Trial season starts tomorrow!!!

[jetjockey]

Fall trial season starts tomorrow for my pup.  I'm pretty excited to see how she does as we get close to Nationals.  This year she runs three of the brittany 1 hr All Age Classics (chicken, pheasant, and quail) and then she will run the Dixieland Championship just outside Nashville.  I'll run her in the weekend 30 minute Amateur AA in Nashville, and after that it's the Brittany All Age Nationals in Boonville.

The Classics are great trials and can really give an idea where the dog stands against the best dogs in the country.  The trials are big (usually between 45-75 dogs) and 95% of the dogs that will be at Nationals, will also be at the Classics.  Plus, the Chicken is a true wild bird trial run only on wild chickens and sharp tail in the Sandhills of NE.  It takes a good wild bird dog that runs big in order to place.  The pheasant is a semi wild bird trial since they will release birds if the wild bird populations aren't sufficient.  It's run in Iowa and the dogs have to hunt a combination of edges and objectives.  The last classic is the quail which is held in MO on more traditional east coast trial grounds.  The fields are typically plowed and the dogs have to hunt the edges with only the occasional objective.   All three trials are different and arguably the toughest trials of the year to place in.......   I'm crossing my fingers my pup does well and hopefully manages a placement or two.  She finished in the top 10 in the country last year for the Purina All Age dog of the year points award at only 3 1/2 years old.  She is currently back in the top 10 but there are a lot of points to go since the classics are such big trials.  With all but one of the major Pros attending the classics, placements won't be easy.  The Chicken starts tomorrow and runs through Friday. 52 of the best Brits in the country are entered including the 4th place dog out of 120 at this years AKC All breed Gun Dog Nationals.  I'm crossing my fingers for a productive season.

[wildweeds]

Never could get my head wrapped around trialing in during times of hunting season,won't ever send a dog trialing in the fall again,got the dog for my enjoyment,blue ribbions are all fine and dandy but........................... hunting is better.I've got a passell of young dogs that could run puppy/derby.............. ain't doing it, the first/second hunting season is more important for all around development IMO.I've met a whole bunch of FT dogs that ain't never seen or had shot for them wild birds.One of them is a NFC whose handler "Takes" the dog to his birds,the dog is NOT a birddogGood luck in your endeavor!

[jetjockey]

Look Wild.  I get it.  You don't like trials because you got into trialing hoping people would want to breed to your dog, but they didn't.  You don't like Brits because you seem to think they arent any good.  Yet, from your Field Trial Database link, and your record at the AKC GD Nationals, you've had a tough time beating them.  You seem to think all Brit trials are closed, yet they aren't.  You also seem to think there is a "Brittany palooza" in Texas in December that boosts their standings in some sort of dog the year award, yet the ABC doesn't hold any trials in Texas in December. You seem to think most trial dogs don't know anything about wild birds, yet nearly all he Brittany Pro's I know of train mostly on wild birds.  You were afraid of running your dog as an amateur, so you seem to think hunting is much better in the fall.  I get it.......   But I don't have your issues.  So please, do us all a favor and just put me on your ignore list.  Nobody wants to hear you and Happy try and dispute every post I make.

[wildweeds]

Whoa there fella,wasn't chipping at you,Don't worry I won't respond to anymore of your posts,I was not afraid to run my dog as an amateur either, did not have the money to take that much time off of work.My dog ran at the GD Nat exactly twice,the one time he was the ONLY DOG to point the wild birds on course that caused a bunch to be on the rope,he pointed them,watched them wild flush,had the gun shot for him then slipped the collar and went in an opposite direction  of the flush to hunt for singles.I did not get into trialing to get " Stud Fees" either, I was disillusioned as that FT was an educated effort to "Better" Breeds........................ it is NOT,Don't worry you'll figure it out,I saw many a dog OTHER than my OWN that were NOT bred to that SHOULD have BEEN,Look up Joe's Little Rowdy,Jaydogs Wonderboy,Phantom Flyer,Frontiers Late Arrival.............................. Those are the one's I KNOW are in the database.BlueMoon on here had some really NICE pointers that were not bred AS WELL, Clyde was a ROCKSTAR!!!!!

