More gates to keep us out

[furiouzgeorge]

Terrible. My wife and I have really been toying with the idea of relocating to Alaska. I can't believe the bag limits and species variety they have up there. We're tired of the liberal BS and want a change. But I know that if we don't do something about it here it'll make it's way up there. I say do what all the ORV guys do and get an ATV and find a way around the gate!!! There's gotta be plenty of private land owners bordering your area who you might be able to bargain access from! Just a thought but I don't know anything about your hunting grounds.

I've been interested in putting together a group of hunters who could get together every once in a while, pick a trail-head or logging-road and do some clean up. I've seen plenty in my area that could definitely use it. I figured we could weasel some keys out of timber companies and maybe DNR for our 'volunteer' group. If that volunteer group happened to be composed exclusively of die-hard hunters who all need their own copy of the keys so they could go the extra mile and scout for garbage in the high-country...well then we're just going above and beyond, aren't we?

[logger]

This exactly why I will not buy a discover pass, pay the *censored*s and they still lock it up, vote goldmark out and didier in,  I think there is something else up their sleeve.

[Elkaholic daWg]

 From the Snowmobile Alliance of Western States today

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."
-Thomas Jefferson

I have told you many times over the past few years to work with your local agency personnel on your land-use issues. Well, I am not so sure that is an avenue that will bring results today, due to the fact that the local Districts and Administrative officers are no longer free to make any decisions on their own.  You may need to go to your elected representative to get your land-use issues resolved. But all hope is not gone, yet. We now have a chance to improve our access to public lands and change the direction of the government agencies with a change in leadership. I feel this is the only chance we will have as multiple-use recreational and resource concerned individuals to correct the problem of environmental endangered species directed resource management. We need to change our leadership on both the Federal and State level to protect our access to our public lands and our public resources judging from the condition of our forests.

With that said, I have--as has the BlueRibbon Coalition--informed you about the changes the Federal Government, namely the USDA Forest Service, wants to make with a new RULE. These changes have the look of simple improvements at first glance, but be wary of changes to simplify processes such as using Categorical Exclusions. The Forest Service believes it is appropriate to establish soil and water restoration categorical exclusions based on NEPA implementing regulations at 40 CFR § 1500.4(p) and 1500.5(k), which identify a Categorical Exclusion as a means to reduce paperwork and delays in project implementation. The fact is that the Rule is being written and changed in the inner circles of government agencies without input from the public, expecting the public then to turn the tide of wrong to right after the fact. The Fact is: Categorical Exclusions have no safeguards built into the process, and to allow dam removal under a CE ("remove, replace or modify water control structures to restore flows into natural channels and floodplains") without extensive study and safeguards is nuts!  The same applies to ("restore non-system roads and trails to more natural conditions in order to stabilize habitat") stabilizing the habitat. I thought we were stabilizing the road? They don't do road reclamation with a shovel; they do it with heavy equipment, under contract. Reclaimed roads and trails become Roadless. Brian Hawthorne from BlueRibbon Coalition noted that, "The fact that the agency doesn't want any public involvement means the agency probably doesn't care about any potential recreational uses."

To this point a Chief US. District Judge, Lynn Winmill, has just determined that leaving roads open under the Payette National Forests Travel Management Plan causes erosion and harms fish. This ruling is against Valley County south of McCall, Idaho on the Payette National Forest. The judge said, "The agency review of policy, which effectively closed many roads, adequately considered the history and environmental impact of road usage in the national forest". The Judge went further in saying that, "many roads in the area were user built". Yes they were; with your tax dollars to remove timber. Resource removal roads are built by the timber companies with credits given them on the timber costs. Hence, less dollars for the timber an additional tax on the taxpayer. The intent of leaving these timber haul roads open was for the public to drive and enjoy their national Forests.

