More gates to keep us out

[Ripper]

I was just sadly informed that the DNR is putting up a gate at my favorite bear hunting spot!  The DNR guy said something to the effect of wanting to preserve Native American berry picking rights or some chit!   :bs:I don't care what the reason, it really F'ing pisses me off! Why do us sportsmen and women always get the short end of the stick? Weather it be because of irresponsible shooters or orvers or dirt bags dumping their trash!  :     I have never witnessed and of the previously mentioned activities in this area other than a couple of mudholes from 4 wheelers, nothing serious. Maybe it is to preserve the berry fields for the natives, although I've never seen anyone picking berries up there. I don't know, I'm just pissed.  Thanks for listening

[sebek556]

anti's goal 1: separate the group into smaller easier to deal with groups. accomplished
goal 2: cause infighting between groups. pretty much accomplished
goal 3: restrict access to areas, this weeds out the old, disabled, injured etc. pretty much accomplished
goal 4: raise prices, simple cannot afford can't play. getting there
goal 5:reduce seasons further. Shorter time, less appealing.
goal 6: shut it down completely. Now that it has dwindled to such smaller, more disperse groups shutting down will be easier with less conflict.

[Special T]

Vote Clint Dider for Lands commissioner! (DNR)

[bobcat]

I'm not surprised.

This might help explain:

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/Publications/em_comm_tribalrelations_order_201029.pdf

[Ripper]

So that means locking out all non natives? How is this going to help heal the rift between tribes and everyone else?
  I know this is probably waaaaayyyy out of line but I don't think has anything to do with berries. years ago I saw bears up there every time I went and last year I saw none. I use to see some giant backtails up there, now I hardly see any deer at all. Now they are locking us out.  Hmmmmmmmmmmm 

[Kioti]

Up in our area my hunting partner and I have had gates closed on us while we were up hunting.  Even had the Ahole drive right by us and smile, then drive down the road and close and lock the gate on us. 
Some real bright bulbs out there.
Lots more gates now then their use to be. 
HAAGL/Hunters Against Ahole Gate Lockers

[CAMPMEAT]

What gets me is, tribal members already have hundreds of thousands of acres to pick berries on. I'm not bashing the tribes, just trying to figure out what our government is trying to do, besides piss off the people that pay their wages. Get rid of these assnine liberals that hold offices that can make such stupid decesions without any public input.....

[shedcrazy]

can't you hike or bike in? Some of the best hunting is behind the gates

[grizzlyadams]

can't you hike or bike in? Some of the best hunting is behind the gates

The gate Ripper is talking about will close off too much land. Almost impossible to hike or bike it and cover the area he wants to be able to cover.

Sorry Ripper    that is a really good spot you have. I've had that happen to a few of my spots in the past but yours is a great area. There needs to be some balance. Some entity that works on our behalf that holds these people accountable. There has to be something we can do. This is happening way to often now!

[Ripper]

I'm glad you got to see that spot before they closed it of Grizzly. Yes I can hike in, I agree there are a lot of great places to hike in. I love to hike in and get away from the crowds, but at 48 and with bad ankles, I can only hike so far. The hell hole I like to hunt is way to steep and nasty for me to pack an animal out of so I carry 600' of rope, a chain and pulley, and use my truck to pull them out. That's after we get them to within 600' of the road! I'm afraid I'll have to find another high country location to hunt in until they gate that area off also. I'd certainly hate to damage the tribes berries or the anti's discover some endangered chipmunk they want to protect.

[FC]

You've heard my opinion on getting an animal out of there. With a rope it's do-able but without I think I would just call a few buddies up that were in as good a shape as I am to come up and hike down, build a fire and just eat it there.

[seth30]

Plenty of members here willing to help pack out a animal.    Hopefully ripper if they gate that area off your new honey hole behind that gate will be better than before.

[Alchase]

If this is public land, could not someone sue for discrimination if one ethnicity is the only one given access to this land behind the gates or the keys to this land?
How was due process followed?