 


Since your so good at finding facts on the net.................................. where was this photo taken?


Don't worry as a departed man I'd call my friend who trained/handled,judged more CH's than you and I could ever own/develop/pay to campaign would say " I AIN'T got enough life left in me to argue with a fellow like you" (he never worded anything that nice however)
 I'm outta here and  wish you the best, I was just reffering to the trialing during hunting season.

[Happy Gilmore]

LOL....I love it when people think about me....

I just got home from running a national field trial with my own dog. I'll be going hunting further east than Wa with the dogs in my truck as soon as I fly all the puppies to their new homes....

[jetjockey]

And if you knew about how the Brittany circuit worked, youd know that in order to have any shot at the dog I'd the year award you run in the fall.  In order to have any shot at Nationals that are held every year the week after Thanksgiving, you run in the fall.  And you'd also know that a majority of the dogs in the Midwest and East all get trained on wild birds.  And yes, we do have true wild bird trials.  In order to compete in those trials, a dog better have lots of wild bird experience.  And that's why all of the big name Brit Pros (except the one west coast pro who i assume you know, I dont know where he trains, but he typically doesnt attend the midwest trials)summer in the prairies, or have wild birds where they train.  Hell, a couple of them from Kansas  ask ally only train on wild birds, yet they still spend time in the Dakotas to change up the scenery.  Our nationals isn't like the ESAA nationals that gets 15-25 entry's.  Our AA nationals typically has 60-80 entry's , and our GD Nationals typically has 40-50 entry's.  Hell In 2000 there were 100 entry's just for the GD Nations alone, plus another 93 entry's for the AA Nationals.  Our breed Nationals gets more entry's than the AKC nationals. Why?  So people can compete against other Brittany's in order to find the bed dogs, that hopefully lead to the best breedings to further he breed.  I don't know what happens in the AKC ES world.  What I do know is that down here in the south, for the most part, AF ES and Pointer people aren't going to breed to an AKC ES or pointer.  And as far as I know, the AF ES and Pointer world is a heck of a lot bigger than the AKC ES and Pointer world. If you want people to breed to your dog, you better prove to people your dog has something that they want, and prove it against the best dogs of that breed.   It's no different in the Brittany world either.  GDs don't get nearly the draw that the AA dogs do for breeding, and there is some really nice GD's out there.  Hell, there is some really nice AA dogs who won't get bred because they don't have what people are looking for.   Buddy was probably the most bred dog in the history of any breed.  He was an amazing dog, yet you will find very little of his prodigy in Brits running the AA circuit.  Why?  Because people know what he throws and what his good, and bad traits are.  You don't see AKC horseback Brit people jumping on that breeding bandwagon. 

IM sorry that you got turned off on trialing because it turned out to be something different than you expected.   I enjoy trialing just as much as I enjoy hunting, and sometimes more.  It doesn't matter to me if I pull the trigger at the end of a find or not.  I will still kill well over 100 birds over my dog while I have her home in December and January.  And that's plenty because I have a hell of a time eating that many birds. But make no mistake about it, when I breed her hopefully next spring, I will be breeding to try and improve on her, and to improve the breed.  And we know what we are looking for in the breeding based on what has been observed in trials, training, and other breedings. It also doesn't hurt that I could breed her 3-4 times and still have every puppy spoken for........   It's a huge compliment when an all breed pro from another part of the country, a pro who has won the ESAA Nationals, comes up to you after judging your dog in a one hour AF/AKC championship and says that he wants every single puppy he an possibly get out of your dog. 

So Wild, I'm gonna have to disagree with you when you say trialing isn't about bettering the breeds.  It's not the only reason to trial, but it's the big one.  At least from what I've seen.

[Happy Gilmore]

101 entries at the National I just ran.

[jetjockey]

What's your point?  The AF nationals usually only has about 40 dogs.  But good luck qualifying for it.

