game manager with the Colville tribe.  The Kalispell tribe also is very proactive. 

Tbar doesn't need to get all defensive as he does in these threads,  it's true theres no $$ in predator hunting,  no incentive.  The Colvilles got wolf trapping in 101 but without incentive what's to keep them out there doing it beyond the initial cool new thing to do?

I'd like to something like F4WM in WA funneling up to $2500 for a wolf like in Idaho, then we'd see stuff happening
Letís get it going!  I canít think of a legal issue.  They can legally hunt them. Maybe start at $500 for a wolf or a cougar.  Have to provide gps coordinates of the kill site.

It is the only chance we have at predator management.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: trophyhunt on November 28, 2021, 11:41:42 PM
Yes when the Game department adopted the permit system for elk hunting 25ish years ago I was fully on board thinking some day I would have the opportunity for a "once in a lifetime hunt"....Little did I know at the time that the tribes would be skimming the cream off our elk herds.  With no regulations or seemingly a conscious, that opportunity has been lost as I'm still waiting to be drawn for "once in a lifetime hunt".

So here I sit with 25 points knowing I'll probably never be drawn because of the very few Quality tags available to me.  I can't help but wonder of the lost opportunity and how many more bulls would be available every year if we all played by the same rules.

I feel if it weren't for the tribes abusing their "right",  The Colockum would offer world class elk hunt with 10x the Quality tags availble today
:yeah: well said!
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: trophyhunt on November 28, 2021, 11:45:29 PM
We have been hunting late archery in the 342, natives were leaving the hills as we were heading in just before light.,,,, common sense tells you what?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2021, 07:45:04 AM
Yes when the Game department adopted the permit system for elk hunting 25ish years ago I was fully on board thinking some day I would have the opportunity for a "once in a lifetime hunt"....Little did I know at the time that the tribes would be skimming the cream off our elk herds.  With no regulations or seemingly a conscious, that opportunity has been lost as I'm still waiting to be drawn for "once in a lifetime hunt".

So here I sit with 25 points knowing I'll probably never be drawn because of the very few Quality tags available to me.  I can't help but wonder of the lost opportunity and how many more bulls would be available every year if we all played by the same rules.

I feel if it weren't for the tribes abusing their "right",  The Colockum would offer world class elk hunt with 10x the Quality tags availble today
:yeah: well said!
   


I agree with you 💯 percent but that ship sailed already, set up a program to pay them for killing predators. Best chance to save elk and deer herds and it will blow the *censored*s minds 👍😂
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 29, 2021, 08:23:11 AM
I don't know about there but in the Nooksack the Indians can hunt with rifles, 24/7 during bow and muzzy seasons.  Yes spot lighting is legal for them is what I'm told.
Wrong!

I was told by a Nooksack State Gamey the indians are road hunting 24/7 in the nooksack in their 8 month season and tag alotment and there is nothing he can do about it.   Maybe its technically not allowed by the tribe (?) but even if not its not enforced.   Each of the approx 36 tags can be passed around if not filled during holders time allotment. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Practical Approach on November 29, 2021, 08:27:46 AM
Washington state hunters have got to figure out how to become as loud as the anti-hunting groups.  While folks bicker on this website about who is killing too many animals or whether there are too many predators, the organized anti hunter groups out there have eliminated spring bear hunts for 2022.  So, over the last 25 years, body gripping traps were banned, hunting cougars with hounds was banned, and now the elimination of spring bear hunts for 2022 or?????   I would wager that those two new commissioners will continue to work to eliminate your hunting opportunities.  Not through science or date, but through ignorance, emotions and acting as mouthpieces for anti hunting pro predator organizations. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 29, 2021, 08:27:59 AM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: mburrows on November 29, 2021, 08:49:48 AM
Came across a small buck in the back of truck in entiat last week that was shot right off the road in the head with a rifle. I called it in thinking it might be poaching as the buck was untagged. Warden went and made contact, turned out to be Yakima tribal members, they pulled two small bucks out that day.

Quite frustrating knowing guys are up there with a special archery permit and the tribes can go in there guns blazing.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 08:52:58 AM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.

We've talked about that on this forum a few times.

OTC any elk in these areas will bring the tribes to the table for discussions about sharing the resource a bit more equally

This is the scorched earth option.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 08:55:44 AM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 09:00:47 AM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.

We've talked about that on this forum a few times.

OTC any elk in these areas will bring the tribes to the table for discussions about sharing the resource a bit more equally

This is the scorched earth option.
Let me know when you become a wdfw policy maker and we can discuss equity.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 09:05:12 AM
Mod hat on

Mods are not here to censor content, tribal hunting is an issue that affects hunting in WA and therefore a legitimate topic of discussion.  If someone goes too far or gets too heated and breaks 4m rules we'll warn and ban as appropriate, what side of the issue they're on is irrelevant. 

We're not going to automatically shut down all unfavorable topics regarding native hunting. 

If you want to represent "the tribes" in your debate, how you choose to do so is entirely up to you.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 09:12:56 AM
Mod hat on

Mods are not here to censor content, tribal hunting is an issue that affects hunting in WA and therefore a legitimate topic of discussion.  If someone goes too far or gets too heated and breaks 4m rules we'll warn and ban as appropriate, what side of the issue they're on is irrelevant. 

We're not going to automatically shut down all unfavorable topics regarding native hunting. 

If you want to represent "the tribes" in your debate, how you choose to do so is entirely up to you.
Man you are tough to articulate courtesy to.  The courtesy was simply to the op. Not your ignorant misreprentation of your validity in the wildlife policy world.  I only represent myself, but I am native! ;)
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Special T on November 29, 2021, 09:28:52 AM
Yup, I've had long chats with the head game manager with the Colville tribe.  The Kalispell tribe also is very proactive. 

Tbar doesn't need to get all defensive as he does in these threads,  it's true theres no $$ in predator hunting,  no incentive.  The Colvilles got wolf trapping in 101 but without incentive what's to keep them out there doing it beyond the initial cool new thing to do?

I'd like to something like F4WM in WA funneling up to $2500 for a wolf like in Idaho, then we'd see stuff happening
Letís get it going!  I canít think of a legal issue.  They can legally hunt them. Maybe start at $500 for a wolf or a cougar.  Have to provide gps coordinates of the kill site.

It is the only chance we have at predator management.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aside from complaining this is the only productive path forward. If you want to fight Tribes over a dwindling resource you will spend vast sums of cash and likely get no where.

Turn the perceived negative into a positive. It is my understanding that hounds, and traditional trapping equipment is available to Tribal members.  If that is the case (99% think Im right but perhaps Some one can correct me if I am mistaken) then the State, Peta and other Anit Predator control groups can do nothing about it.

This is where I believe it becomes problematic. F4WM operates in relatively friendly states and still encounters all kinds of problems. I have talked with a few sportsmen Orgs and F4WM about doing something like that in this state. Orgs in WA don't seem interested in touching it. 1 they would essentially be fighting the WDFW and could loose further cooperation with them on important matters. 2 Many sportsmen, that are their members, would rebel because they share the same shortsighted opinions that many on here do.

I personally think the only way for this to work is for a Tribe to set this up as an experiment. Some of us that are not shortsighted would support it. Not all Tribes are created equal. In both the Ceded areas that they could do this, or the public/hunters perception of them executing the program. The major limiting factor is that Tribes are not likely interested in making a public display of what they are doing. I know that Certain tribes are already doing some of this on a limited scale, but it isnt public. Most of you likely don't know about it. Additionally Some Tribes have done awesome predator Prey studies that refute the BS from the WDFW. They don't seem to be persuadable to share that information with the public. If I were to happen a guess it is that they want to keep their powder dry for a lawsuit of their time and choosing. If we are REALLY lucky more Tribes will have younger savvy Tribal councils that are willing to extend the olive branch in Public.

Why Do I think this? The City of Blaine and the Whatcom county tried to impose a no shooting accordance in Drayton Harbor. the Washington Waterfowl Association fought this. The government entities were willing to give a tribal exception and screw normal hunters. Guess what? The local tribes stood with sportsmen and as a result the ordinances died. This should give us hope that if we can get our S together we could expand on this gesture.

I have said some rather negative and ignorant things on here about tribal issues. Sportsmen NEED to either dive deep into issues or trust an organization that will. In the last several years I have tried to do more reading on hunting issues and listen to more commission meetings, a rather huge investment of time I might add. I wouldn't expect every sportsmen to go to the same length but I wish they would. Many of you may not realize we are on the precipice of a WDFW stacked full of Anti hunters. Many of us have complained that the governor, the department, the legislature does not listen to us. We NEED all the Allies we can get right now.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on November 29, 2021, 09:31:50 AM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.

PM me - I stayed at the guys place for 4 days - legit gamey.  Not sure where you are getting your info but I'm getting mine straight from the only enforcement on the ground there.   There is no better info on what is actually happening.  Sorry if reality doesn't jive with your expectations or hopes. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 09:42:44 AM
Pm sent
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: SuperX on November 29, 2021, 09:44:51 AM
If we do a good enough job of incenting predator control by the tribes, they can later use the threat of extirpation to get non-hunting groups to pay them NOT to do it.  Looks like a recurring revenue source for them and more elk and deer for everyone.  Win Win
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: TD3939 on November 29, 2021, 09:45:48 AM
I know it will never happen, but in a perfect world all of the Elk hunters in this state would take a year off and not buy an elk tag.  The State might pay attention to our grievance if the General fund took a major hit.

As much as I appreciate being able to blow off steam here about this topic (my pet peeve), Nothing will ever happen here until we generate a collective voice and have the leverage to force policy makers to hear us
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idahohuntr on November 29, 2021, 09:54:09 AM
We NEED all the Allies we can get right now.
I completely agree.  I think Tribes are the best shot at straightening out this commission and getting the governors ear.  I'd love to see Tribes hammering Lorna Smith for her racist policies that arbitrarily protect predators at the expense of important tribal treaty resources (deer and elk). 