[woodswalker]

can't you hike or bike in? Some of the best hunting is behind the gates

That may be so...but with the condition of the knees these days, my days of hiking in 10 miles, taking game and making multiple 10 mile hikes back out with a heavy pack are over.

More it feel like locking it up and excluding those of us who are getting older and dont have unlimited 'spare time' to spend weeks working into the hills.  You know...those of us with JOBS?

I wrote a grump about it a while back....different place but still applies:  The new Wild Sky Wilderness that has been foisted off on us in actuality meets NOT ONE of the requirements for a WILDERNESS under the federal statutes with which its being promulgated. The lands enclosed in this new playground for the unemployed environmentalists to sign up to take a hike in have been logged, mined, riven with roads, power lines and all manner of other man-made items. They are NOT in the definition of a Wilderness, yet there they are, locked away from access but to the stout of body and expansive of time.

Full grump here: http://woodswalker-daylightintheswamp.blogspot.com/2010/03/kings-forests.html

[Ripper]

I sent off a message to the DNR asking the reason for this gate, but I haven't heard back yet. Probably wont.

[furiouzgeorge]

Terrible. My wife and I have really been toying with the idea of relocating to Alaska. I can't believe the bag limits and species variety they have up there. We're tired of the liberal BS and want a change. But I know that if we don't do something about it here it'll make it's way up there. I say do what all the ORV guys do and get an ATV and find a way around the gate!!! There's gotta be plenty of private land owners bordering your area who you might be able to bargain access from! Just a thought but I don't know anything about your hunting grounds.

I've been interested in putting together a group of hunters who could get together every once in a while, pick a trail-head or logging-road and do some clean up. I've seen plenty in my area that could definitely use it. I figured we could weasel some keys out of timber companies and maybe DNR for our 'volunteer' group. If that volunteer group happened to be composed exclusively of die-hard hunters who all need their own copy of the keys so they could go the extra mile and scout for garbage in the high-country...well then we're just going above and beyond, aren't we?

[logger]

This exactly why I will not buy a discover pass, pay the *censored*s and they still lock it up, vote goldmark out and didier in,  I think there is something else up their sleeve.

[Elkaholic daWg]

 From the Snowmobile Alliance of Western States today

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

I have told you many times over the past few years to work with your local agency personnel on your land-use issues. Well, I am not so sure that is an avenue that will bring results today, due to the fact that the local Districts and Administrative officers are no longer free to make any decisions on their own.  You may need to go to your elected representative to get your land-use issues resolved. But all hope is not gone, yet. We now have a chance to improve our access to public lands and change the direction of the government agencies with a change in leadership. I feel this is the only chance we will have as multiple-use recreational and resource concerned individuals to correct the problem of environmental endangered species directed resource management. We need to change our leadership on both the Federal and State level to protect our access to our public lands and our public resources judging from the condition of our forests.

With that said, I have--as has the BlueRibbon Coalition--informed you about the changes the Federal Government, namely the USDA Forest Service, wants to make with a new RULE. These changes have the look of simple improvements at first glance, but be wary of changes to simplify processes such as using Categorical Exclusions. The Forest Service believes it is appropriate to establish soil and water restoration categorical exclusions based on NEPA implementing regulations at 40 CFR § 1500.4(p) and 1500.5(k), which identify a Categorical Exclusion as a means to reduce paperwork and delays in project implementation. The fact is that the Rule is being written and changed in the inner circles of government agencies without input from the public, expecting the public then to turn the tide of wrong to right after the fact. The Fact is: Categorical Exclusions have no safeguards built into the process, and to allow dam removal under a CE ("remove, replace or modify water control structures to restore flows into natural channels and floodplains") without extensive study and safeguards is nuts!  The same applies to ("restore non-system roads and trails to more natural conditions in order to stabilize habitat") stabilizing the habitat. I thought we were stabilizing the road? They don't do road reclamation with a shovel; they do it with heavy equipment, under contract. Reclaimed roads and trails become Roadless. Brian Hawthorne from BlueRibbon Coalition noted that, "The fact that the agency doesn't want any public involvement means the agency probably doesn't care about any potential recreational uses."

