Primer misfire, question for Sabotloader

[jbeaumont21]

Mike, I thought I would put this out in the public forum in case others experienced a similar issue.

I went shooting yesterday and ran into some issues with the caps not going off. The first issue was that the AMPCO nipple would not pop the cap at all.  After looking at the circle impression on the inside of the cap it almost seems like the edges of the nipple are too rounded which doesn't give the hammer a good flat surface to smack against.  Once I put the redhot nipple back on with its flatter surface the primers fired most everytime, however the cap did not snug on tight as usual.  I did have a few caps misfire with the redhot nipple but after disassembling and a quick clean it worked fine so I chalked up as gumming up.  I was using CCI #11 mags and T7 powder by the way.  I am hoping that I don't have a bigger issue with the striker or bolt assembly.  It did seem like maybe the striker could be smacking a little harder.  Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Jesse

[Sabotloader]

Jesse, I can not remember which rifle you are shooting? Help me out...

mike

[jbeaumont21]

It is a Knight Disc Extreme. Today I noticed that the AMPCO nipple is just a few mm shorter then the redhot nipple. You suppose that could be the problem? Wondering if I need to get a longer nipple.

[Sabotloader]

It is a Knight Disc Extreme. Today I noticed that the AMPCO nipple is just a few mm shorter then the redhot nipple. You suppose that could be the problem? Wondering if I need to get a longer nipple.

It certainly could be.... but first I want you try something for me.  Make sure that your secondary safety is turned all the way to the rear.  Then open the bolt and with you your finger on pulling on the trigger close the bolt slowly.  When you have te handle down all the way look at two tings for me... 1. on the rear of the bolt is the hammer or secondary safety all the way again the rear housing or is there  still a few threads showing.  2. Look and see if the firing pin is resting on the top of the nipple or if is away from the top of the nipple?

These two observations will tell me a lot.

[jbeaumont21]

Hey Mike,

I tried a few different things.  I do not have a micro meter but I did try your test and there is definitely some thread showing after the hammer is fully released.  However, it does appear that the hammer is fully resting against the nipple. I tried firing off a cap again with the AMPCO nipple in my garage tonight and nothing happened.  The cap was slightly mushroomed out along the top rim and it took quite a bit of force with a flat screwdriver to get it off nipple.  Then I tried one of your ideas from another thread and unscrewed the breachplug all the way out to where the bolt would just barely close down and tried firing it off again. Sure enough the cap exploded no problem.  Tried it a few more times with the same successful result.  At this point I think I need a longer nipple unless you think it is something else.  I sure would hate to have to buy a new bolt assembly at over $100 bucks.  Do you know if AMPCO makes a longer nipple?

Thanks,
Jesse

[Sabotloader]

Hey Mike,

I tried a few different things.  I do not have a micro meter but I did try your test and there is definitely some thread showing after the hammer is fully released.  However, it does appear that the hammer is fully resting against the nipple. I tried firing off a cap again with the AMPCO nipple in my garage tonight and nothing happened.  The cap was slightly mushroomed out along the top rim and it took quite a bit of force with a flat screwdriver to get it off nipple.  Then I tried one of your ideas from another thread and unscrewed the breachplug all the way out to where the bolt would just barely close down and tried firing it off again. Sure enough the cap exploded no problem.  Tried it a few more times with the same successful result.  At this point I think I need a longer nipple unless you think it is something else.  I sure would hate to have to buy a new bolt assembly at over $100 bucks.  Do you know if AMPCO makes a longer nipple?

AMPCO does not make a longer nipple, so that factor is out.... but I really believe I know what your problem is.  Two things can cause your problem.  When Knight makes the Western Kit they take a breech plug built for a 52 cal Bighorn for use in the Extreme.  In the normal case the breech plug is a little to long for the Extreme, in the Bighorn, length is not critical, any way the grind and polish off a few thousands from the bottom of the breech plug to make it the correct length.  And 90% of the time it works very well.  In you case it is a problem both with the AMPCO and even the Red Hot.

Options... easily fixed oprions by the way...

1. could you with feeler guages measure the distance (space) from the end of the hammer to the top of the nipple.  In your gun I would bet you could use a stock Bighorn BP and everything would work great..

Check your PM's...

It is eaiser for me to talk than it is to type...

mike

[jbeaumont21]

Hey Mike,

I got the breach plugs in the mail today, thanks!  So I tried firing off a couple caps and still no pop.  I screwed the breach plug out about half a turn and bam it went off. I took a couple pictures of the nipples side by side and the breach plugs side by side and it appears as if the new breach plug you sent me isn't quite long enough to make up for the distance lost with the shorter AMPCO nipple (see pics below).  At this point I think I may just have to either use the Knight Redhot nipple or get in the practice of unscrewing the breach plug a half turn.  What are your thoughts?