Tribes have a large stake (and a lot of resources) invested in ensuring fish and wildlife resources are plentiful.  I get that sportsmen, typically ignorant on matters of tribal treaties, feel like they are being cheated when a Tribal member harvests or has opportunities not available to them...and I get the complaints about very small numbers of tribal members harvesting a LOT of bulls and bucks.  But sportsman and tribal members have a lot of shared interests and we need to find ways to work together.  Predator management may be one great example...continuing to drive a wedge over Tribal members exercising treaty rights is a non-starter IMO.   :twocents:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: NRA4LIFE on November 29, 2021, 09:57:41 AM
I would be all for that.  Then I wouldn't have to wait until mid June to know I was not selected for anything.  This would greatly assist my out of state hunting plans.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: bearhunter99 on November 29, 2021, 10:05:39 AM
If more of the other tribes in this state took some pointers from the Colville tribe we wouldn't be having as many of these discussions.  Also, just like everything else in the world, the few spoil it for the many. 

If some of the tribal councils held some of the members responsible for the excessive taking of big game and fish it would go a long way, both in the relationship with non-natives and in the overall conservation of our resources.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 10:06:17 AM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.

PM me - I stayed at the guys place for 4 days - legit gamey.  Not sure where you are getting your info but I'm getting mine straight from the only enforcement on the ground there.   There is no better info on what is actually happening.  Sorry if reality doesn't jive with your expectations or hopes.
Pm sent. Let me know if you are going to respond. Obviously you were either misrepresenting or have low integrity.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 10:09:10 AM
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 10:10:11 AM
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
Who's throwing anyone under a bus?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 10:13:09 AM
It's not inconceivable to me that you could raise a big stink for this gamie with the state, possibly get him fired. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 10:14:02 AM
It's not inconceivable to me that you could raise a big stink for this gamie with the state, possibly get him fired.
Your ignorance shines!
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Special T on November 29, 2021, 10:15:10 AM
We NEED all the Allies we can get right now.
I completely agree.  I think Tribes are the best shot at straightening out this commission and getting the governors ear.  I'd love to see Tribes hammering Lorna Smith for her racist policies that arbitrarily protect predators at the expense of important tribal treaty resources (deer and elk). 

Tribes have a large stake (and a lot of resources) invested in ensuring fish and wildlife resources are plentiful.  I get that sportsmen, typically ignorant on matters of tribal treaties, feel like they are being cheated when a Tribal member harvests or has opportunities not available to them...and I get the complaints about very small numbers of tribal members harvesting a LOT of bulls and bucks.  But sportsman and tribal members have a lot of shared interests and we need to find ways to work together.  Predator management may be one great example...continuing to drive a wedge over Tribal members exercising treaty rights is a non-starter IMO.   :twocents:


Unfortunately I do not have access to the relevant numbers, as some tribes have no limits reporting or seasons. so lets go with some numbers we can do some back of napkin math with.

For every additional cougar they take approximately 50=- deer/elk a year.  How many deer or elk do the "Worst tribal offender" take? 50? 100? Take out 2 additional cats and the numbers equal out. The total number of Register Yakimas is 10800 or so. lets say each of them harvest 1 animal a year (an over estimation I'm guessing since the total Yakima and Colockum elk herds only equal about 9k elk) that means that a harvest of 216 cats would negate those over estimated harvest numbers.  We know that in 2018 ALL cougar harvest open season and depredation was 376  STATE WIDE!
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/management/game-harvest/2018/cougar

Could you imagine what would happen if the Yakimas Ran hounds and trapped on the ceded grounds and killed 100 cats?  Now expand those kinds of numbers to other tribes. We might actually get to some real harvest numbers that can impact our deer and elk herds.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 10:22:00 AM
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
More like have a cup of coffee with all involved.  In person accountability is often different than on the web. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 10:28:52 AM
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
More like have a cup of coffee with all involved.  In person accountability is often different than on the web.

I don't buy that for a second.  I believe you'd use your position to round up complaints to the state from tribe leadership about a "gamie spreading racist lies to create anti-tribal animus".

With the current leaders and politics in this state, he'd likely not survive that onslaught.


Hence my comment about throwing the dude under a bus.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 10:33:11 AM
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
More like have a cup of coffee with all involved.  In person accountability is often different than on the web.

I don't buy that for a second.  I believe you'd use your position to round up complaints to the state from tribe leadership about a "gamie spreading racist lies to create anti-tribal animus".

With the current leaders and politics in this state, he'd likely not survive that onslaught.


Hence my comment about throwing the dude under a bus.
You exude ignorance! For what to protect your own lies? You certainly don't know any of the wardens in this area or you wouldn't infere the idiotic rhetoric you spew. And who are you quoting?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 10:36:39 AM
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
More like have a cup of coffee with all involved.  In person accountability is often different than on the web.

I don't buy that for a second.  I believe you'd use your position to round up complaints to the state from tribe leadership about a "gamie spreading racist lies to create anti-tribal animus".

With the current leaders and politics in this state, he'd likely not survive that onslaught.


Hence my comment about throwing the dude under a bus.
You exude ignorance! For what to protect your own lies? You certainly don't know any of the wardens in this area or you wouldn't infere the idiotic rhetoric you spew. And who are you quoting?

Sorry, I just don't believe that you're such a benevolent person as to invite a state gamie and a random HW'r to a cup of coffee "to discuss tribal hunting rights"

You've already said you do not represent the tribe, but you want to have a cup of joe to do just that?

"You certainly don't know any of the wardens in this area or you wouldn't infere the idiotic rhetoric you spew"

It sounds like you do, and its not a positive.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 10:45:49 AM
So Magnum_Willys doesn't want to honor his own request so I'll offer a little more. I  have a friend that lives really close to the Nooksack, he let a colleague stay at his house when he drew the tag, then a firefighter, then sniper10 (jt) on here and I'm guessing it led to m agnum staying there.  He and I have frequent and controversial discussions quite a bit.  I have never thought about taking them beyond discussion.  I won't throw out professional duties but these have predated and collegial affiliation. There is often erroneous information that gets corrected.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2021, 01:21:18 PM
We NEED all the Allies we can get right now.
I completely agree.  I think Tribes are the best shot at straightening out this commission and getting the governors ear.  I'd love to see Tribes hammering Lorna Smith for her racist policies that arbitrarily protect predators at the expense of important tribal treaty resources (deer and elk). 

Tribes have a large stake (and a lot of resources) invested in ensuring fish and wildlife resources are plentiful.  I get that sportsmen, typically ignorant on matters of tribal treaties, feel like they are being cheated when a Tribal member harvests or has opportunities not available to them...and I get the complaints about very small numbers of tribal members harvesting a LOT of bulls and bucks.  But sportsman and tribal members have a lot of shared interests and we need to find ways to work together.  Predator management may be one great example...continuing to drive a wedge over Tribal members exercising treaty rights is a non-starter IMO.   :twocents:


Unfortunately I do not have access to the relevant numbers, as some tribes have no limits reporting or seasons. so lets go with some numbers we can do some back of napkin math with.

For every additional cougar they take approximately 50=- deer/elk a year.  How many deer or elk do the "Worst tribal offender" take? 50? 100? Take out 2 additional cats and the numbers equal out. The total number of Register Yakimas is 10800 or so. lets say each of them harvest 1 animal a year (an over estimation I'm guessing since the total Yakima and Colockum elk herds only equal about 9k elk) that means that a harvest of 216 cats would negate those over estimated harvest numbers.  We know that in 2018 ALL cougar harvest open season and depredation was 376  STATE WIDE!
https://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/management/game-harvest/2018/cougar

Could you imagine what would happen if the Yakimas Ran hounds and trapped on the ceded grounds and killed 100 cats?  Now expand those kinds of numbers to other tribes. We might actually get to some real harvest numbers that can impact our deer and elk herds.
   

 :yeah: The plus is I cant wait to see the anti hunters lose their minds when its Native Americans fixing the problem  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2021, 01:24:01 PM
We NEED all the Allies we can get right now.
I completely agree.  I think Tribes are the best shot at straightening out this commission and getting the governors ear.  I'd love to see Tribes hammering Lorna Smith for her racist policies that arbitrarily protect predators at the expense of important tribal treaty resources (deer and elk). 

Tribes have a large stake (and a lot of resources) invested in ensuring fish and wildlife resources are plentiful.  I get that sportsmen, typically ignorant on matters of tribal treaties, feel like they are being cheated when a Tribal member harvests or has opportunities not available to them...and I get the complaints about very small numbers of tribal members harvesting a LOT of bulls and bucks.  But sportsman and tribal members have a lot of shared interests and we need to find ways to work together.  Predator management may be one great example...continuing to drive a wedge over Tribal members exercising treaty rights is a non-starter IMO.   :twocents:
   

 :tup:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Jingles on November 29, 2021, 01:25:26 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2021, 01:34:06 PM
So Magnum_Willys doesn't want to honor his own request so I'll offer a little more. I  have a friend that lives really close to the Nooksack, he let a colleague stay at his house when he drew the tag, then a firefighter, then sniper10 (jt) on here and I'm guessing it led to m agnum staying there.  He and I have frequent and controversial discussions quite a bit.  I have never thought about taking them beyond discussion.  I won't throw out professional duties but these have predated and collegial affiliation. There is often erroneous information that gets corrected.
 