To this point a Chief US. District Judge, Lynn Winmill, has just determined that leaving roads open under the Payette National Forests Travel Management Plan causes erosion and harms fish. This ruling is against Valley County south of McCall, Idaho on the Payette National Forest. The judge said, "The agency review of policy, which effectively closed many roads, adequately considered the history and environmental impact of road usage in the national forest". The Judge went further in saying that, "many roads in the area were user built". Yes they were; with your tax dollars to remove timber. Resource removal roads are built by the timber companies with credits given them on the timber costs. Hence, less dollars for the timber an additional tax on the taxpayer. The intent of leaving these timber haul roads open was for the public to drive and enjoy their national Forests.

Valley County was joined by recreational groups and private citizens in its opposition to the Federal Forest Travel Management Plan, which they contend was implemented without sufficient public process and socioeconomic study. Judge Winmill, however, went on to say that, "given the Forest Service's undisputed findings that designating a limited number of roads would be unrealistically expansive and harm the environment. The agency was not obligated to consider designation of an even greater number of roads. Leaving many roads open was found by the Forest Service to cause erosion, impair the restoration of water quality in streams and adversely affect many fisheries." Now, you know why your forest roads are in such bad shape. Your federal agencies have a legal plan to restrict motorized recreation without public comment. Do you also know that any reclaimed road allows the area to be considered "Roadless?" It then is eligible for Wilderness classification? It makes me very uncomfortable when an agency wins by not doing its job.

As the man said, "are you ready for a change yet?"  Changing the present administration and reducing government is the only way to protect your access to public lands. I suggest if you are not in agreement, go trade in your snowmobile, motorcycle, and ATV on a Harley and hit the highway.

"National Forest are for the use of all the people."
-Gifford Pinchot, 19

[bassquatch]

anti's goal 1: separate the group into smaller easier to deal with groups. accomplished
goal 2: cause infighting between groups. pretty much accomplished
goal 3: restrict access to areas, this weeds out the old, disabled, injured etc. pretty much accomplished
goal 4: raise prices, simple cannot afford can't play. getting there
goal 5:reduce seasons further. Shorter time, less appealing.
goal 6: shut it down completely. Now that it has dwindled to such smaller, more disperse groups shutting down will be easier with less conflict.

Then one late hot August they are shocked to realize just how flammable all that "special land" can be...

[grizzlyadams]

That area is not tribal land, and the berries that grow there....only grow there because our tax dollars went towards the timber credits that help build the roads, that in turn enabled the logging companies to log off that area which allowed the sunlight to hit the forest floor and made the berries grow.

That tribal berry picking excuse was a load of crap. They have another agenda. We need to start with getting rid of the current administration. Then create an and fund an anti-liberal watch group. It's something that will take time and dedication. Just as it did for the liberal groups now encroaching on our rights and our hunting lands. I am all in for helping and contributing time but we have to ban together and get it done, not just talk about it.

[bobcat]

Seems to me like the state is  trying to bend over backwards and do anything to make the indians happy. I don't suppose there's any monetary rewards in it for out politicians, do you? Now that many of the tribes have an almost endless supply of money due to their casinos, fireworks sales, tobacco sales, etc, it only makes sense that they are likely paying off many of the state's politicians.

And yes, I highly doubt they want this area for berry picking. That's just an excuse that sounds good and in their mind is politically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if they really want exclusive access to these state lands so they can have the hunting all to themselves.

