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Author Topic: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting  (Read 7166 times)

Offline CedarPants

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2013, 09:42:01 PM »
I liked Ware's answer to "will there be a hunting season in Washington for wolves?"  He was matter of fact, saying yes and he isn't sure why there wouldn't be as they are mandated by the legislature to provide hunting opportunities.

I didn't like his answer to "will Washington keep wolves protected statewide until they've dispersed to all management zones even if their numbers continue growing in northeastern Washington?"  He was very of matter of fact, stating yes and reitterating that the wolf management plan very clearly states they will not be de-listed until all zones are populated with the minimum target numbers of breeding pairs - and went on to state that realisitically, northeast Washington is most likely going to be above target objectives until the rest of the state populates.

Most likely?  I think we're already there Dave.

To his credit, he did touch on the fact that the plan has contingencies written into it to allow for lethal wolf removal if cattle/ungulate interaction becomes an issue.  He did also mention translocation as a realistic solution.

I just don't get why they go to great measure to manage ungulates at the GMU level, but for wolves they view it as just 1 big management territory (the entire state). 
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Offline dreamunelk

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2013, 09:59:52 PM »

I just don't get why they go to great measure to manage ungulates at the GMU level, but for wolves they view it as just 1 big management territory (the entire state).

Better to manage at the state level.  If managed at GMU level than the argument could be made that we have to have several packs per GMU. 
Also most predators are dispersers.  Cougars and wolves travel hundreds of miles to establish new territories.  Ungulates don't really travel that much.  They will generally live their lives in pretty close to the same area.  They do disperse but, you can't say they will were with wolves you can say that young will disperse.

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2013, 10:09:11 PM »

I just don't get why they go to great measure to manage ungulates at the GMU level, but for wolves they view it as just 1 big management territory (the entire state).

Ungulates don't really travel that much.  They will generally live their lives in pretty close to the same area. 
[/b]

For example, the Blue Mountain elk herds stay almost exclusively within the GMU boundaries.  They winter there, they calve there, and they summer there.

This was directly from Paul Wik, who helped with much of the elk research in the Blues.
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Offline CedarPants

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2013, 10:16:59 PM »
I see your point and do agree.  Nobody wants to see X number of wolves required per GMU. 

I guess I'm more just hung up on why they are so hung up on telling everyone in NE WA that we'll have to just deal with it until wolves are everywhere in the state. 
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2013, 10:50:10 PM »
I see your point and do agree.  Nobody wants to see X number of wolves required per GMU. 

I guess I'm more just hung up on why they are so hung up on telling everyone in NE WA that we'll have to just deal with it until wolves are everywhere in the state.

I agree, NE Washington is being fed to the wolves no if, ands, or buts. What really riled me is when they came to Colville and told us that if herds decline they will take there sweet time studying the herds before they take any management action on wolves.

Unfortunately I was busy all day and this evening and forgot about this meeting.  :bash:
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Offline Gringo31

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2013, 06:06:16 AM »
tag
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Offline CedarPants

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2013, 06:36:38 AM »
I see your point and do agree.  Nobody wants to see X number of wolves required per GMU. 

I guess I'm more just hung up on why they are so hung up on telling everyone in NE WA that we'll have to just deal with it until wolves are everywhere in the state.

I agree, NE Washington is being fed to the wolves no if, ands, or buts. What really riled me is when they came to Colville and told us that if herds decline they will take there sweet time studying the herds before they take any management action on wolves.

Unfortunately I was busy all day and this evening and forgot about this meeting.  :bash:

They touched on that as well, and the Idaho and Montana speakers called out and reiterated several times that people, cougars, weather, and bears can and do have greater impact on herds than wolves (they used the Lolo and Bitterroot as their examples).  They seemed to agree that wolves do in fact have an impact but did their best to make it sound minimal.

 Idaho also said (when asked) that they would be raisin license fees to make up for lost tag sales
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Offline bearpaw

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2013, 07:56:07 AM »
I see your point and do agree.  Nobody wants to see X number of wolves required per GMU. 

I guess I'm more just hung up on why they are so hung up on telling everyone in NE WA that we'll have to just deal with it until wolves are everywhere in the state.

I agree, NE Washington is being fed to the wolves no if, ands, or buts. What really riled me is when they came to Colville and told us that if herds decline they will take there sweet time studying the herds before they take any management action on wolves.

Unfortunately I was busy all day and this evening and forgot about this meeting.  :bash:

They touched on that as well, and the Idaho and Montana speakers called out and reiterated several times that people, cougars, weather, and bears can and do have greater impact on herds than wolves (they used the Lolo and Bitterroot as their examples).  They seemed to agree that wolves do in fact have an impact but did their best to make it sound minimal.

 Idaho also said (when asked) that they would be raisin license fees to make up for lost tag sales

Glad I missed it, sounds like another dog and pony show. These F&G people will do anything to protect wolves. I agree that cougar, bear, and weather definitely impact herds, but wolves are the unbalancing factor that took many herds in Idaho/Montana to such ridiculously low levels. Where there are no wolves in Idaho the herds remain stable.