Valley County was joined by recreational groups and private citizens in its opposition to the Federal Forest Travel Management Plan, which they contend was implemented without sufficient public process and socioeconomic study. Judge Winmill, however, went on to say that, "given the Forest Service's undisputed findings that designating a limited number of roads would be unrealistically expansive and harm the environment. The agency was not obligated to consider designation of an even greater number of roads. Leaving many roads open was found by the Forest Service to cause erosion, impair the restoration of water quality in streams and adversely affect many fisheries." Now, you know why your forest roads are in such bad shape. Your federal agencies have a legal plan to restrict motorized recreation without public comment. Do you also know that any reclaimed road allows the area to be considered "Roadless?" It then is eligible for Wilderness classification? It makes me very uncomfortable when an agency wins by not doing its job.

As the man said, "are you ready for a change yet?"  Changing the present administration and reducing government is the only way to protect your access to public lands. I suggest if you are not in agreement, go trade in your snowmobile, motorcycle, and ATV on a Harley and hit the highway.

"National Forest are for the use of all the people."
-Gifford Pinchot, 19

[bassquatch]

anti's goal 1: separate the group into smaller easier to deal with groups. accomplished
goal 2: cause infighting between groups. pretty much accomplished
goal 3: restrict access to areas, this weeds out the old, disabled, injured etc. pretty much accomplished
goal 4: raise prices, simple cannot afford can't play. getting there
goal 5:reduce seasons further. Shorter time, less appealing.
goal 6: shut it down completely. Now that it has dwindled to such smaller, more disperse groups shutting down will be easier with less conflict.

Then one late hot August they are shocked to realize just how flammable all that "special land" can be...

[grizzlyadams]

That area is not tribal land, and the berries that grow there....only grow there because our tax dollars went towards the timber credits that help build the roads, that in turn enabled the logging companies to log off that area which allowed the sunlight to hit the forest floor and made the berries grow.

That tribal berry picking excuse was a load of crap. They have another agenda. We need to start with getting rid of the current administration. Then create an and fund an anti-liberal watch group. It's something that will take time and dedication. Just as it did for the liberal groups now encroaching on our rights and our hunting lands. I am all in for helping and contributing time but we have to ban together and get it done, not just talk about it.

[bobcat]

Seems to me like the state is  trying to bend over backwards and do anything to make the indians happy. I don't suppose there's any monetary rewards in it for out politicians, do you? Now that many of the tribes have an almost endless supply of money due to their casinos, fireworks sales, tobacco sales, etc, it only makes sense that they are likely paying off many of the state's politicians.

And yes, I highly doubt they want this area for berry picking. That's just an excuse that sounds good and in their mind is politically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if they really want exclusive access to these state lands so they can have the hunting all to themselves.

[BOWHUNTER45]

What ever happened to a free country ... we no longer have one ...Paul Ryan seems to agree with me too  Where I live they have us locked up like we are in prison ..the elk herds are growing rapidly and it makes me sick I can not hunt them like I used to ...as a matter of fact my brother calls me tonight and was freaking out about 8 elk being by his house ..1 bull and 7 cows  Never as long as I lived here have I seen or heard of an elk being in this area ...I seen a 6x6 last year about 3 miles from where he saw them tonight... and they are in a legal unit ..and they may be in deep trouble soon  unless they put up a gate before Sept.4th 

[Special T]

I thought we went down this raod before with tribes getting keys and locking the rest of us out?

[buckfvr]

Seems to me like the state is  trying to bend over backwards and do anything to make the indians happy. I don't suppose there's any monetary rewards in it for out politicians, do you? Now that many of the tribes have an almost endless supply of money due to their casinos, fireworks sales, tobacco sales, etc, it only makes sense that they are likely paying off many of the state's politicians.

And yes, I highly doubt they want this area for berry picking. That's just an excuse that sounds good and in their mind is politically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if they really want exclusive access to these state lands so they can have the hunting all to themselves.

   

The tribes are not paying off anyone......the only concession they make is they vote enmass for who ever is the most help for them. 

The state bends over backwards becuase they have never settled with the tribes on some very serious entitlements.  FIsh and game IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the sacraficial lamb with the tribes.  This I was told  by persons in the know and at opposite ends of the spectrum from each other, almost word for word, over a year appart.