[BOWHUNTER45]

What ever happened to a free country ... we no longer have one ...Paul Ryan seems to agree with me too  Where I live they have us locked up like we are in prison ..the elk herds are growing rapidly and it makes me sick I can not hunt them like I used to ...as a matter of fact my brother calls me tonight and was freaking out about 8 elk being by his house ..1 bull and 7 cows  Never as long as I lived here have I seen or heard of an elk being in this area ...I seen a 6x6 last year about 3 miles from where he saw them tonight... and they are in a legal unit ..and they may be in deep trouble soon  unless they put up a gate before Sept.4th 

[Special T]

I thought we went down this raod before with tribes getting keys and locking the rest of us out?

[buckfvr]

Seems to me like the state is  trying to bend over backwards and do anything to make the indians happy. I don't suppose there's any monetary rewards in it for out politicians, do you? Now that many of the tribes have an almost endless supply of money due to their casinos, fireworks sales, tobacco sales, etc, it only makes sense that they are likely paying off many of the state's politicians.

And yes, I highly doubt they want this area for berry picking. That's just an excuse that sounds good and in their mind is politically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if they really want exclusive access to these state lands so they can have the hunting all to themselves.

   

The tribes are not paying off anyone......the only concession they make is they vote enmass for who ever is the most help for them. 

The state bends over backwards becuase they have never settled with the tribes on some very serious entitlements.  FIsh and game IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the sacraficial lamb with the tribes.  This I was told  by persons in the know and at opposite ends of the spectrum from each other, almost word for word, over a year appart.

Thats all Ill say,  believe it or not......from what Ive seen in my time, I tend to believe.

[PlateauNDN]

Seems to me like the state is  trying to bend over backwards and do anything to make the indians happy. I don't suppose there's any monetary rewards in it for out politicians, do you? Now that many of the tribes have an almost endless supply of money due to their casinos, fireworks sales, tobacco sales, etc, it only makes sense that they are likely paying off many of the state's politicians.

And yes, I highly doubt they want this area for berry picking. That's just an excuse that sounds good and in their mind is politically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if they really want exclusive access to these state lands so they can have the hunting all to themselves.

   

The tribes are not paying off anyone......the only concession they make is they vote enmass for who ever is the most help for them. 

The state bends over backwards becuase they have never settled with the tribes on some very serious entitlements.  FIsh and game IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the sacraficial lamb with the tribes.  This I was told  by persons in the know and at opposite ends of the spectrum from each other, almost word for word, over a year appart.

Thats all Ill say,  believe it or not......from what Ive seen in my time, I tend to believe.

pretty much sums it up right there.  The Tribes have way to much to lose to do something very stupid like pay off somebody.  You factor in the loss of many many programs and funding they receive and the majority of them are not willing to risk that just to bribe somebody. 

Huckleberries have become a major business in recent years and the encroachment of commercial pickers and the disregard of the bushes on how they harvest the berries is a serious damage to the plant itself.  I've been to many areas throughout central wa. and to see the many commercial pickers up there basically cutting the whole plant or raking the limbs bear is saddening and upsetting. 

Numerous times i've been up to closed areas of our rez and had 10 to 20 people picking and none of them were Tribal Members.  Reporting it did help scare them off and even at the time I was still an L.E.O. and majority of them ran and left their gear.  I know the Tribe has helped with increasing fields in the Sawtooth areas and various other fields just so EVERYBODY can have a chance at picking berries but, when you rake a tree or threaten verbally and physically it scares some people off.  When I and my family go pick I always carry not because of the fear of wildlife but because some other pickers have made it known to myself or others that when they're there in that field, it's theres and I'm not one to take something like that lightly.

Who knows exactly what's going on and until somebody comes forward we won't know.  The hunting exclusivity excuse is really going over board and down right absurd in my opinion and if that's what some want to say or believe then so be it, it's your 2 cents and you can spend it any way you want.

[Ripper]

In all the years I've been hunting this area I have seen exactly.......zero berry pickers. None, nada, zilch. the only berries I've ever seen picked were by me and my friends as we sat there glassing for bears. Berries are not the reason for the gate. I understand what you're saying Plateau, and agree that commercials can F things up in a hurry, but that's not happening here.