Jesse

(The brass nipple is the AMPCO and the taller one is the Knight Redhot.   The breach plug with the blue grease is the new longer one you sent me next to the original)

[Sabotloader]

jbeaumont21

Read your post... Got a couple of other thoughts/suggestions - gotta go to work this morning and I will work on it this afternoon

mike

[Exechobo]

Well, I took my new Mountaineer, Western Conversion up to the range, put on a musket cap (only one tin of primers in any store within 70 miles of me), to fire (unloaded), and....click. No ignition. Tried again, again- several times.  Got home, recalled this thread, did a search, and voila!

So I unscrewed the breech plug half a turn. No luck. Whole turn- success! Reliable primer ignition!

I did as suggested by Sabotloader, closing the bolt with trigger depressed, and there are threads showing between the cocking knob and bolt- two full turns worth.

So now I am puzzled. I re-read the thread a few times, and darned if I can find what the solution was?

[Sabotloader]

Well, I took my new Mountaineer, Western Conversion up to the range, put on a musket cap (only one tin of primers in any store within 70 miles of me), to fire (unloaded), and....click. No ignition. Tried again, again- several times.  Got home, recalled this thread, did a search, and voila!

So I unscrewed the breech plug half a turn. No luck. Whole turn- success! Reliable primer ignition!

I did as suggested by Sabotloader, closing the bolt with trigger depressed, and there are threads showing between the cocking knob and bolt- two full turns worth.

So now I am puzzled. I re-read the thread a few times, and darned if I can find what the solution was?

Got the information... I have one concern though, jbeaumont21 did I leave you hanging or did you get the rifle working correctly?  Either way both of you have about the same problem...

The real problem is that the hammer is not extending out of the nose of the bolt far enough to reach the cap mounted on the post.

There are basically two reasons for this...

1. the hammer mechanism is not installed all the way in the bolt housing
2. the modified breech plug has been cut to short for your rifle

I would like to start with the bolt... have either one of you taken your bolt apart and reassembled it before?

Nope wait I need to go take a picture first...

The first thing I would look for is how far out of the face of the bolt is the hammer pin extending.  I just took these pictures to show you a typical extension.





But probably... this is not the problem, especially if there are a couple of threads showing between the secondary safety and the rear of the hammer assembly.

That moves you to the more difficult problem - the breech plug is possibly cut to short for your rifle.

Exechobo Another factor in your case is that the AMPCO nipple is slightly shorter than a factory Knight nipple...

So let me review...

Jesse wrote:

I got the breach plugs in the mail today, thanks!  So I tried firing off a couple caps and still no pop.  I screwed the breach plug out about half a turn and bam it went off. I took a couple pictures of the nipples side by side and the breach plugs side by side and it appears as if the new breach plug you sent me isn't quite long enough to make up for the distance lost with the shorter AMPCO nipple (see pics below).  At this point I think I may just have to either use the Knight Redhot nipple or get in the practice of unscrewing the breach plug a half turn.  What are your thoughts?

Exechobo wrote 

Well, I took my new Mountaineer, Western Conversion up to the range, put on a musket cap (only one tin of primers in any store within 70 miles of me), to fire (unloaded), and....click. No ignition. Tried again, again- several times.  Got home, recalled this thread, did a search, and voila!

So I unscrewed the breech plug half a turn. No luck. Whole turn- success! Reliable primer ignition!

I did as suggested by Sabotloader, closing the bolt with trigger depressed, and there are threads showing between the cocking knob and bolt- two full turns worth.

So now I am puzzled. I re-read the thread a few times, and darned if I can find what the solution was?

I really believe you both have the same problem in that the BP is to short in length.  And because of that you are probably going to have to contact Knight and tell them of your problem.  It will be difficult for them to cut a BP to the length you need without having the rifle and the nipple you want to use.

At this point I do not what suggestion to give either of you other than contacting Knight.  A second option would be to get Knight to send you an un-cut breech plug and have your local gun smith or even a machinist shorten it to the length required by your rifle...

Exechobo in your case since it is a new Mountaineer Knight will probably jump through the hoops to get it fixed for you. I know normally Knight tries to fit each new rifle with the correct BP

Also, just so you all know there is small +/- variance in mass machining of the rifle and one of the places that it shows up more often in is the depth of the BP receptacle in the bore.  Which is not real critical when shooting 209's but much more critical when shooting caps. Then compound that with not all nipples are of the same length.

As a last resort - I could certainly fix it for you both

mike

[Exechobo]

Sabotloader, thank you. You make this forum, and the others you participate in, my beat resource to get up to speed.

I set up the Mountaineer sights similar to your Ultralite. I hope to hunt WA (certain), PA (likely), and NC (hopefully). A coast to coast safari fall, with friends, brother, son(s).  So I gotta get this thing runnin!

[Sabotloader]

Sabotloader, thank you. You make this forum, and the others you participate in, my beat resource to get up to speed.

I set up the Mountaineer sights similar to your Ultralite. I hope to hunt WA (certain), PA (likely), and NC (hopefully). A coast to coast safari fall, with friends, brother, son(s).  So I gotta get this thing runnin!