Thats all Ill say,  believe it or not......from what Ive seen in my time, I tend to believe.

[PlateauNDN]

Seems to me like the state is  trying to bend over backwards and do anything to make the indians happy. I don't suppose there's any monetary rewards in it for out politicians, do you? Now that many of the tribes have an almost endless supply of money due to their casinos, fireworks sales, tobacco sales, etc, it only makes sense that they are likely paying off many of the state's politicians.

And yes, I highly doubt they want this area for berry picking. That's just an excuse that sounds good and in their mind is politically correct. I wouldn't be surprised if they really want exclusive access to these state lands so they can have the hunting all to themselves.

   

The tribes are not paying off anyone......the only concession they make is they vote enmass for who ever is the most help for them. 

The state bends over backwards becuase they have never settled with the tribes on some very serious entitlements.  FIsh and game IS and WILL CONTINUE to be the sacraficial lamb with the tribes.  This I was told  by persons in the know and at opposite ends of the spectrum from each other, almost word for word, over a year appart.

Thats all Ill say,  believe it or not......from what Ive seen in my time, I tend to believe.

pretty much sums it up right there.  The Tribes have way to much to lose to do something very stupid like pay off somebody.  You factor in the loss of many many programs and funding they receive and the majority of them are not willing to risk that just to bribe somebody. 

Huckleberries have become a major business in recent years and the encroachment of commercial pickers and the disregard of the bushes on how they harvest the berries is a serious damage to the plant itself.  I've been to many areas throughout central wa. and to see the many commercial pickers up there basically cutting the whole plant or raking the limbs bear is saddening and upsetting. 

Numerous times i've been up to closed areas of our rez and had 10 to 20 people picking and none of them were Tribal Members.  Reporting it did help scare them off and even at the time I was still an L.E.O. and majority of them ran and left their gear.  I know the Tribe has helped with increasing fields in the Sawtooth areas and various other fields just so EVERYBODY can have a chance at picking berries but, when you rake a tree or threaten verbally and physically it scares some people off.  When I and my family go pick I always carry not because of the fear of wildlife but because some other pickers have made it known to myself or others that when they're there in that field, it's theres and I'm not one to take something like that lightly.

Who knows exactly what's going on and until somebody comes forward we won't know.  The hunting exclusivity excuse is really going over board and down right absurd in my opinion and if that's what some want to say or believe then so be it, it's your 2 cents and you can spend it any way you want.

[Ripper]

In all the years I've been hunting this area I have seen exactly.......zero berry pickers. None, nada, zilch. the only berries I've ever seen picked were by me and my friends as we sat there glassing for bears. Berries are not the reason for the gate. I understand what you're saying Plateau, and agree that commercials can F things up in a hurry, but that's not happening here.

[PlateauNDN]

Maybe, maybe not, who knows for sure.  Unless you plan on setting up shop in there to watch all day everday to see what's exactly going on nobodies going to have any actual proof they did it for the exclusivity of hunting.  I'd like to know why they have done this as well but I'm not going to jump to any conclusions as to why they did it.  When I go to the mountains I rarely see anybody going in or out and I primarily go into the Ceded Areas.  The last 3 trips we went up to the mountains I seen a total of 5 other vehicles up there and they were all non-tribal members camping and doing various other things.  Can I say for certain what they were doing, no, I can't and i'm not going to make assumptions.  They could've been poachers, they could've been resupplying the pot growers, who knows?  But then again, it is easier to just assume and make false claims so why not continue to go with that.

[Skyvalhunter]

The USFS did this same krap up by me. They put a gate up then gave the "Native Americans" a key so they could go pick berries and hunt up there. That is a total bunch of BS!!Make them walk in just like the rest of us!!

[Special T]

Whatever the reasoning is, Some kind of double standard between Wa citizens is BS. If they put loack on gates, they need to be locked for everyone, or left unlocked. 
I didn't even think about the commercial side, isn't it also getting that way sometimes for Mushroom pickers?

[JimmyHoffa]

Don't commercials usually get keys/access to the area when they get a permit through the governing agency?