Of Roosevelt Elk, Bacteria, Hooves and Herbicides

[pianoman9701]

I thought we were talking about Hoof disease? 

[Tbar]

It's all relative.

[idahohuntr]

I thought we were talking about Hoof disease? 

Several members like to point out all of these groups and experts that also believe hoof rot is caused by herbicides...and I'm merely pointing out that I think hunters are being played as pawns to serve the interests of more radical environmental groups and that they may not actually have the best information and certainly may not be providing the most unbiased reviews of the herbicide/hoof rot issue.  Now...I am absolutely not above working with other groups where there is a common goal/interest even if we disagree on other issues.  What I am most interested in though is if hunters are willing to work with Mr. Ferris group to reduce herbicide use to protect elk (which I am not sure such evidence exists, but lets pretend that is the case), is Cascadia Wildlands willing to support hunters and wdfw in lethal wolf removal if there is evidence wolves are causing declines of elk herds across WA state?

[t6]

Idaho..... your posts are confusing and seem to be more about discreding people than anything else.  One only needs to look at your past posts to see your bias towards wolves.  Many times you have referred to other members as Kool-Aid drinkers, idiots, morons, ect.    You bash in one post and agree in others when you oppose another point of view. 

What's your agenda? 

[bobferris]

I agree that this is getting off topic, but I will offer this response:  I am a professional wildlife biologist who has been working in the field for more than 30 years, the last twenty of which have been spent at non-profits focusing on biodiversity conservation and restoration.  There is no nefarious plot here and if you look at any of the positions that I have taken or campaigns that I have pursued they all start and finish with science. My opposition to suction dredge mining in salmon waters, for instance, comports with the positions offered up by the American Fisheries Society and the Xerces Society.  Our request to WDFW that they require that non-lethal measures (i.e, human presence, removal of bone piles, fladry, etc.) be tried before employing lethal measures on a state-listed endangered species is getting the agency to adhere to the intent of the law.   These positions are all driven by biological/ecological rationale or legal reasons.  I am sure that many of you have caught inklings of these sorts of arguments from certain agency or university biologists who then politely listen to you telling them they are wrong--the only difference here is that I am not a public servant and therefore not required to nod my head when I hear some that does not agree with experience or the literature. 

And as to me trying to dis-empower the hunting and angling community or split it a part, that is ludicrous as I am a member of the hunting and angling community.  A little research on my history which is very much out in the public record will show that I have long history of trying to unite not separate elements of the conservation and environment communities (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19960818&id=OwBRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=NesDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6905,4837450 http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1996-06-23/sports/9606220227_1_national-audubon-society-natural-resource-summit-ducks and http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=102200&ID=s869391.

[grundy53]

Bob Ferris would you like to see Wolf reintroduction into Western Washington?  A simple yes/no answer will suffice.

Perhaps folks should go over to the wolf thread and read BoB Ferris (Executive Director of Cascadia Wildlands) news release from Cascadia Wildlands where they are petitioning to basically eliminate lethal removal of wolves in Washington State even for livestock depredation...and then maybe those hunters should ask themselves if Mr. Ferris is really interested in protecting elk or whether he is more interested in advancing an environmental agenda that includes limiting various land management activities like logging, herbicide use, and also ask if his vision of wolf advocacy fits with what hunters think is best for managing hoof rot.

I bring this up because while I believe there is merit in reducing herbicide use in general, I think hunters are being played as pawns in a larger chess game by environmental groups with far more radical agendas.  Perhaps I am wrong though, but I am more interested to hear Mr. Ferris' take on limiting WDFW's ability to use lethal removal for wolves.  Mr. Ferris, if we see reductions in elk and deer populations in SW Washington or other areas of washington would you support lethal removal of wolves?

I agree. You got to ask yourself if you really want to work with a group like this. Sure, they seem to have the same goal as us on THIS issue. But do you really want to further a group we very well might be battling head to head with on other important issues? Personally, I'll pass.

sent from my typewriter

[Tbar]

Off topic but relative, wolf reintroduction.  Bob Ferris, a yes/no answer?  I could see an argument arising (concerning hoof rot) in the near future regarding wolves.