[Happy Gilmore]

What's your point?  The AF nationals usually only has about 40 dogs.  But good luck qualifying for it.

I'd expect to qualify for it if my dog was with a Pro trainer on wild birds all year long.

[jetjockey]

And comments like that are why I know you know absolutely nothing about pointing breed field trials, especially AF trials which you knew nothing about until a short time ago when I schooled you about AF vs AKC.

Tell you what.  Go grab a pointer or setter and go qualify for Ames.  You make it in, I'll pay for your entry fee to Nationals. There's roughly 70 qualifying trials and you only need two placements.   Should be easy right?

[Happy Gilmore]

And comments like that are why I know you know absolutely nothing about pointing breed field trials, especially AF trials which you knew nothing about until a short time ago when I schooled you about AF vs AKC.

Tell you what.  Go grab a pointer or setter and go qualify for Ames.  You make it in, I'll pay for your entry fee to Nationals. There's roughly 70 qualifying trials and you only need two placements.   Should be easy right?

what is wrong with expecting your Professional trainer to produce results and win? Isn't that why you pay the money if you aren't taking the dog hunting?

[jetjockey]

Like I said. Come show everyone how easy it is to get a dog qualified for the AF Nationals at Ames.  Guys spend hundreds of thousands of dollars breeding, training, rebreading, and trialing just to hopefully get that one dog who can qualify, let alone win it. I remember in the fall when you argued with me about Field Champions and how easy or hard it was to put an FC on a dog.  If you think putting an FC on a dog is hard, you have absolutely no idea what it takes to qualify at Ames.  Hell, once qualified, less than half the dogs that run even make it around the entire 3 hour course.  Let alone win it, and there is no second place.  They only crown a winner.  Hell, for that matter grab someone with a Brit and come show us all how easy it is to place in one of the AA classics.  Should be easy right?  All it takes is a dog on a Pro's string with some wild bird experience.

[Happy Gilmore]

Like I said. Come show everyone how easy it is to get a dog qualified for the AF Nationals at Ames.  Guys spend hundreds of thousands of dollars breeding, training, rebreading, and trialing just to hopefully get that one dog who can qualify, let alone win it. I remember in the fall when you argued with me about Field Champions and how easy or hard it was to put an FC on a dog.  If you think putting an FC on a dog is hard, you have absolutely no idea what it takes to qualify at Ames.  Hell, once qualified, less than half the dogs that run even make it around the entire 3 hour course.  Let alone win it, and there is no second place.  They only crown a winner.  Hell, for that matter grab someone with a Brit and come show us all how easy it is to place in one of the AA classics.  Should be easy right?  All it takes is a dog on a Pro's string with some wild bird experience.

You didn't answer the simple question: Why is it wrong to expect to win or qualify if you've dedicated your dog to being a "Competitor"? That is the only reason to keep a dog with a Pro and run trials no matter what the venue.

[jetjockey]

Your absolutely correct...... Wild has a Setter that he is proud of. I'm sure it's FDSB registered. He had it with a Pro for a while and seems to think its a pretty good wild bird dog.   Should be easy to place 1st or 2nd twice to get qualified right? 
 
You don't get it Happy.  All Age dogs don't grow on trees.  It's one thing to expect or hope for good results.  It's another thing to expect to win.  The weekend trials like the one you went to are typically no indication whatsoever of what it takes to win at he top level.  Sure, any half way decent dog should be able to achieve a FC at weekend trials.  It's totally different to expect to win at a National Caliber Championship.  A trial with 50-70 dogs who all qualified to be there, have all spent months training on wild birds, and most all are with Pros that come from all over the country to be there. You've been to 1 single weekend trial.  You've never been to a championship that takes a week to run.  A trial where every single dog can win on any single day.  You have no idea what it takes to be competitive at that level with pointing dogs.  And trust me, it's a heck of a lot easier to win one of those trials in the AKC world than it is to qualify for the AF Nationals......   