No offense but forget about the game warden or whatever-since you are native what are your thoughts on predator control? Running hounds in washington for cats would be amazing. The wolf hunting and trapping would be equally good. Baiting bears that haven't seen bait for 20 plus years? What are you waiting for. There has to be a way to set up a reimbursement program as well. I would hardly hunt elk and deer if I had the predator opportunities that exist for Native Americans. Bear and cougar meat is good  :tup: [ 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: HillHound on November 29, 2021, 02:01:20 PM
I could go off ranting on this all night but Iíve done that before and obviously know it will get me nowhere so Iíll just throw this out there

Quinalts sell bear tags to non-Indians and bait the Bears in. No Washington state bear tag is needed. They are doing this to mitigate the severe damage their timber is suffering from the Bears peeling the bark. Why canít the yakamas charge me for a cougar tag and take me out on a hound hunt? It would be to mitigate the severe damage their recourses are suffering much like the Quinault. Obviously the Quinaultís probably donít enjoy taking non-natives hunting on their land, but if itís saving trees and Iíll give them 3000 bucks theyíre more than happy to. So like some of said maybe we just need to find the right ways to incentivize the few people who can actually do something about the problems we are having
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: trophyhunt on November 29, 2021, 02:04:10 PM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
yeah this 10000%.  Been saying it for years now, open everything up otc cow, bull, buck doe!!!  Itís the only idea that will work and you can tell because the natives hate when it gets brought up!!! 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 29, 2021, 02:12:04 PM
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
yeah this 10000%.  Been saying it for years now, open everything up otc cow, bull, buck doe!!!  Itís the only idea that will work and you can tell because the natives hate when it gets brought up!!! 
:yeah:  They don't like it when you repost pictures of there truckload of deer or elk you'll get banned from their facebook site :yike:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idahohuntr on November 29, 2021, 02:23:11 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
I'd suggest you read the US Constitution (Article 6 in particular) - then take a look at the Treaties signed with area tribes :tup:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 29, 2021, 02:55:15 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
I'd suggest you read the US Constitution (Article 6 in particular) - then take a look at the Treaties signed with area tribes :tup:
Aren't the treaties a living-breathing document that need to be amended to keep up with the times . If not maybe they should be  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 29, 2021, 02:59:19 PM
I could go off ranting on this all night but Iíve done that before and obviously know it will get me nowhere so Iíll just throw this out there

Quinalts sell bear tags to non-Indians and bait the Bears in. No Washington state bear tag is needed. They are doing this to mitigate the severe damage their timber is suffering from the Bears peeling the bark. Why canít the yakamas charge me for a cougar tag and take me out on a hound hunt? It would be to mitigate the severe damage their recourses are suffering much like the Quinault. Obviously the Quinaultís probably donít enjoy taking non-natives hunting on their land, but if itís saving trees and Iíll give them 3000 bucks theyíre more than happy to. So like some of said maybe we just need to find the right ways to incentivize the few people who can actually do something about the problems we are having

Maybe they can. Have you developed a relationship with any of the Yakimas? That might be a start. There are several who are members of this forum.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Jingles on November 29, 2021, 03:13:58 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
I'd suggest you read the US Constitution (Article 6 in particular) - then take a look at the Treaties signed with area tribes :tup:

Broke out handy dandy copy of my pocket Constitution to check if I was wrong and you have me wondering what Constitution you are referring to as Article VI (6) of the US Constitution refers to "All Depts contracted and Engagements entered into before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Conferation."
The Confederation of which they speak was how the Colonies were being governed prior to the Constitution
Conferation of States.

The only place the Indiams are mentioned in the first seven Articles is in Article 1 section 8 paragraph 3, which describes what authority Congress has and what they are allowed to do.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"

Care to review your copy of the Constitution and try again?
"
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idahohuntr on November 29, 2021, 03:20:47 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
I'd suggest you read the US Constitution (Article 6 in particular) - then take a look at the Treaties signed with area tribes :tup:

Broke out handy dandy copy of my pocket Constitution to check if I was wrong and you have me wondering what Constitution you are referring to as Article VI (6) of the US Constitution refers to "All Depts contracted and Engagements entered into before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Conferation."
The Confederation of which they speak was how the Colonies were being governed prior to the Constitution
Conferation of States.

The only place the Indiams are mentioned in the first seven Articles is in Article 1 section 8 paragraph 3, which describes what authority Congress has and what they are allowed to do.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"

Care to review your copy of the Constitution and try again?
"
You read/typed up the first sentence of Article 6...now read the second sentence...."...all Treaties made, or which shall be made,...shall be the supreme Law of the Land"
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Rainier10 on November 29, 2021, 03:24:34 PM
I could go off ranting on this all night but Iíve done that before and obviously know it will get me nowhere so Iíll just throw this out there

Quinalts sell bear tags to non-Indians and bait the Bears in. No Washington state bear tag is needed. They are doing this to mitigate the severe damage their timber is suffering from the Bears peeling the bark. Why canít the yakamas charge me for a cougar tag and take me out on a hound hunt? It would be to mitigate the severe damage their recourses are suffering much like the Quinault. Obviously the Quinaultís probably donít enjoy taking non-natives hunting on their land, but if itís saving trees and Iíll give them 3000 bucks theyíre more than happy to. So like some of said maybe we just need to find the right ways to incentivize the few people who can actually do something about the problems we are having
This is a great idea and I would gladly pay to hunt cougars and bears with dogs along side a tribal member especially if it could be on ceded ground and off the reservation.  I can't even imagine how much money could be made in the first couple years of that with the target rich predator environment we have right now statewide.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: HillHound on November 29, 2021, 03:25:43 PM
I do know one personally, not a member on here, but we usually try to purposely stay off of these kind of topics because much like many of the conversations on here they end up going the wrong direction and  nobody ends up happy with the outcome in the end.  I will check with Him and see if he knows if this is a possibility. Maybe some of the native members on here can chime in if itís a possibility and they are looking to start taking us out on some guided hound hunts.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 29, 2021, 03:31:09 PM
We've literally had dozens of threads, scores even, in which it's been pointed out that treaties passed by Congress and signed into law by the POTUS are binding. If you have a problem with the rights spelled out in the treaties, you have two choices. 1. Go to Congress to have the treaties changed, or 2. go to the nation in question and ask for voluntary regulation/restriction of the rights granted in the treaty(s). And, if you think laws are being broken by anyone, take your evidence to the LE for that jurisdiction and present it. Tribal police do arrest and prosecute their own members for breaking the law.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: pianoman9701 on November 29, 2021, 03:35:38 PM
I do know one personally, not a member on here, but we usually try to purposely stay off of these kind of topics because much like many of the conversations on here they end up going the wrong direction and  nobody ends up happy with the outcome in the end.  I will check with Him and see if he knows if this is a possibility. Maybe some of the native members on here can chime in if itís a possibility and they are looking to start taking us out on some guided hound hunts.

I suggest that if your impetus for the conversation is to actually gleen information, as opposed to putting forward your personal biases and suspicions regarding tribal harvest, you may accomplish and learn a great deal. Best of luck moving forward.  :tup:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Jingles on November 29, 2021, 03:35:47 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
I'd suggest you read the US Constitution (Article 6 in particular) - then take a look at the Treaties signed with area tribes :tup:

Broke out handy dandy copy of my pocket Constitution to check if I was wrong and you have me wondering what Constitution you are referring to as Article VI (6) of the US Constitution refers to "All Depts contracted and Engagements entered into before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Conferation."
The Confederation of which they speak was how the Colonies were being governed prior to the Constitution
Conferation of States.

The only place the Indiams are mentioned in the first seven Articles is in Article 1 section 8 paragraph 3, which describes what authority Congress has and what they are allowed to do.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"

Care to review your copy of the Constitution and try again?
"
You read/typed up the first sentence of Article 6...now read the second sentence...."...all Treaties made, or which shall be made,...shall be the supreme Law of the Land"
" and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution  or Laws of any State to the Contrary, notwithstanding"
The Laws of Washington State set the dates and Harvest limits of game therefore have senority and are the laws of the Land in WA State.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idahohuntr on November 29, 2021, 03:48:58 PM
Here is an idea, as long as the tribes clain Sovereign Nation status any hunting, fishing, trapping on ANY lands not directly within the defined reservation boundaries require a Non Resident Alien License.
I'd suggest you read the US Constitution (Article 6 in particular) - then take a look at the Treaties signed with area tribes :tup:

Broke out handy dandy copy of my pocket Constitution to check if I was wrong and you have me wondering what Constitution you are referring to as Article VI (6) of the US Constitution refers to "All Depts contracted and Engagements entered into before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Conferation."
The Confederation of which they speak was how the Colonies were being governed prior to the Constitution
Conferation of States.

The only place the Indiams are mentioned in the first seven Articles is in Article 1 section 8 paragraph 3, which describes what authority Congress has and what they are allowed to do.
"To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes"

Care to review your copy of the Constitution and try again?
"
You read/typed up the first sentence of Article 6...now read the second sentence...."...all Treaties made, or which shall be made,...shall be the supreme Law of the Land"
" and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution  or Laws of any State to the Contrary, notwithstanding"
The Laws of Washington State set the dates and Harvest limits of game therefore have senority and are the laws of the Land in WA State.
You are not interpreting that correctly - the Treaties made by the US (such as tribal treaties) are the supreme law of the land.  States are subordinate if there is a conflict with a treaty.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idaho guy on November 29, 2021, 04:14:07 PM
I could go off ranting on this all night but Iíve done that before and obviously know it will get me nowhere so Iíll just throw this out there

Quinalts sell bear tags to non-Indians and bait the Bears in. No Washington state bear tag is needed. They are doing this to mitigate the severe damage their timber is suffering from the Bears peeling the bark. Why canít the yakamas charge me for a cougar tag and take me out on a hound hunt? It would be to mitigate the severe damage their recourses are suffering much like the Quinault. Obviously the Quinaultís probably donít enjoy taking non-natives hunting on their land, but if itís saving trees and Iíll give them 3000 bucks theyíre more than happy to. So like some of said maybe we just need to find the right ways to incentivize the few people who can actually do something about the problems we are having
This is a great idea and I would gladly pay to hunt cougars and bears with dogs along side a tribal member especially if it could be on ceded ground and off the reservation.  I can't even imagine how much money could be made in the first couple years of that with the target rich predator environment we have right now statewide.
   