Idaho ought to ask Montana how that worked out to raise license fees! Hunters will literally be footing the bill for wolves everywhere! :bash:
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Offline pianoman9701

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2013, 08:03:03 AM »
I'd like to see a law passed in WA the restricts F&W's ability to raise tag fees to cover decreased purchases due to wolf problems and and/or increased expenses due to depredation and management. I believe we've seen nothing yet compared to what's coming and it's all going to increase the cost of hunting while the wolf watchers continue to pay for nothing.
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2013, 09:10:04 AM »
I see your point and do agree.  Nobody wants to see X number of wolves required per GMU. 

I guess I'm more just hung up on why they are so hung up on telling everyone in NE WA that we'll have to just deal with it until wolves are everywhere in the state.

I agree, NE Washington is being fed to the wolves no if, ands, or buts. What really riled me is when they came to Colville and told us that if herds decline they will take there sweet time studying the herds before they take any management action on wolves.

Unfortunately I was busy all day and this evening and forgot about this meeting.  :bash:

They touched on that as well, and the Idaho and Montana speakers called out and reiterated several times that people, cougars, weather, and bears can and do have greater impact on herds than wolves (they used the Lolo and Bitterroot as their examples).  They seemed to agree that wolves do in fact have an impact but did their best to make it sound minimal.

 Idaho also said (when asked) that they would be raisin license fees to make up for lost tag sales

Glad I missed it, sounds like another dog and pony show. These F&G people will do anything to protect wolves. I agree that cougar, bear, and weather definitely impact herds, but wolves are the unbalancing factor that took many herds in Idaho/Montana to such ridiculously low levels. Where there are no wolves in Idaho the herds remain stable.

Idaho ought to ask Montana how that worked out to raise license fees! Hunters will literally be footing the bill for wolves everywhere! :bash:

My guess is all of WA will get the same management as the Methow Valley. Wolves will decimated the game herds and WDFW will run to the local newspaper at the end of each season and say for the amount of hunters, the hunting was great. This will happen until there is nothing left to hunt. Remember the Lolo elk herd, 14 years later IDFG finally admitted, that yes, wolves were the problem.

It won't take 14 years for WA to hit bottom,  Same BS just a different state, Welcome to WDF&Wolves

Offline asl20bball

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2013, 01:24:25 PM »
Bearpaw, you can watch it online (recorded)l is my understanding
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Offline Styles

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2013, 11:47:02 PM »
I wish I could have listened to the whole "live stream" of the meeting!! Our "experts" here in Wa are a joke at best!! Our Big Game Management program is an ultimate fail and they are stealing hunters and fishermans money!!
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #87 on: July 21, 2013, 12:04:40 AM »
Is there a stipulation in the Pittman-Robertson Act regarding what that money can be used on?

Offline bearpaw

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #88 on: July 21, 2013, 12:07:56 AM »
I wish I could have listened to the whole "live stream" of the meeting!! Our "experts" here in Wa are a joke at best!! Our Big Game Management program is an ultimate fail and they are stealing hunters and fishermans money!!

I agree they are failing sportsmen, Fish & Wildlife needs split up, We need two agencies that each find their own funding:

Washington Dept of Fish & Game
Washington Dept of Non-Game

I am tired of sportsman's dollars being used to propagate wolves, turtles, bugs, and other nonsense.
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Offline Duckhunter14

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #89 on: July 21, 2013, 09:24:44 AM »
As far as a hunting season on Wolves; I read on the Washington Fish and Game website that they have to have '15 Established' breeding pairs before they will decide to explore the options of a regulated hunting season. But who knows what their idea of a confirmed breeding pair is? Knowing this state they probably need to see them in the act to deem that "Confirmation." From the BLM and F&S guys I've talked to, the Fish and Game has a flood of calls and emails coming in of wolf sightings all over the eastside of the mountains and they're not particularly excited about it either. Most of them are hunters too! Unfortunately the reintroduction of these wolves into the state has been motivated by the people who don't put their money where their mouth is year in and year out like sportsmen do every year. If we want to see what happens when a wolf population is left to run rampant on an otherwise healthy big game population, with no hunting season- look at the deer, moose and elk herds in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. Hopefully we can learn from the mistakes these states made and manage the wolf population before it takes away what we have worked so hard to keep healthy; our big game populations. In my opinion Washington state does not have the resources to support a growing wolf population. I think as a collective, hunters know what to do when they see a wolf in the field. At least every person I've ever talked to in WY, ID, or MT did. S.S.S. I pray this state has the backbone to stand firm in the face of political pressure and manage these wolves aggressively, before it's too late...
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Offline buckfvr

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2013, 09:44:00 AM »
I think your prayer will be answered............ :dunno:

Offline Sitka_Blacktail

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2013, 09:56:54 AM »
As I've said before, habitat and timber companies leasing or charging for access and limiting access will affect more people's hunting opportunities than wolves ever will.