[idahohuntr]

Idaho..... your posts are confusing and seem to be more about discreding people than anything else.  One only needs to look at your past posts to see your bias towards wolves.  Many times you have referred to other members as Kool-Aid drinkers, idiots, morons, ect.    You bash in one post and agree in others when you oppose another point of view. 

What's your agenda?

t6, I am about responsible management of our wildlife resources and not jumping on to all of the various wdfw bashing bandwagons when they swing through town.  I do not call members idiots, morons etc. as you are claiming.  Maybe kool-aid drinkers for the far out conspiracy folks. 

What you are observing is my opposition to the extremists on all sides that like to push junk science or policy...not some desire to merely try and discredit people.  I think wolves are fine in Washington but they need to be managed.  WDFW needs to be able to use lethal removal as a tool when necessary...not to exterminate wolves as some members advocate, but as a way to manage them in concert with other user groups including hunters, livestock producers, and non-consumptive users.  I am not "pro" or "anti" wolf...I will rail against ridiculous wolf conspiracies in one thread just the same as I will rail against silly petitions to hamstring WDFW's ability to responsibly manage wolves.  Sorry if that makes it hard for you to paint me into a little box for simplicity sake.

I find the desire to attack wdfw on the hoof rot issue unfounded in most instances and do not believe herbicides are the proximate cause of hoof rot. It is clear to me that well meaning hunters are being taken for a ride and promises from various groups that they are interested in protecting elk herds seems disingenous. 

Bottom line, I have no agenda, I represent no group, and my only interest is responsible wildlife management.  I don't just blindly follow any group...we may agree in one thread, but not another.  I call a spade a spade, and I don't shy away from controversial issues.  You will find plenty of company if you want to discredit me or point out that I am an unpopular person on this forum...but I don't swap out my beliefs for what is popular at the moment...believe me, I am not so naive to not realize that supporting the state game department is about one of the most unpopular things one can do in just about any state...but most of the time I find the state agencies are the sportsmens biggest allies.

[Tbar]

Okay not to get off topic or beat around the bush. I will be as direct as possible. Bob Ferris as a scientist please provide insight.  We are all aware of the complexities of treating ailments in free roaming wild populations.  So in your opinion would the introduction of wolves be a suggested treatment of ailing animals?  Would you see wolves as having a positive impact on the southwest region of Washington?  Would you view introduction as creating a  "wild" place or one with more "biodiversity"?
 Thanks in advance for the insight.

[bbarnes]

The big problem is WDFW has no management ability,we all agree on that.Take for example the DIRECTOR,there's no way he can take care of the WDFW.It needs to be divided,between and wildlife and fish.Theres way to much on his plate,with all the issues in the state.The wolf issue should have been looked at in greater detail,by all of us sportsman.Again without being capable of managing what resources we have now,we bring in a predator into our state.Im for everything in moderation and using common sense,logic,science, and data,this state seems to have none of that.They seem to be driven on making dollars ,and exploiting our resource for that dollar.

[kentrek]

Wolves would starve in sw Washington

[Curly]

I agree; WDFW needs to go back to 2 sections.....wildlife and fish.  Or maybe 3 sections......Game, wildlife & fish.

My feeling is WDFW gets a lot of pressure from anti-hunting type groups (pro wolf, anti-hunting, PETA, HSUS type of groups).  Those groups are very well organized and have good funding to be able to sue wdfw, so the dept caves in and goes overboard in the wrong direction as to avoid lawsuits.  The wolf plan is a good example.  The went above what the USFW would have required.......they should have fought for less wolves.

I don't know if the same type of situation exists with WDFW when it comes to hoof rot.  It is possible that they worry about getting sued by the timber industry if they try to push for banning of herbicide use.  I don't know for sure, but that could be part of the equation......... 

[kentrek]

But.....maybe the wolves would get toe rot an then fish an game would finally find a solution to the original problem   

[Curly]

Well, if the hoof disease is what Dr. Mora thinks it is, then wolves would likely get the disease.  There were what, 4 dogs that got the disease and 2 that died?

[pianoman9701]

Wolves would starve in sw Washington

Unfortunately, you're way off. We have the biggest elk herd in the state to feed them and plenty of pets. They've been heard in the Mt. St. Helens Momument and I saw one in the Winston unit three years ago this fall at about 20 yards.