 :yeah: probably be the best trophy lion hunt in the lower 48  :tup:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: NRA4LIFE on November 29, 2021, 04:18:08 PM
If the tribes could do that, it would be high on my list of hunts.  Even if it were only 100 cats, that would be a good start.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 29, 2021, 04:33:11 PM
 :yeah:
Poachers be poaching.
Nuff said
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 29, 2021, 04:34:42 PM
 :yeah:
No $$ in cougar or wolves
I would love,  absolutely love to compare roi with you.  Then maybe you wouldn't pop off with ignorant statements like this.  I don't think you have a clue what some tribes commit to conservation in this state.
You got to be kidding they net the rivers to the point where there's hardly any fish left to finish spawning, last week they were netting chums in the Noocksack throwing the bucks over board and after they cut the eggs out of the hens they toss them over also and then they are all whiny and crying because there are no fish. They are doing to elk and deer what they have done to the fish runs shoot everything year round don't believe me go check out some of their facebook sites conservations hell they don't know what the *censored* that is!
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 29, 2021, 04:40:14 PM
 :yeah: exactly
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.

We've talked about that on this forum a few times.

OTC any elk in these areas will bring the tribes to the table for discussions about sharing the resource a bit more equally

This is the scorched earth option.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 29, 2021, 04:42:50 PM
 Exactly
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.

PM me - I stayed at the guys place for 4 days - legit gamey.  Not sure where you are getting your info but I'm getting mine straight from the only enforcement on the ground there.   There is no better info on what is actually happening.  Sorry if reality doesn't jive with your expectations or hopes.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 29, 2021, 04:45:14 PM
 :bash:
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.

PM me - I stayed at the guys place for 4 days - legit gamey.  Not sure where you are getting your info but I'm getting mine straight from the only enforcement on the ground there.   There is no better info on what is actually happening.  Sorry if reality doesn't jive with your expectations or hopes.
Pm sent. Let me know if you are going to respond. Obviously you were either misrepresenting or have low integrity.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 29, 2021, 04:48:43 PM
Well said
Are we throwing a good game warden under the bus here?

That's sad..
More like have a cup of coffee with all involved.  In person accountability is often different than on the web.

I don't buy that for a second.  I believe you'd use your position to round up complaints to the state from tribe leadership about a "gamie spreading racist lies to create anti-tribal animus".

With the current leaders and politics in this state, he'd likely not survive that onslaught.


Hence my comment about throwing the dude under a bus.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Dan-o on November 29, 2021, 05:25:21 PM
Exactly
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.

PM me - I stayed at the guys place for 4 days - legit gamey.  Not sure where you are getting your info but I'm getting mine straight from the only enforcement on the ground there.   There is no better info on what is actually happening.  Sorry if reality doesn't jive with your expectations or hopes.

Respectfully, if you knew Tbar, you'd know that he is as much a man of his word as any member on this board.

If the man said talk over a cup of coffee, he meant talk over a cup of coffee.  Throwing a game warden under the bus is not who he is.

We can all have different opinions (heck, we've got people reinterpretting the U.S. Constitution in this thread) but I would not call his character into question.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 29, 2021, 05:30:15 PM
Thanks Dan-0  :tup:

I don't know Tbar one way or the other, just what he types on this forum.   

This thread didn't exactly endear me to him, calling every other person ignorant, liar and whatnot with zero positive or enlightening feedback, going off that, I hated to see a "legit gamie" be tossed under the native bus. 

We have so few "legit gamies" as it is

 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: TD on November 29, 2021, 05:36:26 PM
Ok I vote we do away with the Quality Elk incubator program weíve created for the native Americans.  Since 99 percent of us will never draw ďthe tagĒ the only way to level the playing field is to revert the seasons back to the way they were 30 years ago
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on November 29, 2021, 06:01:48 PM
Thanks Dan-o. My frustration definitely gets me sometimes.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Special T on November 29, 2021, 06:18:31 PM
PlateauNDN last active
December 14, 2020
Coastal_native
July 22, 2019, 08:29:30 PM

Some food for thought. Here are some members that Tried to give a contribution to the forum that I remember interacting with. Plat  probably being the most well known. Now I have not spoken with either of them in person or have inside info, but My guess is they got burnt out Trying to explain and argue with many on here.
Do you all want to play fight Cowboys and Indians? or do you want to actually  learn or fix something?

Im going to Steal a quote that a friend of mine says when discussing politics. "Politics is the art of the possible." -- Otto von Bismarck.

So many on here  say that we should do this, or Indians should do that... Never knowing or taking the time to learn what it would actually take to make those changes. Most of us have no Idea of the unintended consequences of what we speak... And normally Chastise government (in general) for the stupid stuff they do and the unintended results that happen.

More likely than not what is possible is that we could encourage Tribes to do the predator control that the State cannot/will not do. What would happen if Tribes over harvested Cats? Deer and Elk populations would explode increasing opportunity. Perhaps some Natives would make a living killing bobcats, and Cougars and selling the pelts making a Living doing something I cannot do. Is that fair? NO! but would I take that bargain over HSUS, PETA, Defenders of Wildlife and other Anti hunting groups driving hunting into the dirt?  SIGN ME UP! Could I finally be able to go on a hound hunt for a Cat? Possibly... Some of you repeat Pie in the sky statements when the basic effort to understand the problems has not been exerted.

My hope is that T bar does not become another Native that gets burnt out replying to blather on here. I provided 2 example of guys that disappeared responding to stupid S... Some things I might have even repeated myself along time ago.

I can dislike the fact that tribal members can drive in closed areas, behind gates, hunt more liberal seasons, shoot rifles when Im Archery hunting, AND STILL  understand that  HSUS, PETA and the like are a bigger danger to my hunting heritage, and my opportunities than any Indians are. It is SO shortsighted to fight over a shrinking pie with the Tribes than to grow the Pie so that the Tribal harves has little impact on me.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: trophyhunt on November 29, 2021, 06:51:30 PM
Nice words but in the end, nothing changes till we all play by the same rules.  Deleted several of my comments, Iíll stop hereÖ
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: jackelope on November 29, 2021, 08:00:44 PM
One thing I will add to the conversation that has little to no bearing on said conversations.

Game wardens, from what Iíve learned in the past here, hate to be referred to as ďgamies.Ē
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: MADMAX on November 29, 2021, 08:02:54 PM
You talking about the fish cops ?
 :chuckle:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Special T on November 29, 2021, 08:04:05 PM
One thing I will add to the conversation that has little to no bearing on said conversations.

Game wardens, from what Iíve learned in the past here, hate to be referred to as ďgamies.Ē
I know several Gamies and refer to them several different ways. none of which are fish cops however.  :chuckle:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: OutHouse on November 30, 2021, 10:36:04 AM
Exactly
In Native American impacted areas special tags will continue to be reduced until they get so low with low success that WDFW gives up and just makes area general season like Utah has in areas.   Why manage areas for jerky harvest?  Just open it up.
More ignorant rhetoric.  If the mods want to allow this train wreck to continue I'll continue to respond. Magnum what game warden? I'm sure you got a name, and I trust the state guys know the scenarios up here as well as the access.  I'll gladly follow up to clear the air but I'd bet their story will not be quite as you are recalling it.  I'm guessing you might be embellishing just a bit to look cool on here.

PM me - I stayed at the guys place for 4 days - legit gamey.  Not sure where you are getting your info but I'm getting mine straight from the only enforcement on the ground there.   There is no better info on what is actually happening.  Sorry if reality doesn't jive with your expectations or hopes.

Respectfully, if you knew Tbar, you'd know that he is as much a man of his word as any member on this board.

If the man said talk over a cup of coffee, he meant talk over a cup of coffee.  Throwing a game warden under the bus is not who he is.

We can all have different opinions (heck, we've got people reinterpretting the U.S. Constitution in this thread) but I would not call his character into question.

I agree. I've met Tbar in person and his knowledge about all of this is vast and layered with many complexities and personal experiences. It would be great for those involved in this dispute to take him up on that offer. Probably learn a lot.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 30, 2021, 11:26:31 AM
Totally agree, Donít see that happening though unfortunately.
Nice words but in the end, nothing changes till we all play by the same rules.  Deleted several of my comments, Iíll stop hereÖ
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: ThurstonCokid on November 30, 2021, 11:33:38 AM
I think we should start a "Go Fund Me" to pay them bounties for shooting predators that we can't.  :dunno:
Smart. Iíll throw cash at it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 30, 2021, 11:36:27 AM
@bigtex   This question has come up and you might be able to answer it.

Can a tribal member take a regular non-tribal hunter and run hounds, tree cougar or bear, trap wolves.. etc, the tribe would issue a tag to that non-tribe person, and let that non-tribal member harvest it?

This question is regarding off reservation "in common with" land or ceded lands. 

My opinion - the non-tribal member will be bound by all WDFW rules and regulations, thus the tribe could not guide a hunt for a non-tribal member unless they follow all the WDFW rules for that non-tribal hunter, or the hunt is conducted on the reservation where WDFW has no jurisdiction. 


Thanks BT
 

 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 30, 2021, 11:39:10 AM
Agree, would love to see that happen.
I know it will never happen, but in a perfect world all of the Elk hunters in this state would take a year off and not buy an elk tag.  The State might pay attention to our grievance if the General fund took a major hit.

As much as I appreciate being able to blow off steam here about this topic (my pet peeve), Nothing will ever happen here until we generate a collective voice and have the leverage to force policy makers to hear us
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tinmaniac on November 30, 2021, 11:51:38 AM
Careful what you wish for,hoof rot just may make buying a tag pointless.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: idahohuntr on November 30, 2021, 12:20:54 PM
@bigtex   This question has come up and you might be able to answer it.

Can a tribal member take a regular non-tribal hunter and run hounds, tree cougar or bear, trap wolves.. etc, the tribe would issue a tag to that non-tribe person, and let that non-tribal member harvest it?