[Happy Gilmore]

I do understand. Probably a lot better than you do. If you have the dog on the circuit and it isn't winning in a reasonable amount of time = Time to wash it out, take it hunting and have fun.

If you're field trialing, paying pro's, why waste the money on a dog who isn't competitive?

[jetjockey]

Now you have to define competitive.  And that's what you don't seem to understand.  Is competitive a dog who competes in 30 minute weekend GD trials against weekend warriors and occasionally gets a placement, or is it a Gun Dog that competes in weekend trials and also has what it takes to compete in 1 hr GD championships.  How about a weekend AA Dog?  How about a true All Age championship caliber 1+ hour dog?  How about an AKC AA dog vs an AF AA dog?  Any one of the above dogs could be an FC, yet thy are all very different dogs.  Theres Field Champions, and then there's Field Champions......   And then theres American Field Champions.  Do you know the difference Happy?

[Happy Gilmore]

Honestly, speaking for WIld and I, it's pretty fun to get you all wound up

[jetjockey]

You honestly don't get my riled up.  I love hearing you make stupid remarks about trials that you know nothing about.  How many pointing dog trials have you been to again?   Didn't you say it was one?  One entire trial?  Wow.  Your a Pro!  Did you ever figure out the difference between AKC and AF?  ........That one was hilarious.  Btw...  I'm still waiting for Wild to explain this "Brittany palooza" thing he's mentioned several times.   Something's tells me im going to be waiting awhile! 

[Dhoey07]

100 wild birds in a month and a half 

[jetjockey]

I live in GA, quail season runs from Nov 12-Feb 29.  Daily limit of 12 birds.  Thats why I laughed at Wild's comment, because he has no idea about bird hunting and season dates in the south.  With that said, I will do a couple released bird hunts..... 

JUst an FYI.  We also have a 12 deer limit for our deer season as well.  Season starts around Sept 1st and runs through January 15th.  You can hunt Bow, muzzle, and Modern without having to chose.   Hell, we need to kill more of the dam things. Come on down, an out of state license is only $50 I think.  You can kill all the deer you want in my neighborhood.  Things work a little different down here.  :-)

[Happy Gilmore]

I've only been to one AKC trial. I do retrievers in case you forget. And yes, there was an AF event held at my house not to long ago. I think they had 8 dogs run it? I saw some horses pull in and park in the back field. THey were gone by the time I ate lunch and I had other things on the burner.

Why would I care about AF when the events here are so un-attended? The AKC field trial in Sunnyside had at least 100 dogs entered.

[GrousePointer]

Really wish there was something akin to Coverdog trials out here.

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[jetjockey]

Really wish there was something akin to Coverdog trials out here.

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Now your really gonna mess Happy up.  We're still tryin to teach him the difference between Gun Dogs, Shooting Dogs, All Age Dogs, and the difference between weekend trials and championships, and the difference between AKC and AF.............. 
Then you have to go throw cover dog trials in the equation!  ;-).    That's one venue I haven't seen but would love to.  There's a couple up in PA near where we pheasant hunt every year.  Or those typically AF or AKC sanctioned?

[wildweeds]

There sure as well could be,just need to start a "club" download the rulebook,secure some grounds that sports a decent population of unhunted/lightly hunted birds,lay out some courses to get 30 minute qualifier weekend trials ran on,expand on those courses to allow for a 1 hour course,start a 1 hour classic trial and in 5 years of running classics you can hold a CH title trial.Your vision could very well become reality,the walking trial stakes are becoming pretty popular again as they are cheaper to endeavor in because of the high costs associated with horses and getting them from point A to point B.It would be a huge project  to take on and get going.

Really wish there was something akin to Coverdog trials out here.

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[jetjockey]

I don't think there is anywhere in the PNW that holds the numbers of grouse required to run cover dog trials.  And typically, I think cover dog trials are ran on only wild birds.  It's primarily and upper Midwest and upper east coast game. But then again like I said, I don't know much about them, or even who sanctions them.   Hopefully Grouse pointer will fill us in.