[PlateauNDN]

Maybe, maybe not, who knows for sure.  Unless you plan on setting up shop in there to watch all day everday to see what's exactly going on nobodies going to have any actual proof they did it for the exclusivity of hunting.  I'd like to know why they have done this as well but I'm not going to jump to any conclusions as to why they did it.  When I go to the mountains I rarely see anybody going in or out and I primarily go into the Ceded Areas.  The last 3 trips we went up to the mountains I seen a total of 5 other vehicles up there and they were all non-tribal members camping and doing various other things.  Can I say for certain what they were doing, no, I can't and i'm not going to make assumptions.  They could've been poachers, they could've been resupplying the pot growers, who knows?  But then again, it is easier to just assume and make false claims so why not continue to go with that.

[Skyvalhunter]

The USFS did this same krap up by me. They put a gate up then gave the "Native Americans" a key so they could go pick berries and hunt up there. That is a total bunch of BS!!Make them walk in just like the rest of us!!

[Special T]

Whatever the reasoning is, Some kind of double standard between Wa citizens is BS. If they put loack on gates, they need to be locked for everyone, or left unlocked. 
I didn't even think about the commercial side, isn't it also getting that way sometimes for Mushroom pickers?

[JimmyHoffa]

Don't commercials usually get keys/access to the area when they get a permit through the governing agency?

[Ripper]

I don't care what the reason, or who it's for. All I know is what's been said already, IF THEY PUT UP A GATE THEN NOBODY SHOULD HAVE A KEY! period, no one user group is any more or less important than the other. It's my tax money that pays for these lands, there is NO excuse for locking me out. I'm with you Skyvalhunter, If they put up a gate then the Natives should have to walk in also. I'm sorry Plateau if you think I'm making false accusations about your people, but we see it so often when they take seasons or access away from non natives for the benefit of them. Look at the Puget Sound sturgeon fishery they took away this year. We used to be able to fish year round and keep 1 a day and 5 a year between 36 and 54 inches. Now we can only retain in June and Sep1 to Oct 15. The Natives can fish year round and keep 10 a day any size! They estimate that sport anglers took on average 540 fish a year. How many do you think the natives are taking now? I'm sorry but I'm sick and tired of constantly giving away for the benefit of a few. I don't care who was here first, it's time to adapt and be equal!

[PlateauNDN]

If you don't mind can you provide the area that was gated off?  I spoke with a member of our wildlife dept. and they are unaware of any areas being locked within our Ceded Areas and not aware of anybody getting keys to any locked gates so, it's not us.  I don't know the circumstances and if it's for what you say it is then yes, it's not fair but, I also don't think it is for "exclusive hunting" as has been mentioned.  Just because you haven't seen picking doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I also agree with the walking comment.

The other situations I cannot speak to because I don't know the regs for the Tribes in regards to sturgeon fishing in the Sound.  Until somebody provides facts or details there really is nothing to argue about, it's hearsay and rumors.  There's always going to be issues and somebody is always going to disagree one way or the other so that's really all I have to say. 

[bobcat]

it's not fair but, I also don't think it is for "exclusive hunting" as has been mentioned.

OK, I think it was me who used those words, if you prefer I could change that to "exclusive access," which is what they would have if they have keys to gates and are allowed to drive into the area, in which nobody else can. So, with exclusive access, they also have an area to hunt that nobody else will be hunting. It's just not right, and it sounds like you agree.

It seems there was a similar scenario a year or two ago, where the rumor was a tribe, or tribes, had keys to gates and were allowed to drive into public lands so that they could hunt bears (with bait).

I get really sick of hearing of these things.