This question is regarding off reservation "in common with" land or ceded lands. 

My opinion - the non-tribal member will be bound by all WDFW rules and regulations, thus the tribe could not guide a hunt for a non-tribal member unless they follow all the WDFW rules for that non-tribal hunter, or the hunt is conducted on the reservation where WDFW has no jurisdiction. 


Thanks BT
 
You are generally correct. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: boneaddict on November 30, 2021, 12:45:34 PM
Itís written into the Colville regs that a tribal memeber cannot run hounds with a non tribal member present.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: NRA4LIFE on November 30, 2021, 12:56:01 PM
Anybody have a clue how many cats the tribes kill vs non-tribal?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: meatwhack on November 30, 2021, 04:44:43 PM
I donít believe any treaty ever guaranteed access in a 4wd vehicle on roads paid for by tax payers to access their ceded hunting grounds.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 30, 2021, 04:47:56 PM
favorable courts did that
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 30, 2021, 05:04:57 PM
 :yeah:
I donít believe any treaty ever guaranteed access in a 4wd vehicle on roads paid for by tax payers to access their ceded hunting grounds.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on November 30, 2021, 05:05:31 PM
 :tup:
favorable courts did that
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Platensek-po on November 30, 2021, 06:43:49 PM
I donít believe any treaty ever guaranteed access in a 4wd vehicle on roads paid for by tax payers to access their ceded hunting grounds.
Hmmm Iím pretty sure it does exactly that. It allows them access to hunt that land in the same way their ancestors did. The fact that their are roads and cars now is irrevelant. Should the second amendment not include semi autos because they didnít exist when it was written???
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on November 30, 2021, 06:50:21 PM
This isn't a native bash thread, don't be posting stuff like what was deleted. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: meatwhack on November 30, 2021, 06:54:34 PM
I donít believe any treaty ever guaranteed access in a 4wd vehicle on roads paid for by tax payers to access their ceded hunting grounds.
Hmmm Iím pretty sure it does exactly that. It allows them access to hunt that land in the same way their ancestors did. The fact that their are roads and cars now is irrevelant. Should the second amendment not include semi autos because they didnít exist when it was written???

If a road is closed for public travel youíre saying they should still have access in a vehicle not by foot? 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: h20hunter on November 30, 2021, 06:55:06 PM
Imo....there is a better way to make an opinion known. Just because a comment is negative towards ANY group doesn't mean it can't stay.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Platensek-po on November 30, 2021, 07:19:06 PM
I donít believe any treaty ever guaranteed access in a 4wd vehicle on roads paid for by tax payers to access their ceded hunting grounds.
Hmmm Iím pretty sure it does exactly that. It allows them access to hunt that land in the same way their ancestors did. The fact that their are roads and cars now is irrevelant. Should the second amendment not include semi autos because they didnít exist when it was written???

If a road is closed for public travel youíre saying they should still have access in a vehicle not by foot?

I donít know. If itís open to public travel then of course. Otherwise that might depend. The treaties guarantee access in order to hunt. Can they set up camps for months at a time and hunt their like they used too?? Who built the roads? What are they for? Remember that as a country we promised them they would always be able to have access to hunting and gathering in order to be allowed to live here. As much as hunter like to brag about bringing animals back from
Extinction it wasnít natives who took them to the brink. They didnít dam the rivers, they donít harvest tons and tons of fish on offshore giant vessels. They donít have a city of millions of people dumping raw sewage into the rivers and sound. I get they do things you donít agree with. I bet we do all sorts of stuff with resources and land that they donít agree with either. Focusing on minor issues while ignoring the bigger pictures of things gets everybody nowhere fast.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: bigtex on November 30, 2021, 08:35:35 PM
@bigtex   This question has come up and you might be able to answer it.

Can a tribal member take a regular non-tribal hunter and run hounds, tree cougar or bear, trap wolves.. etc, the tribe would issue a tag to that non-tribe person, and let that non-tribal member harvest it?

This question is regarding off reservation "in common with" land or ceded lands. 

My opinion - the non-tribal member will be bound by all WDFW rules and regulations, thus the tribe could not guide a hunt for a non-tribal member unless they follow all the WDFW rules for that non-tribal hunter, or the hunt is conducted on the reservation where WDFW has no jurisdiction. 


Thanks BT
KF - You are correct in your opinion/assumption.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: TD3939 on November 30, 2021, 09:00:53 PM
This thread is deteriorating into rhetoric.  As much as I appreciate both sides of this issue, the one fact here is if everyone was playing by the same rules the resource would be magnified such that we would all benefit.  I understand the treaties and all are set in stone.  But what about the tribes regulating the resource in concert with the state?  I feel personally it's not going to happen because some members of the tribes view this as some sort of pay back and love sticking to all of us that have to follow the rules.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on November 30, 2021, 09:15:44 PM
This thread is deteriorating into rhetoric.  As much as I appreciate both sides of this issue, the one fact here is if everyone was playing by the same rules the resource would be magnified such that we would all benefit.  I understand the treaties and all are set in stone.  But what about the tribes regulating the resource in concert with the state?  I feel personally it's not going to happen because some members of the tribes view this as some sort of pay back and love sticking to all of us that have to follow the rules.
I believe the treaties are only set in stone if you get the right lawyers and judges anything can be decided one way or another just look what judge Boldt did for them what if he had ruled the opposite way, we wouldn't be having this discussion
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Stein on November 30, 2021, 09:25:26 PM
I'll go out on a limb here which I'll probably regret.  Managing the resource in concert with the state would assume the state was a willing, able and effective partner.  From any perspective, how many feel the state is actively and effectively managing big game huntable resources?

I don't know the first thing about big game biology so I can't comment on that to a large degree.  I can at least compare interactions, documents and plans from this state to other western states and can say it appears to me WA isn't the leader of the pack.  I stopped buying big game license and tags for myself because given limited resources I just couldn't justify the investment in time or money in this state when I can drive a day and get to better hunting, better management and a brighter outlook in the future.  I would love to hunt local but I just don't see it as a logical choice now or in the future.

I have no doubt both sides can improve.  I also have no illusions about "our" side of the issue here.  I wish it were different or there was at least some light at the end of the tunnel to aim at.

My biggest wish might be that the treaties for hunting looked more like the treaties for fishing.  It's not awesome over there for sure but at least there is a notion that we split the available resource and on paper we are both part of the same team in terms of winning or losing together.  It seems the hunting treaties either assume the resource will always be there or doesn't care.  When they were written, "we" placed value on fish but not so much value on elk and deer.

Looking far into the future, it's hard to see how the "good" states aren't simply states where what happens here will happen there eventually.  More people, less habitat and the state (or citizen's initiatives) picking and choosing wildlife winners and losers based on public opinion.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Goosegos on November 30, 2021, 09:43:16 PM
FYI it was just a question and we have all the razors and quads there.  Getting frustrating
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 01, 2021, 07:16:39 AM
Boy you hit the nail on the head with your comment. What a concept we all play by the same rules for the benefit of all. Who would of thought.
This thread is deteriorating into rhetoric.  As much as I appreciate both sides of this issue, the one fact here is if everyone was playing by the same rules the resource would be magnified such that we would all benefit.  I understand the treaties and all are set in stone.  But what about the tribes regulating the resource in concert with the state?  I feel personally it's not going to happen because some members of the tribes view this as some sort of pay back and love sticking to all of us that have to follow the rules.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: spin05 on December 06, 2021, 01:40:25 AM
I cant speak about all tribes. The Quinaults do seem to do a great job especially on the fish side. I think the tribes behind the Nooksack heard are the reason the elk there are even in huntable numbers they are now. Those tribes up there where behind the relocating of the St helens elk to rebuild that Nooksack heard. I also heard they really dont get alot of permits. Pretty much the same amount the regular hunters get.  Id say thats pretty fair even if they do get more time in the field to fill them
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 06, 2021, 11:54:01 AM
This thread was started by someone who questioned people driving on closed roads and using rifles in an archery season. How this is fair I donít see that. How that benefits Deer and Elk herds that are on the decline I donít see that either. If we as a whole want to see our elk and deer herds improve all parties should work on a level playing field to do just that.
I cant speak about all tribes. The Quinaults do seem to do a great job especially on the fish side. I think the tribes behind the Nooksack heard are the reason the elk there are even in huntable numbers they are now. Those tribes up there where behind the relocating of the St helens elk to rebuild that Nooksack heard. I also heard they really dont get alot of permits. Pretty much the same amount the regular hunters get.  Id say thats pretty fair even if they do get more time in the field to fill them
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: logger on December 07, 2021, 07:37:57 AM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 07, 2021, 02:32:26 PM
 :yeah:
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 07, 2021, 05:45:20 PM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.

 :yeah:  Nooksack Natives have strict native hunter quotas but the "Ceremonial Harvest" is higher and those numbers aren't readily available that I've heard of.  Two weeks ago the Natives harvested 30 head out of one herd up in a Nooksack logging cut as the loggers watched.  "Ceremonial Harvest"  - which is all fine but messes up trying to manage by the numbers.    Maybe they do count them, if so wonder what the number is?   Whatever it is the Cougars/Bear are getting way more.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on December 07, 2021, 06:10:06 PM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.

 :yeah:  Nooksack Natives have strict native hunter quotas but the "Ceremonial Harvest" is higher and those numbers aren't readily available that I've heard of.  Two weeks ago the Natives harvested 30 head out of one herd up in a Nooksack logging cut as the loggers watched.  "Ceremonial Harvest"  - which is all fine but messes up trying to manage by the numbers.    Maybe they do count them, if so wonder what the number is?   Whatever it is the Cougars/Bear are getting way more.
They are doing to elk what they already have done to steelhead and salmon runs this state is screwed  :bash:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: bigdub257 on December 07, 2021, 06:47:21 PM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.