It really should not be a problem... Where are you located in WA?  OOPs... never mind to far away I see now Olympia... to bad you are not closer to Pullman

Make sure you mention to Knight how far out you turn the BP to get it to hit the caps...

[Exechobo]

Wait, Sabotloader, how did you get those photos of the pin extended from the bolt when out of the gun?

[Sabotloader]

Wait, Sabotloader, how did you get those photos of the pin extended from the bolt when out of the gun?

The easy way is lift the bolt handle and then with your finger pulling the trigger push the bolt handle back down. (make sure that the secondary safety is all the way off.)  This will allow the hammer to move forward in the bolt and you should be able to look in the side of the bolt to see the hammer.

This picture should show how close the face of the bolt the cap should be.. In this picture you can see if the hammer moves out of the bolt face as far as shown in my other picture it is going to hit the cap HARD.
 



The second way is really simple once you master it but the first time it can be a bit tricky/confusing

Remove the bolt from the rifle...

Turn it up side down and look carefully how the hammer assembly is set in the bolt housing.

Locate the hammer striker and note that it is resting in a detent in the bolt housing.

This picture might help...



Next... holding everything in place so it does not move.  Turn the secondary safety in as far as it will go... The next part is a check... Once the secondary safety is all the way in turn the hammer assembly as far as it will got to the right (clockwise) it should go maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 turn farther then stop.  It is important to do this every time you reinstall the hammer assembly.  Then back it up until the strike tip aligns with the detent.  Again make sure the secondary safety is ALL the way in and tight.

For this test, when the striker is aligned turn it left (counter clockwise) slightly then turn the secondary safety back out as far as it will go this will allow the hammer to move forward and drop through the face of the bolt so you can see the hammer protruding out the face of the bolt. You can also align surface 'A' with surface 'B'

Turn the secondary safety back in as far as it will go and re-align the striker and detent or once the safety is all the way in - turn it CCW and remove the whole hammer from the bolt.

Hope this make sense

mike

[Exechobo]

OK, got it. I used the second method, well described!
I hope my picture is attached.

[Exechobo]

I think I read you are a #11 Mag fan.  Whenever I get to the big city, I will buy a supply of each kind of primer I find, to see my pref. for now, all I have is the last tin of Musket caps on the west end. Oh well, small price to pay for living in paradise.

When I go east to PA, I may convert to the 209 system. We'll see.

Your support is well appreciated, many thanks.

[Sabotloader]

OK, got it. I used the second method, well described!
I hope my picture is attached.

It did and that looks exactly like it should... So it really comes down to your Breech Plug...

Knight makes the Western Breech plug from cap breech plug built for the 52 caliber Big Horn...

This is the one... Do not call it a Western BP or you will get the wrong one. You need to one for a 52 cal Big Horn

http://www.knightrifles.com/breech-plug-M900032/

I would say if you want to do it yourself... order one of these and try it as is and see if it might be to tight but hen again if you are coming off a full turn - it might be in the ball park...

[Sabotloader]

I think I read you are a #11 Mag fan.  Whenever I get to the big city, I will buy a supply of each kind of primer I find, to see my pref. for now, all I have is the last tin of Musket caps on the west end. Oh well, small price to pay for living in paradise.

I hugely prefer the #11 Mag and to be more specific the RWS 1075+ caps.  Remington is also now offering a #11 Mag that is suppose to be 40% hotter than their #11 but I have never tried it.  Also make not that I use T7-3f powder because of the really cold temps that I hunt in (below zero) if you are not hunting in these temps 2f will work well.

When I go east to PA, I may convert to the 209 system. We'll see.

Easy conversion!

Your support is well appreciated, many thanks.

Not a problem I am just trying to pay back all those that have helped and continue to help me...

mike

[kerrdog]

Hey Jesse,

If you don't get it working right I'll loan you my NW Explorer.

[jbeaumont21]

My Disc Extreme has been working fine since I fixed my trigger assembly.  The issue I had with Disc when I posted this last year was my breech plug wasn't quite long enough. Sabotloader hooked me up with a slightly longer breech plug and I haven't had any issues since.  Sounds like you may have the same issue. I'm sure you could send your breech plug into Knight or hook up with Sabotloader and he could do the same for you, or you could go with a spacer behind your breech plug to get it closer to the firing pin. Good luck!

[Exechobo]

First, thanks to Sabotloader for his help and instruction. What a guy!

Since he is fresh out of BPs, I'm sending the Mountaineer back to Knight  in Iowa for smithing. They need the whole darn thing, so off it goes. The good news is I can re-anticipate getting my rifle, so like Christmas redux. At least that's what I tell myself.

[kerrdog]

That's harsh.  It's hard enough to wait the first time.  And you're stuck now that you've had that mountaineer in your hands.  It's not like you could be happy with a Traditions or CVA.

All they're going to do to it is put in a new breech plug or nipple.  My Disk Extreme has been 'extremely' reliable at the range.