[BOWHUNTER45]

All I want is for us to have access to National forests and state Owned lands so we can all enjoy ...We are tax payers and we have the right to enjoy the land we live on ...needing passes to enter land WE own is BS and I have a problem when We the people let them get away with the BS... Something needs to be done now and not later ...look where later has gotten us so far !

[sled]

   We should not assume anything.  We also know that natives have no special rights right?

[FC]

If you don't mind can you provide the area that was gated off?  I spoke with a member of our wildlife dept. and they are unaware of any areas being locked within our Ceded Areas and not aware of anybody getting keys to any locked gates so, it's not us.  I don't know the circumstances and if it's for what you say it is then yes, it's not fair but, I also don't think it is for "exclusive hunting" as has been mentioned.  Just because you haven't seen picking doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I also agree with the walking comment.

The other situations I cannot speak to because I don't know the regs for the Tribes in regards to sturgeon fishing in the Sound.  Until somebody provides facts or details there really is nothing to argue about, it's hearsay and rumors.  There's always going to be issues and somebody is always going to disagree one way or the other so that's really all I have to say.

If you would like I can probably PM you GPS coordinates for the area that has just been gated. I'm not sure if I marked it with my current gps or not, I had it marked prior but had to warranty the unit and lose all of our stored scouting data. Ripper and I both signed on the petition against the current sturgeon fishery in the north sound and both read the final decision on it. The decision made is public record if you care to look it up.

If you want the gps location PM me.

[grizzlyadams]

I think we may all be getting heated over a false reason for closure that was given to us by the FS workers. If I remeber it correctly when we asked for the reason for the closure, the guy said he really didn't know. When we pressed him a bit, he came up with the tribal berry picking excuse. It may be the real reason and it may not be. If it is for tribal concerns and that excuse was an accurate statement then we all have reason to be very upset. No matter what the reason, it just isn't right. We need to do some digging and find out what the reason is for sure, then let our voices be heard loud and clear that we are not going to take these closures lying down anymore.....Period!!!!!

Lets not fight amongst each other. Lets take the fight to the Forest Service and the ones making these decisions!

[bobcat]

grizzly,

Just to avoid confusion, let me point out that this is DNR land (state) and not Forest Service, according to the original post in this thread.

So be sure to contact the Department of Natural Resources about this, and not the U.S. Forest Service.

[Curly]

This exactly why I will not buy a discover pass, pay the *censored*s and they still lock it up, vote goldmark out and didier in,  I think there is something else up their sleeve.

 

[washelkhunter]

Is it a logging sale perhaps and they want to avoid conflicts with the gen'l public. That happens all the time.

[FC]

Is it a logging sale perhaps and they want to avoid conflicts with the gen'l public. That happens all the time.

No the top was logged a few years ago. Grizzly is right too, the guy told us the berry-picking thing in a way that sounded like he was just talking smack.

[Kc_Kracker]

So that means locking out all non natives?

im a hardcore salmon fisherman, welcome to my world 

[washelkhunter]

DNR cant lock you out in favor of someone else. Somethings fishy and you deserve a prompt answer. contact your local rep and sick them on it.

[Ripper]

i just got an Email response from DNR tonight. They said it is not their area or gate. They said it's on USFS land, so I will contact them and see if they will give me an answer. I'm a hard core fisherman also KC, so I should be used to this, but for some reason, it never gets any easier!

[washelkhunter]

This should be interesting. Lock out the taxpayers in favor of those who dont pay taxes.

[bobcat]

This should be interesting. Lock out the taxpayers in favor of those who dont pay taxes.

          

[MatthewHunter98]

it just makes no sence some times
 

[grizzlyadams]

grizzly,

Just to avoid confusion, let me point out that this is DNR land (state) and not Forest Service, according to the original post in this thread.

So be sure to contact the Department of Natural Resources about this, and not the U.S. Forest Service.

Bobcat....No confusion. I was there and it is US Forest Lands. We talked with the USFS workers and they were driving USFS trucks. This decision was made at the federal level, it's not a local or state issue.