 :yeah:  Nooksack Natives have strict native hunter quotas but the "Ceremonial Harvest" is higher and those numbers aren't readily available that I've heard of.  up in a Nooksack logginTwo weeks ago the Natives harvested 30 head out of one herd g cut as the loggers watched. "Ceremonial Harvest"  - which is all fine but messes up trying to manage by the numbers.    Maybe they do count them, if so wonder what the number is?   Whatever it is the Cougars/Bear are getting way more.
They are doing to elk what they already have done to steelhead and salmon runs this state is screwed  :bash:

I wonder how many of those elk went to waste?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: HillHound on December 07, 2021, 06:57:34 PM
Yeah I wonder how many of them there was. Seem like it would take at least 12 to 15 proficient guys to even be able to process that many elk in any kind of a timely manner. Well Maybe not if youíre just grabbing heads and back straps
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 07, 2021, 09:43:46 PM
I canít comment on the processing of those 30
Elk.  It sounded like a big stink, loggers called authorities, werenít sure how much meat was going to be cared for.   Natives said was ceremonial and that was that.  Hopefully it was cared for and will feed some families.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: polishstunner on December 07, 2021, 09:47:47 PM
Surprised guys on this site spoke about this issue.  Not really politically correct to discuss this.

Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Dan-o on December 07, 2021, 11:17:31 PM
I canít comment on the processing of those 30
Elk.  It sounded like a big stink, loggers called authorities, werenít sure how much meat was going to be cared for.   Natives said was ceremonial and that was that.  Hopefully it was cared for and will feed some families.

Did they take any pictures?

Everyone has a phone these days.

I can't fathom a scenario where a group can drop 30 elk like that.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 08, 2021, 06:48:53 AM
I canít either.  But if I had pics I wouldnít  post them.  This isnít a Native Bashing thread.  We are all in this together against predators and habitat loss.  1 tribe takes 30 elk out of 1500 in the unit is a drop in the bucket and for good cause.   But I would like to see these harvests numbers tracked.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on December 08, 2021, 08:15:23 AM
I canít either.  But if I had pics I wouldnít  post them.  This isnít a Native Bashing thread.  We are all in this together against predators and habitat loss.  1 tribe takes 30 elk out of 1500 in the unit is a drop in the bucket and for good cause.   But I would like to see these harvests numbers tracked.
30 in one day but what about the other 351 days in a year  :dunno: People need to take pictures of natives slaughtering wildlife for so called ceremonial purposes so the average person can see what is happening to our wildlife :yike:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 08, 2021, 08:50:43 AM
Agree, If 30 Elk were killed total thatís one thing. But in one day? Thatís a whole different story. You canít negotiate with Predators not to kill, but you should be able to negotiate with the Tribes to help improve our Elk and Deer Herds. People on this thread have talked about asking the Tribes to increase their Predator take and lessen their take of Deer and Elk. That would be a great start to improve our Herds.
I canít either.  But if I had pics I wouldnít  post them.  This isnít a Native Bashing thread.  We are all in this together against predators and habitat loss.  1 tribe takes 30 elk out of 1500 in the unit is a drop in the bucket and for good cause.   But I would like to see these harvests numbers tracked.
30 in one day but what about the other 351 days in a year  :dunno: People need to take pictures of natives slaughtering wildlife for so called ceremonial purposes so the average person can see what is happening to our wildlife :yike:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tinmaniac on December 08, 2021, 09:31:55 AM
I canít comment on the processing of those 30
Elk.  It sounded like a big stink, loggers called authorities, werenít sure how much meat was going to be cared for.   Natives said was ceremonial and that was that.  Hopefully it was cared for and will feed some families.

Did they take any pictures?

Everyone has a phone these days.

I can't fathom a scenario where a group can drop 30 elk like that.
A couple trucks,a few guys,lots of bullets and no rules and presto.30 dead elk.We won't talk about the night spotlight hunts where everything that is hit but falls in the dark is left to rot.Truth isn't bashing.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: h20hunter on December 08, 2021, 09:33:33 AM
Truth is not and photo proof is something else entirely.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Practical Approach on December 08, 2021, 10:38:53 AM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.

 :yeah:  Nooksack Natives have strict native hunter quotas but the "Ceremonial Harvest" is higher and those numbers aren't readily available that I've heard of.  Two weeks ago the Natives harvested 30 head out of one herd up in a Nooksack logging cut as the loggers watched.  "Ceremonial Harvest"  - which is all fine but messes up trying to manage by the numbers.    Maybe they do count them, if so wonder what the number is?   Whatever it is the Cougars/Bear are getting way more.

I have been hearing that story since the late 1990's.  The story always has loggers watching, native hunters, slaughter, and either a large number of elk or the whole herd.  Sometimes they don't even take the meat in some of the scenarios. Ceremonial and Subsistence harvest is reported annually.  Harvest is tracked it can be found on the NWIFC website and in the WDFW annual reports.  I
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Whitefoot on December 08, 2021, 02:23:08 PM
Thought this thread was about road access?    :dunno:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: meatwhack on December 08, 2021, 02:43:13 PM
It is about road access and whether or not one user group has a separate set of rules to follow when it comes to public access on roads.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Rainier10 on December 08, 2021, 02:46:05 PM
It is about road access and whether or not one user group has a separate set of rules to follow when it comes to public access on roads.
:yeah:  It doesn't take much to derail these threads.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 08, 2021, 04:15:38 PM
And Guys using rifles in an archery area. Doesnít take much for this to splinter off. :twocents:
Thought this thread was about road access?    :dunno:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Blacktail Sniper on December 08, 2021, 04:25:18 PM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.

 :yeah:  Nooksack Natives have strict native hunter quotas but the "Ceremonial Harvest" is higher and those numbers aren't readily available that I've heard of.  Two weeks ago the Natives harvested 30 head out of one herd up in a Nooksack logging cut as the loggers watched.  "Ceremonial Harvest"  - which is all fine but messes up trying to manage by the numbers.    Maybe they do count them, if so wonder what the number is?   Whatever it is the Cougars/Bear are getting way more.

I have been hearing that story since the late 1990's.  The story always has loggers watching, native hunters, slaughter, and either a large number of elk or the whole herd.  Sometimes they don't even take the meat in some of the scenarios. Ceremonial and Subsistence harvest is reported annually.  Harvest is tracked it can be found on the NWIFC website and in the WDFW annual reports.  I
.

Practical Approach, thanks for the info in the bold, is that for all the tribes?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Practical Approach on December 08, 2021, 05:14:16 PM
elbe hills 6 tribes have keys to what otherwise is a walk in area for everyone else. wdfw couldn't manage a garage sale but it sure doesn't help when the tribe will not share harvest data to be a true co manager. Being that i'm in the woods year round I have seen the fall out on both sides, I have also met some awesome tribal members who had their crap together and really cared about the resource, Bottom line its going to take everyone to get on board because whats happening now isn't working for anyone.

 :yeah:  Nooksack Natives have strict native hunter quotas but the "Ceremonial Harvest" is higher and those numbers aren't readily available that I've heard of.  Two weeks ago the Natives harvested 30 head out of one herd up in a Nooksack logging cut as the loggers watched.  "Ceremonial Harvest"  - which is all fine but messes up trying to manage by the numbers.    Maybe they do count them, if so wonder what the number is?   Whatever it is the Cougars/Bear are getting way more.

I have been hearing that story since the late 1990's.  The story always has loggers watching, native hunters, slaughter, and either a large number of elk or the whole herd.  Sometimes they don't even take the meat in some of the scenarios. Ceremonial and Subsistence harvest is reported annually.  Harvest is tracked it can be found on the NWIFC website and in the WDFW annual reports.  I
.

Practical Approach, thanks for the info in the bold, is that for all the tribes?

Good Question.  The NWIFC report is only for westside treaty tribes. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Rainier10 on December 08, 2021, 05:16:47 PM
And there at least 20 tribes that participate in reporting IIRC
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 09, 2021, 08:58:34 AM
I have been hearing that story since the late 1990's.  The story always has loggers watching, native hunters, slaughter, and either a large number of elk or the whole herd.  Sometimes they don't even take the meat in some of the scenarios. Ceremonial and Subsistence harvest is reported annually.  Harvest is tracked it can be found on the NWIFC website and in the WDFW annual reports.  I
Yes, these ceremonial harvests arenít new, been going on forever, certainly before the late 90ís.   Anyone look up the numbers?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Practical Approach on December 09, 2021, 09:14:15 AM
I have been hearing that story since the late 1990's.  The story always has loggers watching, native hunters, slaughter, and either a large number of elk or the whole herd.  Sometimes they don't even take the meat in some of the scenarios. Ceremonial and Subsistence harvest is reported annually.  Harvest is tracked it can be found on the NWIFC website and in the WDFW annual reports.  I
Yes, these ceremonial harvests arenít new, been going on forever, certainly before the late 90ís.   Anyone look up the numbers?
You will not be able to look up 2021 harvest until 2022.  There are still hunting seasons that are open for both state and tribal hunters.  It takes a few months to collect the data and compile the report.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Bullkllr on December 09, 2021, 09:20:30 AM
I have been hearing that story since the late 1990's.  The story always has loggers watching, native hunters, slaughter, and either a large number of elk or the whole herd.  Sometimes they don't even take the meat in some of the scenarios. Ceremonial and Subsistence harvest is reported annually.  Harvest is tracked it can be found on the NWIFC website and in the WDFW annual reports.  I
Yes, these ceremonial harvests arenít new, been going on forever, certainly before the late 90ís.   Anyone look up the numbers?