I've taken whitetails each of the years since I started hunting in NE Washington among "all those wolves". And the reason I started hunting there (I live on the coast) is because of loss of access in the areas I grew up hunting, not to mention habitat changes from changes in logging.

Wolves may affect the odds of my success slightly, but they don't affect my access to even go hunting.
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Offline AspenBud

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2013, 10:11:52 AM »
As I've said before, habitat and timber companies leasing or charging for access and limiting access will affect more people's hunting opportunities than wolves ever will.

I've taken whitetails each of the years since I started hunting in NE Washington among "all those wolves". And the reason I started hunting there (I live on the coast) is because of loss of access in the areas I grew up hunting, not to mention habitat changes from changes in logging.

Wolves may affect the odds of my success slightly, but they don't affect my access to even go hunting.

I think it's all linked.

Less access to good hunting grounds leads to fewer hunters (and that's a bigger problem in general) which leads to fewer people worrying about wolves and big game which leads to less access to good hunting...repeat cycle...

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2013, 10:49:03 AM »
No doubt hunters need access, I completely agree with that.  :tup:

But some of you guys do not have a clue what is going on with predators in the NE. So that some of you understand the predator situation in NE WA, wolves have not really affected herd numbers in most areas yet. It's the record numbers of cougar, coyotes, and bear that have been impacting our herds the most in the NE. As the WDFW continues to greatly limit predator hunting and with the addition of wolves we will see a greater decline in wildlife in the future especially after we have another hard winter and we are put into a deeper predator pit than what we are already in. Once the wolf numbers continue to increase unchecked due to WDFW wolf management policies the impacts will be felt more and more.

Idaho has tried to offset predator impacts by creating two bear and two cougar hunting zones, but wolf predation has replaced the cougar and bear which have been removed in most areas and herds have continued to decline even during years of mild or average winters. There is no way you can sugar coat what has happened in the ID/MT/WY areas with the most wolves, the declining herd numbers tell the story. As wolves continue to increase in NE WA that is what is in store for our herds in the future.

Unlike a few incapable of looking ahead, I would like to resolve the problem before it becomes a problem in NE WA. If WDFW would simply manage wolves by limiting pack size and the number of packs, NE WA could support a modest number of wolves without many severe impacts, it's the insanity of unregulated wolves that will do to NE WA exactly what was done to the LOLO, Bitteroot, Yellowstone, Payette, Thoroughfare, and many other herds if wolves are left unchecked.

The results can already be seen in GMU 105 Kelly Hill (the Wedge). Herds are down in large portions of this unit and as a result the wolves were forced to eat McIrvin's cattle.  :twocents:
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2013, 12:17:03 PM »
BearPaw--Unlike a few incapable of looking ahead, I would like to resolve the problem before it becomes a problem in NE WA. If WDFW would simply manage wolves by limiting pack size and the number of packs, NE WA could support a modest number of wolves without many severe impacts, it's the insanity of unregulated wolves that will do to NE WA exactly what was done to the LOLO, Bitteroot, Yellowstone, Payette, Thoroughfare, and many other herds if wolves are left unchecked.

The results can already be seen in GMU 105 Kelly Hill (the Wedge). Herds are down in large portions of this unit and as a result the wolves were forced to eat McIrvin's cattle.---

IF is a word that WDFW enjoy. If the stupid hunters and rural people don't come together we will be able to accomplish our mission. We here at WDFW have already released enough wolves with of cource the USFWS's help, that we can now translocate within the state.  Problem wolves from one area will go to a new area just as happened in MT, WY and Idaho.

So how stupid are the people in WA?

Just like Idaho and MT, hunters and rural people need to come together and remove those at the top and work their way down, starting with Anderson who is just another nodding head!



 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 01:00:34 PM by wolfbait »

Offline Buckblaster

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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2013, 12:23:47 PM »
Near the end of the cast, Dave said it was likely that translocation would happen since they need confirmed packs south of I-90.  He also mentioned before that, the St. Helens elk herd is beyond carrying capacity.  Its easy to see what they are thinking.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 03:02:59 PM by Buckblaster »
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2013, 01:55:05 PM »
Near the end of the cast, Dave said it was likely that translocation would happen since they need confirmed packs south of I-90.  He also mentioned before that, the St. Helens elk herd is beyond carrying capacity.  Its easy to see what they might be thinking.
Its been their agenda from the get go.
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2013, 02:56:11 PM »
regardless of how you feel about wolves you should be able to see the creep. Many have seen their end goal, and the WDFW slowly adjusts their statements to reflect it. Funny how some many people thought that many of us  :tinfoil: because of our thoughts and statements about how disingenuous the WDFW has been...
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2013, 03:03:55 PM »
Many have seen their end goal, and the WDFW slowly adjusts their statements to reflect it.
Adjusts their statements? They have been completely up front about it from the beginning! :chuckle:
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Re: Experts Meet To Discuss Wolves Effect On Hunting
« Reply #99 on: July 25, 2013, 03:07:45 PM »
I would say that the message I have heard has not changed, however their verbage and nuances have.  :twocents:
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