[GrousePointer]

I'm by no means a field trial expert. I just hunted over some friends' dogs in Michigan that were coverdog Pointers and really liked what I saw.

What I can say is the events are run on ruffed grouse and woodcock and if my memory is serving me correctly I believe they are AF sanctioned trials. The only horses in sight at the events are the ones the judges ride.The game is really more about style and how the dog reads cover, or rather application. It is possible for a dog to come up with no birds and win in other words. Sometimes there are no birds to point.

Horseback blood is not uncommon in the dogs, but they're trained to handle as foot hunting dogs in the woods. As an example, HiFive's Rock Solid is out of Elhew Sinbad, a dog that has made some appearances at Ames.

If that game existed out here I'd consider getting into it with a dog (not with my current string however).

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[jetjockey]

Thanks Grouse.  That's about what I remember. The AF designation makes sense now as well.  I talked to a guy in PA who had a llewellin and ran cover dog trials.  Makes sense since Llewellen's aren't recognized by AKC.  I also remember him being a hard core wild grouse guy and thought he mentioned something about the trials only being run on wild birds.  It would never work back home in WA.  I have a standing offer through my father in law to hunt the UP for grouse.  He has a buddy who knows of some great public land, but if I went up there and told anyone about it I'd get shot.  Thing is, I'm pretty sure his buddy wasn't kidding.  You grouse guys are probably the hardest core upland hunters there is.  If I can ever make time, I'm gonna do it. 

[wildweeds]

LLews are nothing special they are an English setter and if you have a llew it can be registered in the AKC as what it is....................English setter.

Thanks Grouse.  That's about what I remember. The AF designation makes sense now as well.  I talked to a guy in PA who had a llewellin and ran cover dog trials.  Makes sense since Llewellen's aren't recognized by AKC.  I also remember him being a hard core wild grouse guy and thought he mentioned something about the trials only being run on wild birds.  It would never work back home in WA.  I have a standing offer through my father in law to hunt the UP for grouse.  He has a buddy who knows of some great public land, but if I went up there and told anyone about it I'd get shot.  Thing is, I'm pretty sure his buddy wasn't kidding.  You grouse guys are probably the hardest core upland hunters there is.  If I can ever make time, I'm gonna do it.

[jetjockey]

I'm well aware of that, my father in laws Llew is probably sitting under his desk right now.  But the AKC doesn't recognize the Llewellin strain, FDSB does.  Besides, what's the point of registering a setter with AKC anyways when the real setters run AF?

[wildweeds]

Beats me.I myself would never have a llew................. to much inbreeding ,100 years of brother/sister breeding nets lots of junk.

I'm well aware of that, my father in laws Llew is probably sitting under his desk right now.  But the AKC doesn't recognize the Llewellin strain, FDSB does.  Besides, what's the point of registering a setter with AKC anyways when the real setters run AF?

[jetjockey]

You didn't get it.  I said why would you AKC register any setter, especially the English setters?  What's the point, would it be to win the huge AKC Setter National with a total of 20 dogs?  If I had a setter I would run it in AF where the real setters run.

[GrousePointer]

Most of the serious coverdog guys running setters in Michigan (that I know of) aren't running Llewellins. They don't have enough run/range.The big difference between the Northwest is topography and access to public forest land. Michigan is swimming in state and national forest which makes such events possible. Before I moved our there I had always thought of grouse as birds you sniped with a .22. Out there people will call you unethical and worse for that. Grouse are for dog work our there. It really is a culture.

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[jetjockey]

I'm aware of the Grouse.  The guy I talked to however did run Llew's, and since they are not typically AKC Registered, it made sense that most cover dog trials would be AF sanctioned rather than AKC sanctioned.  If I remember he ran mostly in PA, and I don't even know if he was competitive.  It was just a conversation we had since he ran coverdog and my dog runs HB trials.

My FIL's Llewellin is his house dog and hunting buddy. He specifically wanted a close working slow and methodical dog that would be used only for hunting.

[GrousePointer]

My FIL's Llewellin is his house dog and hunting buddy. He specifically wanted a close working slow and methodical dog that would be used only for hunting.