I don't think the reports are on the WDFW website anymore (iirc they used to be); at least I could not find them.
Here is a link to the NWIFC reports from 2020 back to 1997:https://nwifc.org/publications/big-game-harvest-reports/ (https://nwifc.org/publications/big-game-harvest-reports/)
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: meatwhack on December 09, 2021, 09:58:55 AM
Thatís interesting to see what units most of the bucks and bulls are shot in.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: BA Mongor on December 10, 2021, 05:59:54 AM
Interesting to see how many Tribal Bulls are taken out of Packwood.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 10, 2021, 06:21:03 AM
For some reason I just donít trust those numbers
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Bowhunter3 on December 10, 2021, 06:24:29 AM
For some reason I just donít trust those numbers
many reasons not to. Just as I donít trust wdfw numbers either lol I know people on both sides that donít report, or report false gmu.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: hunter399 on December 10, 2021, 06:32:43 AM
For some reason I just donít trust those numbers
many reasons not to. Just as I donít trust wdfw numbers either lol I know people on both sides that donít report, or report false gmu.
Well there is very good reasons not to report or to report false gmu.
WDFW base almost all the numbers on reports.
They do very little deer or Elk counts on the ground or by trail cam,they do all these buck to Doe ratio, and crunch numbers from there desk,and you can see the results of these fine management skills ,year after year.
Some people see reporting harvest ,as hunters loading oppertunitty.
And I'm not even talking about native ,of coarse there not reporting.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 10, 2021, 06:54:56 AM
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 06:59:51 AM
Have to agree, looking at the Nooksack hunting regs for example their bag limit for Elk/Deer are 4 total with a season that runs 9/1 through 2/28. That take doesnít include ceremonial or damage control hunts.
For some reason I just donít trust those numbers
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 07:00:41 AM
 :yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: hunter399 on December 10, 2021, 07:12:17 AM
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: HUNTIN4SIX on December 10, 2021, 07:16:56 AM
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.
Always notice in Montana reservations you donít even see a mangy coyote.  Management varies vastly be tribe.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 10, 2021, 07:26:20 AM
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Magnum_Willys on December 10, 2021, 08:10:33 AM
The 2020 report says 74 elk taken in Nooksack with 3/4 ths of those taken by tribal members.   That seems believeable.   Not sure if that includes ceremonial and damage control?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Practical Approach on December 10, 2021, 08:28:09 AM
The 2020 report says 74 elk taken in Nooksack with 3/4 ths of those taken by tribal members.   That seems believeable.   Not sure if that includes ceremonial and damage control?
The NWIFC report includes ceremonial and subsistence harvest.  Damage hunts occur via state sanctioned hunts due to landowner complaints and verified damage after nonlethal measures have first been attempted.  There if very little if any tribal participation that I am aware of in damage hunts.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Whitefoot on December 10, 2021, 08:49:21 AM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: h20hunter on December 10, 2021, 08:58:41 AM
2nd time you have said it and the reply is the same. Threads evolve, change, go different routes. I don't see the issue.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on December 10, 2021, 09:23:13 AM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.
The natives don't like it when the truth is out there don't want anyone to know how much they are actually killing! Check out some of their facebook sites  :bash:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 09:28:36 AM
And for some reason they forget about the part with the Guys using rifles in an Archery area.
2nd time you have said it and the reply is the same. Threads evolve, change, go different routes. I don't see the issue.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: meatwhack on December 10, 2021, 09:29:59 AM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

Give us your thoughts on road access like the OP had questioned if youíd like to try to keep it in the original topic.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: buckfvr on December 10, 2021, 09:47:41 AM

[/quote]
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.
[/quote]

And no doubt you have seen this and heard this many times, even though I and several others spend a tremendous amount of time in 101 and have never witnessed any of this in over 25 years spent in 3 seasons in 101.   :chuckle:
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Platensek-po on December 10, 2021, 11:27:57 AM
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Platensek-po on December 10, 2021, 11:31:44 AM
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.

https://www.seashepherd.org.uk/news-and-commentary/news/makah-whale-hunt-defeated.html
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on December 10, 2021, 11:38:19 AM

If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.
[/quote]

And no doubt you have seen this and heard this many times, even though I and several others spend a tremendous amount of time in 101 and have never witnessed any of this in over 25 years spent in 3 seasons in 101.   :chuckle:
[/quote]

I seen a Colville tribe member poach off private ground, he showed me his tribal card and said he could, I said no its private land lol. (yes I reported it)

Every group of people has bad apples, but the Colville's seem pretty dang good, they run a great biology program and have much better hunting on the rez than off, I rarely see them in 101.

I've certainly never seen them go on a killing spree...
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Special T on December 10, 2021, 11:55:16 AM
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.

I find these discussions troubling. Sportsmen are frustrated  at the way fish and game is being managed. This from a political stand point of anti consumptive users infecting the Commission some department staff, and certainly those legislators  in the Nat Resource Senate comittie.

Tribes should be our natural ally fighting these  preservationist groups. I really appreciate the Swinomish bio standing up for sportsmen. He stood with the Washington Waterfowl Association  to fight off a no shooting zone in Drayton Harbor near Blaine, and chastised Koontz and Smith with the king of force sportsmen have been unable to muster. I hope other Tribes follow his lead in building that natural bond so that we can fight the groups.

As sportsmen we need to become more educated, organize, and quit acting like crabs in a bucket pulling everyone down. If you have time to bitch on here you have time to write the Commission, you legislator, or listen to the many web meetings that can be found online.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: NRA4LIFE on December 10, 2021, 12:09:21 PM
Well said.  When the Makah took the one, yes one whale there was such a fuss about it. Why should anyone have given a crap?  I sure didn't.  Now if they'd only fix the boat launch...
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: hunter399 on December 10, 2021, 12:14:22 PM

If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

And no doubt you have seen this and heard this many times, even though I and several others spend a tremendous amount of time in 101 and have never witnessed any of this in over 25 years spent in 3 seasons in 101.   :chuckle:
[/quote]

I seen a Colville tribe member poach off private ground, he showed me his tribal card and said he could, I said no its private land lol. (yes I reported it)

Every group of people has bad apples, but the Colville's seem pretty dang good, they run a great biology program and have much better hunting on the rez than off, I rarely see them in 101.

I've certainly never seen them go on a killing spree...
[/quote]
No I agree I haven't seen a killing spree.
And I have no problem with there rights on the north half or reservation.
All I was pointing out is ,it doesn't matter if it's the east,West,south,North, all tribes have some rights somewhere,season,limits, that are beyond our rights.
And as far as I've never seen this ,or ya right that never happens in 101 ,let me put it this way. If you had four months to shoot any deer you want ,would you wait and do it with a bunch of white people out there for the season,or would you wait until things calm down a bit.
Trust me ,I'm friends with a few people and seen some pics here or there,choose to believe what you want ,It happens,will continue to happen,nothing we do will change that. And I'm ok with that.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: trophyhunt on December 10, 2021, 12:15:40 PM
Well said.  When the Makah took the one, yes one whale there was such a fuss about it. Why should anyone have given a crap?  I sure didn't.  Now if they'd only fix the boat launch...
And build a hotel, rv resort (better one), more fish cleaning stations, shoot some sea lions.... They could really turn that place into a nice resort, get away.  $$$$$
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Special T on December 10, 2021, 12:17:11 PM
Well said.  When the Makah took the one, yes one whale there was such a fuss about it. Why should anyone have given a crap?  I sure didn't.  Now if they'd only fix the boat launch...

Anyone want to guess an organization that supported the Makah?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Whitefoot on December 10, 2021, 12:31:54 PM
And for some reason they forget about the part with the Guys using rifles in an Archery area.
2nd time you have said it and the reply is the same. Threads evolve, change, go different routes. I don't see the issue.
Forgot?  I don't think anyone forgot.   What law states there's bow, muzzle, and modern?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Whitefoot on December 10, 2021, 12:39:32 PM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

Give us your thoughts on road access like the OP had questioned if youíd like to try to keep it in the original topic.
The state has a road system and laws setup on ceded land.   Tribes are sovereign meaning that they're a country with in a country. State trying to regulate or enforce our laws normally has to be turned over to the tribe.   Tribes have different laws to these roads and seasons.  The green dot an unauthorized roads are state laws.  Same goes with units and all the other seasons.  We don't follow the same laws the state has set.   Ceded land follows almost the same format as the reservation. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Rainier10 on December 10, 2021, 12:44:00 PM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

Give us your thoughts on road access like the OP had questioned if youíd like to try to keep it in the original topic.
The state has a road system and laws setup on ceded land.   Tribes are sovereign meaning that they're a country with in a country. State trying to regulate or enforce our laws normally has to be turned over to the tribe.   Tribes have different laws to these roads and seasons.  The green dot an unauthorized roads are state laws.  Same goes with units and all the other seasons.  We don't follow the same laws the state has set.   Ceded land follows almost the same format as the reservation.
Thanks for the clarification.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: hunter399 on December 10, 2021, 12:45:44 PM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

Give us your thoughts on road access like the OP had questioned if youíd like to try to keep it in the original topic.
The state has a road system and laws setup on ceded land.   Tribes are sovereign meaning that they're a country with in a country. State trying to regulate or enforce our laws normally has to be turned over to the tribe.   Tribes have different laws to these roads and seasons.  The green dot an unauthorized roads are state laws.  Same goes with units and all the other seasons.  We don't follow the same laws the state has set.   Ceded land follows almost the same format as the reservation.
I Agree.
The "story" with the north half is it was the reservation ,that the feds took back at a later date ,and the tribe retained hunting rights as ceded lands ,or something like that.
You can Google it ,but I think that's the short story anyway.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Whitefoot on December 10, 2021, 12:48:44 PM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

