Muzzleloader Regs change/concealed weapon

[Smoke Pole]

Last year's regs said it was illegal to carry or possess a firearm during muzzleloader season that didn't meet the definition of a muzzleloader. You could carry a handgun but it had to be black powder only. That verbiage in not in this year's regs. What it does say is that you can carry a concealed weapon (presumably a modern weapon) if you have a concealed weapon permit. This seems to be a redundancy because RCW 9.41.050 defines who must have a permit to carry a "concealed pistol" and RCW 9.41.060 goes on to say "The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:" ( "Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing or horseback riding...) The fact that the regs do not forbid carrying a modern pistol and the RCW specifically allows it (concealed or otherwise) leads me to wonder why they put the carry permit section in other than it is a repeat of the requirements for archers who can't carry any firearms. Any hunt camp lawyers out there with an opine.

[bobcat]

This issue has been talked about/argued/discussed in at least one thread already. Have you seen this one:  http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php/topic,25105.0.html

[Smoke Pole]

Thanks for the reply but that entire thread is about the archery regs where carrying a firearm is specifically forbidden. All reference to carrying a handgun was removed from the muzzleloader regs which I presume to mean the original RCW is in effect by default. What was added was the redundancy of allowing concealed weapons with a permit, which the RCW already allows. I was wondering if it was an effort to be confusing. I'm no lawyer but I don't read anything in the Muzzleloader regs that would disallow me from carrying a handgun while hunting with a muzzleloader.

[CP]

After rereading the final regs I have to agree with you.  While archery hunters are forbidden to carry and firearm without a CPL, muzzleloader hunters are only forbidden from hunting with a modern firearm.  See below:


a. It is unlawful for any person to carry or
have in his possession any firearm while in
the field archery hunting, during an archery
season specified for that area, except for
modern handguns carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a
concealed pistol license as defined by
RCW 9.41.070. Modern handguns cannot
be used to hunt big game or dispatch
wounded big game during an archery, big
game hunting season.



3. In addition to the above requirements, it is
unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does
not meet the following specifications for a
muzzleloader. As in the past sabots are allowed.
New this year any type of projectile is allowed.
A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070.
Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big
game or dispatch wounded big game during
a big game hunting season for muzzleloading
firearms.

[jackelope]

3. In addition to the above requirements, it is
unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading
hunting season using a firearm which does
not meet the following specifications for a
muzzleloader. As in the past sabots are allowed.
New this year any type of projectile is allowed.
A modern handgun may be carried for personal
protection if that person possesses a concealed
pistol license as defined in RCW 9.41.070.Modern handguns cannot be used to hunt big
game or dispatch wounded big game during
a big game hunting season for muzzleloading
firearms.


are we overthinking things?

[CP]

I don’t think so.  The text in red above is meaningless as it simply states what is already allowed.  The law must be written explicitly to disallow carrying a modern weapon if that is the intent of the reg.  I suspect that words that got written are not what WDFW intended.  None they less the law is what is written, not what they meant to write. 

[KillBilly]

All I see there is that you may carry but in no way are you allowed to use the Modern Handgun to shoot or dispatch an animal while engaged in a ML hunt situation.

I am sure there could and will be situations where a wounded bear (by ML) for example was attacking and had to be dispatched in a self protection action. One better have good evidence...

Same with using it to kill a supposed attacking Cougar....

You get the picture....

[Curly]

Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean that WDFW did not mean to write it that way.

I believe the way it is written is exactly the way they meant it to be.  

[CP]

As it is written it is not illegal to carry any modern weapon, handgun, rifle, shotgun whatever, with or without a CPL.  It is illegal to use that modern weapon in an ML hunt.  It is not illegal use that weapon to shoot a bear, grouse, raccoon, or anything else that is legal to shoot with a modern weapon.  That’s how I read it, and I would bet a good lawyer could convince a judge or jury of that as well.

[jackelope]

I believe the way it is written is exactly the way they meant it to be. 

me too.
i don't get the confusion.

[jackelope]

i'm pretty simple minded though...

[Curly]

I don't really get where you're coming from CP........

Are you saying that you think you can carry a handgun without a CPL?  I think it is very clear in the rules that you are not allowed to open or conceal carry a handgun while ML hunting.

But you also mention that you can carry a modern rifle or shotgun while hunting a muzzleloader season.  I maybe understand this logic......
So, if you are hunting early elk season........you could carry a modern rifle or shotgun just in case you see a grouse or bear to shoot with the modern weapon.  Is that what you're getting at?  I like this logic; but a game warden would ticket you and you would have a hard time proving in court that you were not hunting elk with the modern rifle. 

I've often thought it would be nice to have my wife carry my extra ML for me while hunting and if I need a second shot, I could have her hand it to me.  I mean, it shouldn't be illegal for her to walk around in the woods with a ML as long as she doesn't shoot an animal with it.  But I know that a person is considered guilty unless they can prove otherwise..........

[CP]

I’m just looking at the words in the regulations and taking them just as they read.  I don't see anything in the ML wording that prohibits carrying a handgun without a CPL.  You say that it’s “very clear” but I don’t see it anywhere.  Where is that stated?  I’m not trying to be argumentative, I just don’t see it.

The 2008 wording was clear:
“It is illegal to carry or possess any firearm during muzzleloading seasons which does not meet the following specification for muzzleloader”

The 2009 wording removes that restriction:
“it is unlawful to participate (hunt) in a muzzleloading hunting season using a firearm which does not meet the following specifications for a muzzleloader.”

[Curly]

Jackelope posted the quote from page 62 of the new regs.  It says you have to have a CPL to carry a modern handgun for personal protection.   I'm not seeing what you are..........

[Smoke Pole]

CP makes my point precisely. Verbiage was removed from the regs. That was not an accident. With that done what was restored was the right to carry a handgun for protection (concealed or otherwise) as conferred by the RCW. What I think was an accident was the inclusion of the verbiage from the archery regs requiring a cwp. As for protection from bears and lions, my worry is the clandestine forest farmers who want to protect their crop.