I understand your FIL's thinking. I bought my last Pointer from a breeding that is closer working for those areas you just don't want a big runner.

Funny thing is, i find myself going back to my runners more often than not. I shoot more birds over them and I think I like the thrill more than I admit.

Nothing better than a hot blooded Pointer that you can control and hunt anywhere...that knows how to adjust to terrain and cover.

Once I get unpacked here we'll see how well that plays in WA.

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[jetjockey]

I don't think that's uncommon.  I think some people are afraid of bigger running dogs.  Garmins have made hunting with big running dogs a lot less stressful.  I spend a lot of time in the NE and upper midwest.  I used to date a girl in Claire MI and I've spent time in Ironwood and Iron Mountain.  I don't know how a hard core grouse guy could hunt with a big ranging dog without some sort of bell or a garmin.  The type of cover you guys hunt is rediculous.  Gentlemanly bob cover spoils us, but I would love to hunt grouse.  I'm just going to make sure I wear body armor and bring a gun I'm not afraid to abuse.

[jetjockey]

Got another crappy draw.  Oh we'll, that's trialing.  Drew a mid to late afternoon brace with winds gusting to 40 and temps in the upper 70's.   No dogs found birds the day my pup ran.  Two more days to run, but my pup is out of it.  Winds and temps were forecast to be by far the worst the day my pup ran.  Bad draws happen, but at the end of the day, the best dogs rise to the top eventually.  Next big trial starts Monday.

[Stilly bay]

I think a variation of coverdog would be more than possible in washington. it would be a lot tougher on the wet side since birds are fewer and farther between  and the brush is ten times more dense, but it would really separate a lot wheat from chaff and end a lot of arguments.

get permission to run it on weyerhauser land where you have thousands of acres and a decent road system for judges to negotiate.

it would be one hell of a party, and whoever won would be entitled to some serious bragging rights. only problem I can see is lack of participants because of many of the western grouse misconceptions rolling around  AND you would lose a few dogs.

really it sounds like a blast, have an hour run and the dog has to find a needle in a haystack, when he does find that needle it should hold pretty tight kinda like a pen raised trial bird - BUT with the possibility for something truly interesting to happen while the dog is holding it... unlike a pen raised quail or chukar.

count me in, I am puppy shopping right now!

[GrousePointer]

Pretty typical early season cover in Michigan with a very nice coverdog Pointer on point.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=DA1Ae5GJfJQ

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[GrousePointer]

Same dog training on quail in Kansas.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5_ehfXZlWHA

As you can see the dog isn't working very far out and has adjusted to what the handler wants. I've hunted over this dog and seen him top 800 yards in other situations.

When in the woods with a dog like that you learn to toss the whistle in the trash and learn what "singing" to a dog in the woods is about.

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[Stilly bay]

hmm couldn't get either video to work   

[GrousePointer]

hmm couldn't get either video to work   

Stupid mobile links. Try this...

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[Dhoey07]

Got another crappy draw.  Oh we'll, that's trialing.  Drew a mid to late afternoon brace with winds gusting to 40 and temps in the upper 70's.   No dogs found birds the day my pup ran.  Two more days to run, but my pup is out of it.  Winds and temps were forecast to be by far the worst the day my pup ran.  Bad draws happen, but at the end of the day, the best dogs rise to the top eventually.  Next big trial starts Monday.

So do you run your dog or does a trainer?

[jetjockey]

Both.  I run her in the occasional weekend AAA trial and he runs her in 90% of the other trials. Typically, she doesn't run weekend trials, so it makes it tough for me to get enough time off to run her in the Open trials during the week.  Plus she runs all over the Midwest and east coast, so getting to the trials can be tough.  The "circuit" is a little different out here since there are more breed Pros, and championships, than in the NW.  In the Chicken Championship last week, there were 52 dogs entered.  All but 2 were handled by Pro's. 

[jetjockey]

What a difference not having a chitty draw makes.  But I'll let my dog do the talking. ;-)