Give us your thoughts on road access like the OP had questioned if youíd like to try to keep it in the original topic.
The state has a road system and laws setup on ceded land.   Tribes are sovereign meaning that they're a country with in a country. State trying to regulate or enforce our laws normally has to be turned over to the tribe.   Tribes have different laws to these roads and seasons.  The green dot an unauthorized roads are state laws.  Same goes with units and all the other seasons.  We don't follow the same laws the state has set.   Ceded land follows almost the same format as the reservation.
I Agree.
The "story" with the north half is it was the reservation ,that the feds took back at a later date ,and the tribe retained hunting rights as ceded lands ,or something like that.
You can Google it ,but I think that's the short story anyway.
Correct!  Tract C, and D were miss managed and latter turned back into the closed area of the reservation.   Ceded is the part that was originally reservation but stevens took it away and made it ceded but same rights as the reservation right before the signing of the treaty.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: meatwhack on December 10, 2021, 12:51:04 PM
Thanks for the info. I had no idea that ceded lands carried other regulations other than just hunting. Does this have any effect on road travel and traffic type violations or not?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: hunter399 on December 10, 2021, 12:54:07 PM
I thought this thread was about road access?   
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

Give us your thoughts on road access like the OP had questioned if youíd like to try to keep it in the original topic.
The state has a road system and laws setup on ceded land.   Tribes are sovereign meaning that they're a country with in a country. State trying to regulate or enforce our laws normally has to be turned over to the tribe.   Tribes have different laws to these roads and seasons.  The green dot an unauthorized roads are state laws.  Same goes with units and all the other seasons.  We don't follow the same laws the state has set.   Ceded land follows almost the same format as the reservation.
I Agree.
The "story" with the north half is it was the reservation ,that the feds took back at a later date ,and the tribe retained hunting rights as ceded lands ,or something like that.
You can Google it ,but I think that's the short story anyway.
Correct!  Tract C, and D were miss managed and latter turned back into the closed area of the reservation.   Ceded is the part that was originally reservation but stevens took it away and made it ceded but same rights as the reservation right before the signing of the treaty.
Thanks ,I try to stay up on history of the tribes and such.
It's crazy the things that happen in the past.
Even with ceded rights,I try to respect it .
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Whitefoot on December 10, 2021, 12:55:45 PM
Thanks for the info. I had no idea that ceded lands carried other regulations other than just hunting. Does this have any effect on road travel and traffic type violations or not?
On ceded land still can get speeding tickets and other violations.  Buying cars and homes normally aren't taxable.  Anytime a state police pull over an enrolled member with fish or wildlife normally will call state fish and wildlife and if no suspended license or warrants is let go. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 02:29:01 PM
Nobody said Tribes should stop Hunting, As far as as the lawsuit being filed by a group of racists doesnít fly either, These groups will do anything and everything to stop the killing of Whales no matter who is doing it or wants to do it.
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 03:07:36 PM
Part of his comment was about guys driving in with guns while he was archery hunting yet you only seem to want to bring up the part of people driving on a closed road. No law states it, that was just part of his frustration.
And for some reason they forget about the part with the Guys using rifles in an Archery area.
2nd time you have said it and the reply is the same. Threads evolve, change, go different routes. I don't see the issue.
Forgot?  I don't think anyone forgot.   What law states there's bow, muzzle, and modern?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Meathunter06 on December 10, 2021, 03:31:03 PM
Part of his comment was about guys driving in with guns while he was archery hunting yet you only seem to want to bring up the part of people driving on a closed road. No law states it, that was just part of his frustration.
And for some reason they forget about the part with the Guys using rifles in an Archery area.
2nd time you have said it and the reply is the same. Threads evolve, change, go different routes. I don't see the issue.
Forgot?  I don't think anyone forgot.   What law states there's bow, muzzle, and modern?
And also hunting on the Clockum reserve
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Platensek-po on December 10, 2021, 03:32:26 PM
Nobody said Tribes should stop Hunting, As far as as the lawsuit being filed by a group of racists doesnít fly either, These groups will do anything and everything to stop the killing of Whales no matter who is doing it or wants to do it.
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.

Lolololol you obviously havenít seen the comments from the head of sea shepherd then. Saying that they are bloodthirsty savages and etc. Attacking treaty rights. Plenty on here who say it shouldnít be a ďrightĒ anymore and want to reneg treaties and rights in them. If you want to stand with captain Paul Watson the by all means go ahead. Interesting how much money and effort they are spending to stop the makahs from harvesting 2 whales over 5 yrs but are silent about European countries harvesting whales every year.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: h20hunter on December 10, 2021, 03:35:14 PM
I'm going on record...i support the Makah taking two whales in 5 years. Hand powered vessel. Traditional gear, safety boats under power nearby, harpoon, float and line.  Old school, traditional man vs beast.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: CP on December 10, 2021, 03:48:36 PM
I'm going on record...i support the Makah taking two whales in 5 years. Hand powered vessel. Traditional gear, safety boats under power nearby, harpoon, float and line.  Old school, traditional man vs beast.

If they need a non-tribal harpoon man, sign me up!  I'll work for a hunk of Muktuk.

Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Stein on December 10, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
I'm going on record...i support the Makah taking two whales in 5 years. Hand powered vessel. Traditional gear, safety boats under power nearby, harpoon, float and line.  Old school, traditional man vs beast.

I remember seeing them on the news years back, doing just that.  It was cool to watch them out there paddling after a whale.

I support them killing as many seals as they want with any means at their disposal.  I'll supply a boat and fuel.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Duckslayer89 on December 10, 2021, 04:35:41 PM
I'm going on record...i support the Makah taking two whales in 5 years. Hand powered vessel. Traditional gear, safety boats under power nearby, harpoon, float and line.  Old school, traditional man vs beast.

I would like to get in on that. Fishing up in Alaska long lining I could have jumped on the backs of so many whales. Always wanted to try to take one down. I asked a native guy to take me seal hunting in Yakutat. He told me ďyouíre to whiteĒ Iíll get in trouble... 😂 we all laughed. They had 7 otters and 3 seals at the dock one day. Just one guy. All head shots out of his boat. 
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 05:10:50 PM
Like I said these groups will say and do anything to stop the killing of Whales period. Has Green peace not attacked vessels who were attempting to harpoon Whales. Pretty sure the Sea Shepherd would resort to that as well. Even though they claim their non violent. I know you would like to paint me a racist because I disagree with you. Sorry not working.
Nobody said Tribes should stop Hunting, As far as as the lawsuit being filed by a group of racists doesnít fly either, These groups will do anything and everything to stop the killing of Whales no matter who is doing it or wants to do it.
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.

Lolololol you obviously havenít seen the comments from the head of sea shepherd then. Saying that they are bloodthirsty savages and etc. Attacking treaty rights. Plenty on here who say it shouldnít be a ďrightĒ anymore and want to reneg treaties and rights in them. If you want to stand with captain Paul Watson the by all means go ahead. Interesting how much money and effort they are spending to stop the makahs from harvesting 2 whales over 5 yrs but are silent about European countries harvesting whales every year.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Buzzsaw461 on December 10, 2021, 05:37:01 PM
Do you know that Paul Watson threatened to sink a fleet of ships participating in an re-enactment of the 500 year anniversary of Columbus discovery of America if the participants didnít sign an apology letter to the American Indians.
Nobody said Tribes should stop Hunting, As far as as the lawsuit being filed by a group of racists doesnít fly either, These groups will do anything and everything to stop the killing of Whales no matter who is doing it or wants to do it.
:yeah:
Should just hand the wildlife management over to the tribes. 🍿
If you can't beat ,then join them I suppose.
Even here in the northeast it's about the same 4 or 5 deer a year,Sept 1 -jan 1 Hunting season,they have the reservation + what they call the north half ,which is gmu 101 ,they mainly shoot mule deer antlerless,spikes you name it. When they pull up on a small herd of mule deer,and let's say there are two of them ,they can shoot the entire 10 deer herd.
And some do.
Then the next year they wonder where all the deer went.
It's freaking funny as all get out.

I figure at least then there might be predator management, probably be the same amount of tribal harvest as there is already. We will still have the same small dismal little seasons we get to go, with a handful of special permit tags.

But like you said canít beat them join them. Then when we open up a wolf season the Seattle folks wonít/canít scream about it because the almighty tribes authorized it.

You would think so but look at the Makahs. Canít hunt whales cause of the environmental groups suing them over and over. Even tho the whales are over populated right now and the tribe wants to take 2 whales over 5 years. They waited while the numbers are down and now canít hunt them cause they exercise their treaty rights during that time. Keep that in mind when you say the tribes should stop hunting or fishing. The lawsuit by sea shepherd and other groups is full of racist tropes, many of which are repeated here, and BS ďscienceĒ. Kinda like the spring bear hunt issue. Canít imagine having ancestors sign a treaty giving up about half the land on the OP to have the right to hunt and fish, only to have those rights taken away by environmental groups who despise you.

Lolololol you obviously havenít seen the comments from the head of sea shepherd then. Saying that they are bloodthirsty savages and etc. Attacking treaty rights. Plenty on here who say it shouldnít be a ďrightĒ anymore and want to reneg treaties and rights in them. If you want to stand with captain Paul Watson the by all means go ahead. Interesting how much money and effort they are spending to stop the makahs from harvesting 2 whales over 5 yrs but are silent about European countries harvesting whales every year.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Tbar on December 10, 2021, 06:17:41 PM
I'm going on record...i support the Makah taking two whales in 5 years. Hand powered vessel. Traditional gear, safety boats under power nearby, harpoon, float and line.  Old school, traditional man vs beast.
Wasn't this the preferred approach? Does it violate IWC humane take standards? Do you not support a humane harvest to revive a reserved right?
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: h20hunter on December 10, 2021, 06:28:20 PM
I support humane harvest AND would support the taking as mentioned.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: KFhunter on December 10, 2021, 06:28:28 PM


Would you support the Makah using speed boats, pneumatic spear cannons and have no limits on whales?

Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: h20hunter on December 10, 2021, 06:33:33 PM
No on the unlimited harvest.  Yes if I get to go, help butcher and eat. I've killed hogs from a chopper so.....  :dunno:.
Title: Re: Question on access for native americans
Post by: Stein on December 10, 2021, 07:23:21 PM
I hope we're not proposing all going old school.  I don't own a blunderbuss or one of those funny hats with the buckle in it.



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